"Hazari starship T5 ability bugged/worthless" INVESTIGATING

virusdancer

This was originally posted by johnsteward here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1296981

I'm just going to quote the first two posts in the thread, since I believe this should be in the Bug Reports section so Cryptic can take a look at it...

johnsteward wrote: »

not sure if its just bugged or worthlesd to begin with but the 10% extra dmg is just basedmg not alldmg und daher bei 3 stacks so maximal 2% dmg extra.


Sad to see another case of "much less shiny than its made out to be

virusdancer wrote: »

Looking at an item on my build...having removed my Pirate BOFF:

Unbuffed: 8502.2

w/ Positive Feedback Loop: 9352.4

~9.99% increase, so it matches the 10% - there's likely rounding going on.

w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x1: 8778.6 (~3.2%)
w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x2: 9055 (~6.5%)
w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x3: 9331.5 (~9.7%)
~276.4 increase

So yeah, definitely not providing the +10% All Damage per stack (where All Damage typically reflects a bonus boost instead of a strength boost).

Remove some gearing: 7211

w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x1: 7487.4 (~3.8%)
w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x2: 7763.8 (~7.7%)
w/ Partners in Arms (Hazari) x3: 8040.3 (~11.5%)
~276.4 increase

Thing is, 276.4 isn't 10% of the base damage for that particular item. So it's not a strength boost of 10% per stack.

Well, let's check a few other things first...

Unbuffed: 6524.5
w/ PiA1: 6704.9
~180.4
Well, that is a ~10% base increase for that item.

Unbuffed: 288.1
w/ PiA1: 296.6
~8.5 increase
Need to do some other math here. Yeah, at 42 weapon power it would be ~84% - give or take some rounding - would give us a 10% base increase at ~84%.

Leaves me curious about that first one, because I just can't see how the base would be 2764 for the item in question. Hrmm, never mind - apparently it is - taking a closer look at it. For some strange reason, the damage calculation for it is: Base * (2 + SumAllStrength) * (1 + SumAllBonus) instead of Base * (1 + SumAllStrength) * (1 + SumAllBoost). Curious...I wonder if it is meant to be like that. But that's a separate matter...

...yeah, the +10% (20%) (30%) All Damage is acting like a strength boost rather than a bonus boost.

virusdancer

I just wanted to add to this, because there actually is another place where All Damage is used where it is Strength rather than Bonus...that's with [AMP]. So it's entirely possible that this is working as intended - just not as "player" expected. Could be a case of it just being confusing tooltip info (really do appreciate the effort Cryptic has made in updating those tooltips to reflect Damage and Bonus Damage)...or...it could be providing the wrong bonus.

Just saw a thread on [AMP] and was like, oh yeah - forgot about that (heh, in the thread where Hawk spelled it out, I'd joked that I can never remember [AMP] for some reason)...

So yeah, just wanted to add that in there as a possible explanation for what's going on there if it's a case of it coming back that it is definitely working as intended.

Thanks.

pwstolemyname

If this trait worked to a grater extent I would slap extend shields on everything with 3 or more engineering abilities. But as it is, I will save my resources for the next t6 lobi/lockbox ship.

crypticfrost

Issue verified. I'm only seeing about 3% per stack with Partners in Arms. Thanks for the report.

crypticfrost

An update on this: It seems this is a result of the formula used to figure weapon damage. It's designed so that multiple buffs have a diminishing return. So the only way to see the full true value of any buff is to start with no mods at all, items, skills, etc.

Yes, this makes communicating actual, seen in the UI, buff numbers almost impossible to convey. However, the only option would be, as I understand it, to recode our entire damage system, a massive undertaking that there's no way for us to even consider.

That's the basics of what was explained to me by the designer. As such, this is a "Works as Designed" situation.

robdmc

Would it make sense to add a notation that buffs can have diminishing returns and which buff interact with it? That would alleviate some confusion.

dontdrunkimshoot

seems like increasing the magnitude at which this trait buffs is appropriate then

crusaderxeno

crypticfrost wrote: »

An update on this: It seems this is a result of the formula used to figure weapon damage. It's designed so that multiple buffs have a diminishing return. So the only way to see the full true value of any buff is to start with no mods at all, items, skills, etc.

Yes, this makes communicating actual, seen in the UI, buff numbers almost impossible to convey. However, the only option would be, as I understand it, to recode our entire damage system, a massive undertaking that there's no way for us to even consider.

That's the basics of what was explained to me by the designer. As such, this is a "Works as Designed" situation.

I understand what you are saying, but "works as designed" is not how the definition of the trait is being taken. I would advise some sort of text change in a future patch or even just adding that this trait is affected by diminished returns.

Another way you could do it is just rework the code on the trait to give a damage output increase for each level that would negate the diminished return issue so it would work closer to how it is currently perceived at 10% per stack. Like one trait bonus would be 30%, the next 60% for a total of 90% and so on. The actual math isn't there getting it to 10% for each stack, but I just threw up how I was thinking it.

walshicus

crypticfrost wrote: »

An update on this: It seems this is a result of the formula used to figure weapon damage. It's designed so that multiple buffs have a diminishing return. So the only way to see the full true value of any buff is to start with no mods at all, items, skills, etc.

Yes, this makes communicating actual, seen in the UI, buff numbers almost impossible to convey. However, the only option would be, as I understand it, to recode our entire damage system, a massive undertaking that there's no way for us to even consider.

That's the basics of what was explained to me by the designer. As such, this is a "Works as Designed" situation.

Surely there's a way to expose what sources contribute how much to final damage output on a per-weapon basis?

virusdancer

crypticfrost wrote: »

An update on this: It seems this is a result of the formula used to figure weapon damage. It's designed so that multiple buffs have a diminishing return. So the only way to see the full true value of any buff is to start with no mods at all, items, skills, etc.

Yes, this makes communicating actual, seen in the UI, buff numbers almost impossible to convey. However, the only option would be, as I understand it, to recode our entire damage system, a massive undertaking that there's no way for us to even consider.

That's the basics of what was explained to me by the designer. As such, this is a "Works as Designed" situation.

Heh, that's some dangerous language there with the diminishing returns for folks that might not understand what's taking place there. And as far as conveying those numbers...wheeee...well, I disagree. But I like posting numbers until folks eyes are bleeding. :P

But thanks for taking a look and having them look....confirming it is a strength boost and not a bonus boost. Regardless of the results, I definitely appreciate you guys having looked at it and answering us.

aniax01

Extend Shields and Science Fleet (heal & buff respectively) are not triggering the trait even when they show '10% damage boost (stacks up to 3 times)' when moused over.

Pls fix this or else it will be very difficult to get the buff during combat making the trait practically useless. :mad:

architect13

Any update on these issues?