Suggestion for Engineeer Class...new space ability?

rerednaw

I've seen some feedback that implies engineers could use a bit of a buff.

In space how about a engineering class ability that allows for manufacture of certain drones/turrets?

Somewhat similar in function to the ground systems. A hull repair drone, shield repair, turrets different types but defaulting to either beam or torp based on faction? The drones and turrets would be stationary. Maybe share a common cooldown to avoid spamming.

Too much?

I'm having a good time just defaulting to a cruiser and using the ship buffs...but it would be nice to have a class-specific function and not ship-specific. Science gets their Photonic Fleet and Tactical...well 'nuff said about Tac.

seriousdave

Well, engis have miracle worker which allows you to give a TRIBBLE about slotting boff repair abilites 'cause combined with the cooldwon trait it's incredible for recovery.

But aside from that engis really need something that gives them an offensive boost. Let's be real here, all the pve content is a dps race. It's all about taking down immense dps sponges within a time limit. Sci can cripple & debuff, tac brings the fire..... and the engi heals himself.

It's not much that's needed but at least somethig for sure.

dam999

seriousdave wrote: »

But aside from that engis really need something that gives them an offensive boost. Let's be real here, all the pve content is a dps race. It's all about taking down immense dps sponges within a time limit. Sci can cripple & debuff, tac brings the fire..... and the engi heals himself.

^This!

Finally a voice of reason..

Yes, engies need an offensive boost. The way I see it, make EPS do a wep overload of some sort giving 40% increase to all weps damage.

noroblad

engineers do not need an offense boost. Stop flying tanks if you want to dps!

I have a couple of engineers... my best is in a bird of prey and does solid damage while using my class skills to keep the fragile ship alive (not just MW, but shield rotation etc as well). And power transfer is pure gold... fly the extra mile to get flanking and pop out of full impulse with low power? Not a problem.... power to full and a stealthed flanked boosted BO3 is coming right up.

ONE of my engineers is in a "cruiser" with beam arrays and 2 tac consoles. It can't be killed, but it also takes 10 min to drop a vaaudwar combat group. This is not the fault of the class. This is 100% the ship, and lack thereof. In the t5U vet chimera, her damage is ... much much better -- its a 5 tac console ship and using DHC... see how that works?

stardestroyer001

Maybe not a new power, but a modification to existing powers. Tacs had something similar done to GDF.

RSF is a strong, non-Aux dependent TSS with a 2min cooldown. I think it's pretty good as-is.
Power Weed is a team-castable buff that boosts all subsystem levels by a significant amount, 2 min cooldown. I think this is perfect.
Nadion Inversion offers great power drain resistance (works similar to Marion) and has a 2 min cooldown.
And finally, MW + the trait is already a pretty potent defensive buff.

If anything, I suggest:

Make Nadion team-castable.
Buff RSF's resistance to kinetic damage.
Reduce Nadion Inversion's cooldown to 90sec instead of 120sec. (Hitting Nadion more often means you're outputting more damage with your energy weapons. Offense-engis, rejoice)

mscowboy

The problem is that the two powers engineers have for boosting damage, EPS transfer and Nadion, stop working as well the closer you get to a high-end build.

Both of these powers are particularly effective at boosting damage (mostly for beam ships) by managing weapon power. EPS boosts the overcap and power regeneration sky high, and nadion just stops the power from draining in the first place.

This is great for bringing beam ships up to their higher damage potential, but the best ships are able to manage weapon power all on their own. The better a ship can handle weapon power, the less it needs those captain powers. In other words, engineer powers are best for patching up the weaknesses in a lower end build. We need powers that retain effectiveness even on the best ships. Even with a lower cooldown on nadion, it won't do a whole lot on a ship that is already almost always at max power.


I do like the subsystem power theme that engineers have going. We're seeing a lot of things lately that increase the maximum power level, and I think that could be a good place to look for engineers. Even if it were a very small amount, such as EPS also raising the maximum power of all systems by just 5, 130 weapon power for 30 seconds could go a long way. Edit: with a restriction along the lines of only granting the higher power cap when used on yourself, to avoid teams of engineers all giving EPS to a tac scimi to set even more ridiculous records.

gizmox64

I'd love to see a Captain Skill that acts like a Tac's Fire on My Mark, or a Sci's Sensor Scan for the Engineer.

Something like those skills.. a damage increase and defense decrease to target.

When I switch to my Engy, I always look for the little red lighting bolt, or the blue hourglass.... but only see a sea of self buffs and OP Scotty's Legacy... er Miracle Worker.

dam999

gizmox64 wrote: »

I'd love to see a Captain Skill that acts like a Tac's Fire on My Mark, or a Sci's Sensor Scan for the Engineer.

Something like those skills.. a damage increase and defense decrease to target.

When I switch to my Engy, I always look for the little red lighting bolt, or the blue hourglass.... but only see a sea of self buffs and OP Scotty's Legacy... er Miracle Worker.

ROFLMAO, the only thing you see is Chief O'Briens stained undies as he puts WD-40 on some screws AKA Miracle worker!

stardestroyer001

mscowboy wrote: »

The problem is that the two powers engineers have for boosting damage, EPS transfer and Nadion, stop working as well the closer you get to a high-end build.

Both of these powers are particularly effective at boosting damage (mostly for beam ships) by managing weapon power. EPS boosts the overcap and power regeneration sky high, and nadion just stops the power from draining in the first place.

This is great for bringing beam ships up to their higher damage potential, but the best ships are able to manage weapon power all on their own. The better a ship can handle weapon power, the less it needs those captain powers. In other words, engineer powers are best for patching up the weaknesses in a lower end build. We need powers that retain effectiveness even on the best ships. Even with a lower cooldown on nadion, it won't do a whole lot on a ship that is already almost always at max power.


I do like the subsystem power theme that engineers have going. We're seeing a lot of things lately that increase the maximum power level, and I think that could be a good place to look for engineers. Even if it were a very small amount, such as EPS also raising the maximum power of all systems by just 5, 130 weapon power for 30 seconds could go a long way. Edit: with a restriction along the lines of only granting the higher power cap when used on yourself, to avoid teams of engineers all giving EPS to a tac scimi to set even more ridiculous records.

Indeed. Although this might have some rather, "interesting" effects when paired with Override Subsys Safeties, which already moves the 125 hard cap upwards for a period of time.

cosmicsunwind

Yeah Engingeer could use some better space abilities. I just can't wait to enter combat and fire my "Nadion Inversion III"!

rygelx16

noroblad wrote: »

engineers do not need an offense boost. Stop flying tanks if you want to dps!

Stop referring to the trinity in a game that doesn't use it. Engineers are not tanks because they have 0 threat control. Threat in this game depends on dps, so even if they were tanks then they would definitely need a buff to dps.

angrytarg

I made a suggestion in another thread to adapt a mechanic called "reflective tanking", though I thought about the big cruisers (not battlecruisers or tac cruisers) getting it, not engineers in general. Basically, the longer you manage to tank the more "grudge" you are building. This "grudge" is a temporary resource used for a strong counter attack which deals damage and/or disables and generates more threat, like a hyper charged shot or something similiar. Additionally, you get an ability similiar to a sci vessels sensor analysis which is castable on allies. If you mark an ally like this you are his or her designated protector. As a protector/defender you soak up a portion of damage he or she is taking as long as you manage to stay between the enemy and your ally. If your ally is under attack you start to build "grudge" twice as fast in order to generate more threat more quickly.

jamesdax

angrytarg wrote: »

I made a suggestion in another thread to adapt a mechanic called "reflective tanking", though I thought about the big cruisers (not battlecruisers or tac cruisers) getting it, not engineers in general. Basically, the longer you manage to tank the more "grudge" you are building. This "grudge" is a temporary resource used for a strong counter attack which deals damage and/or disables and generates more threat, like a hyper charged shot or something similiar. Additionally, you get an ability similiar to a sci vessels sensor analysis which is castable on allies. If you mark an ally like this you are his or her designated protector. As a protector/defender you soak up a portion of damage he or she is taking as long as you manage to stay between the enemy and your ally. If your ally is under attack you start to build "grudge" twice as fast in order to generate more threat more quickly.

I actually like the sound of this.

stardestroyer001

rygelx16 wrote: »

Stop referring to the trinity in a game that doesn't use it. Engineers are not tanks because they have 0 threat control. Threat in this game depends on dps, so even if they were tanks then they would definitely need a buff to dps.

lol what? Place points in threat control!

I do this for every one of my engis (6+ points in Threat). The result is that I draw more aggro than most tacs in escorts, even in a Galaxy.

warmaker001b

cosmicsunwind wrote: »

Yeah Engingeer could use some better space abilities. I just can't wait to enter combat and fire my "Nadion Inversion III"!

If you don't understand what Nadion Inversion does for your energy weapons' damage output, just go right now and delete your Engineer.

warmaker001b

skollulfr wrote: »

not as much as fomm or ApA.
about as much as a X->W core with leech, so... its like having leech for a few seconds.

30 seconds of reduction of weapons power drain on top of all the other means of power manipulation. It's "not a few seconds."

sdmachine

I have played for a few years and here are my rankings of the engineering abilities best to worse.

EPS manifold is by far the best engineer ability. It gives about 20 points of power to each system and has a 25% uptime. It allows you to put out more damage and heal better. It also increases shield resistance.

Miracle worker is good but only if the character gives up a trait ability as well. It should have a scaling damage resistance buff to make it a great ability. You really only need to add the trait in PVP as is.

Rotate Shield freq is ok. It gives a decent damage resistance (30%) to shields and has a 25% uptime. Nothing to brag about when so many boff abilities can out perform it (emergency power to shields being the best with possible 66% uptime)

Nadion Inversion is almost useless in the current game for a skilled player. With a 3 min cool down it has a 16% uptime. If its purpose is meant to be offensive then its a fail. There are numerous superior ways to minimize drain and overcap power with near 100% uptime that other careers use. If its purpose is meant to be defensive then it is a bigger fail. Since power drain builds essentially chain their drains 16% uptime is not enough to make a significant difference.

The problem with Engineering abilities is that they can all be duplicated and/or bested with other abilities in the game and they offer little offense with the exception of EPS. Since every career needs to tank there are so many ways in the game to tank.

Here are equivalents or better:

EPS- Plasmonic Leech or cheaper warp core engineer (near 100% up time). Yes leech take a console but what else are you going to put in the engineering slots.

MW- Engineering team/EPTS (available much more often even with the trait slotted). Almost everyone carries a hull and shield heal

RSF- Any shield heal is better because of the long cool down.

Nadion Inversion essentially useless but plasma integrated warp cores if you really cared.

Easiest fix would be to change Nadion Inversion to something completely different. With current state of the game it could be an Immunity to disables. Or you could go truly offensive and make it a directed energy modulation or maybe something that boosted torpedo damage to really throw a wrench in peoples' builds.

My 2 cents

talonxv

Well to toss in my idea, I'd love to see something like a Tanking retribution ability. Basically you take a bunch of damage over time, well you soak, and soak and soak, then after a certain point you can turn around and unleash it right back at an enemy.

Basically engineers would get the mother of all beam overloads and just get one gigantic blast after taking so much damage.

Or something like that. Would be kinda fun. :cool:

stardestroyer001

Nadion, in addition to acting like a Marion doff for all subsystems, also protects players from drains (Acetons) and other power draining abilities. It's not completely useless, but the people who benefit from Nadion are pressure damage dealers or PvP players aiming to resist a drain build.

jbmaverick

The problem isn't the Engineer class, it's the game itself being built around damage output and killing enemies as quickly as possible. If tanking was actually useful, the Engineer would be perfect for the job. Cryptic's answer to increased difficulty isn't so much to make enemies more difficult to deal with as it is to just make them take longer to kill. I've said it before with regards to numerous game and I've started saying it about this one as well: I hate, perhaps loathe even, "fake" difficulty. Increasing the numbers on an enemy does not equate to increased challenge, it's just tedious and/or frustrating. Give enemies new abilities, make them smarter if you can, but don't just increase their health and damage output and call it good.

Unfortunately, it's moved far beyond any simple fix to bring back the "trinity" gameplay style, such a change would require a vast rework of quite a few systems and abilities. Adding a new offensive power to Engineer isn't going to help it much when the class has been and continues to be primarily about defense, and if a new power were added to Engineer then Science and Tactical would have to get one as well, and they'd still continue to be better in the damage race.

I've played Engineer since open beta and I've had the same character since launch, always leaned towards tanking in space with Cruisers. But the game in general just seems to be moving in a direction I'm not particularly happy with. My play style is being ostracized by the content itself, not just the players.

angrytarg

talonxv wrote: »

Well to toss in my idea, I'd love to see something like a Tanking retribution ability. Basically you take a bunch of damage over time, well you soak, and soak and soak, then after a certain point you can turn around and unleash it right back at an enemy.

Basically engineers would get the mother of all beam overloads and just get one gigantic blast after taking so much damage.

Or something like that. Would be kinda fun. :cool:

I made a similiar suggestion on page 2, maybe that's what you are looking for? I added some "real" tanking to the mix, the possibility to actually protect your allies

Though for something like that to actually make sense you'd have to reduce HP on escorts and the like to restore some kind of trinity and people will rage like there is no tommorow if THAT happens

foxman00

angrytarg wrote: »

I made a similiar suggestion on page 2, maybe that's what you are looking for? I added some "real" tanking to the mix, the possibility to actually protect your allies

Though for something like that to actually make sense you'd have to reduce HP on escorts and the like to restore some kind of trinity and people will rage like there is no tommorow if THAT happens

I would have to agree with that, but then again, I can understand people asking not for a true trinity to be in this game.

Because if some of the communitys mindset wasnt "oh my god, it takes me 4 minutes instead of 3 minutes to get my rewards, thats too long, its gonna take me 1.2 days extra to finish my piece of gear, rage, or this carrer is useless" (please note, I know everyone isnt like that, hence the "some" statement). This game would be alot more calmer and relaxed in that aspect.

I do remember the F2P days after that started, alot of times pugs would barely make the optional 15 minutes in ISE, or would sometimes take 20 minutes just to finish the mission, because power creep was barely a thing.

Just before DR, powercreep was massive and people were completing ISE in 3 minutes.

Turn to today, and ISA (the old ISE in a sense) can still only take 3 minutes, but now alot of groups may take 10 minutes to complete it, or even almost miss the required 15 minute completion time.

I think DR in a case has tried to set us back to just after the F2P translation. In some ways it worked, in others it hasnt. Some people these days just dont like if something takes 5 minutes long to get their rewards.

I honesty think the powercreep spoiled alot of players, thinking all they needed was 5 minutes, and i can get alot of loot and rewards.

Delta Rising was a rude awakening for alot of them, and naturally they arent happy

So, trying to rebalance the careers or ships, if they even reduce some of them by 1% in tanking or hull hit points, the rage would be massive from some of the community

Age we live in huh, cant say it isnt boring

captaind3

noroblad wrote: »

engineers do not need an offense boost. Stop flying tanks if you want to dps!

I have a couple of engineers... my best is in a bird of prey and does solid damage while using my class skills to keep the fragile ship alive (not just MW, but shield rotation etc as well). And power transfer is pure gold... fly the extra mile to get flanking and pop out of full impulse with low power? Not a problem.... power to full and a stealthed flanked boosted BO3 is coming right up.

ONE of my engineers is in a "cruiser" with beam arrays and 2 tac consoles. It can't be killed, but it also takes 10 min to drop a vaaudwar combat group. This is not the fault of the class. This is 100% the ship, and lack thereof. In the t5U vet chimera, her damage is ... much much better -- its a 5 tac console ship and using DHC... see how that works?

The flaw in your thinking though is that by defaulting to the "don't fly tanks" position then you've basically obsoleted an entire third of the ships in game. My Assault Cruiser refit does very well. It's not a monster but most of the time wasted against Vaaudwar comes from the obscene lag and not a lack of firepower. And if you're in a standard cruiser you've gotta use Dual Beam Banks with Strategic Maneuvering. That said, this isn't a cruisers need an offensive boost thread either.

Cross class builds do work well, Hell on DS9 Sisko was an Eng in an Escort. Picard was a sci in a cruiser. Kirk was a Tac in a Cruiser. Janeway is the only one a Sci in a Sci.

That said, cruisers in canon are the biggest and the baddest. Calling the Defiant an Escort was always laughable as it is a pocket battleship. The Prometheus....was something worse (for enemies) it was three pocket battleships.

Anyway back on subject....

There comes a certain point where Engineer Captain abilities do in fact become redundant.

I don't use my Captain Abilities on my eng main, because with the exception of EPS, RSF, and MW I don't need them. Between traits, Doffs, and Boffs my weapons, Shields, and engines stay at 125-100 at all times. The three that I listed are purely situational. RSF for the resistance boost when I'm under heavy fire. EPS is either a gift to someone else, or a boost to aux when I need it, and Miracle Worker obviously when the health and shields are low. I don't even notice Nadion Inversion and I would have to actively remember it were I to use it to counter a drain effect.

angrytarg wrote: »

I made a suggestion in another thread to adapt a mechanic called "reflective tanking", though I thought about the big cruisers (not battlecruisers or tac cruisers) getting it, not engineers in general. Basically, the longer you manage to tank the more "grudge" you are building. This "grudge" is a temporary resource used for a strong counter attack which deals damage and/or disables and generates more threat, like a hyper charged shot or something similiar. Additionally, you get an ability similiar to a sci vessels sensor analysis which is castable on allies. If you mark an ally like this you are his or her designated protector. As a protector/defender you soak up a portion of damage he or she is taking as long as you manage to stay between the enemy and your ally. If your ally is under attack you start to build "grudge" twice as fast in order to generate more threat more quickly.

That's brilliant actually.

Alternatively, the ability would just grant a general damage resistance debuff on your weapons as long as the incoming fire was pouring on, kind of like a constant Attack Pattern Beta. I've got the fluff right here as the enemy fires on you, your shields are able to receive information on the frequency of the weapons and how those weapons are affected coming through your shields, allowing your weapons to modulate to penetrate shields more effectively.

Either way, the ability could build and drop like a singularity meter.

cosmicsunwind

Engineer has enough tanking ability, I don't want another boring tanking ability.

We have Constructs (turrets, drones etc) in ground combat - why not something like that for space?


- "Deploy Automated Sentry Turret"
A buffed up version of the ship turret devices; http://sto.gamepedia.com/Device_-_Heavy_Phaser_Satellite_Turret

Make it Phaser for fed, Plasma for Klingon? Or just make it do kinetic damage.
Alternatively a torpedo version would work too.

Just make sure it has enough HP so that it doesn't die the moment an enemy looks in its general direction.


Another idea if you MUST make it tanking-related, could be "Hull Repair Drones", which would essentially be this console: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Repair_Platform

Except actually make it worthwhile, because the console sucks. Have it spawn all 5 repair drones on use, give them more HP (Frigate-carrier-pet-HP) and actually have them do a decent job at healing hull. Maybe even shields?

(On the topic of those hull repair drones, annoyingly they don't repair my carriers hangar pets)

dam999

So the question is, why doesn't Cryptic make those changes to engineer space abilities?

People seem to talk about it for a long time and still no improvement. Is Cryptic oblivious of engineer space abilities flaws?

paxdawn

dam999 wrote: »

So the question is, why doesn't Cryptic make those changes to engineer space abilities?

People seem to talk about it for a long time and still no improvement. Is Cryptic oblivious of engineer space abilities flaws?

What this constant whinning about ENG abilities on multiple threads?

Engineer abilities shouldnt be change just because certain players cannot maximize an engineer toon while others can.

orangeitis

seriousdave wrote: »

But aside from that engis really need something that gives them an offensive boost. Let's be real here, all the pve content is a dps race. It's all about taking down immense dps sponges within a time limit. Sci can cripple & debuff, tac brings the fire..... and the engi heals himself.

The solution to an environment that only favors one playstyle is not to adapt all classes to that playstyle, but to adapt the gameplay environment to favor no playstyle.

There's nothing wrong with the Engineer career itself. Its job is defense and tanking, and it does them well. We just need to make tanking more valuable in the metagame.

willamsheridan

orangeitis wrote: »

The solution to an environment that only favors one playstyle is not to adapt all classes to that playstyle, but to adapt the gameplay environment to favor no playstyle.

There's nothing wrong with the Engineer career itself. Its job is defense and tanking, and it does them well. We just need to make tanking more valuable in the metagame.

Exactly. i hate it when i read that Engineers, Science officers, Sci ships and Cruisers are no good and the only acceptable playstyle is as a Tac in an Escort. ACruiser can take more damage, Beams have a better firing Arc, I can use EPtWII and III and AP Beta, i can reduce energy drain to 0. Cruisers and Engineers are Amazing.

The only thing this Game needs is that Cryptic stops ruining it with their insane love for DPS.

I use Cruisers and Escorts on both, my Engineer and my Tac Officer. I prefer Cruisers or Battlecruisers and my Engineer

orangeitis

willamsheridan wrote: »

Exactly. i hate it when i read that Engineers, Science officers, Sci ships and Cruisers are no good and the only acceptable playstyle is as a Tac in an Escort. ACruiser can take more damage, Beams have a better firing Arc, I can use EPtWII and III and AP Beta, i can reduce energy drain to 0. Cruisers and Engineers are Amazing.

The only thing this Game needs is that Cryptic stops ruining it with their insane love for DPS.

I use Cruisers and Escorts on both, my Engineer and my Tac Officer. I prefer Cruisers or Battlecruisers and my Engineer

Couldn't agree more.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. The Mirror Invasion revamp is definitely on the right track. It's the only instance where my lowest-DPS ships could not only contribute the most, but actually carry everyone through a pug of it single-handedly. No, that's not hyperbole.

dam999

I agree. An engineer definitely needs boost in space DPS.

senatorvreenak

I think simplest would be to change EPS so that it can "overcharge" ship systems considerably, maybe add +25 cap fo all subsystems during the duration.
Making it more unique and thematic rather than using flat out buffs or debuffs like tactical and sci.

I mean lets face it, both Sci and Tacs bring something unique and useful to any ship class, be it escorts, cruisers or science ships.