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Vanilla ground pvp restriction suggestions
nulonu
Member Posts: 507 Arc User
With the discussion in a couple other threads going into vanilla pvp for ground, I'd like to try and see what would constitute vanilla ground pvp to people. Leave the "I'm the best and you all suck" epeen measuring out of it. If you can't be constructive then there is no need to say anything in this thread.
Now, I've been playing STO and ground pvp for much of the life of STO having gotten my start at Season 3, so my idea of what is "vanilla" pvp for ground may be quite different then someone who started later but maybe a consensus could be reached here. That being said, I'll start below.
I do not propose a level limit of 50. A level 60 is nearing the hp pool of a level 50 prior to the release of Season 4. I recall my first ground tact having over 900 hps. That being the case, I would say a level 60 with equivalent pre S4 gear would appropriatly recreate the feeling at that time and I think it would discourage people if they felt like they had to keep a toon at 50.
Gear:
Weapons: Very Rare MK XI
NO LOBI, REPUTATION, OR LOCKBOX WEAPONS ALLOWED.
Weapons given as rewards from missions(type 3, proton distortion, crm200, etc)are acceptable provided they are not upgraded beyond the initial state.
Other valid weapons would be from the exchange or drops.
Doffs:
No doffs.
Traits:
NO LOCKBOX TRAITS
The exception to this are the traits which are bugged and cannot be removed.
Reputation/Specialization:
No reputation passives or reputation click powers. To align with current vpvp rules, captain specializations are not allowed. A character with Intel specialization, which cannot be removed is not allowed. This is open for debate until the impact on matches can be determined.
Items:
No lobi items
No gambling device.
No food buffs.
Tribble buffs are acceptable.
NO JEM'HADAR NANOENERGY CELLS
NO CRAFTED CONSUMABLES
NO EMBASSY CONSUMABLES OR FLEET BUFF CONSUMABLES
Mission reward devices (ophidian cane, etc) are acceptable.
Vendor consumables only. (Hypos, shield charges etc)
Kits:
Pre-revamp Kits:
Very Rare Mark X
Borg Medical Analyzer is acceptable.
Kit Frames:
Common Mark X with 4 slots and no modifiers. Common MK XI with 4:1 layout may be necessary to recreate some old kit combinations. In this case the fifth slot must be empty.
Modules:
Very Rare MK XI and below.
Kit frames must match the ability layout of pre-revamp kits. If you are unsure how the old kits were set up, feel free to send me a PM.
Below is a skill planner I threw together quickly of what I'm talking about.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=vpvptactgroundexample_0
Some things from before have been removed from the sto planner so I had to put some stand-ins in place.
This isn't a be all end all of what vanilla gpvp should be. It's more to get the discussion going.
Other vanilla pvp rules would apply, builds gateway accessible, positive attitude and behavior etc.
So, if interested or would like to add to the discussion, comment below. If not, well, I get to say I tried. :P
I'm pleased to see the interest and I think the discussion has gone well so far. I think now is the time to set up some matches with these rules in place and see how it works out. I'd like to take part but as I mentioned in another thread my own playtime is limited. If matches with these guidelines take place, please post comments and information about how they went in this thread so more information can be gathered. Thanks all for the interest. Voporak was kind enough to make me an operator in the VPVP channel, so feel free to pm me a request for an invite to that channel.
Now, I've been playing STO and ground pvp for much of the life of STO having gotten my start at Season 3, so my idea of what is "vanilla" pvp for ground may be quite different then someone who started later but maybe a consensus could be reached here. That being said, I'll start below.
I do not propose a level limit of 50. A level 60 is nearing the hp pool of a level 50 prior to the release of Season 4. I recall my first ground tact having over 900 hps. That being the case, I would say a level 60 with equivalent pre S4 gear would appropriatly recreate the feeling at that time and I think it would discourage people if they felt like they had to keep a toon at 50.
Gear:
- Armor: Very Rare MK XI
- Shields: Very Rare MK XI
NO REPUTATION SET OR FLEET ARMOR OR SHIELDS
NO SOLANAE ENVIRONMENTAL SUITS
NO JEM'HADAR ARMOR OR SHIELD
Weapons: Very Rare MK XI
NO LOBI, REPUTATION, OR LOCKBOX WEAPONS ALLOWED.
Weapons given as rewards from missions(type 3, proton distortion, crm200, etc)are acceptable provided they are not upgraded beyond the initial state.
Other valid weapons would be from the exchange or drops.
Doffs:
No doffs.
Traits:
NO LOCKBOX TRAITS
The exception to this are the traits which are bugged and cannot be removed.
Reputation/Specialization:
No reputation passives or reputation click powers. To align with current vpvp rules, captain specializations are not allowed. A character with Intel specialization, which cannot be removed is not allowed. This is open for debate until the impact on matches can be determined.
Items:
No lobi items
No gambling device.
No food buffs.
Tribble buffs are acceptable.
NO JEM'HADAR NANOENERGY CELLS
NO CRAFTED CONSUMABLES
NO EMBASSY CONSUMABLES OR FLEET BUFF CONSUMABLES
Mission reward devices (ophidian cane, etc) are acceptable.
Vendor consumables only. (Hypos, shield charges etc)
Kits:
Pre-revamp Kits:
Very Rare Mark X
Borg Medical Analyzer is acceptable.
Kit Frames:
Common Mark X with 4 slots and no modifiers. Common MK XI with 4:1 layout may be necessary to recreate some old kit combinations. In this case the fifth slot must be empty.
Modules:
Very Rare MK XI and below.
Kit frames must match the ability layout of pre-revamp kits. If you are unsure how the old kits were set up, feel free to send me a PM.
Below is a skill planner I threw together quickly of what I'm talking about.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=vpvptactgroundexample_0
Some things from before have been removed from the sto planner so I had to put some stand-ins in place.
This isn't a be all end all of what vanilla gpvp should be. It's more to get the discussion going.
Other vanilla pvp rules would apply, builds gateway accessible, positive attitude and behavior etc.
So, if interested or would like to add to the discussion, comment below. If not, well, I get to say I tried. :P
I'm pleased to see the interest and I think the discussion has gone well so far. I think now is the time to set up some matches with these rules in place and see how it works out. I'd like to take part but as I mentioned in another thread my own playtime is limited. If matches with these guidelines take place, please post comments and information about how they went in this thread so more information can be gathered. Thanks all for the interest. Voporak was kind enough to make me an operator in the VPVP channel, so feel free to pm me a request for an invite to that channel.
Post edited by nulonu on
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Comments
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Hence why the Ophidian cane is still allowed. Jumping into shooter mode and popping it without a target would pull stealthed players nearby out of cloak. It was all we had back then and it worked. Granted, covert trait was broken for a long time and no cloaked player could get within 5m or so without being detectable. Cloak was really at its worst when the stealth values from module, ambush, and distortion field all stacked with each other , which is not the case anymore.
With higher hit point values and lower damage and crit sev potential I don't foresee that being an issue.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
And at any case, is worth the try.
If some one want to do a couple of test matchs, count me in (@cerritouru)
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
In other words, we are able to keep Juggernaut Systems out of the matches, but not Intelligence Officer ones (captain skill recharge bonuses, flank bonuses, etc). Some of those passives are really strong, like the one that has a chance to give -50 resistance on flanking. With stock gear, that debuff will have a stronger effect. The defensive skill on that front is not nearly as powerful, as with everything Cryptic does regarding defense vs. offense.
STO Screenshot Archive
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Also since these won't be q'd up matches limit no more than 2 classes per team. meaning 2 tact 2 sci 1 eng or a similar makeup. Also consider mixing the teams up don't allow 5 man fs or German premades in one match. After all this is supposed to bring back the "fun" correct?
Oh and btw everyone start clearing the exchange of mk 11 purple plasma (crth x 3) weapons now
Remember the toons i played in last 2 months,all space toons,no any ground trait,minimum ground skill,no any rep things and crappy gear awith old mk x blue kits and still managed to kill fully geared and speced pvpers.Yes i know i would get 30 deaths per match,but only cause me charging and not caring.So if someone can amnage to kill fully specialized pvper with crappy stuff then i think there is no problem when all using same crappy gear and traits.So dont see any problem there.
Yes, you played tact. Is true that the kits gives the tacts a lot of buffs, but your captain skills also plays a big role and at the end of the day, you depend of your gun.
Engis and scis (mainly engis) depend too much of the kits, and thouse kits were nerfed to even half the efect on S7, and now we are going to face players with 900 hp.
Maybe a compromise would be to use the old kits as a bese, but with the new frames and modules.
For example, if a sci wants to play healer, it can use a frame with: medical tric, triage, nanite and vascular (same as the old module).
Like I said, we may have to try it, maybe I am wrong and the old kits are still viable.
And yes, I dont see any way to avoid the main spec tree.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Or consider this they just might have to play team support roles plain and simple. Remember lunge is gonna be virtually useless without doffs I would love to see cloakers come at me in this scenario in ground pvp. Like i said tacts grab the old fire team kit. Honestly I might even consider playing an engy for vpvp just to show you all I will have no problems with it. It does kind of suck though the old engy used to wm fuse and orbital a player forcing a choice between using a cell or hypo. Now we have sure footed and willpower to murder that attack. I would think a healer or dmg fab engy might be more useful in vgpvp. In any case start spamming plasma weapons.
There is no costumization. We could use the OLD kits as a base. You will be force to use the same modules that the old kits have, but at least with out the nerf penalty.
I have a character fully spected to space, I use the old sci exo kit and I can not even kill a bug on the new queue. My exo does like 180 damage, imagine that againts a player with 900 HP.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Yes but your target would also have bad shield,bad gear,no doffs to clear debuffs,would depend on his sci teammate healer if he have one in team.
All this is true see my point about the engy. Like I said we can never fully bring back pre s4 ground pvp what this means is we may all have to play more specific roles that don't work in todays game. Guess what those weak TRIBBLE tacts will need heals in vpvp. Heal them. I would run borg kit on my sci. Engy most likely dmg dealer fabs. since wm and fuse won't do **** even in vpvp due to sure footed and willpower. Tacts fire team all the way.
LOL if you guys really want to go balls out make everyone have zero in willpower. See what it was REALLY like back then.
I have no problem on playing healer or dmg delaer fab, but the old turrents and quantums are a bad joke after the nerf. Hell, even medical tricorder heals only 200 hp.
No one is going to reskill for this.. maybe in 1 moth if this is a success, but for now is just a "last hope dream".
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Yeah I have zero in gens skill so I couldn't run healer fabs if I wanted too.
Yeah I know it is craptic's greed has totally destroyed pvp in this game. Thing is if our community was ta least 50 players larger we might have enough to get this started. The other issue is bet on some of our current community not even wanting to play this style of pvp. They rely too much on auto hypo and a great many cheesy things. Basically count all the germans and select fs out
For a practical example: Fuse Armor will root a target for almost 10 seconds (~5 root, ~5 stun) on a victim without Willpower. That's plenty of time to lay mines and watch their demise.
Remember that some of our status resistance bonuses used to come from Reputation Gear. Without them, Willpower would be the sole responsible for status resistance, and I think it's fair use.
STO Screenshot Archive
For anyone who has never played gpvp this way it will be a bit of a surprise the learning curve needed I think.
The size of the gpvp community is a challenge but that's why I don't feel a seperate channel for a vanilla version is needed. We have an established vanilla pvp channel with over 100 peeps in it which everyone seeking to participate in a ground version should request to join.
I'll just reiterate that my suggestion above isn't set in stone rules. Minerva makes a good point that engineer mk x kits were nerfed hard when the customizable kits came out, however, chroniton mine damage became more noticeably capable of outright killing someone when hp pools dropped post S4 and their damage steadily increased from then until the customizable kits came out. Prior to that they were more for area denial and the slow.
i don't see how we could allow anything but mk x kits since once you get into customizable kits you unlock passive bonuses that kit frames provide now.
Specializations would still need to be banned I think and yes that would eliminate some of my characters as well. So a vpvp toon wouldn't spend the points.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
There have been reports of people losing their specialization points after today's maintenance. Perhaps you can still join :P
STO Screenshot Archive
I have spend not a single point yet (I still dont decide if I will spec for space or ground, now that ground seems to be on worst shape that space with the new TRIBBLE intel modules).
But if we limit the population of already really small community, is going to be super hard to make this happend. And beside, there is NO way to check that a player have or not spended points on the spec tree.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
True, it would have to be honor system. Since the juggernaut run is horribly broken that one would be obvious and other do shown a buff on the tray, such as headshot.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Anyway, it seems that space VPVP is having the same issue than us.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
May just have to deal with it until/unless we can turn them all off.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
Even if we can't work something out to allow me to join in easily, I still like the fact that people are talking about ground PVP, and also like that you seem to be taking "let's find a way to have some fun" as a starting point. I don't know about you, but I've found myself having less and less fun as we've been getting more and more toys to play with.
A few questions for you nulonu.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Same as you,i dont even remember last time i was in match that was actually fun,more toys they add less fun i have.I liked pvp with old kit system and less toys so much more.
Yeah, the specs are a bit of a Pandora's Box. If I open it, I can't close it.
Oh and Nulonu, I will promote you to Operator next time I'm in-game so you can invite people as necessary.
I think that is the best solution.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com