You're not going to the divine treasury if you are resurrected as a mutant abomination that doesn't care about profit.
Of course, if one can afford to pay for the real white-glove treatment from the Kobali to ensure there is no residual memory and the soul is cleanly dispatched to the hereafter, I think the Blessed Exchequer would appreciate the lobes behind that successful gamble.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
When I first played the Kobali missions, I really felt uneasy helping them. Their reanimation and conversion practice just didn't feel Federation to me. I actually went back to Voyager and watched the episode "Ashes to Ashes" to get a better understanding of the character. And I will say that the Kobali have started to grow on me as a species. I can believe it is possible to TRIBBLE up your ability to procreate to the point that it is lost. As for reanimation, it takes a little more imagination to see that. For me, what best describes them is: Frankenstein Zombie Aliens.
I do have to agree that I did find it troublesome and amusing when having them be in charge of medical and the fact that their pop window come up multiple times. As others have stated, you don't let someone who wants dead people access to the "dying". Nonetheless, the Federation does believe in giving the benefit of the doubt to all species.
I do wish there was more information on the history and culture of the Kobali. Regardless of their ghoulish procreative works, there might be an even fascinating story. I do wonder if the Borg ever assimilated the Kobali.
With regards to Harry Kim, it looks like his girlfriend did find him floating in space after all. I would like to see Harry Kim #1 become Kobali, if for no other reason, to be united with the love of earlier life. Even better, would be to have Captain Harry Kim meet up with Kobali Harry Kim. Just something to think about.
Never on these forums have I seen such a fundamental lack of anything remotely resembling Federation ideals than in these Kobali hate threads.
The Kobali do one single solitary thing that could be considered distasteful at best, but are otherwise a wholly benevolent species. Hating on them for that one thing is no different than hating Muslims and crying about oppression of women because of certain styles they wear. It's ignorant, closed-minded, and backwards. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
I will surely not be ashamed because I criticize a concept for a fictional race that does not make sense. I never touched any of their morals, I don't even get there because I immedeatly abandoned their species design as nonsensical. But if I were to "judge" morals, the VOY episode in question is pretty clear about the fact that they would kill hundreds of people before they let someone who regained their original memories "escape", so there is also that
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Never on these forums have I seen such a fundamental lack of anything remotely resembling Federation ideals than in these Kobali hate threads.
The Kobali do one single solitary thing that could be considered distasteful at best, but are otherwise a wholly benevolent species. Hating on them for that one thing is no different than hating Muslims and crying about oppression of women because of certain styles they wear. It's ignorant, closed-minded, and backwards. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
You should be ashamed of yourself, you assume that everyone here is a Federation player?
But seriously its not the same thing, for one the Kobali are not real and even if they were first contact (or second in this case) are a uneasy thing, sometimes it takes a while to get past those boundaries.
i think a little quest looking into them would have been nice for the delta rep, like the rommie and dyson one.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Never on these forums have I seen such a fundamental lack of anything remotely resembling Federation ideals than in these Kobali hate threads.
The Kobali do one single solitary thing that could be considered distasteful at best, but are otherwise a wholly benevolent species. Hating on them for that one thing is no different than hating Muslims and crying about oppression of women because of certain styles they wear. It's ignorant, closed-minded, and backwards. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
......here's the problem with the Kobali. While you seem to be all indignant and 'that's hardly living up to Federation ideals' about the Kobali practicing a little necromancy, you seem totally OK with ignoring the myriad of cultures (including apparently the Vaadwar) for whom what the do is a gross violation of their deeply held cultural beliefs. Are those cultures' somehow less important than the Kobali? And for the record.....grave robbing goes a little beyond 'distasteful'. This arc's big problem (from an in-game PC standpoint), is that it allows no ethical decision on the part of the PC. The one point where it crops up, some random Starfleet Captain shows up to lecture you on 'Cultural Understanding'. Considering I was a Vice Admiral, I was really looking for the player option that allowed me to remind her I was a Flag Officer, and when I wanted her opinion I'd get supply to issue it to her.
Isnt that like putting a child molestor in charge of a day care center.
yeah, I can see the Kobali going:
"Gee, sorry we couldn't save anyone how was wounded and return them to their original planets/homes/families; but hey at least they'll have a new and fulfilling life with us, right?":eek::D;)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
"Gee, sorry we couldn't save anyone how was wounded and return them to their original planets/homes/families; but hey at least they'll have a new and fulfilling life with us, right?":eek::D;)
Nothing would point to them being likely to do that. Very out of character for that to happen from anything presenting on screen or in game.
I see it as more of everyone under their care suddenly having a donor card. When you fill out an organ donor card and carry it with you, do you trust the EMT that's in charge of saving your life in an accident? Or do you worry that he'll find your wallet and decide to "help you along" because he knows of a sick 9 year old girl back at the hospital that needs a new liver? At the end of the day you're still putting your life in someone else's hands. The only productive worry you should logically have is their competency, because if you have an incompetent medic, you're dead either way.
I wonder if Starfleet is going to have donor card that will donate their bodies to the Kobali.
Never on these forums have I seen such a fundamental lack of anything remotely resembling Federation ideals than in these Kobali hate threads.
The Kobali do one single solitary thing that could be considered distasteful at best, but are otherwise a wholly benevolent species. Hating on them for that one thing is no different than hating Muslims and crying about oppression of women because of certain styles they wear. It's ignorant, closed-minded, and backwards. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Underlining added by me for emphasis.
Distasteful?
Stealing corpses is merely distasteful to you?
I don't know about you, but I consider such an act to be (1) theft, (2) a grievous violation of fundamental religious liberties, and (3) completely disrespectful of the cultures and beliefs of other peoples.
The only POSSIBLE way that the Kobali could justify their actions is by claiming that they are superior to all other species and that all other species are not only subservient to, but exist for the sole purpose of serving the Kobali.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
The Kobali deserve to have total war waged upon them until they halt their practice of stealing corpses completely and without exception regardless of the consequences to their species. They should stop stealing corpses even if it means they go extinct.
Self preservation is NOT, and has never been an ethical justification for violating the fundamental rights of others.
If your choices are to either violate another person's rights or die, then the only just, ethical, and moral course of action is to accept death with dignity and respect the rights of others.
A person does not have a right to violate the rights of others just to save his or her own life.
I don't know about you, but I consider such an act to be (1) theft, (2) a grievous violation of fundamental religious liberties, and (3) completely disrespectful of the cultures and beliefs of other peoples.
The only POSSIBLE way that the Kobali could justify their actions is by claiming that they are superior to all other species and that all other species are not only subservient to, but exist for the sole purpose of serving the Kobali.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
The Kobali deserve to have total war waged upon them until they halt their practice of stealing corpses completely and without exception regardless of the consequences to their species. They should stop stealing corpses even if it means they go extinct.
Self preservation is NOT, and has never been an ethical justification for violating the fundamental rights of others.
If your choices are to either violate another person's rights or die, then the only just, ethical, and moral course of action is to accept death with dignity and respect the rights of others.
A person does not have a right to violate the rights of others just to save his or her own life.
We need a new special mission set for people like you where you get dropped to lvl 0 and get to spend the rest of your STO days plugging around New Zealand doing maintenance on farming equipment sub-missions for 0 XP until you are rehabilitated.
We need a new special mission set for people like you where you get dropped to lvl 0 and get to spend the rest of your STO days plugging around New Zealand doing maintenance on farming equipment sub-missions for 0 XP until you are rehabilitated.
I don't know about you, but I consider such an act to be (1) theft, (2) a grievous violation of fundamental religious liberties, and (3) completely disrespectful of the cultures and beliefs of other peoples.
It's not a black or white situation.
They did not steal all the bodies. For example, with Lindsay, they found the body drifting in space, and thus, abandoned. No matter what, when we drop the body in space, it's not because we want to keep it close or something.
I don't see any problem in re-using a body that was abandoned by people who doesn't truly care of what happen to it. After all, they never bothered to check if the body didn't crash on an asteroid, a ship hull, a star or whatever.
Also, the previous person is slowly being changed to a new entity. In the Kobali episode, we clearly see Lindsay starting to speak and think as a Kobali, until she left Voyager because she felt she was more a Kobali than a human.
I don't see any problem about that part. Flash news, when someone die, and unless its body is preserved, everything is re-used. That's the cycle of life for you. So yes, in the end, we are all recycled people and animals. Amongst other thing.
What the Kobali should have done is some kind of marketing operation, telling the galaxy they can bring you back from the dead, and give you another life, albeit different. I'm sure a lot of people would accept the deal. Free corpse for you, hope for reincarnation for others.
The Kobali version of Second Life. For real this time. Did your life was bad ? Did you die too young ? Did you die alone ? Fear not, you'll have a second chance.
SPOILER KOBALI ADVENTURE ZONE
However, the STO Kobali are doing much more. They basically keep people of another dying race (the Vaadwaur) in stasis, so they can use their bodies when the pod ultimately stop working. They could revive them, or give them to the Vaadwaur, whatever, but no. They simply wait until the pod fail, and they use them.
And not only they do that, but they also engage in an active war, to prevent the Vaadwaur from collecting the stasis pod, and reanimate them. Leading to more deaths on both side.
Finally, they are acting against the "victims" will, since they certainly would prefer to be left to their kind, than left to die only to be reanimated as Kobali.
Now, imagine it was us instead of Vaadwaur. Your entire race have been exterminated, and only a handful are alive. You found out another race is keeping thousands if not millions of your own people, still alive in stasis pod. And they don't want to let them go, oh no, they just wait for the machine to break, so they can use the bodies. I'm no Vaadwaur, I'll ask them to give my people back first, but if they refuse, I'll certainly go to war for them.
......here's the problem with the Kobali. While you seem to be all indignant and 'that's hardly living up to Federation ideals' about the Kobali practicing a little necromancy, you seem totally OK with ignoring the myriad of cultures (including apparently the Vaadwar) for whom what the do is a gross violation of their deeply held cultural beliefs. Are those cultures' somehow less important than the Kobali? And for the record.....grave robbing goes a little beyond 'distasteful'. This arc's big problem (from an in-game PC standpoint), is that it allows no ethical decision on the part of the PC. The one point where it crops up, some random Starfleet Captain shows up to lecture you on 'Cultural Understanding'. Considering I was a Vice Admiral, I was really looking for the player option that allowed me to remind her I was a Flag Officer, and when I wanted her opinion I'd get supply to issue it to her.
Deeply held cultural beliefs?
When Gaul was revived on Voyager and discovered his wife was dead, the first big red flag we had pointing that he was a villain was that he shrugged upon seeing her corpse, dismissed her as weak, and never gave her or her body a second thought.
The Vaadwaur have no respect for the dead. The dead were weak and had it coming in their culture and their bodies are meaningless.
The only reason the Vaudwaar want those stasis tubes is for more soldiers.
The backstory for the Kobali left me disappointed entirely. They once reproduced like others but became sterile? Then developed an entire culture/religion around the process of reanimating dead tissue and overwriting it with their DNA? But somehow they need a dead body and cant grow that tissue in a lab?
I don't buy it one bit. More plausible is that they evolved from bacteria that feast on decomposing flesh, but eventually formed a symbiotic relationship with a virus. They evolved together over a long period of time. By now they reached sentience with the Kobali DNA really being that flesh-eating bacteria-virus hybrid. It explains the culture, technology, and religion in a more consistent way to me.
At least, that is my headcanon to why the Federation would be more accepting of their practices since it was all part of their natural development. And a virus/bacteria symbiotic culture would hardly view death and reproduction the same way we do.
This is exactly why this people doesn't make sense. A species that would naturally be sterile couldn't develop to the point they did. And if something happened to make them sterile we are to believe they developed means to *resurrect dead of ANY species* and "genetically/magically transform" them into sterile Kobali within a single generation. And they don't try to develop other means of procreation, because the necromancing thing works out so well... or something.
"Just lure other species in to fight for us and collect their cannon fodder. Works everytime "
they aren't "naturally" sterile. they did something to themselves in the past that caused it. With there level of genetics they most have done something like make a modified virus to combat some disease ( theoretically possible we currently are looking into modify certain viruses to combat different types of cancer) [ if you've seen "I am Legend" that's where the idea came from] From there the virus reworked their DNA so that now ovum's don't produce ova. So only the first patients have this from there it becomes air borne and infects the entire population. By the time they realize that "oh TRIBBLE we aren't making more babies" they have no more samples or there original DNA. So what's left is to use the code they have left and come up with a solution.
Since they are now viewed as little more than grave robbers they cant go around asking for DNA samles from other spieces to see they may have a similar genetic code that they could splice Kobali DNA with to allow them to reproduce.
You underlined diustasteful as thought it were critical, but ignored the "at best" part of that phrase. "At best" suggests that most people would think far worse of the situation than merely "distasteful", and that simply calling it distasteful is probably the tamest reaction one can expect.
I don't know about you, but I consider such an act to be (1) theft, (2) a grievous violation of fundamental religious liberties, and (3) completely disrespectful of the cultures and beliefs of other peoples.
But they don't consider it to be any of those things. They consider rebirth an honor, the highest respect that can be paid to another life. You're thinking from one viewpoint and reacting in a bigoted and closed-minded manner.
The only POSSIBLE way that the Kobali could justify their actions is by claiming that they are superior to all other species and that all other species are not only subservient to, but exist for the sole purpose of serving the Kobali.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
Again, you're making no effort to understand their side of it, instead defaulting to your own views like they're somehow universal. The game explains the Kobali's views on this, I've explained it in this thread twice. If you won't even try to understand them after having it repeated to you thrice, then there's just no getting through to you, I suppose.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
The Kobali deserve to have total war waged upon them until they halt their practice of stealing corpses completely and without exception regardless of the consequences to their species. They should stop stealing corpses even if it means they go extinct.
Sure, let's call jihad on them because they do things we don't like and believe things we don't believe. Truly the pinnacle of rational thought.
Self preservation is NOT, and has never been an ethical justification for violating the fundamental rights of others.
'll give you this, though. The Kobali are clearly aware that what they do isn't universally accepted, and have been shown to go to some effort to hide it. Not at all difficult to understand given their predicament. It's made worse because, through the story, we know they are aware of the fact that negotiating for the use of corpses is a viable and much more accepted method. What they did with the Vaadwaur was practical, but ultimately wrong. Thank goodness we sort that out by the end of the storyline.
If your choices are to either violate another person's rights or die, then the only just, ethical, and moral course of action is to accept death with dignity and respect the rights of others.
A person does not have a right to violate the rights of others just to save his or her own life.
But in the Kobali's case it's not just one life, it's their entire species. You'd really let a sentient species die out because of a moral hangup? Isn't condoning and entire species to death because you disagree with them unethical?
You underlined diustasteful as thought it were critical, but ignored the "at best" part of that phrase. "At best" suggests that most people would think far worse of the situation than merely "distasteful", and that simply calling it distasteful is probably the tamest reaction one can expect.
Oh there's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I noticed the "at best" quite well. However, the only adjective that you used to describe their practice of reviving corpses was, in fact, the word "distasteful". If you had bothered to include an adjective to describe the Kobali practice at its worst, then I would have treated your statement differently, since that would have established a range between best and worst. You didn't, however, so the reader of your statement is left with an incomplete range that only expresses the "at best" end of the spectrum, leaving the other end open to speculation and interpretation. You may not have intended it, but the result of the way you phrased your judgement of the Kobali's necromancy is a gross understatement of the serious gravity of the evil that the Kobali are committing upon other sentient beings.
Furthermore, I also disagree with your evaluation of the Kobali practice of reanimating the dead "at best".
In my opinion, "at best", the Kobali's method of reproducing is criminal. At worst, it is an intolerable violation of the natural rights of their victims that forfeits the Kobali's right to exist.
The word "distasteful" doesn't even begin to describe the vileness of the Kobali.
If such people were real, then I would call for their extermination.
But in the Kobali's case it's not just one life, it's their entire species. You'd really let a sentient species die out because of a moral hangup? Isn't condoning and entire species to death because you disagree with them unethical?
"The needs of the many out way the needs of the few.... or the one"
This is obviously too much fun for not joining in.
So, let me make this clear: I don't like the Kobali and what they're doing.
And I was just waiting for the first one on here to rally around the prime directive or the subsequent seventeenthousand. Sure, respect for other cultures is yay and judging the Kobali is boo. :eek:
But I don't quite get why they revive their own zombie army with anal probes. And now don't tell me that's not how they're doing it. We never actually saw how it's being done. Why those kinda probes? Because all that have been brought back seem a tad bit "anal" to me. "Hi, I'm General Purplehead, my son who looks way older than me, yeah you can meet him to carry out pointless tasks since the Vaadwaur have an endless respawning army." Get it? Respawning? *poke* :cool:
It's pretty obvious where the FED's tradition of "space burials" come from. They should invent some decomposing bio-polymer casket torpedo or whatever. So no one can use the fed deads as reanimated corpse, museum piece, gene pool or dry-space-aged teriyaki beef jerky. Having spent so many hours on Bajor, I somehow developed a deep sympathy for the Cardassians. I mean, Bajorans are as ungrateful as it gets.
Now I don't have much sympathy for the Vaudies, but their aim is just as good as the Kobali's. Well... Maybe that's the German in me speaking. :rolleyes: I can understand why the Vaadwaur waged war (within this canon) and I don't really pity the Kobali. If they wanna have a zombie army like in D
But they don't consider it to be any of those things. They consider rebirth an honor, the highest respect that can be paid to another life. You're thinking from one viewpoint and reacting in a bigoted and closed-minded manner.
One does not try to understand evil. One does not negotiate with evil. One does not compromise with evil. The only thing that one does with evil is annihilate it.
Again, you're making no effort to understand their side of it, instead defaulting to your own views like they're somehow universal. The game explains the Kobali's views on this, I've explained it in this thread twice. If you won't even try to understand them after having it repeated to you thrice, then there's just no getting through to you, I suppose.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
I would make no more effort to understand "their side of it" than I would to understand a serial killer's side of the story. They have no side. They have no justification.
Sure, let's call jihad on them because they do things we don't like and believe things we don't believe. Truly the pinnacle of rational thought.
Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy also did things "we don't like" and believed things "we don't believe".
Again, you are understating the gravity of the heinous practices of the Kobali. What the Kobali do is far more than just something "we don't like". What the Kobali do is an insult to everything that is righteous and honorable in the universe.
As for their beliefs, they are irrelevant. One does not condemn a criminal for his beliefs, one condemns a criminal for his actions.
'll give you this, though. The Kobali are clearly aware that what they do isn't universally accepted, and have been shown to go to some effort to hide it. Not at all difficult to understand given their predicament. It's made worse because, through the story, we know they are aware of the fact that negotiating for the use of corpses is a viable and much more accepted method. What they did with the Vaadwaur was practical, but ultimately wrong. Thank goodness we sort that out by the end of the storyline.
The fact that the Kobali go to great lengths to hide their vile practices only condemns the Kobali even more. There are only two possible interpretations of their need to hide their necromantic practices: (1) they know that what they are doing is evil and thus hide their actions in order to gain an advantage in perpetuating their crimes, or (2) they know that other species would not approve of such practices and feel the need to hide what they do from sheer cowardice and an unwillingness to face the consequences of their actions.
The fact that they hide their practices means that the Kobali are willful and remorseless in carrying out their premeditated crimes. In a real-world criminal justice system, these are factors that would raise the seriousness of a perpetrator's crimes.
But in the Kobali's case it's not just one life, it's their entire species. You'd really let a sentient species die out because of a moral hangup? Isn't condoning and entire species to death because you disagree with them unethical?
I'll answer your questions in order.
Yes.
No.
Self defense against perpetrators like the Kobali is most certainly ethical.
I'm still playing through the arc, but I am enjoying it so far. It makes a nice change to have a story that isn't just black and white.
Different cultures have different attitudes toward their dead, and though my KDF character may think otherwise I can appreciate points of view I do not agree with. From a purely logical/efficient standpoint what they do makes sense. The body is not wasted and I can see the opinion that recycling it is a better method of honouring the dead that just putting it to waste. Not unlike donating our bodies to medical science. I could guess that the Kobali do not suffer from terminal illnesses or any other potential disabilities stemming from being stuck with the bodies we were born with.
Plenty of advantages, there is a 'but' of course.
The Vaadwaur did not give permission. And even though they are the enemy and I don't have a clue what their culture's attitude toward the dead is it should be them that decide the fate of their fallen.
Another thing to consider is that old can of worms, the 'Prime Directive' - this could well be a thread on it's own but I would question the alliance, or at least the Federation, staying involved once it becomes clear that it is an 'internal issue'.
Again, another grey area.
All in all I'm loving the story arc, and I hope to see more grey area stories in the future. This type of discussion is what Trek should be about.
they aren't "naturally" sterile. they did something to themselves in the past that caused it. With there level of genetics they most have done something like make a modified virus to combat some disease ( theoretically possible we currently are looking into modify certain viruses to combat different types of cancer) [ if you've seen "I am Legend" that's where the idea came from] From there the virus reworked their DNA so that now ovum's don't produce ova. So only the first patients have this from there it becomes air borne and infects the entire population. By the time they realize that "oh TRIBBLE we aren't making more babies" they have no more samples or there original DNA. So what's left is to use the code they have left and come up with a solution.
Since they are now viewed as little more than grave robbers they cant go around asking for DNA samles from other spieces to see they may have a similar genetic code that they could splice Kobali DNA with to allow them to reproduce.
That doesn't make sense. They can completely rewrite any random species genome to Kobali, including physical transformation, but they can't figure out what made them sterile and they did not keep genetic specimen with their advanced tech?
The Kobali race trait does not make sense. And that is why it's hard to sympathize with them.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I don't think KDF characters should really see any issue with what the Kobali do, given what we know of Klingon's views regarding death... as they view the corpse as an empty vessel to be disposed of. So I'd think if someone is playing from an in-character perspective as a Klingon they would have no qualms with Kobali practice.
1. They lied, withholding information which presents issues with how much can we trust them.
2. As someone before stated, the lack of legalites with regards to how they use corpses. Fix this so that they can get people to donate their bodies, and it be fine. Just like how one can donate their body for science.
3. They make no sense. You have the tech to raise the dead... but you can't fix sterility? Yeah, once again Star Trek: Voyager goes full idiot regarding genetics (Remember "Threshold"?).
As for Kobali Prime, that is a moral grey area.
Yeah, The Kobali taking a Vaadwaur facility and just waiting for pods to fail so they can reproduce is morally repugnant. However, the Vaadwaur is currently waging a war with all of the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant powers. Those Vaadwaur in pods are potential soilders, scientists, engineers and laborers that can help the Vaadwaur war effort. As such, they are assets to the enemy, and if allowed to be brought back, they would only fight.
They make no sense. You have the tech to raise the dead... but you can't fix sterility? Yeah, once again Star Trek: Voyager goes full idiot regarding genetics (Remember "Threshold"?).
It could simply be the path of least resistance.
They like to stress that they were desperate and facing extinction, and in those circumstances you do what it takes to survive. We are also assuming here that fixing this sterility problem is straightforward.
As it stands, I think it's too far gone now. Their biology would have changed dramatically through generations of this practice. Evolution alone may have completely removed their sexual organs or abilities to procreate traditionally. I mean why keep them if you don't use them?
1. They lied, withholding information which presents issues with how much can we trust them.
2. As someone before stated, the lack of legalites with regards to how they use corpses. Fix this so that they can get people to donate their bodies, and it be fine. Just like how one can donate their body for science.
3. They make no sense. You have the tech to raise the dead... but you can't fix sterility? Yeah, once again Star Trek: Voyager goes full idiot regarding genetics (Remember "Threshold"?).
As for Kobali Prime, that is a moral grey area.
Yeah, The Kobali taking a Vaadwaur facility and just waiting for pods to fail so they can reproduce is morally repugnant. However, the Vaadwaur is currently waging a war with all of the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant powers. Those Vaadwaur in pods are potential soilders, scientists, engineers and laborers that can help the Vaadwaur war effort. As such, they are assets to the enemy, and if allowed to be brought back, they would only fight.
What do you do then?
you complete the Kobali Prime missions? a few of you pts are resolved in the last mission
Comments
Of course, if one can afford to pay for the real white-glove treatment from the Kobali to ensure there is no residual memory and the soul is cleanly dispatched to the hereafter, I think the Blessed Exchequer would appreciate the lobes behind that successful gamble.
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I do have to agree that I did find it troublesome and amusing when having them be in charge of medical and the fact that their pop window come up multiple times. As others have stated, you don't let someone who wants dead people access to the "dying". Nonetheless, the Federation does believe in giving the benefit of the doubt to all species.
I do wish there was more information on the history and culture of the Kobali. Regardless of their ghoulish procreative works, there might be an even fascinating story. I do wonder if the Borg ever assimilated the Kobali.
With regards to Harry Kim, it looks like his girlfriend did find him floating in space after all. I would like to see Harry Kim #1 become Kobali, if for no other reason, to be united with the love of earlier life. Even better, would be to have Captain Harry Kim meet up with Kobali Harry Kim. Just something to think about.
I will surely not be ashamed because I criticize a concept for a fictional race that does not make sense. I never touched any of their morals, I don't even get there because I immedeatly abandoned their species design as nonsensical. But if I were to "judge" morals, the VOY episode in question is pretty clear about the fact that they would kill hundreds of people before they let someone who regained their original memories "escape", so there is also that
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You should be ashamed of yourself, you assume that everyone here is a Federation player?
But seriously its not the same thing, for one the Kobali are not real and even if they were first contact (or second in this case) are a uneasy thing, sometimes it takes a while to get past those boundaries.
i think a little quest looking into them would have been nice for the delta rep, like the rommie and dyson one.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
But otherwise, I'm okey with space necromancers, who got wookie bowcasters.
......here's the problem with the Kobali. While you seem to be all indignant and 'that's hardly living up to Federation ideals' about the Kobali practicing a little necromancy, you seem totally OK with ignoring the myriad of cultures (including apparently the Vaadwar) for whom what the do is a gross violation of their deeply held cultural beliefs. Are those cultures' somehow less important than the Kobali? And for the record.....grave robbing goes a little beyond 'distasteful'. This arc's big problem (from an in-game PC standpoint), is that it allows no ethical decision on the part of the PC. The one point where it crops up, some random Starfleet Captain shows up to lecture you on 'Cultural Understanding'. Considering I was a Vice Admiral, I was really looking for the player option that allowed me to remind her I was a Flag Officer, and when I wanted her opinion I'd get supply to issue it to her.
yeah, I can see the Kobali going:
"Gee, sorry we couldn't save anyone how was wounded and return them to their original planets/homes/families; but hey at least they'll have a new and fulfilling life with us, right?":eek::D;)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Nothing would point to them being likely to do that. Very out of character for that to happen from anything presenting on screen or in game.
I wonder if Starfleet is going to have donor card that will donate their bodies to the Kobali.
Underlining added by me for emphasis.
Distasteful?
Stealing corpses is merely distasteful to you?
I don't know about you, but I consider such an act to be (1) theft, (2) a grievous violation of fundamental religious liberties, and (3) completely disrespectful of the cultures and beliefs of other peoples.
The only POSSIBLE way that the Kobali could justify their actions is by claiming that they are superior to all other species and that all other species are not only subservient to, but exist for the sole purpose of serving the Kobali.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
The Kobali deserve to have total war waged upon them until they halt their practice of stealing corpses completely and without exception regardless of the consequences to their species. They should stop stealing corpses even if it means they go extinct.
Self preservation is NOT, and has never been an ethical justification for violating the fundamental rights of others.
If your choices are to either violate another person's rights or die, then the only just, ethical, and moral course of action is to accept death with dignity and respect the rights of others.
A person does not have a right to violate the rights of others just to save his or her own life.
We need a new special mission set for people like you where you get dropped to lvl 0 and get to spend the rest of your STO days plugging around New Zealand doing maintenance on farming equipment sub-missions for 0 XP until you are rehabilitated.
Why?
Care to elaborate?
:eek:
Eewww!! and LOL!!
They did not steal all the bodies. For example, with Lindsay, they found the body drifting in space, and thus, abandoned. No matter what, when we drop the body in space, it's not because we want to keep it close or something.
I don't see any problem in re-using a body that was abandoned by people who doesn't truly care of what happen to it. After all, they never bothered to check if the body didn't crash on an asteroid, a ship hull, a star or whatever.
Also, the previous person is slowly being changed to a new entity. In the Kobali episode, we clearly see Lindsay starting to speak and think as a Kobali, until she left Voyager because she felt she was more a Kobali than a human.
I don't see any problem about that part. Flash news, when someone die, and unless its body is preserved, everything is re-used. That's the cycle of life for you. So yes, in the end, we are all recycled people and animals. Amongst other thing.
What the Kobali should have done is some kind of marketing operation, telling the galaxy they can bring you back from the dead, and give you another life, albeit different. I'm sure a lot of people would accept the deal. Free corpse for you, hope for reincarnation for others.
The Kobali version of Second Life. For real this time. Did your life was bad ? Did you die too young ? Did you die alone ? Fear not, you'll have a second chance.
SPOILER KOBALI ADVENTURE ZONE
However, the STO Kobali are doing much more. They basically keep people of another dying race (the Vaadwaur) in stasis, so they can use their bodies when the pod ultimately stop working. They could revive them, or give them to the Vaadwaur, whatever, but no. They simply wait until the pod fail, and they use them.
And not only they do that, but they also engage in an active war, to prevent the Vaadwaur from collecting the stasis pod, and reanimate them. Leading to more deaths on both side.
Finally, they are acting against the "victims" will, since they certainly would prefer to be left to their kind, than left to die only to be reanimated as Kobali.
Now, imagine it was us instead of Vaadwaur. Your entire race have been exterminated, and only a handful are alive. You found out another race is keeping thousands if not millions of your own people, still alive in stasis pod. And they don't want to let them go, oh no, they just wait for the machine to break, so they can use the bodies. I'm no Vaadwaur, I'll ask them to give my people back first, but if they refuse, I'll certainly go to war for them.
Deeply held cultural beliefs?
When Gaul was revived on Voyager and discovered his wife was dead, the first big red flag we had pointing that he was a villain was that he shrugged upon seeing her corpse, dismissed her as weak, and never gave her or her body a second thought.
The Vaadwaur have no respect for the dead. The dead were weak and had it coming in their culture and their bodies are meaningless.
The only reason the Vaudwaar want those stasis tubes is for more soldiers.
I don't buy it one bit. More plausible is that they evolved from bacteria that feast on decomposing flesh, but eventually formed a symbiotic relationship with a virus. They evolved together over a long period of time. By now they reached sentience with the Kobali DNA really being that flesh-eating bacteria-virus hybrid. It explains the culture, technology, and religion in a more consistent way to me.
At least, that is my headcanon to why the Federation would be more accepting of their practices since it was all part of their natural development. And a virus/bacteria symbiotic culture would hardly view death and reproduction the same way we do.
For your courts-martial.
they aren't "naturally" sterile. they did something to themselves in the past that caused it. With there level of genetics they most have done something like make a modified virus to combat some disease ( theoretically possible we currently are looking into modify certain viruses to combat different types of cancer) [ if you've seen "I am Legend" that's where the idea came from] From there the virus reworked their DNA so that now ovum's don't produce ova. So only the first patients have this from there it becomes air borne and infects the entire population. By the time they realize that "oh TRIBBLE we aren't making more babies" they have no more samples or there original DNA. So what's left is to use the code they have left and come up with a solution.
Since they are now viewed as little more than grave robbers they cant go around asking for DNA samles from other spieces to see they may have a similar genetic code that they could splice Kobali DNA with to allow them to reproduce.
Reading comprehension is key.
You underlined diustasteful as thought it were critical, but ignored the "at best" part of that phrase. "At best" suggests that most people would think far worse of the situation than merely "distasteful", and that simply calling it distasteful is probably the tamest reaction one can expect.
But they don't consider it to be any of those things. They consider rebirth an honor, the highest respect that can be paid to another life. You're thinking from one viewpoint and reacting in a bigoted and closed-minded manner.
Again, you're making no effort to understand their side of it, instead defaulting to your own views like they're somehow universal. The game explains the Kobali's views on this, I've explained it in this thread twice. If you won't even try to understand them after having it repeated to you thrice, then there's just no getting through to you, I suppose.
That sort of perceived superiority and total disregard of other cultures should be unacceptable to any critically thinking sentient being.
Sure, let's call jihad on them because they do things we don't like and believe things we don't believe. Truly the pinnacle of rational thought.
'll give you this, though. The Kobali are clearly aware that what they do isn't universally accepted, and have been shown to go to some effort to hide it. Not at all difficult to understand given their predicament. It's made worse because, through the story, we know they are aware of the fact that negotiating for the use of corpses is a viable and much more accepted method. What they did with the Vaadwaur was practical, but ultimately wrong. Thank goodness we sort that out by the end of the storyline.
But in the Kobali's case it's not just one life, it's their entire species. You'd really let a sentient species die out because of a moral hangup? Isn't condoning and entire species to death because you disagree with them unethical?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Oh there's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I noticed the "at best" quite well. However, the only adjective that you used to describe their practice of reviving corpses was, in fact, the word "distasteful". If you had bothered to include an adjective to describe the Kobali practice at its worst, then I would have treated your statement differently, since that would have established a range between best and worst. You didn't, however, so the reader of your statement is left with an incomplete range that only expresses the "at best" end of the spectrum, leaving the other end open to speculation and interpretation. You may not have intended it, but the result of the way you phrased your judgement of the Kobali's necromancy is a gross understatement of the serious gravity of the evil that the Kobali are committing upon other sentient beings.
Furthermore, I also disagree with your evaluation of the Kobali practice of reanimating the dead "at best".
In my opinion, "at best", the Kobali's method of reproducing is criminal. At worst, it is an intolerable violation of the natural rights of their victims that forfeits the Kobali's right to exist.
The word "distasteful" doesn't even begin to describe the vileness of the Kobali.
If such people were real, then I would call for their extermination.
"The needs of the many out way the needs of the few.... or the one"
So, let me make this clear: I don't like the Kobali and what they're doing.
And I was just waiting for the first one on here to rally around the prime directive or the subsequent seventeenthousand. Sure, respect for other cultures is yay and judging the Kobali is boo. :eek:
But I don't quite get why they revive their own zombie army with anal probes. And now don't tell me that's not how they're doing it. We never actually saw how it's being done. Why those kinda probes? Because all that have been brought back seem a tad bit "anal" to me. "Hi, I'm General Purplehead, my son who looks way older than me, yeah you can meet him to carry out pointless tasks since the Vaadwaur have an endless respawning army." Get it? Respawning? *poke* :cool:
It's pretty obvious where the FED's tradition of "space burials" come from. They should invent some decomposing bio-polymer casket torpedo or whatever. So no one can use the fed deads as reanimated corpse, museum piece, gene pool or dry-space-aged teriyaki beef jerky. Having spent so many hours on Bajor, I somehow developed a deep sympathy for the Cardassians. I mean, Bajorans are as ungrateful as it gets.
Now I don't have much sympathy for the Vaudies, but their aim is just as good as the Kobali's. Well... Maybe that's the German in me speaking. :rolleyes: I can understand why the Vaadwaur waged war (within this canon) and I don't really pity the Kobali. If they wanna have a zombie army like in D
I agree.
One does not try to understand evil. One does not negotiate with evil. One does not compromise with evil. The only thing that one does with evil is annihilate it.
I would make no more effort to understand "their side of it" than I would to understand a serial killer's side of the story. They have no side. They have no justification.
Oh, and good is universal.
Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy also did things "we don't like" and believed things "we don't believe".
Again, you are understating the gravity of the heinous practices of the Kobali. What the Kobali do is far more than just something "we don't like". What the Kobali do is an insult to everything that is righteous and honorable in the universe.
As for their beliefs, they are irrelevant. One does not condemn a criminal for his beliefs, one condemns a criminal for his actions.
The fact that the Kobali go to great lengths to hide their vile practices only condemns the Kobali even more. There are only two possible interpretations of their need to hide their necromantic practices: (1) they know that what they are doing is evil and thus hide their actions in order to gain an advantage in perpetuating their crimes, or (2) they know that other species would not approve of such practices and feel the need to hide what they do from sheer cowardice and an unwillingness to face the consequences of their actions.
The fact that they hide their practices means that the Kobali are willful and remorseless in carrying out their premeditated crimes. In a real-world criminal justice system, these are factors that would raise the seriousness of a perpetrator's crimes.
I'll answer your questions in order.
Yes.
No.
Self defense against perpetrators like the Kobali is most certainly ethical.
Different cultures have different attitudes toward their dead, and though my KDF character may think otherwise I can appreciate points of view I do not agree with. From a purely logical/efficient standpoint what they do makes sense. The body is not wasted and I can see the opinion that recycling it is a better method of honouring the dead that just putting it to waste. Not unlike donating our bodies to medical science. I could guess that the Kobali do not suffer from terminal illnesses or any other potential disabilities stemming from being stuck with the bodies we were born with.
Plenty of advantages, there is a 'but' of course.
The Vaadwaur did not give permission. And even though they are the enemy and I don't have a clue what their culture's attitude toward the dead is it should be them that decide the fate of their fallen.
Another thing to consider is that old can of worms, the 'Prime Directive' - this could well be a thread on it's own but I would question the alliance, or at least the Federation, staying involved once it becomes clear that it is an 'internal issue'.
Again, another grey area.
All in all I'm loving the story arc, and I hope to see more grey area stories in the future. This type of discussion is what Trek should be about.
That doesn't make sense. They can completely rewrite any random species genome to Kobali, including physical transformation, but they can't figure out what made them sterile and they did not keep genetic specimen with their advanced tech?
The Kobali race trait does not make sense. And that is why it's hard to sympathize with them.
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My problems with the Kobali are as follows:
1. They lied, withholding information which presents issues with how much can we trust them.
2. As someone before stated, the lack of legalites with regards to how they use corpses. Fix this so that they can get people to donate their bodies, and it be fine. Just like how one can donate their body for science.
3. They make no sense. You have the tech to raise the dead... but you can't fix sterility? Yeah, once again Star Trek: Voyager goes full idiot regarding genetics (Remember "Threshold"?).
As for Kobali Prime, that is a moral grey area.
Yeah, The Kobali taking a Vaadwaur facility and just waiting for pods to fail so they can reproduce is morally repugnant. However, the Vaadwaur is currently waging a war with all of the Delta Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant powers. Those Vaadwaur in pods are potential soilders, scientists, engineers and laborers that can help the Vaadwaur war effort. As such, they are assets to the enemy, and if allowed to be brought back, they would only fight.
What do you do then?
It could simply be the path of least resistance.
They like to stress that they were desperate and facing extinction, and in those circumstances you do what it takes to survive. We are also assuming here that fixing this sterility problem is straightforward.
As it stands, I think it's too far gone now. Their biology would have changed dramatically through generations of this practice. Evolution alone may have completely removed their sexual organs or abilities to procreate traditionally. I mean why keep them if you don't use them?
you complete the Kobali Prime missions? a few of you pts are resolved in the last mission
I have not, and what you are getting is what I understand as of now.
But this is my opoinion as it stands at the moment, subjet to change, terms and conditions may apply.