hats off . this is decent news for some . but in any case if we like what you say or not actually talking to us is going to gain you some brownie points with some of us. even a pain in the A$$ Klingon with a chip on his shoulder about unworking costume slots for over 2 YEARS lol
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Why are HP boats considered more difficult or elite? doesn't make much sense to me.
Theoretically, since most players can't DPS them down in seconds anymore, they live longer and actually have a chance to put some hurt on you. This should make setups designed solely for damage with no defense/healing to speak of less appealing.
Personally, I think most of the Advanced STFs feel fine now. I used to purposely hold my damage back to get a feeling similar to what the game is providing for me now. Melting things isn't fun for me (on that note -- buff up the nanite generator health).
Yes, keep elite closed for most, good. (I just guess it would merit some more rewards.)
Lowering hull and shields on normal? Very much fine by me. I've seen many casuals struggle. And given the xp, no need for NPCs on normal to take any significant amount of time to overpower.
Lowering hull and shields on advanced? Well, I'd just say don't go overboard. I agree with (and even asked for) scaling advanced back, mainly because of the relation to rewards. But it'd be stupid if you went as far as to make advanced easier than old elite in queues, that I'd find a bad direction. Current advanced should be close to old elite (slightly more difficult due to new Mk gear and ships, though).
Also thanks for all the new threads, devs.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
On one hand, good to hear. HP bags aren't fun or difficult, just time consuming.
On the other, all these adjustments we're hearing about today.....was that the plan all along? Launch with everything jacked up, then carefully dial it back to find a 'right' point to stand? I know it makes me a conspiracy theorist, but it does kinda feel that way.
Doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist. It's a fairly common technique, very popular in politics e.g.
To push through decisions that you know will cause an uproar you simply fake a similar decision that's so drastically out of proportion that it has the potential to cause a revolt. You let people fume and scream and get mad about that drastic change for a while and when things are so steamed up that they're close to a boiling point, you backpedal to your original goal (best case scenario: You got a scapegoat whose head can roll ^^). People will feel that they have won the battle and you got what you wanted in the first place. Win-win. Kinda...
Anywho, I really like the fact that there's some (hopefully good) communication going on now. Chapeau, dev-team.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
The increase in communication is much, much appreciated. Please don't let the negativity discourage you. We all want this game to become better. Always some good gems among the chaos of the forums.
This news is very welcome. The bar for advanced, and in turn the improved gear available by playing advanced, seemed like it was still beyond reach for a newly minted level 50 still learning the ropes or not grouped correctly. Hopefully, this makes it so advanced PUGs can succeed even if not everyone is setup for max DPS.
Looking forward to word on reducing the emphasis on damage in this game. It was lovely seeing how important crowd control became in some STFs with the DR changes. I think tying optional goals into ship roles might be a good start provided the rewards for those optional goals make it worth it.
The increase in communication is much, much appreciated. Please don't let the negativity discourage you. We all want this game to become better. Always some good gems among the chaos of the forums.
This news is very welcome. The bar for advanced, and in turn the improved gear available by playing advanced, seemed like it was still beyond reach for a newly minted level 50 still learning the ropes or not grouped correctly. Hopefully, this makes it so advanced PUGs can succeed even if not everyone is setup for max DPS.
Looking forward to word on reducing the emphasis on damage in this game. It was lovely seeing how important crowd control became in some STFs with the DR changes. I think tying optional goals into ship roles might be a good start provided the rewards for those optional goals make it worth it.
Yes to all of this.
I wonder if this will make MIA puggable now.. I've been keeping an eye on the queue since the event went live and for every 100 players playing MIN, there would be maybe 5 total in MIA, if any at all, usually it's 0.
In any case, I hope some tweaks to the AI are in order* in addition to these HP changes. I've been rather pleased with the Vaadwaur for example.
*Yes yes, we all read Bort's post about the difficulty of doing a major AI overhaul, but some small tweaks here and there can still nudge it in the right direction.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
I think elite, both missions and stf's are the answer to inevitable power creep.
12 to 18 months from now when power creep makes advanced difficulty 'too easy' people will start flocking to elite because at that point player damage has scaled upwards a lot again.
That's my theory anyway. Current elite is not efficient with best endgame has to offer, so we can safely assume future endgame content will make us a more powerful over time (power creep).
Yep - I'd say that's the STO Dev team's line of thinking on this. Elite will be for the true min/maxers who may eventually find Advanced a true cakewalk at some future point (maybe 6 months to a year assuming players stick with the game). IMO you'll need a REALLY high DPS build to make it even marginally worth it but considering the point things got to after LoR was live for a while, it's not a bad Dev strategy in the long run. It'll be interesting to see IF the new Elite modes eventually become as easy as they were for min/maxers in the past.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
This is probably about as cynical as I can get in regards to the matter, but I have a feeling the idea was to see just how much players would bend.
You have marketing -- a necessary job for any MMO, but loathed by many as it carries a usually negative stigma with the job. Their job is to see just what players are willing to pay for, and to see just how much money they can squeeze from you. Their job is also to see what players won't pay for and pass that along to their superiors on what to let go of.
It's no secret that Cryptic thinks we've been gliding on easy street for a while, and they wanted to make the game more challenging. This ends up contradicting someone else's department in Cryptic whose job involves creating new ships and shinies to sell to the players.
When you have an expansion that simultaneously addresses the 'challenge' (or in some cases 'grind') factor, while offering monetized shinies like T6 ships and T5U upgrade tokens... you're faced with a perfect scenario of what not to do.
You have devs who I honestly believe have their heart in the right place, who are being directed by people (or at least their advice) in marketing who want to see how much can be monetized.
People, including myself, bought into the T5U upgrade begrudgingly. I did not enjoy it, but I wanted to see just how much better my ship upgrade would perform. That's $7 worth of zen for one ship, btw.
When people discover their T5U and T6 ships actually end up performing worse as a result of that other department in Cryptic wanting to make the game more challenging, you have a very bad first impression of what Delta Rising consists of.
Players do not want to perform worse than before. And certainly not when spending $7 on ships they likely already spent lots of money on expecting them to be the best help someone can get.
Factor in things like D'Angelo's call on removing spec points due to a mistake Cryptic made, and the understandable frustration with the lack of communication. Then throw in any other number of issues people have, such as the mastery grind, the dilithium 'adjustments', the item upgrade system, and what have you...
... and maybe you begin to understand Marketing has found their benchmark on what players are not willing to put up with.
Then you start to see changes people want to see. A free T5U ship upgrade token for veterans (which imo should have been there in the first place), more communication from Cryptic, an apology from Stephen D'Angelo, and no small amount of patches that are gradually granting concessions players have been asking for.
And that is all it comes down to, in my opinion. Marketing pushing the players too far into buying, combined with Cryptic's own game design decisions to give some longevity to the end game.
Two great tastes in an MMO update which do not by any means taste good together. That is Delta Rising.
I agree with your very well written post. Now, if only they would take these lessons and apply them to the crafting and upgrade systems...? I, for one, REALLY hate pouring endless amounts of dilithium into upgrading weapons only for it to take WAY too long to get results.
After playing a smooth, enjoyable game the past 2,5 years Im somewhat puzzled how suddenly you have such a hard time providing that with DR. What players mostly like about the prospect of a harder difficulty are more creatively acting NPCs which, as I can imagine, take a huge effort to be implemented.
As far as your endeavours are concerned I came to see 3 things.
1) More spawns: Yea thats a good thing and force me to act advanced.
2) More HP: It not only makes the difficulty not harder but at the same time kills the fun totally. In my opinion the hull hit pints of a certain opponent (eg. Borg Sphere) should remain static on all maps and all encounters and even all difficulty settings to give progressing people an understanding of what they are up against.
We will be noticeably reducing the HP and shields of all space critters from levels 51-60. This change will have more of an effect at level 60 than 51. This change will affect Basic and Advanced difficulty,
So yea you are on the right track I guess to restore endgame the way players were able to enjoy it before the Delta Rising launch.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Shortly after launch of Delta Rising, I made a post asking for your input on balance for levels 51-60 balance. I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for their input. Raising the level cap with 3 difficulty settings is a big task. The difference in skill and gear from one player to another can be very large, so getting the balance right can be a challenge.
A little over a week or so ago, we made some changes to difficulty. Based on additional feedback, as well as continuing data mining, we are in the process of making another pass. We will be noticeably reducing the HP and shields of all space critters from levels 51-60. This change will have more of an effect at level 60 than 51. This change will affect Basic and Advanced difficulty, but not affect Elite Difficulty.
Be sure to watch for additional posts from the devs on related changes. In relation to game difficulty, keep an eye out for posts on PvE queue difficulty as well as a post on changes to changes to rewards. Please focus your responses on the appropriate thread.
TBH I was really surprised at the move to just make the AI into massive hitpoint and shield boats. The damage from some of the Vaadwaur abilities was cool, but the offside was the defensively oriented enemies such as the Voth suddenly became nigh on impossible to kill (2hrs for a single ship??? That's ludicrous!).
Adjusting ships to match the progress of the player ships would be a start. Instead of having the AI ships have little to no weapons and basically be placeholders for NPC's. Have them have layouts similar to the player with appropriate weapons and damage outputs for the difficulty levels. Reduce the Health to closer resemble that of the players with Boss ships gaining an extra percentage to give more of a fight. Using the standard resists of the game you can reduce the damage the players can output to an enemy without giving them massive HP/SP increases. This in turn reduces the expectations of the players against enemies with 1.2M hitpoints vs the players 70-80,000 for a Battlecruiser.
Making the enemy dangerous without making them insta-killing monsters is the battle, rather than increasing duration of fight through HP/SP sinks. It's so important I had to state that twice
This is applicable globally throughout the game hence my response here.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
People, including myself, bought into the T5U upgrade begrudgingly. I did not enjoy it, but I wanted to see just how much better my ship upgrade would perform. That's $7 worth of zen for one ship, btw.
When people discover their T5U and T6 ships actually end up performing worse as a result of that other department in Cryptic wanting to make the game more challenging, you have a very bad first impression of what Delta Rising consists of.
Players do not want to perform worse than before. And certainly not when spending $7 on ships they likely already spent lots of money on expecting them to be the best help someone can get.
Hit the nail on the head with that point.
I have 2 characters I like to play, I spent $14 upgrading 1 ship each to T5-U and now I can't even take them in STF's because it either fails in the first 5 minutes or I spend 25 minutes in there for almost nothing.
One thing that will set people off in a hurry is having them pay more money to be effectively worse then they previously were. The massive change in the PVE ques made my T5-U Upgrades feel like money I effectively set on fire. The Elite Ques should have been the only ones that needed fully upgraded ships to complete. Making near maxed out builds necessary for any que above 'Normal' was a huge mistake.
Well, don't make too big a change on the advanced stuff, because once players start getting their T6 ships and upgrading their gear, these things won't be so difficult. The biggest problem right now is that most players haven't even started upgrading. I won't start until I finally get to lvl 15 in certain r&d schools and can make the best upgrade materials.
Took a peek at the Tribble Patch notes, left my response there... The only thing I'll add here is the graphics issues. Ever since DR launched the game has be beyond glitchy, worse than any previous update. I'm still getting the pixel shader error on log in, and every other log in attempt ends in my graphics drivers crashing... Or worse... BSOD. I run a very stable system, with a fairly new and completely up to date install of Win7, and nothing has ever BSOD'd my system until Delta Rising on STO. My computer actually ran a chkdsk, almost gave me the vapors. And EVERY time I log in my my browser crashes... Why is STO even affecting that?
Keep those lines of communication open, and get ready for an overhaul b/c this game needs an TRIBBLE. Our fleet's leadership has already begun to migrate to another game... From what I see on the forums ya'll can't keep up with the rage quit posts, people are leaving en mass.
Delirium Tremens
XO of Training
Tier 5 Starbase, Tier 3 Embassy, Tier 3 Dilithium Mine, Tier 3 Spire
Join us at www.dtfleet.com
This is probably about as cynical as I can get in regards to the matter, but I have a feeling the idea was to see just how much players would bend.
You have marketing -- a necessary job for any MMO, but loathed by many as it carries a usually negative stigma with the job. Their job is to see just what players are willing to pay for, and to see just how much money they can squeeze from you. Their job is also to see what players won't pay for and pass that along to their superiors on what to let go of.
It's no secret that Cryptic thinks we've been gliding on easy street for a while, and they wanted to make the game more challenging. This ends up contradicting someone else's department in Cryptic whose job involves creating new ships and shinies to sell to the players.
When you have an expansion that simultaneously addresses the 'challenge' (or in some cases 'grind') factor, while offering monetized shinies like T6 ships and T5U upgrade tokens... you're faced with a perfect scenario of what not to do.
You have devs who I honestly believe have their heart in the right place, who are being directed by people (or at least their advice) in marketing who want to see how much can be monetized.
People, including myself, bought into the T5U upgrade begrudgingly. I did not enjoy it, but I wanted to see just how much better my ship upgrade would perform. That's $7 worth of zen for one ship, btw.
When people discover their T5U and T6 ships actually end up performing worse as a result of that other department in Cryptic wanting to make the game more challenging, you have a very bad first impression of what Delta Rising consists of.
Players do not want to perform worse than before. And certainly not when spending $7 on ships they likely already spent lots of money on expecting them to be the best help someone can get.
Factor in things like D'Angelo's call on removing spec points due to a mistake Cryptic made, and the understandable frustration with the lack of communication. Then throw in any other number of issues people have, such as the mastery grind, the dilithium 'adjustments', the item upgrade system, and what have you...
... and maybe you begin to understand Marketing has found their benchmark on what players are not willing to put up with.
Then you start to see changes people want to see. A free T5U ship upgrade token for veterans (which imo should have been there in the first place), more communication from Cryptic, an apology from Stephen D'Angelo, and no small amount of patches that are gradually granting concessions players have been asking for.
And that is all it comes down to, in my opinion. Marketing pushing the players too far into buying, combined with Cryptic's own game design decisions to give some longevity to the end game.
Two great tastes in an MMO update which do not by any means taste good together. That is Delta Rising.
A most excellent analysis of the situation to be sure. I tend to agree with it for what salt that is worth.
A little over a week or so ago, we made some changes to difficulty. Based on additional feedback, as well as continuing data mining, we are in the process of making another pass. We will be noticeably reducing the HP and shields of all space critters from levels 51-60. This change will have more of an effect at level 60 than 51. This change will affect Basic and Advanced difficulty, but not affect Elite Difficulty.
[..]
Al Captain Geko Rivera
@OP - Thanks for the information. It is appreciated to say the least. I would not invest many resources into redoing the normal as I dont think most players have any issues other than the lack of rewards which in anther thread just posted we were told were being revised upward again.
I would focus hard on the advanced and elite areas. The advanced should not have required and broken "optionals". They should be just that bonus things.
The elite is well.... I'm not a twitch fest kind of person and I have high ping to boot so on principle I dont like timed anything but if there must be timers than increase them at least 25% for now and see what happens from there along with a about the same in reduction of HP of the NPCs until the AI gets a good going over to say the least.
For what it is worth, there are several of us here that would LOVE to help you develop a new AI or even scripts if you would give us the opportunity. Hell, Even doing a player "hotseat" type of STF as an elite would add some serious juice to the game and be a major selling point methinks but I digress...
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
Alrighty then! 1st, thank you for deigning to notice us. Bloody well took you long enough. :P
Seriously, I do appreciate it. Just wish the forums did not have to go all flamey to remind you guys that
a) Communicating with customers is good.
b) We customers have posted what we have posted mostly from a genuine love of Star Trek.
c) We customers have posted what we have posted because we want Star Trek Online to succeed. Probably moreso than pwe/cryptic
d) All of the above.
Improving the rewards for the STFs from the abysmally ridiculous pittance they are right now is a step in the correct direction. One. Single. Step. So don't go patting yourself on the back just yet. Same goes for all of us who have posted what we've posted concerning "the most successful launch ever!" The rope got yanked about three centimeters our way, nothing more.
Leaving the "New! Improved!" Elite level NPCs "as is" is also one step in the right direction. The DPS crowd should have a place where they get to maximize the usage of those monsters they've spent money on.
I read what Bort wrote about improving the AI. Some of it is justified. I know from personal experience working up a proper AI can be difficult. I also know from personal experience working up a proper AI is doable. All it takes is will power and time.
Perhaps improving the AI can be moved to a back burner. Something which is worked on during the slack time which occurs in all work. I'd very much like the AI to use the ships/abilities it is given much more intelligently. I'd also like the AI to have different flavors. I do not think Cardassian NPC groupings should move and shoot exactly the same as say, Reman NPC groupings. The thought someone is working on this is enough for now. Along with the thought that some day I will get to play against such an AI in STO.
However what we have on these forums are just words. Things the Dev Team says it is going to do.
"The play! The play's the thing. Wherein we'll catch the conscience of the King!"
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
So Advanced is being made into the new easy queue. Fine.
Can we now have a intermediary queue between the "advanced" queue and elite, so those of us who could do advanced just fine can still have a challenge?
So Advanced is being made into the new easy queue. Fine.
Can we now have a intermediary queue between the "advanced" queue and elite, so those of us who could do advanced just fine can still have a challenge?
WTF is wrong with you?
If you are too good for advanced go play Elite, its that simple. We all want the game fixed and you want to complicate it more with another game mode..go away please.
Shortly after launch of Delta Rising, I made a post asking for your input on balance for levels 51-60 balance. I wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for their input. Raising the level cap with 3 difficulty settings is a big task. The difference in skill and gear from one player to another can be very large, so getting the balance right can be a challenge.
A little over a week or so ago, we made some changes to difficulty. Based on additional feedback, as well as continuing data mining, we are in the process of making another pass. We will be noticeably reducing the HP and shields of all space critters from levels 51-60. This change will have more of an effect at level 60 than 51. This change will affect Basic and Advanced difficulty, but not affect Elite Difficulty.
Be sure to watch for additional posts from the devs on related changes. In relation to game difficulty, keep an eye out for posts on PvE queue difficulty as well as a post on changes to changes to rewards. Please focus your responses on the appropriate thread.
LLAP
Al Captain Geko Rivera
that makes number 3 of the changes cryptic had to backtrack on, especially with a united voice on the forums. but hey, you dont learn if you dont make mistakes. at least cryptic didnt full out apologize for the mistake, i wouldnt of been impressed by it. a big company like cryptic needs to keep its head but learn all the same.
cant wait to get around to advanced difficulty on tuesday assuming the patch is slated for then.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Something that needs adjustment the most is the stupid fleet alert. It fails a LOT with pugs. The enemy now are using a lot more shield bypass damage and hit very hard. The base can't take the hits, the players can't take the hits, and its a mess.
This is a mission that you can join at a very low level, and seems to have been intended for folks that are not geared to get a few fleet marks. Now, it is on par with the NWS in terms of difficulty when playing with ungeared random groups.
Tribble notes look fantastic. Thank you for addressing this quickly. I hope to see all of my favorites filling back up after mirror ends.
p.s. there are some that need individual love. i don't believe viscous cycle can be completed with that rift and gekli optional for example? Also if the fail % on Rhihlo station is above 50% can you please give an extra minute in part 2. My fail percentage is 100% with level 14 equipment and the TR rifle.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
@Geko - if you are serious about getting rid of exploits, I'll give you a bone but one I think your metrics should have shown you a long time ago which is why people running Japori really did not thing they were exploiting - really.
You may have heard the term "dino tag" and likely mistook it for the dino version of the Romulan rabbit tag but it is not. What it is, is players running from dino boss to dino boss doing one or two shots so they show on the damage meter and going to the next one and the next -etc....
They of course get full credit for each kill as if they were there the whole time and ran it three or more times from the start. If you want to take out an exploit then that would be a good one methinks....
A quick fix would simply be to make all players be within 200 meters of the boss when it dies for credit.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
@Geko - if you are serious about getting rid of exploits, I'll give you a bone but one I think your metrics should have shown you a long time ago which is why people running Japori really did not thing they were exploiting - really.
You may have heard the term "dino tag" and likely mistook it for the dino version of the Romulan rabbit tag but it is not. What it is, is players running from dino boss to dino boss doing one or two shots so they show on the damage meter and going to the next one and the next -etc....
They of course get full credit for each kill as if they were there the whole time and ran it three or more times from the start. If you want to take out an exploit then that would be a good one methinks....
A quick fix would simply be to make all players be within 200 meters of the boss when it dies for credit.
For the small amount of reward you get for killing the dino, I don't really think that's an 'exploit'. Sure, it's annoying when you see people doing it, but the fix you suggest could punish people unjustly.
For example, there are times when people leave one dino because they see another location is falling too fast so they run to try and stop it being lost. If they've helped get a dino to half health or below but then ran off to save us losing one of the silos, they would lose out on the reward for the first dino under your system. That's unfair because they are not 'exploiting', they are actually helping everybody in the zone by preventing the loss of one of the silos.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
If you are too good for advanced go play Elite, its that simple. We all want the game fixed and you want to complicate it more with another game mode..go away please.
Bloating enemy HP isn't fixing the game. Calling enemies advanced or elite when they aren't isn't helping anything.
If cryptic wanted to fix the game they'd make core adjustments to the missions.
-Tiered AIs is required, enemies need to use more complicated tactics, abilities and weapons on higher difficulties.
-Weapon damage needs to scale up, but the poor AI is using low quantity of high damage attacks, which allow for one shot kills if scaled too high. The system needs changing.
-Randomization of mission elements, including surprise objectives, unpredictable waves of enemies or ships that force the team to react and be dynamic. Even if its just a ship that needs to disengage to hold open something. Things that need a serious change of the normal play through approach to deal with, and there needs to be enough that you can't have a set way to handle each one. On elite, multiple should/could happen at a time.
They could spend a whole season doing this to every queue mission, it'd make the game pretty great again. Not sure how'd they rip you off for it though.
Posting this from another thread. But I agree with the majority of folks who state that HP strength is heavily weighted toward the top percentile of DPS players leaving lower DPS players struggling. But if you tweak the HP down then top elite DPS players are then left in the cold...solution/post below
I'm a casual player and I'm getting the feeling that high end players are skewing the experience for players like myself as they continue to increase their damage output and complain about non challenging gamaplay. I understand their complaint. When I've had time to invest into other games and take my game play to its max the computer just doesn't offer competition any more. But those on the lower end of the spectrum suffer when the upper echelon's get their buffed challenge.
My suggestion to STO is consider implementing adaptive AI and scaled challenge (read: NPC HP/shield/damage) per player. You can modify this mechanic for team content like PVE and PVP queues, perhaps even leave them as is, but for single player the adaptive mechanic should be implemented.
What is in place now and with recent changes I'm really feeling like I have to buy a certain ship and have a certain build or gear, as though i'm being forced into a single cookie cutter setup to play the game. In addition the "challenge" presented, as we have all been complaining about for decades with many games, is just an NPC with more HP and shields. With Adaptive AI you can create more of a custom challenge for each player without implementing broad changes with are invariably effective to some players and not so much to a majority of others.
This would also solve an issue of programming a single behavior for each ship of advanced AI that would still result in the same problem, some players will enjoy it while a majority of others it won't. In fact, you already have some adaptive AI already but it can be enhanced, in particular with respect to NPC HP/damage/shield numbers.
An example would be:
If I'm playing on normal and run through an FE mission against Klingon's for example and I run through the bird of preys with a certain ability and tactic. During that mission the AI would have some counter moves but wouldn't be able to really stand a chance against some of my abilities as they weren't prepared for it in battle. But the next mission in the episode and all future encounters with a BoP they would be prepared and that tactic wouldn't work that well anymore, forcing me to change my tactics to defeat them. NPC's would use different abilities or tactics. In this way I always have to adjust.
Also, with Adaptive AI you can adjust NPC HP/damage/shields according to the type of damage I'm causing. Think of it as the faction returns home and upgrades it ships to deal with the new threat. In a way you are creating a personalize space race. If I'm causing say only 5K dps worth of damage the NPC's scale their HP accordingly for each tier of normal, advance and elite based of my of dps. So I wouldn't run across a BoP with 100K HP. Conversely if I'm causing say 101K dps the NPC's would scale to be able to provide a challenge to that player.
Again, NPC HP could remain a static value for team content weighted to the most powerful rank player which puts that player squarely in the driver seat while the rest have to support or be exra creative. But for individual play the adaptive AI would work best. It's a single program mechanic that doesn't need to be scaled so often or dramatically, it self scales. And with team content (which would include an single player content which players team up on like missions) you give players a reason to upgrade their gear/build to remain competitive in those areas.
The XP would work on this scale as well or it can remain static on the current normal/advanced/elite levels since NPC HP/damage/shields would always be a calculation based on the individual players dps.
I think this would also help provide more controlled 'nerfing' as folks like to call rather than game mechanic changes that solve a problem for one percentage of users but then create game play issues for others.
Eager to try the changes out and thumbs up for the communication.
Glancing at the above post my initial reaction is some players demand the best rewards it's their right! They will go in to elite not having even touched normal or advanced and expect to beat it or others to carry them. Why do a mission that gives half the dilithium when you can get twice as much and lean on your team do pick up your slack?
I'm not saying all players are like this but I bet there are enough around that come lv60 they'll be trying to do elite some having not even touched normal/advanced and either get what they want or cry about it. It's shocking when some say 'it's my first time' or 'what do we do?/i don't know what to do'. Elites are after all meant for high end premades and unless it's virutally impossible even with epic stuff it should remain difficult to beat. If you find it too tough or not good enough then there are 2 easier modes. Somehow I doubt everyone will respect this and want their elite reward.
If though elite is only beatable with 5 100k dps builds then yes I'll agree with your statement 1 difficulty for that tiny percentage seems a waste. Personally I think players (myself too) need to up our specifisation, ship traits etc and then try in organised groups a few times before nerfing elite.
I'm just going to say that disliking fighting huge buffers of hit points was the reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 (beautiful game, clunkier action combat to Neverwinter).
The same applies to this game. I've been reducing how much I played simply because 'fun' wasn't what I was getting out of it past the new campaign missions. Not that I lost hope in the game... but I figured your metrics would speak for us and that you'd adjust accordingly.
I'm glad to see that this is happening.
Oh, and I also want to see Romulan female dual shoulder pads fixed to how they were before (see Romulan male dual shoulderpads)... but that's another issue.
Comments
Theoretically, since most players can't DPS them down in seconds anymore, they live longer and actually have a chance to put some hurt on you. This should make setups designed solely for damage with no defense/healing to speak of less appealing.
Personally, I think most of the Advanced STFs feel fine now. I used to purposely hold my damage back to get a feeling similar to what the game is providing for me now. Melting things isn't fun for me (on that note -- buff up the nanite generator health).
Lowering hull and shields on normal? Very much fine by me. I've seen many casuals struggle. And given the xp, no need for NPCs on normal to take any significant amount of time to overpower.
Lowering hull and shields on advanced? Well, I'd just say don't go overboard. I agree with (and even asked for) scaling advanced back, mainly because of the relation to rewards. But it'd be stupid if you went as far as to make advanced easier than old elite in queues, that I'd find a bad direction. Current advanced should be close to old elite (slightly more difficult due to new Mk gear and ships, though).
Also thanks for all the new threads, devs.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist. It's a fairly common technique, very popular in politics e.g.
To push through decisions that you know will cause an uproar you simply fake a similar decision that's so drastically out of proportion that it has the potential to cause a revolt. You let people fume and scream and get mad about that drastic change for a while and when things are so steamed up that they're close to a boiling point, you backpedal to your original goal (best case scenario: You got a scapegoat whose head can roll ^^). People will feel that they have won the battle and you got what you wanted in the first place. Win-win. Kinda...
Anywho, I really like the fact that there's some (hopefully good) communication going on now. Chapeau, dev-team.
This news is very welcome. The bar for advanced, and in turn the improved gear available by playing advanced, seemed like it was still beyond reach for a newly minted level 50 still learning the ropes or not grouped correctly. Hopefully, this makes it so advanced PUGs can succeed even if not everyone is setup for max DPS.
Looking forward to word on reducing the emphasis on damage in this game. It was lovely seeing how important crowd control became in some STFs with the DR changes. I think tying optional goals into ship roles might be a good start provided the rewards for those optional goals make it worth it.
Yes to all of this.
I wonder if this will make MIA puggable now.. I've been keeping an eye on the queue since the event went live and for every 100 players playing MIN, there would be maybe 5 total in MIA, if any at all, usually it's 0.
In any case, I hope some tweaks to the AI are in order* in addition to these HP changes. I've been rather pleased with the Vaadwaur for example.
*Yes yes, we all read Bort's post about the difficulty of doing a major AI overhaul, but some small tweaks here and there can still nudge it in the right direction.
Joined January 2009
Yep - I'd say that's the STO Dev team's line of thinking on this. Elite will be for the true min/maxers who may eventually find Advanced a true cakewalk at some future point (maybe 6 months to a year assuming players stick with the game). IMO you'll need a REALLY high DPS build to make it even marginally worth it but considering the point things got to after LoR was live for a while, it's not a bad Dev strategy in the long run. It'll be interesting to see IF the new Elite modes eventually become as easy as they were for min/maxers in the past.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Perfect.. thank you!
We appreciate the updates and the work you're doing to 'right the ship.'
Communication is very important and the updates are appreciated.
I agree with your very well written post. Now, if only they would take these lessons and apply them to the crafting and upgrade systems...? I, for one, REALLY hate pouring endless amounts of dilithium into upgrading weapons only for it to take WAY too long to get results.
After playing a smooth, enjoyable game the past 2,5 years Im somewhat puzzled how suddenly you have such a hard time providing that with DR. What players mostly like about the prospect of a harder difficulty are more creatively acting NPCs which, as I can imagine, take a huge effort to be implemented.
As far as your endeavours are concerned I came to see 3 things.
1) More spawns: Yea thats a good thing and force me to act advanced.
2) More HP: It not only makes the difficulty not harder but at the same time kills the fun totally. In my opinion the hull hit pints of a certain opponent (eg. Borg Sphere) should remain static on all maps and all encounters and even all difficulty settings to give progressing people an understanding of what they are up against.
So yea you are on the right track I guess to restore endgame the way players were able to enjoy it before the Delta Rising launch.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
TBH I was really surprised at the move to just make the AI into massive hitpoint and shield boats. The damage from some of the Vaadwaur abilities was cool, but the offside was the defensively oriented enemies such as the Voth suddenly became nigh on impossible to kill (2hrs for a single ship??? That's ludicrous!).
Adjusting ships to match the progress of the player ships would be a start. Instead of having the AI ships have little to no weapons and basically be placeholders for NPC's. Have them have layouts similar to the player with appropriate weapons and damage outputs for the difficulty levels. Reduce the Health to closer resemble that of the players with Boss ships gaining an extra percentage to give more of a fight. Using the standard resists of the game you can reduce the damage the players can output to an enemy without giving them massive HP/SP increases. This in turn reduces the expectations of the players against enemies with 1.2M hitpoints vs the players 70-80,000 for a Battlecruiser.
Making the enemy dangerous without making them insta-killing monsters is the battle, rather than increasing duration of fight through HP/SP sinks. It's so important I had to state that twice
This is applicable globally throughout the game hence my response here.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Hit the nail on the head with that point.
I have 2 characters I like to play, I spent $14 upgrading 1 ship each to T5-U and now I can't even take them in STF's because it either fails in the first 5 minutes or I spend 25 minutes in there for almost nothing.
One thing that will set people off in a hurry is having them pay more money to be effectively worse then they previously were. The massive change in the PVE ques made my T5-U Upgrades feel like money I effectively set on fire. The Elite Ques should have been the only ones that needed fully upgraded ships to complete. Making near maxed out builds necessary for any que above 'Normal' was a huge mistake.
Keep those lines of communication open, and get ready for an overhaul b/c this game needs an TRIBBLE. Our fleet's leadership has already begun to migrate to another game... From what I see on the forums ya'll can't keep up with the rage quit posts, people are leaving en mass.
XO of Training
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A most excellent analysis of the situation to be sure. I tend to agree with it for what salt that is worth.
@OP - Thanks for the information. It is appreciated to say the least. I would not invest many resources into redoing the normal as I dont think most players have any issues other than the lack of rewards which in anther thread just posted we were told were being revised upward again.
I would focus hard on the advanced and elite areas. The advanced should not have required and broken "optionals". They should be just that bonus things.
The elite is well.... I'm not a twitch fest kind of person and I have high ping to boot so on principle I dont like timed anything but if there must be timers than increase them at least 25% for now and see what happens from there along with a about the same in reduction of HP of the NPCs until the AI gets a good going over to say the least.
For what it is worth, there are several of us here that would LOVE to help you develop a new AI or even scripts if you would give us the opportunity. Hell, Even doing a player "hotseat" type of STF as an elite would add some serious juice to the game and be a major selling point methinks but I digress...
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Seriously, I do appreciate it. Just wish the forums did not have to go all flamey to remind you guys that
a) Communicating with customers is good.
b) We customers have posted what we have posted mostly from a genuine love of Star Trek.
c) We customers have posted what we have posted because we want Star Trek Online to succeed. Probably moreso than pwe/cryptic
d) All of the above.
Improving the rewards for the STFs from the abysmally ridiculous pittance they are right now is a step in the correct direction. One. Single. Step. So don't go patting yourself on the back just yet. Same goes for all of us who have posted what we've posted concerning "the most successful launch ever!" The rope got yanked about three centimeters our way, nothing more.
Leaving the "New! Improved!" Elite level NPCs "as is" is also one step in the right direction. The DPS crowd should have a place where they get to maximize the usage of those monsters they've spent money on.
I read what Bort wrote about improving the AI. Some of it is justified. I know from personal experience working up a proper AI can be difficult. I also know from personal experience working up a proper AI is doable. All it takes is will power and time.
Perhaps improving the AI can be moved to a back burner. Something which is worked on during the slack time which occurs in all work. I'd very much like the AI to use the ships/abilities it is given much more intelligently. I'd also like the AI to have different flavors. I do not think Cardassian NPC groupings should move and shoot exactly the same as say, Reman NPC groupings. The thought someone is working on this is enough for now. Along with the thought that some day I will get to play against such an AI in STO.
However what we have on these forums are just words. Things the Dev Team says it is going to do.
"The play! The play's the thing. Wherein we'll catch the conscience of the King!"
Can we now have a intermediary queue between the "advanced" queue and elite, so those of us who could do advanced just fine can still have a challenge?
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
WTF is wrong with you?
If you are too good for advanced go play Elite, its that simple. We all want the game fixed and you want to complicate it more with another game mode..go away please.
that makes number 3 of the changes cryptic had to backtrack on, especially with a united voice on the forums. but hey, you dont learn if you dont make mistakes. at least cryptic didnt full out apologize for the mistake, i wouldnt of been impressed by it. a big company like cryptic needs to keep its head but learn all the same.
cant wait to get around to advanced difficulty on tuesday assuming the patch is slated for then.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
This is a mission that you can join at a very low level, and seems to have been intended for folks that are not geared to get a few fleet marks. Now, it is on par with the NWS in terms of difficulty when playing with ungeared random groups.
p.s. there are some that need individual love. i don't believe viscous cycle can be completed with that rift and gekli optional for example? Also if the fail % on Rhihlo station is above 50% can you please give an extra minute in part 2. My fail percentage is 100% with level 14 equipment and the TR rifle.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You may have heard the term "dino tag" and likely mistook it for the dino version of the Romulan rabbit tag but it is not. What it is, is players running from dino boss to dino boss doing one or two shots so they show on the damage meter and going to the next one and the next -etc....
They of course get full credit for each kill as if they were there the whole time and ran it three or more times from the start. If you want to take out an exploit then that would be a good one methinks....
A quick fix would simply be to make all players be within 200 meters of the boss when it dies for credit.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
For the small amount of reward you get for killing the dino, I don't really think that's an 'exploit'. Sure, it's annoying when you see people doing it, but the fix you suggest could punish people unjustly.
For example, there are times when people leave one dino because they see another location is falling too fast so they run to try and stop it being lost. If they've helped get a dino to half health or below but then ran off to save us losing one of the silos, they would lose out on the reward for the first dino under your system. That's unfair because they are not 'exploiting', they are actually helping everybody in the zone by preventing the loss of one of the silos.
Bloating enemy HP isn't fixing the game. Calling enemies advanced or elite when they aren't isn't helping anything.
If cryptic wanted to fix the game they'd make core adjustments to the missions.
-Tiered AIs is required, enemies need to use more complicated tactics, abilities and weapons on higher difficulties.
-Weapon damage needs to scale up, but the poor AI is using low quantity of high damage attacks, which allow for one shot kills if scaled too high. The system needs changing.
-Randomization of mission elements, including surprise objectives, unpredictable waves of enemies or ships that force the team to react and be dynamic. Even if its just a ship that needs to disengage to hold open something. Things that need a serious change of the normal play through approach to deal with, and there needs to be enough that you can't have a set way to handle each one. On elite, multiple should/could happen at a time.
They could spend a whole season doing this to every queue mission, it'd make the game pretty great again. Not sure how'd they rip you off for it though.
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I'm a casual player and I'm getting the feeling that high end players are skewing the experience for players like myself as they continue to increase their damage output and complain about non challenging gamaplay. I understand their complaint. When I've had time to invest into other games and take my game play to its max the computer just doesn't offer competition any more. But those on the lower end of the spectrum suffer when the upper echelon's get their buffed challenge.
My suggestion to STO is consider implementing adaptive AI and scaled challenge (read: NPC HP/shield/damage) per player. You can modify this mechanic for team content like PVE and PVP queues, perhaps even leave them as is, but for single player the adaptive mechanic should be implemented.
What is in place now and with recent changes I'm really feeling like I have to buy a certain ship and have a certain build or gear, as though i'm being forced into a single cookie cutter setup to play the game. In addition the "challenge" presented, as we have all been complaining about for decades with many games, is just an NPC with more HP and shields. With Adaptive AI you can create more of a custom challenge for each player without implementing broad changes with are invariably effective to some players and not so much to a majority of others.
This would also solve an issue of programming a single behavior for each ship of advanced AI that would still result in the same problem, some players will enjoy it while a majority of others it won't. In fact, you already have some adaptive AI already but it can be enhanced, in particular with respect to NPC HP/damage/shield numbers.
An example would be:
If I'm playing on normal and run through an FE mission against Klingon's for example and I run through the bird of preys with a certain ability and tactic. During that mission the AI would have some counter moves but wouldn't be able to really stand a chance against some of my abilities as they weren't prepared for it in battle. But the next mission in the episode and all future encounters with a BoP they would be prepared and that tactic wouldn't work that well anymore, forcing me to change my tactics to defeat them. NPC's would use different abilities or tactics. In this way I always have to adjust.
Also, with Adaptive AI you can adjust NPC HP/damage/shields according to the type of damage I'm causing. Think of it as the faction returns home and upgrades it ships to deal with the new threat. In a way you are creating a personalize space race. If I'm causing say only 5K dps worth of damage the NPC's scale their HP accordingly for each tier of normal, advance and elite based of my of dps. So I wouldn't run across a BoP with 100K HP. Conversely if I'm causing say 101K dps the NPC's would scale to be able to provide a challenge to that player.
Again, NPC HP could remain a static value for team content weighted to the most powerful rank player which puts that player squarely in the driver seat while the rest have to support or be exra creative. But for individual play the adaptive AI would work best. It's a single program mechanic that doesn't need to be scaled so often or dramatically, it self scales. And with team content (which would include an single player content which players team up on like missions) you give players a reason to upgrade their gear/build to remain competitive in those areas.
The XP would work on this scale as well or it can remain static on the current normal/advanced/elite levels since NPC HP/damage/shields would always be a calculation based on the individual players dps.
I think this would also help provide more controlled 'nerfing' as folks like to call rather than game mechanic changes that solve a problem for one percentage of users but then create game play issues for others.
Glancing at the above post my initial reaction is some players demand the best rewards it's their right! They will go in to elite not having even touched normal or advanced and expect to beat it or others to carry them. Why do a mission that gives half the dilithium when you can get twice as much and lean on your team do pick up your slack?
I'm not saying all players are like this but I bet there are enough around that come lv60 they'll be trying to do elite some having not even touched normal/advanced and either get what they want or cry about it. It's shocking when some say 'it's my first time' or 'what do we do?/i don't know what to do'. Elites are after all meant for high end premades and unless it's virutally impossible even with epic stuff it should remain difficult to beat. If you find it too tough or not good enough then there are 2 easier modes. Somehow I doubt everyone will respect this and want their elite reward.
If though elite is only beatable with 5 100k dps builds then yes I'll agree with your statement 1 difficulty for that tiny percentage seems a waste. Personally I think players (myself too) need to up our specifisation, ship traits etc and then try in organised groups a few times before nerfing elite.
I look forward to these changes, I know had several fleetmates who have been struggling even solo.
The same applies to this game. I've been reducing how much I played simply because 'fun' wasn't what I was getting out of it past the new campaign missions. Not that I lost hope in the game... but I figured your metrics would speak for us and that you'd adjust accordingly.
I'm glad to see that this is happening.
Oh, and I also want to see Romulan female dual shoulder pads fixed to how they were before (see Romulan male dual shoulderpads)... but that's another issue.