test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Some thoughts on the Republic
ambassadormolari
Member Posts: 709 Arc User
So, I've been doing some thinking lately, and I've come to the conclusion that we aren't being given the full story on the Romulan Repubic. Up until now, Cryptic has been giving us a starry-eyed, optimistic view of the Republic, of how they are so good and noble and blah blah blah. And to be fair, any state looks pleasant when compared with the Star Empire. However, their presentation of the Republic seems a lot less rosy when you consider the following:
1. Some people may believe in D'Tan and his ideals, but I'm sure that many others may consider him and his reunificationist agenda to be naive. I'm sure there's a lot of quiet dissent and politicking in the Republic's new senate that we aren't being shown, not to mention ongoing debate as to whether or not reunification should be pursued.
2. Discrimination and hatred between the Romulans and Remans has existed for centuries. Deep-seated prejudices don't go away with a drop of a hat, and I think this prejudice is something that the Republic may still be struggling with behind the scenes.
3. Has Obisek actually joined the Repubic, or are he and his group still semi-independent? Cryptic hasn't made that clear, and if its a latter, that means he's still a potentially dangerous wildcard.
4. The Republic's primary enemy, the Tal Shiar, are masters of espionage and infiltration. This makes me wonder how closely Republic Intelligence is monitoring their population for infiltrators, and how much privacy or freedom Republic citizens are sacrificing in the name of security.
Anyone else feel that there's a grittier side to the Republic that we aren't being shown, or at least hasn't been mentioned yet?
1. Some people may believe in D'Tan and his ideals, but I'm sure that many others may consider him and his reunificationist agenda to be naive. I'm sure there's a lot of quiet dissent and politicking in the Republic's new senate that we aren't being shown, not to mention ongoing debate as to whether or not reunification should be pursued.
2. Discrimination and hatred between the Romulans and Remans has existed for centuries. Deep-seated prejudices don't go away with a drop of a hat, and I think this prejudice is something that the Republic may still be struggling with behind the scenes.
3. Has Obisek actually joined the Repubic, or are he and his group still semi-independent? Cryptic hasn't made that clear, and if its a latter, that means he's still a potentially dangerous wildcard.
4. The Republic's primary enemy, the Tal Shiar, are masters of espionage and infiltration. This makes me wonder how closely Republic Intelligence is monitoring their population for infiltrators, and how much privacy or freedom Republic citizens are sacrificing in the name of security.
Anyone else feel that there's a grittier side to the Republic that we aren't being shown, or at least hasn't been mentioned yet?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by ambassadormolari on
0
Comments
As has been brought up in other threads. Many do not believe in D'tan's dream of becoming a Vulcan and sitting at the feet of the Federation masters any more than they want to feel Klingon boots to their ribs. Obisiek seems to be semi independent, working with the Republic because they are offering a home for his people. Something he has dreamed of giving them. It is a separate enclave that the Romulan people seem to not be permitted into. This may be seeing to their needs or it may be segregation. Till things quiet down we won't know.
Mol'rihan is built on the backs of abused citizens and refugees. Many will listen to D'tan because he gives them hope of full bellies and medicine for the ill.
Sadly only time will tell if D'tan's dreams are the nightmares of the rest of the romulan people.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Well that point of view is shared by several people. Although I would say that the Republic look so "good" compared to the RSE is also the result of a - to say it soft - very bad picture which is presented of the RSE in STO which often lacks a little bit logic (I mean, Hakeev is so one-dimensional BAD GUY that I guess even several antagonists in Marvel comics are more complex and appealing than he, I would say).
About your different points...
1. Here I agree to 100 percent. We must also keep in mind that the legal power of D'Tan is fragile at best (or at least I do not know who legalize his rule for now - there was no real vote). And the Senate which might be formed or not might be either hand-picked supporter of him (which may cause trouble) or is made also out of people who has very own ideas AND perhaps much more cunning and practice in that type of games. D'Tan was never a real politician (at least as far as I know he was much more figure of a underground-movement, but neither a skilled administrator nor ruler of a greater community which was NOT to forced to work together by the circumstances). And if the Republic grows the number of people who are much less committed to his ideas will grow, too. And they will demand to be recognized. Even his decision to hold on and strengthen the alliance with Feds and Klingons and sending Romulan soldiers in conflicts in Deferi Space or Delta Quadrant MIGHT be seen by more traditional elements as suicidal...
2. Also true. I think there are on both sides people who will not so fast forget what the others had done to them (Romulans who had lost relatives in Reman terror-attacks, Remans which see at first a enemy if they see an Romulan). If you think twice than I guess there must be violent clashes on individual level daily. Perhaps often not more than bar-fights, but that could lead to much more. And there may be secret groups in both populations who think the cooperation is a mistake.
3. I would say Obisek and his men would be a problem in ANY case, if they joined or not. They are (I think) killers in the eyes of many if not most Romulans (and on the other hand THEY surely have a huge problem with former imperial military personal, administrators and even TS-members who may support the Republic for now). After all Obisek and co. surely should have a problem in any normal political process, since they are more a resistance/terror-organization than anything else. If the Republic is committed towards one man - one vote ideas, than a growing number of Romulans would mean less influence for Obisek and his men (and vice versa) - nothing which is without problems. Also hard to imagine that the Remans and Romulans work together in any case smoothly, I mean, following the orders of the other side...
4. Also a good question. I think it is very likely that quiet a number of sleeper cells are active (I mean, we had seen how easy the one top-TS-girl could walk into D'Tans office - if she would had the will and a plasma handgun, than D'tan would be dead right now). But it is tricky to control a population which is made out of refugees, even more if it is made out people from different species who highly distrust each other (and we have Klingons and Feds on the world, too - may some of them are also on the TS pay list). I guess you could hardly throw a stone on Second New Romulus without hitting either a Republican/Imperial Remnant/TS/Klingon Intel./Star Fleet Intel.-officer. And I guess we could be sure that the two last also recruit Romulans as agents (as perhaps the other way around). Sounds...complicated to say it soft.
On the other hand, it would be not the first time that in a Star Trek setting such problems are more or less ignored. The Republic are the white-hat-good guys, so logic seems sometimes have little weight to their success... if I may use some sarcasm...;)
Well, as far as it is about my toon - he would surely would love to see a lot of changes in the Republic, and nearly none of that would be on D'Tans wishlist.
1. D'Tan's personal agenda is not his political agenda. I believe this has been made plain on more than one occasion in-game. The only Reunification I support is both Reunification with the Havrannsu (Remans) and an awakening among the Thaessu (Vulcans) to fidelity to Surak's teaching on Kol-Ut-Shan (Infinite Diversity in Infinite combinations), which latter will necessitate recognition of Vulcan transgression in the time leading up to the Sundering, and thus also recognition of the right of our people to live according to the Old Ways from before the rise of Surak. Many of the Romulan superiority crowd do not understand what Reunification is, and/or have chosen to ignore the historical reality that there were Surakians among the Exiles who departed from ch"Thaei (Vulcan). Some are so deeply entrenched in the Romulan superiority mindset as to view even mere alliance with other powers as some form of slavery, which is, of course, utterly ridiculous.
2. Not all Rihanh were afflicted by this prejudice in the past; not all Rihanh are afflicted by this prejudice in the present. While some were, and some are yet, with familiarity, education, and cooperation for our common goals, this prejudice will fade. One of the questions asked in every interview the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann gives to potential recruits addresses this; we will not accept racists among us, and we have a Havranha (Reman) not only on our Raenasa (High Command), but also our Eireth Nodaire'enh (Steering Committee). He is not a token; he is fully qualified for his office, and we are very fortunate to have him and other Havrannsu among our personnel.
3. Obisek is in fact now a citizen of the New Romulan Republic.
4. We catch Tal'Shiar infiltrators periodically. Their numbers are dwindling, which should not be surprising, given the situation with the ever-shrinking, vestigial remnants of the Star Empire in the present time.
About D'Tans agenda, well, he even mentioned reunification when he greats newcomers on Second New Romulus. And I think it is clear that a head of state in such a moment is not just a men who speaks of his personal agenda. When he took control (with little if any legal justification) he must had known that from that day on any word he say will be looked onto with eagle eyes, so to speak. That he still speak about reunification more than once is a clear signal, or at least it will be seen that way by many.
I would also say to claim "some" Romulans have prejudice towards Remans simplify the problems a lot (by the way I do not believe ambassadormolari claim that ALL Romulans think that way). I would claim while you are surely right that some Romulans did not share the "traditional" opinion towards the Remans (and the other way around), a majority will do - but of course the prejudice differs between deep hate, a look onto the Remans as something inferior (like "white" people onto african people in the 19th century) and some may have only "soft" prejudice - but would like to live far away from them - all this little daily rascism... Centuries of official policy and propaganda and years of bitter conflict with crimes from both sides (including that Shinzon and his Reman friends slaugthered the Romulan Senate) will surely have a great impact onto the majority of the Romulans. And that will last for years and decades...
By the way "catch" is a interesting phrase for the behavior of the Republicans towards the TS. In many cases the "brave" and "noble" Republicans kill Tal Shiar members on the spot (in the Staging area and in the Vastam Peaks), while the BAD Tal'Shiar does not much more than bullying the Republican citizens he captures in the Vastam Peaks...;)
(Just responding to the last paragraph. I'm on my phone so I can't really cut out just that piece.)
Give me a break. Those Tal'Shiar are uniformed foreign military personnel engaged in acts of war against the Republic on sovereign Republic soil. What the Hell would you do?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Romulan disruptors canonically don't have stun settings.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Except the Republic uses plasma weapons, not disruptors. Not that those seem any safer, mind...
They'd be safer than antiproton. It's amazing my version of Veril doesn't explode every time she lets loose with that anti-Borg minigun I got her.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Though the only reason he does as well as he does, is because of the player in the singular story. Without your character, D'Tan would NEVER of accomplished so much. RR is literally built on the back of the player, and sometimes D'Tan does not give enough credit.
I think what D'Tan really needs to do, is restore that which was good about the Romulans, the republic, and get rid of that which failed, the Tal Shiar and the fear. Wanting to reuinte with the Vulcans, that's a good and bad idea. I think it should be encouraged to be friends and allow people to go freely between Vulcan and Mo'Rihan. But full reuniting, no I feel that is the wrong way to go.
But this also goes with the fact I think the Romulan should of been a full stand alone faction to begin with. But that's just me.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
yeah and it doesnt matter if you're using plasma, AP, tetryon, or whatever in the course of an STO mission... if they want you to 'stun' instead of 'kill' its just a line of text and 0 change in how ya play.
When you stop and think of it, D'Tan is simply continuing the work of his old mentor, Spock. And having recently re-watched "Reunification," I have now come to the realization that Spock was not only promoting reunification, but also promoting Vulcan culture and philosophy on Romulus as well. If any of the stuff he was promoting was post-Surak, then the argument can be made that he was trying to subvert Romulan culture in favour of Vulcan culture, which is a HUGE violation of the Prime Directive (not to mention incredibly arrogant).
I could be wrong, of course, but that episode didn't give me the impression that Spock was overly fond of Romulan culture. Then again, given how the Star Empire acted, I can hardly blame him.
Well I think that would be a very biased opionion of him, although I guess you see Spocks opinion right to at least 75 percent or so (I will consider that he may found some elements of Romulan culture he could "accept" or even would perhaps wished to see at more Vulcans, since he himself was a halfblood-Vulcan who drifted something away from being a "true" 100 percent follower of Surak in the years he served with the bunch of humans, I guess). But I mean, the RSE was much more than its warbirds and fighting squads. It has an culture on its own right, and I guess a rich one as any other species, which developed over thousands of years. People may not agree with their values but that is tricky. I mean, would you judge any human culture just after our today vales? Than for example the destruction of any culture who did not oppose slavery, the sacrifice of humans or conquering your neighbours would have a "bad" culture and were destroyed for good - what would include nearly all human civilizations of the human history. Sometimes I think that is a general problem in Star Trek - that even the writers have a huge problem with the Prime Directive (so to speak)...
So I think you are right - but also perhaps a bit wrong (you COULD blame him for thinking that way).
By the way, if D'Tan would be more like the man you choosed as nick-name...well, that would change a lot *g*
talonxv
I think many Romulans highly disagree that the Republic in its present status is anything good - and the RSE not. The RSE was (or still is) their home, and their families fought and died over centuries to build and defend it. The Republic has little of tradition they could remember on (they way it seems ogranized and act is different from the republican Empire the RSE was more or less over long time). It honours . at least as long as you listen to D'Tan too little the past of the Romulans (which means the RSE) and has not enough a open hand and heart for the Imperial Remnants and even TS-Members who just served the Empire as good as they could.
I agree that D'Tan far too much rely on the players help (but honour that with little more than some words)...about the question of full faction - well, I gues 95 percent of all Romulan players (I may be wrong) would agree to that. But it seems not on the horizon any soon...
General: About the taken prisoner question - well, I may be wrong. On the other hand it is never mentioned that you capture some, but looks much more like they been killed...
As for racism and discrimination, I have no doubt it will be prevalent for a while yet. It will cause issue for some time, but will fade.
Not sure where Protogoth got that bit about Obisek. I never saw or read anything about it and had been operating under the assumption that Obisek was merely working closely with the Republic for the time being. I have no doubt he and his people will formally join the Republic later, but I figured that wouldn't happen until many years down the line.
Spies and agents within Republic ranks is basically guaranteed, but I doubt the problem is as severe as one would expect. I would think the Republic has quite a few ex-Tal Shiar in their own ranks capable counterespionage operations.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
By relying so heavy on foreigners he alienate huge parts of the Romulan people (who surely also distrust him because he could not hide that he was member of a underground-movement most Romulans did not like much), and he reduced the possibility of the Romulans to acct independent. It was in the past (as far as I know) the policy of the Romulans never bind themself to anyone. Alliances for a limited time, yes - but keep a free hand to enlarge the Empire if there are chances. He had limited this possibility a lot. He also used a lot of men, ships and material to help Talaxians, Deferi, Kobali and others - while huge numbers of Romulans both on Second New Romulus and on other places life under very hard conditions. I think that many Romulans will lack understanding for such a behavior, to say it friendly.
By the way, his not very wise policy nearly resulted in the destruction of Second New Romulus when he played with powers he not really understand and even less could kept under controll - is that the behavior of a wise leader? He need a helping hand over and over again as it was pointed out already (different to the other leaders, I may add). So I agree he IS very dangerous (also because he had cloaked ships and the support of someone like Obisek with his weapons of mass destruction) but perhaps in another way than you mean it, and dangerours for the people he rule for now, too. Dangerours as a fool playing with handgrenades... *g*
I agree that the Republic's success is almost exclusively due to the player character. What about the contributions of other characters? How about Commander Jarok's contributions? What about Obisek's actions since his Reman Resistance joined the Republic? I think there should be more back story hinting at their actions and how the player's actions are coordinated with those NPCs to promote the Republic.
I do agree that D'Tan should be promoting the strengths of Romulan culture. If this is the fifth Romulan Republic, then D'Tan should be comparing it to the previous Republics and how by emulating the restoration of the values of the Republic benefits the people. PEACEFUL Restoration movements often win over people (in the long term) with honey as contrasted to the vinegar of violence and terror(which only works in the here and now, but quickly evaporates when the threat of violence is not regularly applied).
It would be the Romulans going back home to their father, admitting they ****ed it up, and need to stay under the protection of father's roof (Vulcan and the Federation)
Very good pointed out, I would say (unless it would come with the Vulcans openly saying that a lot what Surak wrote was wrong and that they want to adapt many elements of Romulan society and culture - what I have until now not noticed. Could anyone imagine the Vulcans saying: "We were wrong. Forgive us that we try to persuade you to our way of life. You had achieved so much, we want to learn from you..."
davidwford
I agree with what you say about the role of others - of course we see some people acting like the operatives in Delta Quadrant, but not much beyond that. Which is pitty.
But I think a Republic must by no mean be peaceful, not in any case internal and even much less in the way it handle foreign affairs. Republic and Empire are (in the Romulan case) nothing which could not be very well combined.
And I think the RSE was much much more than terror and violence (and many Romulans will see it so) - nearly none state which last over years (and the RSE lasted over centuries) work in this way. If we could see one thing in history, than that dictatorships in many cases have the support of a not-to-small minority (and sometimes even of a majority, who may not agree to all actions, but "right or wrong - my country!") of its people, or at least some kind of unspoken agreement with them. The terror is often "reserved" for certain groups and individuals (of course people, including members of the elite, could find themself easily placed in that group by "accident" or if they make a "wrong" move or if they fit with any rational or irrational idea of "enemies" of the State/ruling power). And the victims of terror are more than once even seen by the majority of the ordinary people with distrust, either because of propaganda or other reasons. In the RSE, I guess that was the fate of parts of the Remans and the Republicans/unificationists. But that surely did not bother most Romulans...
Perhaps 'Reconciliation' would be a more appropriate goal, an open exchange of ideas without giving up their separate character and culture. Even that would take generations.
--Red Annorax
The problem with this view is that it is one-sided; it assumes that the Romulans would be giving up everything, when the only way it could even potentially work would be if the Vulcans also made concessions. Frankly, I don't see the latter happening for another two or three generations, since the Syrannite Reform of Cthia has not yet been completed and the Vulcans have yet too strong a tendency to arrogance. Also, T'Nae must die.
Admiral Ripper? Yeah. She's a sadistic, racist psychopath who makes Kathryn "Let's ally with the Borg and shoot bioweapons at Species 8472!" Janeway look like the best Captain ever.
Hey, Starswordc! Want to have Kanril and D'trel meet up and take T'Nae to task?
If we are talking about disposing of the trash then, can someone can come and kill my clone of Tovan Khev? I have a Purple Reman ready to take his place on the bridge.
I went and re-watched the into to new Romulus cutscene after fist seeing this thread yesterday, and what D'Tan describes sounds more like reconciliation as he calls for walking side by side, then it does like Romulans wanting to become Vulcans.
I think the forum population here tends to portray D'Tan as much more pro-Vulcan than he really is. I have always gotten the impression from the game that he wants to take what is best about Vulcans and integrate it into Romulan society to make a better Romulan society, to move away form the secrecy, paranoia, and control of the old RSE.
Not really; she's got a decent excuse for not liking them. According to Kestral T'nae was an officer on one of the Starfleet relief vessels that Nero shot up after Hobus. Trying to extend a helping hand and pulling back a bloody stump would sour anyone. (This isn't in the game, mind, it's Word of God from an interview Kestral did with The Foundry Roundtable.) This on top of the Romulans' history of kidnapping and mistreating Vulcans. Remember Saavik from the TOS movies? She was always supposed to be half-Romulan although it never came up onscreen, and her EU backstory is that she was a child by r*pe of a Vulcan by a Romulan military officer during an attack on a Federation colony. T'nae's racism isn't strictly logical, but it is understandable.
The other thing is, when she sends the Romulan PC onward to Jim Kurland, she admits she misjudged the Romulans and the PC in particular. Willingness to admit she was wrong earned her some goodwill in my book.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Mmh. I thought it was an idea.
She's still got to be called to task for some of her orders...as does the PC for following them.
The only really questionable ones I remember are "Divide et Impera" and "Preemptive Strike".
You may be remembering others I forgot, though.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Basically the whole Fed rommie arc, from what I recall. Putting a Section 31 agent among the Empire, Preemptive Strike, the crud of DEI, there was at least one other that I can't recall ATM and I'll have to check.
I actually liked "Under the Cover of Night". Despite Frank Drake assisting in the operation, T'Par is Starfleet Intelligence, not Section 31. (Why Section 31 needed to be involved, I have no idea.) And a false flag operation like that is a classic way of building up somebody's cover ID. And you're supposed to feel used. Cryptic handled that mission extremely well.
Maybe it's not the Roddenberry ideal, but I've always subscribed to the notion that the spies and black ops people do the necessary dirty work so that the Picard types are free to moralize. Maybe it's hypocritical, maybe we're supposed to be better than that, but we can't afford to be "better". Remember what I said in the other thread about scoring pointless moral victories instead of doing your job?
"Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not wrestle with your conscience."
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Point, but I prefer to help people AND feel clean.
In my opinion, it's better long-term to help the Romulans honestly and honorably nonstop; eventually they WILL see the light. Don't put up with their BS, but don't f*ck them over and lie to them, either.
Hell, that's basically how the Republic and the Klingon Empire seem to be operating at this point.