there is a simple principle applied in almost all countries on this planet
-> not guilty until the guilt is proven
aswell as there is the principle of cause any reaction
cause was the incompetence of the developers to fix this reported problem prior releasing the season and cause also was the great imbalance since the delta rising release
fact is the developers can decide to ignore us and blame us for their own mistakes
but we as players can also play this dirty game and simply stop to buy anything from c-store... we can cancel our subscriptions
we can learn from this incident and stop supporting the developers
nobody of us needs to test on tribble in future given the fact that our reports are ignored anyways
the developers say that we should have known this had been an exploit?
how?
It was a reported problem on tribble and since it was not fixed it is just logical to assume that the developer didnt see any problems with it... therefore it was no exploit... it was legit gameplay
I keep saying it. It was the lack of interest in DR that drove the Devs to react this way. Nothing in particular that was being done in Tau Dewa/Japori other then being there in mass rather then in DQ.
Every Dev that has commented on this subject has given us all different stories as to what was actually being done that was an 'exploit'. And Im sure they will claim they didnt have all the facts....And that just begs the question. Why were you commenting on something you had no business commenting on?
If you notice. There hasnt been any new reactions from the Devs and thats because a lot of people got the message loud and clear and went back to DR. Enough to satisfy their need to show off their new shiny expansion and claim its 'such' a success.
This is why we cant trust these Devs anymore. They have no integrity, and this reaction is to Tau Dewa is a clear as day sign. Just as much as their reaction to Tribble Reports. Its no longer about giving the player what they want. Its about creating a system that gets under the skin of a player, a player that seeks to complete objectives and optionals, by denying them the opportunity to complete something without weeks or months of grinding or opening their wallet. They know psychologically that many players are driven to complete things. And if they hold it just out of reach long enough theres a very high chance we'll give in and pay to have it.
And that is what DR is all about. Holding things just out of reach. It wasnt enough that they make a killing off of CStore Ships, it wasnt enough that theyre racking in millions off of a gambling mechanic in the Lockboxes they have. No they need to make MOAR. They dont see us as a playerbase anymore. They see us as Groves of MoneyBag Trees ripe and ready to be picked.
Yeah the let's-delete-exploration-so-they-play-queues-like-we-want-them-to concept has the opposite effect on me.
I have zero problems never playing a dil-nerfed-queue ever again, live and let die I guess
I'm not doing stf's either anymore, not even battlezones since they're stuck at lvl 50 (lol)..
I just log in to do doffs and chat with the occasional r&d for mk 2 critDx3 beams
Yeah the let's-delete-exploration-so-they-play-queues-like-we-want-them-to concept has the opposite effect on me.
I used to miss exploration. Now I miss them twice as much. At least they would've been a lot more varied than running the same patrols over and over again.
Gonna own up to it Stephen? Or just ignore and watch your game crash and burn?
They're going to ignore it. No real choice. If D'Angelo were to admit he wronged ppl, he'd lose face. And if the Devs admitted to such, they'd have to get rid of their leader. Neither of the two is going to happen, of course.
Nevertheless, D'Angelo did plenty damage, that no form of inaction on their end can hope to undo.
Not gonna happen. Why? who would enforce it? Actual governments don't care about your digital stuff.
Maybe in the US in many places but it will eventually happen as more and more services are becoming digital as well as products being offered. It is just that it takes the courts a long time to catch up with tech and commerce.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
They're going to ignore it. No real choice. If D'Angelo were to admit he wronged ppl, he'd lose face. And if the Devs admitted to such, they'd have to get rid of their leader. Neither of the two is going to happen, of course.
Nevertheless, D'Angelo did plenty damage, that no form of inaction on their end can hope to undo.
It's better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it to everyone.
Seventeen times faster than.... than what? Faster than the average solo 5k dps player who takes coffee breaks between runs? Faster than your spreadsheet optimizing whale milking predicted?
Rather than putting water on the fire, your gasoline now has the forums burning seventeen times hotter.
You have been punishing loyal and paying players for mistakes that YOU have done. You have punished players randomly even if they never used the exploit and you have broken the trust with the players.
This is rich.
Okay, so it seems you are accusing D'Angelo of being either:
A) Maniacally Evil and/or Completely Insane
He seems to me to be able to hold down a job and otherwise function normally in society, so I don't know what evidence you have of this. But the behavior of which you're accusing he and the other devs is completely irrational.
Why on earth would anyone in any business punish loyal paying customers? Why on earth would anyone punish customers randomly and for no reason?
There is no reason. And since D'Angelo is not a raving, drooling maniac, the only possible answer to this is that you are completely and utterly wrong.
For your side to be right, all involved Cryptic and PWE executives have to be insane. For the other side to be right...you and some other folks took advantage of (i.e. exploited...look up the definition of the word) a bug, got caught doing, and lost what you gained by it.
Simple logic, Occam's Razor, says that the devs are right on this one.
Okay, so it seems you are accusing D'Angelo of being either:
A) Maniacally Evil and/or Completely Insane
He seems to me to be able to hold down a job and otherwise function normally in society, so I don't know what evidence you have of this. But the behavior of which you're accusing he and the other devs is completely irrational.
Why on earth would anyone in any business punish loyal paying customers? Why on earth would anyone punish customers randomly and for no reason?
There is no reason. And since D'Angelo is not a raving, drooling maniac, the only possible answer to this is that you are completely and utterly wrong.
For your side to be right, all involved Cryptic and PWE executives have to be insane. For the other side to be right...you and some other folks took advantage of (i.e. exploited...look up the definition of the word) a bug, got caught doing, and lost what you gained by it.
Simple logic, Occam's Razor, says that the devs are right on this one.
Bogus reductio ad absurdum. In the real world, companies have *every* reason to cover up their mistakes. Produce a car that has a number of gas tanks that explode spontaneously?! Cover it up! Produce iPhones that have a metal rim that can short-cut? Deny! Have an EP that made a severe judgement in error?! Well, you figure this one out on your own.
Have an EP that made a severe judgement in error?! Well, you figure this one out on your own.
So, your response to, "D'Angelo would have to be maniacally evil and/or insane to do that of which you are accusing him" is essentially, "Yes, he's an evil maniac and the rest of the company are all covering for him"?
Okay, so it seems you are accusing D'Angelo of being either:
A) Maniacally Evil and/or Completely Insane
He seems to me to be able to hold down a job and otherwise function normally in society, so I don't know what evidence you have of this. But the behavior of which you're accusing he and the other devs is completely irrational.
Why on earth would anyone in any business punish loyal paying customers? Why on earth would anyone punish customers randomly and for no reason?
There is no reason. And since D'Angelo is not a raving, drooling maniac, the only possible answer to this is that you are completely and utterly wrong.
For your side to be right, all involved Cryptic and PWE executives have to be insane. For the other side to be right...you and some other folks took advantage of (i.e. exploited...look up the definition of the word) a bug, got caught doing, and lost what you gained by it.
Simple logic, Occam's Razor, says that the devs are right on this one.
Wait a second, you beleive that:
A) Cryptic were made aware of a bug in tribble and chose not to fix it they then hot patched the bug and used a blanket spec point drain algorithm without properly evaluating it's consequences, and
C) Called the whole playerbase cheaters, then came back with a really weak, vague and self-serving apology in an attempt to save face
Requires fewer assumptions than:
A) the majority of players weren't aware that 5X stronger enemies were not supposed to give 5X more EXP?
...i think you need to re-evaluate the principle of Occam's Razor.
Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
So, your response to, "D'Angelo would have to be maniacally evil and/or insane to do that of which you are accusing him" is essentially, "Yes, he's an evil maniac and the rest of the company are all covering for him"?
And another apologist has entered the arena. How long before realizes his failure in logic wont work here?
And your response is "I trust him, why would he ever do anything wrong?"
Never said that. If he was being accused of, for example, making leveling a lot slower in this expansion to sell more XP Boosts for $10 a pop on the Zen Store, I'd say, "Well, yeah, that's probably part of it. They're in business to make money."
If people were here asserting that the numbers he pulled from the servers were in error somehow, or the means used to identify the users of the exploit were untrustworthy and needed to be re-examined, I would understand that and I'd hope that everything was double-checked to ensure accuracy.
If people here start accusing him of being the Boston Strangler, based on nothing, then yeah, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
People on these boards are asserting that a certain narrative is true. That narrative is preposterous.
So, your response to, "D'Angelo would have to be maniacally evil and/or insane to do that of which you are accusing him" is essentially, "Yes, he's an evil maniac and the rest of the company are all covering for him"?
No, my response to that was that you engage in totally bogus reductio ad absurdum, painting a laughable hyperbole that divides the world in people who either tell the truth, or are "maniacally evil and/or insane."
they then hot patched the bug and used a blanket spec point drain algorithm without properly evaluating it's consequences,
- maybe or maybe not because like with cryptic we just have the word of the players and lets face it players have nothing to loose from doing this or saying this other then their own credibility if they are wrong which I guess they aren't too worried about in the long run so really they can make up anything they want
A) the majority of players weren't aware that 5X stronger enemies were not supposed to give 5X more EXP?
- never heard this one before someone made this up along the line some players I guess...
When in the history of online gaming has a company actually gone into detail about the exploit or even verbalized its presence - this is pretty common and in terms of their actions they have made a decision and are not about to back peddle on it ever. Players have a choice wait for support to work which probably will take a couple weeks or just ignore it and move on. All the sabre rattling in the world will not change what has happened.
It probably over time will cause more harm then good because its over with and in the scheme of life the universe and everything is actually pretty minor considering and really there is a point at which any normal person would let go.. its just a game .. pixels that one day will be deleted because in the end of it all we are just renting them for as long as they decide to let us rent them for and nothing more.
A) the majority of players weren't aware that 5X stronger enemies were not supposed to give 5X more EXP?
Really?
The majority of players honestly thought that when Cryptic released a new expansion with 10 new levels and a bunch of new content that what they intended was for people to power level through all 10 plus 50 skill points in a matter of hours by running one piece of old, pre-expansion content over and over again?
Really?
Don't be precious. A minority of players discovered an 'unintended feature' (read: bug) that allowed them to render the intended challenge of all that leveling trivial and a minority of those players chose to take advantage (i.e. exploit) it. A minority of those got caught and had what they gained by it taken away.
That's very easy to believe. It happens in games all the time.
The majority of players honestly thought that when Cryptic released a new expansion with 10 new levels and a bunch of new content that what they intended was for people to power level through all 10 plus 50 skill points in a matter of hours by running one piece of old, pre-expansion content over and over again?
Really?
Don't be precious. A minority of players discovered an 'unintended feature' (read: bug) that allowed them to render the intended challenge of all that leveling trivial and a minority of those players chose to take advantage (i.e. exploit) it. A minority of those got caught and had what they gained by it taken away.
That's very easy to believe. It happens in games all the time.
You should really stop speaking for others, you clearly don't know, or have dealt with in person. But that in part, is what the OP did as well. So there is always that. Same perspective, or lack thereof.
Personally I soloed all the content, and ran out of it in a matter of day(s) before starting to join teams. If there had been some meat to this so-called expansion, this could at least in part have been avoided. It was however released in such an anorectic state, there was nothing left to do, even when taking your time and listening to everything Neelix had to say.
So between replaying Neelix, do the nerfed PvE queues, or do the patrols, the patrols seemed the least of the available evils. The keyword here being AVAILABLE. I would have done the patrols again in the same situation, ad infinitum, with every knowledge of all of this, for without a choice, you take the road before you. This "addition" is as narrow a road you can get, and still pretend it is somehow passsable.
The majority of players honestly thought that when Cryptic released a new expansion with 10 new levels and a bunch of new content that what they intended was for people to power level through all 10 plus 50 skill points in a matter of hours by running one piece of old, pre-expansion content over and over again?
Really?
No, i expected that when the new content went live with 10 new levels, that i would be able to progress through those missions exactly as i did with all the previous story missions. i.e. WITHOUT having to stop between each and every one and grind the same patrols over and over again for 1-2 hours.
At the very least, the average player probably expected to gain those new 10 levels exactly as fast as they had gained the last 10.
Remember when you always used to see 100+ playing Conduit Elite or Crystalline Catastrophe Elite pre-DR? were we all supposed to assume that it must have been broken, otherwise why would there be so many people there? Of course not, it was simply the Dominant Strategy. So why, on this of all occasions, where the playeres supposed to magically 'know' that THIS was wrong, and not just a shift in said strategy to account for the near empty Queues?
Real Temporal Operative: Purchased the Special Temporal Agent pack before it was even officially announced!
The majority of players honestly thought that when Cryptic released a new expansion with 10 new levels and a bunch of new content that what they intended was for people to power level through all 10 plus 50 skill points in a matter of hours by running one piece of old, pre-expansion content over and over again?
Really?
Don't be precious. A minority of players discovered an 'unintended feature' (read: bug) that allowed them to render the intended challenge of all that leveling trivial and a minority of those players chose to take advantage (i.e. exploit) it. A minority of those got caught and had what they gained by it taken away.
That's very easy to believe. It happens in games all the time.
Those weren't the only players who got reverted. People who never set foot in Tau Dewa got reverted.
Apparently playing on Elite and doing too much DPS was grounds for reversion because it would appear that they defined exploiting simply as SP received per hour, not taking into account that some players do enough DPS even in new content to advance at a faster rate... and, for that matter, that Cryptic sells progress in the form of SP boosters.
Meaning that if you were performing at the upper end of what they considered the "right" leveling speed and used SP boosters that pushed you over, they took back the SP that you paid real money for.
So, your response to, "D'Angelo would have to be maniacally evil and/or insane to do that of which you are accusing him" is essentially, "Yes, he's an evil maniac and the rest of the company are all covering for him"?
What you define as "evil maniac", apparently, I define as "not particularly evil but disappointingly typical."
Those weren't the only players who got reverted. People who never set foot in Tau Dewa got reverted.
Apparently playing on Elite and doing too much DPS was grounds for reversion because it would appear that they defined exploiting simply as SP received per hour, not taking into account that some players do enough DPS even in new content to advance at a faster rate... and, for that matter, that Cryptic sells progress in the form of SP boosters.
Meaning that if you were performing at the upper end of what they considered the "right" leveling speed and used SP boosters that pushed you over, they took back the SP that you paid real money for.
^^ Well said!
I do only ~22k. That is probably still considerably more than the average casual player. And I was grinding the TRIBBLE out the 'Shutdown' mission (old Cardasssian storyline mission at DS9). And I hardly took a break (in hindsight, seems I should have idled more).
Comments
-> not guilty until the guilt is proven
aswell as there is the principle of cause any reaction
cause was the incompetence of the developers to fix this reported problem prior releasing the season and cause also was the great imbalance since the delta rising release
fact is the developers can decide to ignore us and blame us for their own mistakes
but we as players can also play this dirty game and simply stop to buy anything from c-store... we can cancel our subscriptions
we can learn from this incident and stop supporting the developers
nobody of us needs to test on tribble in future given the fact that our reports are ignored anyways
the developers say that we should have known this had been an exploit?
how?
It was a reported problem on tribble and since it was not fixed it is just logical to assume that the developer didnt see any problems with it... therefore it was no exploit... it was legit gameplay
My character Tsin'xing
Every Dev that has commented on this subject has given us all different stories as to what was actually being done that was an 'exploit'. And Im sure they will claim they didnt have all the facts....And that just begs the question. Why were you commenting on something you had no business commenting on?
If you notice. There hasnt been any new reactions from the Devs and thats because a lot of people got the message loud and clear and went back to DR. Enough to satisfy their need to show off their new shiny expansion and claim its 'such' a success.
This is why we cant trust these Devs anymore. They have no integrity, and this reaction is to Tau Dewa is a clear as day sign. Just as much as their reaction to Tribble Reports. Its no longer about giving the player what they want. Its about creating a system that gets under the skin of a player, a player that seeks to complete objectives and optionals, by denying them the opportunity to complete something without weeks or months of grinding or opening their wallet. They know psychologically that many players are driven to complete things. And if they hold it just out of reach long enough theres a very high chance we'll give in and pay to have it.
And that is what DR is all about. Holding things just out of reach. It wasnt enough that they make a killing off of CStore Ships, it wasnt enough that theyre racking in millions off of a gambling mechanic in the Lockboxes they have. No they need to make MOAR. They dont see us as a playerbase anymore. They see us as Groves of MoneyBag Trees ripe and ready to be picked.
http://s30.postimg.org/xlf5j6mwh/lol_doff_xp.jpg
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Hush. It is the only way to level my alts. And in fact all my chars at present time.
I have zero problems never playing a dil-nerfed-queue ever again, live and let die I guess
I'm not doing stf's either anymore, not even battlezones since they're stuck at lvl 50 (lol)..
I just log in to do doffs and chat with the occasional r&d for mk 2 critDx3 beams
sig
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg
It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
I used to miss exploration. Now I miss them twice as much. At least they would've been a lot more varied than running the same patrols over and over again.
Still reports coming in of people exploiting not getting punished and those not exploiting getting punished.
Gonna own up to it Stephen? Or just ignore and watch your game crash and burn?
this is too good to be something the dev team intended to happen
judging devs by quoting them.
They're going to ignore it. No real choice. If D'Angelo were to admit he wronged ppl, he'd lose face. And if the Devs admitted to such, they'd have to get rid of their leader. Neither of the two is going to happen, of course.
Nevertheless, D'Angelo did plenty damage, that no form of inaction on their end can hope to undo.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
this^^^^^^^
system Lord Baal is dead
It's better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it to everyone.
Seventeen times faster than.... than what? Faster than the average solo 5k dps player who takes coffee breaks between runs? Faster than your spreadsheet optimizing whale milking predicted?
Rather than putting water on the fire, your gasoline now has the forums burning seventeen times hotter.
This is rich.
Okay, so it seems you are accusing D'Angelo of being either:
A) Maniacally Evil and/or
He seems to me to be able to hold down a job and otherwise function normally in society, so I don't know what evidence you have of this. But the behavior of which you're accusing he and the other devs is completely irrational.
Why on earth would anyone in any business punish loyal paying customers? Why on earth would anyone punish customers randomly and for no reason?
There is no reason. And since D'Angelo is not a raving, drooling maniac, the only possible answer to this is that you are completely and utterly wrong.
For your side to be right, all involved Cryptic and PWE executives have to be insane. For the other side to be right...you and some other folks took advantage of (i.e. exploited...look up the definition of the word) a bug, got caught doing, and lost what you gained by it.
Simple logic, Occam's Razor, says that the devs are right on this one.
Bogus reductio ad absurdum. In the real world, companies have *every* reason to cover up their mistakes. Produce a car that has a number of gas tanks that explode spontaneously?! Cover it up! Produce iPhones that have a metal rim that can short-cut? Deny! Have an EP that made a severe judgement in error?! Well, you figure this one out on your own.
So, your response to, "D'Angelo would have to be maniacally evil and/or insane to do that of which you are accusing him" is essentially, "Yes, he's an evil maniac and the rest of the company are all covering for him"?
Wait a second, you beleive that:
A) Cryptic were made aware of a bug in tribble and chose not to fix it
C) Called the whole playerbase cheaters, then came back with a really weak, vague and self-serving apology in an attempt to save face
Requires fewer assumptions than:
A) the majority of players weren't aware that 5X stronger enemies were not supposed to give 5X more EXP?
...i think you need to re-evaluate the principle of Occam's Razor.
And another apologist has entered the arena. How long before realizes his failure in logic wont work here?
Never said that. If he was being accused of, for example, making leveling a lot slower in this expansion to sell more XP Boosts for $10 a pop on the Zen Store, I'd say, "Well, yeah, that's probably part of it. They're in business to make money."
If people were here asserting that the numbers he pulled from the servers were in error somehow, or the means used to identify the users of the exploit were untrustworthy and needed to be re-examined, I would understand that and I'd hope that everything was double-checked to ensure accuracy.
If people here start accusing him of being the Boston Strangler, based on nothing, then yeah, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
People on these boards are asserting that a certain narrative is true. That narrative is preposterous.
No, my response to that was that you engage in totally bogus reductio ad absurdum, painting a laughable hyperbole that divides the world in people who either tell the truth, or are "maniacally evil and/or insane."
- this is not true i was not called a cheater and they did not call the entire playerbase cheater they called 250 people cheaters --
so you have 1 out of 3 points valid. -
- never heard this one before someone made this up along the line some players I guess...
When in the history of online gaming has a company actually gone into detail about the exploit or even verbalized its presence - this is pretty common and in terms of their actions they have made a decision and are not about to back peddle on it ever. Players have a choice wait for support to work which probably will take a couple weeks or just ignore it and move on. All the sabre rattling in the world will not change what has happened.
It probably over time will cause more harm then good because its over with and in the scheme of life the universe and everything is actually pretty minor considering and really there is a point at which any normal person would let go.. its just a game .. pixels that one day will be deleted because in the end of it all we are just renting them for as long as they decide to let us rent them for and nothing more.
Really?
The majority of players honestly thought that when Cryptic released a new expansion with 10 new levels and a bunch of new content that what they intended was for people to power level through all 10 plus 50 skill points in a matter of hours by running one piece of old, pre-expansion content over and over again?
Really?
Don't be precious. A minority of players discovered an 'unintended feature' (read: bug) that allowed them to render the intended challenge of all that leveling trivial and a minority of those players chose to take advantage (i.e. exploit) it. A minority of those got caught and had what they gained by it taken away.
That's very easy to believe. It happens in games all the time.
You should really stop speaking for others, you clearly don't know, or have dealt with in person. But that in part, is what the OP did as well. So there is always that. Same perspective, or lack thereof.
Personally I soloed all the content, and ran out of it in a matter of day(s) before starting to join teams. If there had been some meat to this so-called expansion, this could at least in part have been avoided. It was however released in such an anorectic state, there was nothing left to do, even when taking your time and listening to everything Neelix had to say.
So between replaying Neelix, do the nerfed PvE queues, or do the patrols, the patrols seemed the least of the available evils. The keyword here being AVAILABLE. I would have done the patrols again in the same situation, ad infinitum, with every knowledge of all of this, for without a choice, you take the road before you. This "addition" is as narrow a road you can get, and still pretend it is somehow passsable.
No, i expected that when the new content went live with 10 new levels, that i would be able to progress through those missions exactly as i did with all the previous story missions. i.e. WITHOUT having to stop between each and every one and grind the same patrols over and over again for 1-2 hours.
At the very least, the average player probably expected to gain those new 10 levels exactly as fast as they had gained the last 10.
Remember when you always used to see 100+ playing Conduit Elite or Crystalline Catastrophe Elite pre-DR? were we all supposed to assume that it must have been broken, otherwise why would there be so many people there? Of course not, it was simply the Dominant Strategy. So why, on this of all occasions, where the playeres supposed to magically 'know' that THIS was wrong, and not just a shift in said strategy to account for the near empty Queues?
Those weren't the only players who got reverted. People who never set foot in Tau Dewa got reverted.
Apparently playing on Elite and doing too much DPS was grounds for reversion because it would appear that they defined exploiting simply as SP received per hour, not taking into account that some players do enough DPS even in new content to advance at a faster rate... and, for that matter, that Cryptic sells progress in the form of SP boosters.
Meaning that if you were performing at the upper end of what they considered the "right" leveling speed and used SP boosters that pushed you over, they took back the SP that you paid real money for.
What you define as "evil maniac", apparently, I define as "not particularly evil but disappointingly typical."
^^ Well said!
I do only ~22k. That is probably still considerably more than the average casual player. And I was grinding the TRIBBLE out the 'Shutdown' mission (old Cardasssian storyline mission at DS9). And I hardly took a break (in hindsight, seems I should have idled more).