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Hating the whole Fleet KDF thing

royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Klingon Discussion
So someone explain to me why there is a Norgh, and a "Norgh refit" (a.k.a. the Ning'tao), and a Fleet Norgh which can use the Ning'tao skin, but there's no Norgh retrofit, so there's no discount available for the fleet Norgh. :P

And yeah, I know, devs hate KDF, etc, etc. Not really what I'm after. ;)
Post edited by Unknown User on
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax

Comments

  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So someone explain to me why there is a Norgh, and a "Norgh refit" (a.k.a. the Ning'tao), and a Fleet Norgh which can use the Ning'tao skin, but there's no Norgh retrofit, so there's no discount available for the fleet Norgh.

    And yeah, I know, devs hate KDF, etc, etc. Not really what I'm after.

    That is a long-standing issue with the way ship offerings are done in STO, and it's not confined to the Fleet Norgh.

    Partly it's that they simply don't make as many ships for the KDF, meaning they left gaps in the lineup. Partly it's that they stuffed the T5-9 versions of many ships into the Fleets for 200K Fleet Marks (Maybe because they couldn't think of or implement a console to put in them? Maybe because they were trying to give more free ship options to the KDF and didn't consider the consequences? Maybe because... Iconians?). Partly it's that they created a large portion of the Fleet ships out of lower tier (T1-4) ships because of the previous problems (or for no apparent reason, as in the case of the T5-9 Marauder FDC matched by a T5-10 Fleet Corsair FDC). The bottom line is that for many ships you will pay more because you won't have a Fleet Ship Module discount available.

    They may or may not hate the KDF, but the imbalanced ship offerings do have an effect. Which is worse at T6 since Starship Traits are single-character unlocks... and the Federation has 3x the number of T6 ships available in the C-Store. Just wait until T6-11 Fleet ships come around. :mad::rolleyes::P

    You did already answer yourself, though...

    And yes, I deleted the smileys from you quote so I could use more of my own. :D
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  • royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    That is a long-standing issue with the way ship offerings are done in STO, and it's not confined to the Fleet Norgh.
    Aye, I'd noticed this in passing but I've never really wanted to do the Fleet ship thing up until now so I hadn't paid a ton of attention.
    Partly it's that they stuffed the T5-9 versions of many ships into the Fleets for 200K Fleet Marks ...
    I had seen those here and there. Unfortunately there is not a Norgh to my knowledge. If there were, I have enough fleet credits to buy one (if that'd even help anyway).
    You did already answer yourself, though...

    And yes, I deleted the smileys from you quote so I could use more of my own.
    Not a problem, just griping anyways. :P
    "You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
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  • hfmuddhfmudd Member Posts: 879 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I got caught by this myself yesterday - wanted to upgrade my old reliable Qin to a Fleet Qin,, and then make it T5-U... but for the price of those four modules, plus an upgrade token, I might as well (and did) just spend an extra fiver for a full T6 Mat'ha. :rolleyes:
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  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,944 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    hfmudd wrote: »
    I got caught by this myself yesterday - wanted to upgrade my old reliable Qin to a Fleet Qin,, and then make it T5-U... but for the price of those four modules, plus an upgrade token, I might as well (and did) just spend an extra fiver for a full T6 Mat'ha. :rolleyes:

    If you're a raptor fan, or even if you're not - get the Mat'Ha. Trust me, unless you're totally in love with the Qin's design the difference in quality and performance is the size of a solar system. The Mat'Ha is probably one of the best ships in the game currently, I can't see myself leving mine - the ship is pure epic Klingon awesomness.
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    the fleet norgh has always been kind of left out in the cold. With only 3 tac consoles, it was not as good at damage as the mirror BOP. Its claim to fame, the better officer layout, could allow you to make it a "science" BOP or something else creative, but there again 3 consoles was very limiting --- it really excelled at nothing, and as a fleet ship that was DOWN a full console it was not viable for *anything* really (for the price to obtain it).

    The t5U for it finally gave it enough "stuff" to change it from a "generic, jack of all" to a "dps focused" ship that actually performs well --- except now it is outdated so that is only useful to people who already owned one.

    So the ship finally comes into its own as it becomes obsolete. GG cryptic, again.

    It is not the only ship that was poorly thought out, but it was one of the worst. While it is pretty strong now, I highly advise you save your money. If you want a dps BOP wait for a t6.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Excuse me? PRE-upgrade, I've run both Hoh'sus (the 4 tac BoP) and the Flt. Norgh-on the same TAC toon, side by side.

    I generally got better perfomance out of the Norgh in terms of getting the guns on target and getting kills...even before Raider Flanking.

    The extra console from upgrade is nice...but I ran through the first half of Delta with one (NOrgh, that is) that was NOT upgraded. it was hardly "Non Viable" even two years ago when it was introduced.

    If you think I'm bull****ting you, I'm not the only bull****ter who didn't find the Flt. Norgh 'crippled' back when we had lots of content (and not just Infected followed by revamped Crystalline, rinse and repeat grind) and active ques-including ques for that now-pretty-much-dead activity known as PvP.

    I point you, to Youtube, search terms "Thissler" and "Marmot Mk II".

    And pre DR I ran the norgh & mirror side by side and the mirror produced more DPS consistently. I do not have the Hoh'sus or fleet b'rel (do have the c-store b'rel). Of those the mirror won consistently. And its not just the tac console, they gave the norgh a full DPS passives unlock on upgrade too. The combined effect was very significant --- but now it is pitted against the maha raptor... and it can't keep up with that. The maha wins. IFF my norgh could flank 100% of the time, it would be *close* on that, but that is not realistic, at best I flank maybe 25% of the time on trash and 75% or more on a cube etc.

    Guns on target is pretty consistent across all these -- I can keep a fairly slow ship on NPC targets and none of these are slow.

    And it was not crippled -- I flew it a lot as well and did OK. But it was also, for the cost, not even in the neighborhood of many other fleet ships. The extra officer skill does not make up for the missing console. Compare it to a scimitar**... in price and performance. Or a maha. Get back to me on the price to value ratio. Its a $27.50 price tag for the upgraded ship. Maha is 30, scim upgraded is 32.50.

    ** not technically a fleet ship but with fleet ship stats direct from store.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,587 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    hfmudd wrote: »
    I got caught by this myself yesterday - wanted to upgrade my old reliable Qin to a Fleet Qin,, and then make it T5-U... but for the price of those four modules, plus an upgrade token, I might as well (and did) just spend an extra fiver for a full T6 Mat'ha. :rolleyes:

    Ya, have that same problem. Bought the Mat'ha and the fsm/upgrade chit. The Mat'ha hits harder than the Qin and isn't as soft but it's got less crew and is almost unarmed from the rear.

    Save yourself the headaches- get a mirror qin off the exchange and if you're still wanting to upgrade get the Mat'ha.

    To the rest- I still have my Norgh, it's one of the best looking raptors we have but I wouldn't expect anything from cryptic to make it an endgame ship- they already discounted any argument from the KDF playerbase regarding discount fleet upgrades as 'it ain't gonna happen, the playerbase is too small'.
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  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    Ya, have that same problem. Bought the Mat'ha and the fsm/upgrade chit. The Mat'ha hits harder than the Qin and isn't as soft but it's got less crew and is almost unarmed from the rear.

    Save yourself the headaches- get a mirror qin off the exchange and if you're still wanting to upgrade get the Mat'ha.

    you do know that less crew is a positive thing, right?

    the mirror BOP is fine too if that style is preferred. But you can't upgrade them... useless after about level 55 (which seems to be when the mobs grow up to the current difficulty).
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,587 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    noroblad wrote: »
    you do know that less crew is a positive thing, right?

    the mirror BOP is fine too if that style is preferred. But you can't upgrade them... useless after about level 55 (which seems to be when the mobs grow up to the current difficulty).

    Since when is less crew good ?
    the less crew you have the less repairs get done, the less the weapons fire, the less sustained damage you can take.

    You gotta be trolling me.
    :P
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
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    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Wow, my thread has esploded...

    At the risk of being tarred and feathered (does anything with feathers live on Qo'nos?) I'll admit that my KDF is not my main character. I'm not in it for endgame superiority or PvP notoriety. I just want a BoP with the alternative style of the Ning'tao (or the Hegh'ta, which I also like) that I can use without being outclassed, and I hate the thought of forking out 4 FSMs and an upgrade for that privilege.

    Didn't expect a full-blown debate over the relative merits of the Norgh vs. the B'rel or the Mat'ha.
    noroblad wrote: »
    While it is pretty strong now, I highly advise you save your money. If you want a dps BOP wait for a t6.
    Yeah, I don't pay real money for ships. I'm not oozing EC and 36mil is ... more than a cheap old Scot like me wants to spend, hey, it's virtual money. I'm just griping. ;)
    patrickngo wrote: »
    The raptor's a Raptor. It's ONLY good against scripted NPC targets. The Norgh, on the other hand, works against Players, and still works against script-following NPC's. ... In terms of the post-upgrade BoPs, the Fleet Norgh is the best option we have unless Cryptic gives us a Tier six-because you can build it to really perform-not just park-and-spray like a Fed Cruiser.
    Well, PvP is not a consideration for me - if I want to be verbally abused (win, lose, or draw), I can find lots of ways to make that happen without logging into a video game. Going to a Philadelphia Eagles game wearing a Cowboys jacket, Redskins jersey, and Giants socks and hat would be more fun and less painful than PvP here (or anywhere).
    "You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
    --Red Annorax
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited December 2014
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    Since when is less crew good ?
    the less crew you have the less repairs get done, the less the weapons fire, the less sustained damage you can take.

    You gotta be trolling me.
    :P

    less crew regenerates like 100x faster than a 3000 crew does...each torp hit kills a % of crew so large crews take huge hits while a 50 man crew take 1 hit

    I don't even worry about crew in my scorts..an usually im tanking the map
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  • royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Empirical observation here-I see a heck of a lot more abuse hurled around in in PvE and Que'd content, than PvP, and a lot more frequent at that.

    that is, when PvE players even bother to speak at all.
    True enough, but then I don't play queued content much, either. Most of the trogs that act that way in PvE show themselves to be ... far less informed than they think they are. There, that was semi-tactful. ;) Anyway, those folks are easy to ignore.

    patrickngo wrote: »
    But, y'know, if you didn't like taking abuse from the people around you, why are you not playing Fed exclusively? after all, the risk form other players is about equivalent, but playing KDF you get to enjoy the abuse from the Lead Developer and his sycophants as well as other players....
    Fair enough question - I've played Romulans online dating way back to the old MUSH days in the early 90's, so I guess it is habit. The Devs 'abuse' is a different matter entirely and far less personal.
    "You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
    --Red Annorax
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    On the Scim comparison: I have no use for ships with that low a turn-rate, and my single Romulan is sitting around L45 right now, I just can't make myself 'like' the slow-handling Warbird series enough to sit through it until better ships are available.

    451 has, therefore, become a Doffing mule bouncing between NR and Qo'noS collecting bodies to feed into fleet projects.

    For a fleet ship, you really have to like the Bird of Prey to like the Norgh. (and wouldn't it have been nice if they'd put the Mirror Ki'Tang in as a C-store Ki'tang? it's where it really Belongs...)

    for other, PVE centric choices, the Tor'kaht, the Fleet Mogh, even the Fleet Somraw all give pretty good performance in spite of not having so many tac consoles as the Mat'Ha.

    Heh I also hate the scim to be honest. I use it now and then, but I didn't even upgrade mine. All my roms are in box ships now.

    I love the norgh. Don't mistake me on that. I am just not recommending buying one right now, today, at 30 bucks when as like as not we *may* have a t6 BOP soonish. Its just a lot of $$ to gamble on. Having already had mine a while, yea, its pretty strong. I only have the maha because I earned enough dil in the MU event to buy one, and it seemed more interesting than squandering it all on upgrades. I upgraded a set of tradeable weapons and some of my key gear and put that mess aside for now.

    Lets all just keep our fingers crossed for a t6 BOP sooner rather than later...
    In the meantime, the mirror bop is the cheap solution. If you are impatient and rolling in funds, norgh is fine... but its a risk of being wasted in 2, 3 months if a t6 rolls out.

    And the other guy beat me to it on the crew size. But in a few words or less... big crew ships in combat sit at 75% dead crew and they *never come back*. So on paper big crew looks good, but in practice, they are more of a liability.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,837 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »

    I won't pony thirty dollars for a Tier Six Raptor. Yes, it's Tier 6, and we only got it and a mediocre Battlecruiser, but since I'm not spending for the mediocre BC either, it balances out.

    I agree with most of what you said but I have to point something out. I recently broke down and bought the Qib. I was really surprised. SS and OSS are almost too good and with it's trait it has an amazing turn rate. Even with just 3 tac consoles I'm punching through people's shields with brute force. Add in it's battle cloak and I personally think its one of the best KDF battle cruisers. The fleet version will only make it better.

    I strongly feel it's the intel powers that push it over the top. If it had just standard powers and the same setup and stats, yeah, it would totally be mediocre, but with it's intel powers, it truly is a great ship.

    also the trait is pretty darn good on my t5u fleet b'rel and any other ship that uses cannons. It gets a stack per shot fired so you can get all 10 with just one volley and it persists as long as you keep shooting. Just 1 turret will give you all 10 stacks. I tried it on a beam boat with the heavy turret and was able to keep all 10 stacks the whole time.
  • royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    I mean, think about what it would be like to slot those powers and that trait on a GOOD Battlecruiser, like the Tork, or the Fleet K'tinga?
    Which explains why that was not done - to satisfy someone's definition of "balance". IMO I'm not certain anything resembling balance is even achievable anymore, but they don't ask me. ;)

    Incidentally, I went ahead and bought the fleet Norgh last night and moved all my Hegh'ta's equipment over. Then I went to bed.
    "You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
    --Red Annorax
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,062 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The Fleet Norgh T5U is a nice package. But if it makes you feel better, we still have playable low tiered ships that are not even available for play at T5 nor T6. Immediately the Qaw'Dun BOP (introduced with LOR, it's that old now) and the K'Tanco come to mind.

    Also, the Upgrade Skin on a B'Rel is wonderful.
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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The Fleet Norgh T5U is a nice package. But if it makes you feel better, we still have playable low tiered ships that are not even available for play at T5 nor T6. Immediately the Qaw'Dun BOP (introduced with LOR, it's that old now) and the K'Tanco come to mind.

    Also, the Upgrade Skin on a B'Rel is wonderful.

    if those are the BoPs i am thinking of, they arent even that new. they were the original ships available back before we were forced into feds the first 20-odd levels, reintroduced as 'new' when kdf got the early levels back.

    is the brel upgrade skin usable on the fleet brel? i have been falling out of touch with sto :(
  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    patrickngo wrote: »
    indeed. The pair of "New" BoPs DO date from before-they basically pulled them out of the storage trunk to put them in with the lowbie content.

    To be fair, re-packaging the B'Rel seems to a very acceptable and often used Klingon method of operation and tactic.
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  • potasssiumpotasssium Member Posts: 1,223 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    To be fair, re-packaging the B'Rel seems to a very acceptable and often used Klingon method of operation and tactic.

    Yeah, give the B'rel the Voyager Treatment, best Idea I've seen in this thread.

    Just 1 hybrid carear/intel slot for a bit of intel flair, but yes this, quick and easy.
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  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    potasssium wrote: »
    Yeah, give the B'rel the Voyager Treatment, best Idea I've seen in this thread.

    Just 1 hybrid carear/intel slot for a bit of intel flair, but yes this, quick and easy.

    LOL the day they give the b'rel any positive treatment is the day I die from a massive heart attack. Reason I say this is out of every possible thing they have screwed the KDF over the years the b'rel is the absolute winner. If you can think of any torpedo or mine combination that seems like it was nerfed really bad odds are that the brel could use it in a combination and because of what it does when its cloaked it basically got the devs to let that certain crowd dictate how the kdf is treated.

    To be honest though I highly doubt they will ever give us what we want though on the terms of the bird of prey topic. Its bad enough we don't get their semi useless science ships and then feds cry bloody murder if we get anything anyways so yeah especially with how much of a fail DR was on top of that we are only going to see fed ships this year.
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