The ability to compete with others -- be that the 15K DPS minimum that is supposedly required for the new Elite STF's , or the ability to compete with others in PVP .
In short , the ability to participate in "end game" as we will know it in less then a day .
You may find it funny , but among the "have not's " in the game , you may find those who would love to get back the random award generator that we had in the original STF's .
At least that gave you a feeling of "I might get lucky today ! " .
Anybody remember that feeling in STO ?
To me it was nicer then "I still have 4-8-12 months to grind in Crafting ..." .
The irony is not the "pay to win what ?" question .
The irony is that now with the clear need to participate / pay for crafting , upgrading , etc. , you just got a totally more complicated route to get to the exact same point the worthless progression of the Reputation System lead you to .
With the Rep system , you did not grind your rear off to get gear to unlock some new harder content to play .
You just did the grind to do the exact same content you did before -- with just a few conveniences thrown your way (faster remodulation etc.) .
And what will you do when you finally get your T5-U / Mk14 / Epic Gold gear ?
Will some new raid or dungeon make itself available to you to make use of your newly acquired powers ?
Nope .
It'll be just the same old grind ... -- ISE for 960 Dil .... again .... whoo-hooo ... :rolleyes:
When PvP becomes more balanced and prevalent in the game, then you will have a competitive edge and you could say that people are paying to win. But at the moment, there is no winning in this game.
Cheers
If that were to happen, and I won't hold my breath, it can still depend on the skill of the player. I played BGs in WoW, never touched arena, so my PvP gear was always behind that of the arena players. Even with that I have beaten some arena geared players.
This is because even though both are PvP enviroments, BGs require a different skill set to those required for arena. If a player has exclusively done arena, or only done BGs as a grind for "starter" arena gear, then they tend not to have the skill set for full BG play. This is why the top arena exclusive players can be beaten by the top BG exclusive players.
The same applies the other way round, with BG players moving onto arean play.
OP, the problem with your theory is there is no need to spend money at all, all can be done with dilithium, ok so if you want to craft or upgrade and are not happy to wait till you have enough dil then sure you will need to spend money to buy dilithium.
the thing is where do you think that dilithium comes from? its from players who have been grinding dilithium and saving it to buy zen, if they can save for what they want so can you.
also like so many others you are jumping the gun, you dont know what sort of gear you will get from DR in mission rewards, rep rewards ect.
if you were to wait a few months see what you get then go from there, you might get enough stuff that you wont have to craft or upgrade loads but even if you dont you will at least have saved a fair bit of dil in the interim to give you a head start.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The ability to compete with others -- be that the 15K DPS minimum that is supposedly required for the new Elite STF's , or the ability to compete with others in PVP .
In short , the ability to participate in "end game" as we will know it in less then a day .
You may find it funny , but among the "have not's " in the game , you may find those who would love to get back the random award generator that we had in the original STF's .
At least that gave you a feeling of "I might get lucky today ! " .
Anybody remember that feeling in STO ?
To me it was nicer then "I still have 4-8-12 months to grind in Crafting ..." .
The irony is not the "pay to win what ?" question .
The irony is that now with the clear need to participate / pay for crafting , upgrading , etc. , you just got a totally more complicated route to get to the exact same point the worthless progression of the Reputation System lead you to .
With the Rep system , you did not grind your rear off to get gear to unlock some new harder content to play .
You just did the grind to do the exact same content you did before -- with just a few conveniences thrown your way (faster remodulation etc.) .
And what will you do when you finally get your T5-U / Mk14 / Epic Gold gear ?
Will some new raid or dungeon make itself available to you to make use of your newly acquired powers ?
Nope .
It'll be just the same old grind ... -- ISE for 960 Dil .... again .... whoo-hooo ... :rolleyes:
Pay 2 Win is just easier to say than Pay 2 Not Complete Things at a Rate of Progression Only Appreciable by Geologists.
The ability to compete with others -- be that the 15K DPS minimum that is supposedly required for the new Elite STF's , or the ability to compete with others in PVP .
In short , the ability to participate in "end game" as we will know it in less then a day .
The endgame queue tiering boils down to, "get better gear so you can run harder versions of the same mission!".
Putting aside PVP - already an elitist arms race - all players that refuse to grind / pay "lose" is the ability to play the hardest settings of the queued missions. That, IMO, is not "losing".
As much as I dislike aspects of the new upgrade system, it is a reasonable response to the way that a chunk of the playerbase blitzes through any new system and then complains that the game is too easy. I would assume that "P2W" element are the big spenders who effectively subsidise the rest of us, so introducing a separate tier for them to play in does not seem unreasonable.
Aslong as there is any way to get the same stats or abilities, per definition it is not pay2win.
The method to uptain the same would have to be something like larger time span than the game is expected to live or whatever.
So call it "realistically possible within an acceptable timeframe" way of getting the same stats and abilities.
Meaning crafting or getting a lockbox ship might not be instant but it's still possible to obtain for free.
It don't really matter that you can do it faster with cash, the only important thing is if you can do it not without.
Don't get me wrong the crafting paywall is like the no. 1 or no. 2 most pitiful thing I have seen them done right after nerfing vendor trash but it's not pay2win.
Well no offense but then he has misunderstood the premise of the game completely and additionally that it has actually changed in the opposite direction of what he thinks aswell.
From the get-go the premise was "dilithium as a time resource". If you spend time, you earn dil for your time.
Then other people can buy your time.
So you either spend time and not money or you spend money and not time.
Thing about that is, no matter how much money you throw in there the reputation system has you grinding like low-life free to play account - against its own main principle.
When crafting got a way to skip ahead it actually returned to the "spend money or spend time".
Up until now you could make a point for cash people not getting their product so the game has acutally moved closer to what it promised 2 years ago, not further away.
HOWEVER, this time it comes at the expense of f2p'ers in that you are no longer getting "dil for time" for doing the current reputation timegate clone, aka crafting.
That said, EVERYONE is getting shafted together royally and equally when they started laughing, high-fiving eachother, as they realized no one is asking them to put in the [mods] they promised us and stop the dil lottery with items.
Pay to Advance Quickly would be more appropriate...
There is nothing you can buy for money that will give you a "I win" button.
As much as I hate to admit it...
I think there are two misconceptions commonly occuring:
1) Pay to Advance more Quickly is not pay-to-win. As long as the end point is the same and reachable with or without money, it's not pay-to-win.
2) Pay-To-Win does not actually mean that you get an IWIN Button. It just means that you have a mechanical advantage over people that don't spend money. For example, if a ship gets one extra console slot only if you pay money for it, you have a pay-to-win advantage, even if you're personally incapable of using that advantage.
But the "problem" or "trick" in Startrek Online is that everything you can buy for money, you can also grind for. As long as the Dilithium Exchange is running, you have a way to turn Dilithium into Zen.
The biggest problem of Pay-To-Win used to be that it created a barrier between the haves and have-nots. It created a "second class" player - the one that didn't put up the money and would always be at a mechanical disadvantage over those that were willing and able to spend money. That alienated the "free" players - sure in the end, you want those free players to give you money, but if you alienate them enough, they leave, without giving you money, and lowering the number of players of your game and thus making the game feel mre empty. In MMOs, players are "content".
But that is not the only problem with Pay-To-Win in my opinion. The other problem is that it encourages power creep. And even if STO's model can never be strictly pay-to-win because of the dilithium exchange, it definitely encourages power creep. It creates an incentive for the game designers to put deliberately more powerful items (for STO, that is mostly ships), because if all else fails, people like to get more powerful toys, and if the grind takes too long for them, some are willing to pay.
Aside from exploiting typical player behaviour (which you might find distasteful or not), it has another problem - it lessens variety at higher levels of play. On your average Normal STF Run or the casual PvP game or for levelling, it doesn't mattter. But at the high end where you want to optimize your builds and tactics, you will also want the best toys - and the constant power creep ensures that only a small number of available options is "viable" for this type of play.
Apparently games like DOTA or LOL managed to avoid this, as far as I know. A new hero brings a new play style, but not neccessarily one that is inherently superior. It may counter the current flavor of the month play style, but it can be countered in turn by other heroes, creating a varied gameplay for PvP.
The same could work for PvE - using different team builds, executing the perfect sequence of abilities using a mix of ships.
Sure, it doesn't help that STO - even without lockboxes, lobi or fleet ships is not balanced, but at least there you could argue that a few tweaks to BO abilities or new BO abilities and/or NPCs changes you could try to achieve that balance. But you can't balance "Everything is equal, but +2 turn rate and an extra console". It's just plain better.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
My largest issue, is that this new upgrade system seems to be the ONLY viable way to get MK XIV gear of any quality (and I'll not say anything about the Tire 5U/6 ship silliness). Effectively defeating the purpose of running challenging End Game instances in the first place. The system is backwards. In just about every other successfully MMO, a player reaches level cap acquires basic gear, typically via crafting and or random quests, so that they can do basic End Game instances, which in turn would get them gear to do the truly challenging End Game instances and raids (be nice if STO had some of them btws) which then award them the Highest Quality possible gear, as a reward for being Awesome.
My point in its simplest form is:
Doing End Game PvE Q's on any difficulty, should have a CHANCE to award players High Quality End Game gear. OUT RIGHT. (BTW random drops off of Trash Mobs don't count)
Otherwise whats the point of busting your Butt to finish one of the new "Elite" PvE Q's? Bragging Rights? Call me crazy but I'd prefer something tangible to go along with my Bragging Rights.
To Clarify:
I like the idea of the Upgrade System. The logistics of it are a bit absurd, imo, currently but I like that all my gear obtained over the last 4 years doesn't have to become Vendor Trash. Just wish the system was a bit more realistic that's all.
Also I don't even mind the games Time Gating, but Time Gating should NOT be an MMO's END GAME. Why it shouldn't, should not have to be explained. Hint: ITS BORING
Secondary Point:
End Game PvE should be legitimately rewarding on its own.
#RiskReward #SToDontGotNone
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." ~Spock
Comments
Convenience .
Effectiveness .
The ability to compete with others -- be that the 15K DPS minimum that is supposedly required for the new Elite STF's , or the ability to compete with others in PVP .
In short , the ability to participate in "end game" as we will know it in less then a day .
You may find it funny , but among the "have not's " in the game , you may find those who would love to get back the random award generator that we had in the original STF's .
At least that gave you a feeling of "I might get lucky today ! " .
Anybody remember that feeling in STO ?
To me it was nicer then "I still have 4-8-12 months to grind in Crafting ..." .
The irony is not the "pay to win what ?" question .
The irony is that now with the clear need to participate / pay for crafting , upgrading , etc. , you just got a totally more complicated route to get to the exact same point the worthless progression of the Reputation System lead you to .
With the Rep system , you did not grind your rear off to get gear to unlock some new harder content to play .
You just did the grind to do the exact same content you did before -- with just a few conveniences thrown your way (faster remodulation etc.) .
And what will you do when you finally get your T5-U / Mk14 / Epic Gold gear ?
Will some new raid or dungeon make itself available to you to make use of your newly acquired powers ?
Nope .
It'll be just the same old grind ... -- ISE for 960 Dil .... again .... whoo-hooo ... :rolleyes:
If that were to happen, and I won't hold my breath, it can still depend on the skill of the player. I played BGs in WoW, never touched arena, so my PvP gear was always behind that of the arena players. Even with that I have beaten some arena geared players.
This is because even though both are PvP enviroments, BGs require a different skill set to those required for arena. If a player has exclusively done arena, or only done BGs as a grind for "starter" arena gear, then they tend not to have the skill set for full BG play. This is why the top arena exclusive players can be beaten by the top BG exclusive players.
The same applies the other way round, with BG players moving onto arean play.
the thing is where do you think that dilithium comes from? its from players who have been grinding dilithium and saving it to buy zen, if they can save for what they want so can you.
also like so many others you are jumping the gun, you dont know what sort of gear you will get from DR in mission rewards, rep rewards ect.
if you were to wait a few months see what you get then go from there, you might get enough stuff that you wont have to craft or upgrade loads but even if you dont you will at least have saved a fair bit of dil in the interim to give you a head start.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The endgame queue tiering boils down to, "get better gear so you can run harder versions of the same mission!".
Putting aside PVP - already an elitist arms race - all players that refuse to grind / pay "lose" is the ability to play the hardest settings of the queued missions. That, IMO, is not "losing".
As much as I dislike aspects of the new upgrade system, it is a reasonable response to the way that a chunk of the playerbase blitzes through any new system and then complains that the game is too easy. I would assume that "P2W" element are the big spenders who effectively subsidise the rest of us, so introducing a separate tier for them to play in does not seem unreasonable.
Aslong as there is any way to get the same stats or abilities, per definition it is not pay2win.
The method to uptain the same would have to be something like larger time span than the game is expected to live or whatever.
So call it "realistically possible within an acceptable timeframe" way of getting the same stats and abilities.
Meaning crafting or getting a lockbox ship might not be instant but it's still possible to obtain for free.
It don't really matter that you can do it faster with cash, the only important thing is if you can do it not without.
Don't get me wrong the crafting paywall is like the no. 1 or no. 2 most pitiful thing I have seen them done right after nerfing vendor trash but it's not pay2win.
Sure, there's no P2W... there's just, pay to skip the timegates or spend a literal year or more grinding.
From the get-go the premise was "dilithium as a time resource". If you spend time, you earn dil for your time.
Then other people can buy your time.
So you either spend time and not money or you spend money and not time.
Thing about that is, no matter how much money you throw in there the reputation system has you grinding like low-life free to play account - against its own main principle.
When crafting got a way to skip ahead it actually returned to the "spend money or spend time".
Up until now you could make a point for cash people not getting their product so the game has acutally moved closer to what it promised 2 years ago, not further away.
HOWEVER, this time it comes at the expense of f2p'ers in that you are no longer getting "dil for time" for doing the current reputation timegate clone, aka crafting.
That said, EVERYONE is getting shafted together royally and equally when they started laughing, high-fiving eachother, as they realized no one is asking them to put in the [mods] they promised us and stop the dil lottery with items.
I think there are two misconceptions commonly occuring:
1) Pay to Advance more Quickly is not pay-to-win. As long as the end point is the same and reachable with or without money, it's not pay-to-win.
2) Pay-To-Win does not actually mean that you get an IWIN Button. It just means that you have a mechanical advantage over people that don't spend money. For example, if a ship gets one extra console slot only if you pay money for it, you have a pay-to-win advantage, even if you're personally incapable of using that advantage.
But the "problem" or "trick" in Startrek Online is that everything you can buy for money, you can also grind for. As long as the Dilithium Exchange is running, you have a way to turn Dilithium into Zen.
The biggest problem of Pay-To-Win used to be that it created a barrier between the haves and have-nots. It created a "second class" player - the one that didn't put up the money and would always be at a mechanical disadvantage over those that were willing and able to spend money. That alienated the "free" players - sure in the end, you want those free players to give you money, but if you alienate them enough, they leave, without giving you money, and lowering the number of players of your game and thus making the game feel mre empty. In MMOs, players are "content".
But that is not the only problem with Pay-To-Win in my opinion. The other problem is that it encourages power creep. And even if STO's model can never be strictly pay-to-win because of the dilithium exchange, it definitely encourages power creep. It creates an incentive for the game designers to put deliberately more powerful items (for STO, that is mostly ships), because if all else fails, people like to get more powerful toys, and if the grind takes too long for them, some are willing to pay.
Aside from exploiting typical player behaviour (which you might find distasteful or not), it has another problem - it lessens variety at higher levels of play. On your average Normal STF Run or the casual PvP game or for levelling, it doesn't mattter. But at the high end where you want to optimize your builds and tactics, you will also want the best toys - and the constant power creep ensures that only a small number of available options is "viable" for this type of play.
Apparently games like DOTA or LOL managed to avoid this, as far as I know. A new hero brings a new play style, but not neccessarily one that is inherently superior. It may counter the current flavor of the month play style, but it can be countered in turn by other heroes, creating a varied gameplay for PvP.
The same could work for PvE - using different team builds, executing the perfect sequence of abilities using a mix of ships.
Sure, it doesn't help that STO - even without lockboxes, lobi or fleet ships is not balanced, but at least there you could argue that a few tweaks to BO abilities or new BO abilities and/or NPCs changes you could try to achieve that balance. But you can't balance "Everything is equal, but +2 turn rate and an extra console". It's just plain better.
My point in its simplest form is:
Doing End Game PvE Q's on any difficulty, should have a CHANCE to award players High Quality End Game gear. OUT RIGHT. (BTW random drops off of Trash Mobs don't count)
Otherwise whats the point of busting your Butt to finish one of the new "Elite" PvE Q's? Bragging Rights? Call me crazy but I'd prefer something tangible to go along with my Bragging Rights.
To Clarify:
I like the idea of the Upgrade System. The logistics of it are a bit absurd, imo, currently but I like that all my gear obtained over the last 4 years doesn't have to become Vendor Trash. Just wish the system was a bit more realistic that's all.
Also I don't even mind the games Time Gating, but Time Gating should NOT be an MMO's END GAME. Why it shouldn't, should not have to be explained. Hint: ITS BORING
Secondary Point:
End Game PvE should be legitimately rewarding on its own.
#RiskReward #SToDontGotNone
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]