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faw out of controll

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  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eurialo wrote: »
    Don't you think faw is totally out of control? I just played an isa and it wasn't fun at all... not because we failed it, but because of faw... just 2 ship were enough to clear everything in a few seconds... no ability, no manouvering, no strategy... really a few seconds and everything has been done.


    looking at the leaderboard I can see players with more than 100k dps, one of them can deal the same damage of more than 3 escorts like mine... It's crazy, there is no way to balance pve queues if there is so much power creep.

    These players can probably deal more damage than you without using FAW. Ryan showed how one can deal dps coming from Plasma procs and TBR with a 2 Tac console ship, 6 weapon ship.

    Its a combination of knowledge of mechanics, optimal grouping and skill of piloting.

    For Fed, the most powerful DPS tool is not even a weapon nor FAW, its a console.
  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    These players can probably deal more damage than you without using FAW.

    even so, what that changes about faw?
    I will not wonder if without faw the highest dps in the dps-league table will drop from 160k+ to about 40k

    actually faw can be a "I win in one second" ability in a pve scenario.... there is no way to do the same without faw!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eurialo wrote: »
    Don't you think faw is totally out of control? I just played an isa and it wasn't fun at all... not because we failed it, but because of faw... just 2 ship were enough to clear everything in a few seconds... no ability, no manouvering, no strategy... really a few seconds and everything has been done.


    looking at the leaderboard I can see players with more than 100k dps, one of them can deal the same damage of more than 3 escorts like mine... It's crazy, there is no way to balance pve queues if there is so much power creep.

    if you are in an escort, which is a damage ship, and cannot do but 1/3 the dps of other players, something is wrong... and its not *them*.

    Lets break it down...
    no ability? I can *assure* you these ships were *spamming* abilities. Not just faw, but all kinds of things like power to weapons, attack patterns, and more. Or if you mean player ability, .... you can't build and fly a 100k dps ship without ability. Even people that copy the scimitar builds can't do it, there is more to it than just slapping on a copy of someone's stuff and mashing fire all weapons.

    piloting.... capital ships vs escorts. Capital ships don't do a lot of fancy piloting, they fly in and wreck the joint. Its the difference between aircraft carriers vs patrol coast guard speedboats. On top of this, ISA .... the goal is to blow up more or less fixed targets + a few defenders of said fixed targets. What fancy flying do you need to shoot at a stationary target??

    no strategy? Wrong. Flying in and shooting *is* a perfectly valid strategy for a mission to, again, shoot a few stationary targets. Try a different STF if you want to do more.

    Escorts should be among the top dps ships, if you are doing 1/3 the damage of other players, something is wrong and its not THEM.

    100k dps? A few players can do this. Maybe 1%, or less, of the active players. The *vast* majority of players in stfs can only just break 10k, if that. Many are still in the 3-7k dps range. Your experience is not typical at all.
  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Please...

    Using faw you can deal barely 50k dps and up to 160k dps if you are realy good...
    Using cannons it's difficult dealing more than 40k dps even if you are good and have the best...

    I repeat... before telling me I can't play or I do not know what I am talking about, show me you can do the same dps of a faw build using a solo cannons build.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • dese1ectdese1ect Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eurialo wrote: »

    Using faw you can deal barely 50k dps and up to 160k dps if you are realy good...

    Here is the problem. You are saying an ability is broken because the top 157 parses have broken 50k and most of them used BFAW. However, there are over 300K active players so you are crying about 0.05% of the active user base. That is roughly 1 in every 2000 players. I would agree with you if BFAW just gave everyone immense power and made even the crappiest pilot a powerhouse. It doesn't.

    I fly a DHC FPER because it's fun. I don't think flying BFAW builds are as fun, because it doesn't fit my style. I use phasers because I like them. Don't let other people define your gaming experience for you. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • edited January 2015
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  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    dese1ect wrote: »
    Here is the problem. You are saying an ability is broken because the top 157 parses have broken 50k and most of them used BFAW. However, there are over 300K active players so you are crying about 0.05% of the active user base. That is roughly 1 in every 2000 players. I would agree with you if BFAW just gave everyone immense power and made even the crappiest pilot a powerhouse. It doesn't.

    I fly a DHC FPER because it's fun. I don't think flying BFAW builds are as fun, because it doesn't fit my style. I use phasers because I like them. Don't let other people define your gaming experience for you. :)


    faw is broken, not because of the top dps players... the top players dealing 100k+ dps just demostrate how much it's broken.

    And the real problem with faw is that you can't balance any scenario with such a power creep, so much power creep that 2 players (not the top ones, just 2 player dealing 50k dps) are enough to clear everything just spamming faw.

    Simply faw can give you an incredible dps with no drawback
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • edited January 2015
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  • edited January 2015
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    FAW isn’t a problem and not at all good by itself. Peeps who accomplish such things as the OP witnessed in the STF have spend countless hours and invested massive resources and game knowledge into their builds to make it as portend as it is.

    They have every right to beat the STF the way they do and I feel very happy that the revamp of the difficulty setting did not stop em from doing so.

    I even feel more happy that the devs seem to be clueless under what circumstances an elite mode of the classic borg STF can be implemented without ruining the fun for anybody else.

    Nerfing FAW is one option, but it would be a failure’s way to do so.
    animated.gif
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  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    patrickngo wrote: »

    But..really? PVE runs are rote memorization exercises-knowing what the pattern is long before you set foot in. So there's practice there...

    would love to see how "Ubar" your DPS forces would be in PvP. Never gonna happen, of course...but It would make a fascinating observational exercise to see how "Skilled" you are when you don't have every tic of the target's behaviour down on a stopwatch.

    PvE is like the execution of katas ( martial arts fixed moves ), either if you fly a faw ship or a cannnonscort or whatever : you have time to think, to watch, to execute over and over and over again your patterns until they become part of you.

    PvP is like a real live fight : everything is quick, fast ... patterns should flow automatically, actions taken in the blink of an eye ( especially if you blink a sub :P ), your ship is like your body, don't think ... feeeeel
    edalgo wrote: »
    They did come onto the PvP scene 2 years ago. They wrecked stuff for a while. Fleets QQ'd and other Fleets embraced and learned from them.

    Top teams and players had to adapt and that is why you see sooooo many FBP users now.

    Only after viable Science counters and strategies were formulated was the DPS in PvP brought under control.

    People use what's most effective in the present meta : at that time FAW was "broken", now it's the neutronic torp which is "broken".
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    you can't compare pvp and pve scenario... it' a big error.
    Players (especially a premade) are smart enough to use sevaral science abilities (FBP, SS...), consoles or trying to disable and assist each other to defend themselves from players using faw.

    The AI is not smart at all, usually it does not use anything to prevent or stop faw spamming... increasing npcs number, hp, resistance or defence it's only an invite to use faw based build. And if you think the problem is not faw, but romulan bofs, atb, doffs or whatever you want, then try to use the same mechanics with csv... the gap between faw and csv is simpli too great. What make faw so powerfull is the way faw and beam array works. Using beam array and faw you can hit up to 16 targets in a 10km sphere around you, moreover you do not need to target nothing and you do not miss a single shoot... faw is at the same time the way to attack everything and the way to defend yourself both because it's easy to destroy hy toperdoes or small targets, both because hitting so many targets at the same time with enough dps you clear everything around you.

    the same mechanics used with csv do not give you so much powercreep because you have 2 great limitations:

    1) a small firing arch: 45°
    2) max 3 targets, no matter how many cannons you have equiped.

    the first limitatation require you to be a smart pilot continuosly looking for the best position to hit as much targets as possible (using beam you just need to be in a sphere with many targets)

    the second avoid you for devasting everything in a while even if you have 20 targets blocked by a GW in front of you.

    I repeat, the same mechanis aplied to csv do not let you dealing much more than 37-40k dps and since you need to move much more, it's harder clearing everything quickly as using faw.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eurialo wrote: »
    Please...

    Using faw you can deal barely 50k dps and up to 160k dps if you are realy good...
    Using cannons it's difficult dealing more than 40k dps even if you are good and have the best...

    I repeat... before telling me I can't play or I do not know what I am talking about, show me you can do the same dps of a faw build using a solo cannons build.

    done. I will do this for you.
    target : one borg cube.

    cannon flanker at 0.1 distance.

    cannon wins.

    Because the big number parses are, every single one of them.... aoe fights. A BO3 crit one-shot is infinite dps, and that cannot be defeated. But a long fight vs a tough enemy with millions of HP, the cannons will beat the sustained dps of the beams on one target. Trouble is, there are not many fights like that in game. But using faw instead of BO3 on a single target... the beams won't keep up.
  • johnstewardjohnsteward Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    eurialo wrote: »
    Don't you think faw is totally out of control? I just played an isa and it wasn't fun at all... not because we failed it, but because of faw... just 2 ship were enough to clear everything in a few seconds... no ability, no manouvering, no strategy... really a few seconds and everything has been done.


    looking at the leaderboard I can see players with more than 100k dps, one of them can deal the same damage of more than 3 escorts like mine... It's crazy, there is no way to balance pve queues if there is so much power creep.

    And have you tried it? Faw i mean. Just buy some cheap mk 12 beams from the exchange and go parse yourself. I bet you wont hit even close to 50k let alone 100k. Faw is good maybe even slightly op compared to cannons which is more about cannon abilities being bad than faw being totally crazy. But its by far not like slotting faw will push you to high dps just by slotting (and using) it.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And have you tried it? Faw i mean. Just buy some cheap mk 12 beams from the exchange and go parse yourself. I bet you wont hit even close to 50k let alone 100k. Faw is good maybe even slightly op compared to cannons which is more about cannon abilities being bad than faw being totally crazy. But its by far not like slotting faw will push you to high dps just by slotting (and using) it.

    the problem with cannons is the multiplying effect of 3-4 things.

    damage drop off .. it is difficult to sit at 1k or less from a group of targets. A strong GW can provide this, but in general, its a lot harder to get 10 guys in a CSV cone at point blank range.

    aoe game - the game is built around tons of trash which favors the best aoe. see point #1 and # 3

    - arc. The arc of the aoe and the arc of attacking is too narrow, favoring beams.

    - skills. BO3 is doing over 100k now. Cannons have nothing like this. 2% isnt much but its more than 0 --- the crafted trait for cannons is garbage.

    - aft weapons. Turrets are ultra weak, while the doubled AP omni beams are very strong aft weapons. The DBB/omni-aft combo is brutally strong. The DHC arc cannon is junk.

    - passive officer abilities. The overload bypassing shields is super strong. Cannon's don't have this.

    - pedal to the metal is much easier to use with a wider arc, or broadside boat, than DHC...

    And that is not everything, there are other places cannons fall behind beams. Across the board, and with every new addition, beams are favored more and all the little things add up to a very large difference. Its not faw, its the package.
  • eurialoeurialo Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    noroblad wrote: »
    done. I will do this for you.
    target : one borg cube.

    cannon flanker at 0.1 distance.

    cannon wins.

    Because the big number parses are, every single one of them.... aoe fights. A BO3 crit one-shot is infinite dps, and that cannot be defeated. But a long fight vs a tough enemy with millions of HP, the cannons will beat the sustained dps of the beams on one target. Trouble is, there are not many fights like that in game. But using faw instead of BO3 on a single target... the beams won't keep up.


    clap clap clap...

    spike damage means nothing... the tipical pve scenario has many targets (and you are not forced to destroy them one by one), and even if a beam deals less damage on a single target, faw can have an overall damage highter than csv or bo3. I remember you actualy you can have up to 163k dps using a faw build...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
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