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EP speaks on this week’s exploit

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  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    This is my response to that.

    People exploited, I get that. They got penalized, I get that.

    But according to the EP, there was a leeway involved. That through the penalization it was decided on a curve, with many players getting what they were not intended to get, and getting off without a hitch.

    Personally, I think this was one of the right decisions made. And if people really want to quit the game over this, I wish them luck on whatever video game they choose to play next.

    Its hard to satisfy everyone. To me they should have tested the expansion out more before releasing. And they should have come out and told better before it got out of hand. However if people leaves over a TRIBBLE up. Then thats them. Things happen, we all learn, get over it, and move on.

    I plan to keep on playing. Cause we are only human and we make mistakes. I think they did the right thing and had to make a hard decision.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    solspot wrote: »
    Have fun in your empty game in 2 months sycophants.

    Bye.

    can i haz ur stuffs
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • beldacarbeldacar Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Holy mother of God.

    17x the normal rate????????????

    That's like 3 levels per patrol mission! They must've been synching with a level 1 or something to get even close to that much XP...and the dil they must've pulled from that...

    *shudders*

    Glad to hear that you fixed this, EP, that would've blown the game's economy.

    Hope the worst of the exploiting scum got permabanned.

    You do realize that, no matter how much dilithium they earned, they still only get to refine 8 or 9K per day like everyone else? So how that would've "blown the game's economy" I'm not sure....
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I was playing 'Shutdown' (near DS9). It seems they're now saying we should have known those NPCs were paying out too much. Why?! It's been years since I missioned there! On Elite, these missions really are considerably harder too. It made perfect sense to me that these NPCs bosses would go down for like 1,000 XP. For comparision, the bosses in the current DR patrol missions went for about the same. And do you know how long it takes to kill a Vaadwaur boss on Elite? The, what, 900 or so points they gave, iirc, seemed absolutely appropriate (and still does).

    I still feel very groggy about this. Not in the least because I realize I'm SOL. The CEO posted, and did an excellent job of it. Game Over. I'm now left with determining whether I'm really willing to go on, having to grind another few months or so, just to get back what I was rudely robbed of. And all, it seems, because I had the 'exploitative' audicity to play on Elite, something I did for no greater reason than why I also played STFs on Elite. You, Cryptic, assumed blanket malice, and accordingly lashed out harshly and disproportionately.

    Its not just what you killed. It is how fast you killed them.

    He explicitly stated they compared your XP per time VS average XP per time. If your DPS was say, 30% lower, you likely would not have been considered to be an exploiter. If you would have left your toon logged on for an hour doing nothing, you may not have been considered an exploiter.

    Unless I misunderstood something.
  • abfabfleetabfabfleet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I still feel very groggy about this. Not in the least because I realize I'm SOL. The CEO posted, and did an excellent job of it. Game Over. I'm now left with determining whether I'm really willing to go on, having to grind another few months or so, just to get back what I was rudely robbed of. And all, it seems, because I had the 'exploitative' audicity to play on Elite, something I did for no greater reason than why I also played STFs on Elite. You, Cryptic, assumed blanket malice, and accordingly lashed out harshly and disproportionately.

    I say stay, there are a few players that over a period of 4 years who you randomly see and occasionally happen to see them in action. STAY! File the ticket... and see what comes of it. Besides, I don't think it would be hard for you at all to get back what you lost... it hurts but deep down inside you know you love this game... Just sayin ;)
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The development team became aware of a potential leveling exploit on Wednesday morning this week. After initial investigations, we decided to shut down access to the maps that were being used for this power-leveling to perform a deeper investigation.

    The investigation uncovered several different bugs in the game that were combining to allow players to level at approximately 17x the rate that players were leveling anywhere else in the game. This was definitely not intended behavior. Fixes for the various bugs went live with the update on Thursday morning, and we opened up the blocked maps.

    During the investigation, we pulled data on every player’s behavior, and then we zeroed in on the players who were gaining levels at unreasonable rates. All of these players were on the maps under investigation. We found that quite a few players dabbled in these maps, but it was really a very small number of players who decided to take advantage of the bugs in excess. In fact, in the end there were around 300 characters (spanning around 250 accounts) that crossed the line from being efficient into taking significant advantage of the bugs. 300 is a very small number from the hundreds of thousands of characters playing.

    This raises the question of what an exploit is. I’ll loosely define an exploit is any unintended behavior in the game that a player can use to gain significant advantage over others. How does a player know something is unintended? That is definitely open to interpretation and was a huge focus of the discussion in the dev team. In this case, we feel that the difference in leveling speed between playing other content in the game and playing the content that was singled out this week was so large that it is reasonable for players to think “this is too good to be something the dev team intended to happen”. We find exploits regularly, but it is uncommon to find one that was used to achieve enough of an advantage to require taking action.

    Once deciding that there was an exploit, the question is whether action is required or not, which means looking at who dabbled and who took advantage? This was done with an intensive data analysis. In the end, we decided that the vast majority of players were being fairly reasonable in their use of the maps to level, but there was a space in the data between players who gained up to 10 specialization points using the exploit, and those who gained more than 10 specialization points. I decided to make this the cut-off line and anyone who got more than 10 points on those maps had the excess points removed from their characters. For example, a character earning 15 points, 12 of which were on the exploitable maps, would lose 2 specialization points, and a character earning 60 points all of which were on exploitable maps would lose 50 points.

    I have looked into the claim that some players were not using the exploit maps, but so far every claim I have come across has not held up under data pulls. If anyone still thinks they lost specialization points when they should not have should please file a CS ticket. CS tickets get a tracking number that can ensure we take care of everyone with a concern.

    I’m certain that at least some of the players feel they were acting in the right. That errors the dev team makes should be fair game. There are likely some others who feel that I drew the line in the wrong place, either too high or too low. It is challenging to walk the line between protecting the player base that wants the game to be fair, and allowing players to be efficient and “game the game”. In this case, a judgment was made and the line was drawn in order to protect the integrity of the game for the hundreds of thousands of players who did not and cannot do this going forward. Reviewing the data further, I still feel it was a good place to draw it.

    Our communication on this issue was apparently unclear. I’ll finish up this afternoon by apologizing for not being more clear about what happened. We normally do not post about actions taken to correct exploits, and I did not expect this correction to require more than a simple post. I was mistaken and I hope this clarifies what happened for those that want a more complete story.

    I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

    Stephen D’Angelo
    Executive Producer
    Star Trek Online


    Ok this is what i was hoping for an answer from cryptic thanks and yes this does explain alot

    idk about other players but i thank you for the response and the answer we now have. :)

    Now then i hope the flame war ends we got our answer and it is indeed resonable and even i understand the reasons behind the tau dewa lockdown.
  • varekraithvarekraith Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If only Cryptic had a separate server to test things on before they go live. Where people can log in and find all the nasty bugs and exploits and report them to the devs to be fixed.
    Some kind of...test server. I know! We can call it Tribble!
    Damn I'm smart.
    :rolleyes:
  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The official word that I was waiting for.


    It is appreciated.
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    varekraith wrote: »
    If only Cryptic had a separate server to test things on before they go live. Where people can log in and find all the nasty bugs and exploits and report them to the devs to be fixed.
    Some kind of...test server. I know! We can call it Tribble!
    Damn I'm smart.
    :rolleyes:

    Tribble whaaaaaaaaaaaaat???? Thought those things were considered an infestation, that is an infestation on the Holodeck. :P
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  • potencethe1stpotencethe1st Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So because I have 20k+ dps I was hit for 2 of my 13 points.

    Awesome. I'm done.

    Contacting a lawyer about purchasing a product (xp boosts), using it for gain, then having said gain removed by the seller without reimbursement of said product.

    Thats called theft.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    farmallm wrote: »
    Its hard to satisfy everyone. To me they should have tested the expansion out more before releasing. And they should have come out and told better before it got out of hand. However if people leaves over a TRIBBLE up. Then thats them. Things happen, we all learn, get over it, and move on.

    I plan to keep on playing. Cause we are only human and we make mistakes.

    I agree 100%. The fact the penalization was graded on a curve was forgiving enough. If anything, this dilemma called to attention that Cryptic needs to more thoroughly vet their builds they want to send to holodeck.

    Stop setting release dates months in advance. Finding a massive, game-breaking bug that takes 5 months to find, reproduce and fix, but the game is given a hard deadline of 4 months is nonsensical.

    It shows an unwillingness to thoroughly debug your release, and an unwillingness to be patient. If you want players to be patient for you, then please extend us the same courtesy and be patient with your QA and Developer Team to investigate and fix bugs and be willing to delay releases more, and raise the threshold of 'acceptable' bug to be in the game.

    This exploit discovered in Tau Dewa should be seen as a warning I have been preaching for a few years now.

    And if the rumors are true that this bug has been documented and sent to QA from Tribble, then I find that unacceptable. Remove Tribble entirely or overhaul how you test your builds from the ground up, and eat the financial drain it causes.

    This is not a mistake we want to see happen again.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The morale of the story is
    Q & A should have better handle on such things in the future.

    And if reported by testers from Trimble, the bug spray shall be used immediately.

    Carry on...
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  • soundwisdomsoundwisdom Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Too little, too late.
  • calaminthacalamintha Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    Top tier players completing content to get rewards 16x faster has been par for the course mate. Should everyone in the DPS channels be banned for exploiting?

    Some people actually think there were mobs that gave 17 times more XP per kill and are happy to see those "exploiters" quit.
  • edited October 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    truewarper wrote: »
    The morale of the story is
    Q & A should have better handle on such things in the future.

    And if reported by testers from Trimble, the bug spray shall be used immediately.

    Carry on...

    It isn't QA. It was never QA.

    It has always been the gatekeepers (Producers) willingness to make players suffer on Holodeck for the sake of pushing a build out as quickly as possible. Encouraged by their Publisher, and coaxed by Marketing.

    I have faith in their ability to find, investigate, and report bugs.

    I have faith in their ability to fix them.

    I do not have faith in the Producers ability to delay builds when they really should, or provide enough labor hours to get a better Holodeck build than we deserve.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • abfabfleetabfabfleet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Successfully submitted ticket ID #2,836,451.



    Please check my ticket. You will find I did not exploiting and taking TWO points of THIRTEEN is just petty, malicious, and considering the money I spend on this game, infuriating.

    You can bet your TRIBBLE I'm gonna talk about it to my gamer buddies who run a few site.

    You can bet if this isn't reversed and players WRONGLY accused of EXPLOITING, when they clearly arent, (in a sophomoric attempt to deflect the responsibility of your actions onto the community in a divide and conquer manner) arent offered an apology you will see the end of my playing this game or any cryptic product for that matter.

    Also I will be finding out if I can have action taken due to XP boosts being purchased and then taken back without a refund.

    Fix this **** or I will.

    2? so 2 days you can gain these points back... his apology was given. As far as your purchases or otherwise, you can try and dispute them, goodluck. The card company will tell you, sorry you authorized these charges. And FYI if you used AMEX your screwed, MMO's or online games when using your Code on the back of your card confirms your identity with the proper address & they don't cover online games. Just sayin... :D
  • elvnswordselvnswords Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I find myself in a rather unique posistion, I am not at ALL affected by the actions of cryptic at the moment. My computer died in September so I have been living the game vicariously through my friends.

    I am however a lifetime subscriber, and will be back. So I do feel I have a dog in this fight.

    Frankly speaking, Cryptic, if the rewards for the individual enemies were not out of line with the rewards given for enemies of equal rank in the DR content of equal level on elite, then there is no reason to have rolled back the rewards these people earned.

    People, if you earned things at a rate that was apprently 17x faster then intended then yes, you were exploiting.

    Now, as for the whole playstyle arguement.

    Grow the *BLEEP* up both of you! Some people aren't going to like your new content unless they are the max level for it. Some people aren't going to like the new content at all Cryptic. Frankly speaking, Voyager is a niche market within the Star Trek Fanbase, and while tapping into it is a great idea, basing an expansion on it, well just be aware that not all Trekkies are Voyager fans.

    MMOs are based on the Time Investment Paradox... innately they are trying to hook you for one of 2 things, Time or Money. Time spent playing the game, and thus generating revenue for them in monthly subscription fees, (not the case with this game neccasarilly), or Money. Well unfortuanately that is all they try to hook you for in this game, so the Time gates have become ridiculous with money hooks to bypass them.

    IE: It's going to be 24 hours before that item is crafted, want it faster, Pay Me.
    OOO did you get blown up again, a new ship with higher hull might solve that problem, or that new T5U might make it so you can get through that mission, but oooo see that costs Zen... so Pay Me...
    Want to craft that new weapon at all, costs you Dilithium, but you can only refine so much a day, and it costs at least double that. Either be patient (time) or Pay Me (Money).

    So, why is it then that when a group of players find a way to invest they're time wisely, and get what they obviously wanted and were happy with, you felt the need to take it away. From the sound of things it is far more then a mere 250-300 players, unless you managed to hit the vocal board members only. Given the numbers complaining about the rollback I would say it could be as many as 1200 players hit, or perhaps anyone who did a Tau Dewa Patrol during the time in question, a high likelyhood given it's proximity to the beginning area for Delta Rising.

    I think perhaps a long hard look needs to be taken at the script used to punish the people involved, as well as the policy of punishment for grinding in general.

    I have NEVER seen an MMO punish grinding on Dev Made content. If it was a Foundry Map Expoit yea I could understand, but this is Dev Made Content, at best it is something that slipped through your QA and shouldn't have, at worst it is a hissy fit being thrown because not everyone is thrilled with Delta Rising's content.

    Personally as I don't have a dog in the fight (again, computer borked) I look forward still to Delta Rising, and perhaps I will get to be lucky and play it bug free, until then both player and Dev, please communicate more clearly and calmly with one another, you both want the same thing, a thriving, and amazing game community that is literally light years ahead, but without communication, we cannae do it captains...

    EDITTED TO ADD:

    I do agree that people who had XP Boosts active and weren't doing anyhting but flying high end builds (high DPS) should definitely not be punished! XP Boosts are expensive, and the purchase reflects that choosen "grind then run content" playstyle. People who lost results of the use of they're XP Boosts need to have a Zen Refund, or an XP Boost refunded to they're account.
  • unsacredgraveunsacredgrave Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So because I have 20k+ dps I was hit for 2 of my 13 points.

    Awesome. I'm done.

    Contacting a lawyer about purchasing a product (xp boosts), using it for gain, then having said gain removed by the seller without reimbursement of said product.

    Thats called theft.


    no its called fraud.
  • stark2kstark2k Member Posts: 1,467 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    It isn't QA. It was never QA.

    It has always been the gatekeepers (Producers) willingness to make players suffer on Holodeck for the sake of pushing a build out as quickly as possible. Encouraged by their Publisher, and coaxed by Marketing.

    I have faith in their ability to find, investigate, and report bugs.

    I have faith in their ability to fix them.

    I do not have faith in the Producers ability to delay builds when they really should.

    Why should they? It delays them from making a fast buck. If people truly want to make a difference, then boycott the product, which is in this case, STO.

    However; that will never happened because they know people will not stop playing, because it's STAR TREK, & everyone needs their Star Trek fix - especially those who live in their mom basements.
    StarTrekIronMan.jpg
  • xaramanxaraman Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    The morale of the story is
    Q & A should have better handle on such things in the future.
    Here's how Q+A works at Cryptic/PWE:

    PWE: So, how's the expansion coming along?
    Cryptic: Not too bad; still got a few bugs to iron out.
    PWE: Ok, but are the RME functions working and bullet proof? There are no in game exploits that could affect RME?
    Cryptic: No, but there a lot of graphical bugs, especially with older computers and we need time on syncing the VO stuff to text and....
    PWE: ...No hang on. Are the RME systems ready and there's nothing that can break them?
    Cryptic: Well, yes...I suppose
    PWE: We launch on on the 14th of October! Huzzah! Geko, order the usual "bonuses" for the party. Go, be a good boy. Thanks.

    :D
  • unsacredgraveunsacredgrave Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    abfabfleet wrote: »
    2? so 2 days you can gain these points back... his apology was given. As far as your purchases or otherwise, you can try and dispute them, goodluck. The card company will tell you, sorry you authorized these charges. And FYI if you used AMEX your screwed, MMO's or online games when using your Code on the back of your card confirms your identity with the proper address & they don't cover online games. Just sayin... :D


    omg, Im glad I dont live in your country where that is possible. must be murrica I guess.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    no its called fraud.

    No, it's called put your money where your mouth is and issue PWE a chargeback and enjoy your lifetime ban from every PWE game ever made, as long as you get your money from that XP booster back.

    If this poster won't do that, then they're not as serious as they want people to believe.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    elvnswords wrote: »
    I find myself in a rather unique posistion, I am not at ALL affected by the actions of cryptic at the moment. My computer died in September so I have been living the game vicariously through my friends.

    I am however a lifetime subscriber, and will be back. So I do feel I have a dog in this fight.

    Frankly speaking, Cryptic, if the rewards for the individual enemies were not out of line with the rewards given for enemies of equal rank in the DR content of equal level on elite, then there is no reason to have rolled back the rewards these people earned.

    People, if you earned things at a rate that was apprently 17x faster then intended then yes, you were exploiting.

    Now, as for the whole playstyle arguement.

    Grow the *BLEEP* up both of you! Some people aren't going to like your new content unless they are the max level for it. Some people aren't going to like the new content at all Cryptic. Frankly speaking, Voyager is a niche market within the Star Trek Fanbase, and while tapping into it is a great idea, basing an expansion on it, well just be aware that not all Trekkies are Voyager fans.

    MMOs are based on the Time Investment Paradox... innately they are trying to hook you for one of 2 things, Time or Money. Time spent playing the game, and thus generating revenue for them in monthly subscription fees, (not the case with this game neccasarilly), or Money. Well unfortuanately that is all they try to hook you for in this game, so the Time gates have become ridiculous with money hooks to bypass them.

    IE: It's going to be 24 hours before that item is crafted, want it faster, Pay Me.
    OOO did you get blown up again, a new ship with higher hull might solve that problem, or that new T5U might make it so you can get through that mission, but oooo see that costs Zen... so Pay Me...
    Want to craft that new weapon at all, costs you Dilithium, but you can only refine so much a day, and it costs at least double that. Either be patient (time) or Pay Me (Money).

    So, why is it then that when a group of players find a way to invest they're time wisely, and get what they obviously wanted and were happy with, you felt the need to take it away. From the sound of things it is far more then a mere 250-300 players, unless you managed to hit the vocal board members only. Given the numbers complaining about the rollback I would say it could be as many as 1200 players hit, or perhaps anyone who did a Tau Dewa Patrol during the time in question, a high likelyhood given it's proximity to the beginning area for Delta Rising.

    I think perhaps a long hard look needs to be taken at the script used to punish the people involved, as well as the policy of punishment for grinding in general.

    I have NEVER seen an MMO punish grinding on Dev Made content. If it was a Foundry Map Expoit yea I could understand, but this is Dev Made Content, at best it is something that slipped through your QA and shouldn't have, at worst it is a hissy fit being thrown because not everyone is thrilled with Delta Rising's content.

    Personally as I don't have a dog in the fight (again, computer borked) I look forward still to Delta Rising, and perhaps I will get to be lucky and play it bug free, until then both player and Dev, please communicate more clearly and calmly with one another, you both want the same thing, a thriving, and amazing game community that is literally light years ahead, but without communication, we cannae do it captains...

    didn't they have a poll a while back about where content should come from and the majority picked Voyager?
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • grayfoxjamesgrayfoxjames Member Posts: 1,516 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I don't know if this makes everything 100% better or fixed but I say it's definetly a step in the right direction. I think all the community wanted in the end was simply an explanation of what happened, how it happened, and why it happened.

    I say, what's done is done, everyone is on equal footing more or less, let's let the wounds heal now and get back to the game.
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  • potencethe1stpotencethe1st Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Here is my customer ticket.

    Use this reference number for follow up: #141024-001657

    Address my concerns or lose me as a customer.

    Thank you.
  • xms9779xms9779 Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    khan5000 wrote: »
    didn't they have a poll a while back about where content should come from and the majority picked Voyager?

    Wait, what??
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So because I have 20k+ dps I was hit for 2 of my 13 points.

    Awesome. I'm done.

    Contacting a lawyer about purchasing a product (xp boosts), using it for gain, then having said gain removed by the seller without reimbursement of said product.

    Thats called theft.
    no its called fraud.

    No is called a games TOS and they reserve the right to change any portion of the game without notification or reimbursment to the player.

    need to read the tos before you play a game and understand them in full
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    stark2k wrote: »
    Why should they? It delays them from making a fast buck. If people truly want to make a difference, then boycott the product, which is in this case, STO.[/url]

    I addressed the boycott issue in another thread already.

    1: We don't have a cohesive community that can agree to a boycott.

    2: We don't have the media attention that is necessary to have concessions made in our favor.

    3: No media will want to cover this episode because STO players have a long history of crying foul. If they picked their battles better, maybe the media would raise their eyebrows and think this was something with merit to it.

    4: There aren't enough of a majority of players who can agree on what specific concessions they want.

    A boycott is just a buzzword used to instill fear, but in practical application a boycott would have absolutely 0 chance of making any meaningful change in the game.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    xms9779 wrote: »
    Wait, what??

    a while back here was a poll on these boards where we were asked what show the next expansion should draw from...Voyager won.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
This discussion has been closed.