why's that troublesome? people can do whatever they want with their money. if some want to spend 100 bucks and get all their stuff to mk 14 on day 1 good for them. i probably won't have a full set of mk 14 stuff a year from now. the game lets everyone do it however they want to do it. each to his own.
Spending their money isn't troublesome...it's the wanting, craving, and even needing instant gratification is the problem.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Is it possible to obtain Items through the Crafting and Upgrade system that cannot be gotten through the normal means of playing the game? if the answer is yes then its is 100% pay to win. If you can then it is Free2Play. I think everyone by now knows its determined by the player's perspective. If you think its P2W I'm sure you can make some very compelling arguments. If you think its Free 2 Play the same applies. Its all from a Gamers Perspective.
Here is what I think. The Option to Skip the CD timer with Dilithium should only be 10 hours instead of 20. That would mean by now Free2Play players would have at least 4 schools leveled all the way to level 15. The price to skip the CD timer would stay the same. That way ppl that wanted to skip it could still do so and Cryptic would still make the same amount of money. Because the timer is 20 hours long ppl that have paid have just to much of a "jump" on the other players. If the CD timer was reduced they wouldn't have such a "big" advantage over the F2P player.
I'm sure someone could come up with a better solution. I just think if the CD was a little shorter it would take the sting out of the crafting system to where it didn't feel like F2P players was getting shafted. Right now it feels like the ppl who spend lots of money on the game get the better game experience. The F2P method was suppose to make the company money buy adding stuff to the game that didn't make some players better than others but make cosmetic and gimic items its main revenue. Such as making unique BRIDGES for thier ships and selling them on the C-store. More Costume packs and So on. If Cryptic doesn't come up with a better monotizeing system for crafting and upgrading I'm afraid it may run alot of F2P players away. I know I would get tired of being killed everytime I done pvp. After awhile your gonna just throw your hands up and say F%$#-it.
Hey folks! I'm generally not the sort to start threads like this(or at all - I prefer to contribute to existing discussions). However, as someone who has recommended and talked several dozen people into checking out the game through various mediums over the years, I have recently come to the realization that my response to the infamous question of "pay2win?" is an undeniable "yes."
I'm not looking to start drama or flame wars, so I'll try to keep my general long-windedness succinct.
Okay Sze, how is this game "Pay to Win"?
Bluntly: The upgrade system, in its current form, allows players to straight-up buy progression.
The game has long-flirted with 'the line', but this is the first time where money spent directly influences the power of your ship/character. You could pay to speed up revamped-crafting advancement, but what you could craft was generally on par with what you could 'earn'.
Now, even the new 'endgame' Delta reputation only rewards items at MkXII, thus forcing players into this upgrade mechanic to 'achieve' the highest level of advancement. Those who "play" the game are throttled at a very slow, heavily-time-gated rate of advancement. Those who pay, are able to completely bypass that advancement rate.
..but this game is still "Free to Play"!
Correct. Pay to Win and Free to Play are separate arguments. This game does not have paywalls, but this upgrade system has set a new precedent where the difference between players who pay and don't pay is very glaring.
Is there a way to fix it?
Yes, I believe so. In my opinion, the most simple and effective solution is to remove the "pay dilithium to skip the wait" feature of the upgrading system.
The heart of the problem is allowing the arbitrary time-gated progression to be bypassed in the first place. There is no hard limit to how much refined dilithium a person can acquire with zen; there is a limit on how much refined dilithium a player can earn per day.
This was something the Reputation system actually did right.
Is this actually a problem? I just want my shinies, and I want them NOW!
Debatable; this is the reason I am creating this topic. I want to hear how the rest of the playerbase - and developers - feel about being able to buy advancement in this game.
The reality of the game right now is that you CAN pay to advance your character past other people who don't. Do you like that system? Do you not like that system? Are you indifferent/accepting? Do you think there is a better way that is both fair, profitable, and cost-effective?
Please, keep this thread civil and constructive.
I agree with you op. 100% For myself when the game went f2p and lock boxes were put in place I had no issue's with it I still supported them with my monthly gold sub.
When season 9.5 hit it was a smack to my face with that p2w button on the new crafting system so I bit my lip and turned the other cheek. When the upgrade system rolled out it was another smack to my face with that p2w button. D.R goe's live tomorrow and it will determine wether I keep my gold sub or down grade it to f2p tbh I am all out of cheeks to turn.
This game has changed since 2010 its gotten better for the most part but it seems now your time in this game means nothing as long as your willing to pay you can reach all the new shiney's without the wait unlike the past.
Dont get me wrong I love this game I play it everyday But after tomorrow and the upcomming weeks I'll decide wether Im still going to pay for this game on a monthly basis or go f2p and never spend a dime on it again. Either choice I will still play everyday as I do now.
Is it possible to obtain Items through the Crafting and Upgrade system that cannot be gotten through the normal means of playing the game? if the answer is yes then its is 100% pay to win. If you can then it is Free2Play. I think everyone by now knows its determined by the player's perspective. If you think its P2W I'm sure you can make some very compelling arguments. If you think its Free 2 Play the same applies. Its all from a Gamers Perspective.
Well, thats my $0.02 anyway.
Umm, F2P and P2W don't mean what you think they mean...
F2P = Free to play - playable without a purchase or subscription cost. STO is this.
P2W = Pay to win - STO isn't this. Sure, P2W between two equally skilled opponents will be a deciding factor, but until now with crafting, it was skill, not P2W which decided matches.
Even now it isn't P2W, as if a F2Per doesn't mind losing most matches they enter for a couple of months until they catch up, they will get there eventually.
They problem is we are frogs swimming in a nice warm pool.
go up against a delta expedition Lockbox ship that will either have at least one more console or one more boff ability than ANY ship in the entire game, flown by a person with the same skill/gear as you.
go up against a delta expedition Lockbox ship that will either have at least one more console or one more boff ability than ANY ship in the entire game, flown by a person with the same skill/gear as you.
Then tell me STO is not P2W.
Because it is, from now at least.
everyone already knows pvp's p2w. it's always been p2w, but pvp's a small percentage of the players in the game. for most people you don't need to pay and there's nothing to win even if you do.
everyone already knows pvp's p2w. it's always been p2w, but pvp's a small percentage of the players in the game. for most people you don't need to pay and there's nothing to win even if you do.
Thats actually what i was going to ask...
It is P2W but only for the PVP folks. But that only really matters if there are things in STO like rated arenas or whatever which i'm guessing there arent?
T6 ships must be bought not earned. T5 tokens cost around 70,000 Dil
And I will post the link in hear if you wish. Arc has directly said all free ships. Ships that are bought with fleet credit and mirror ships cant be upgraded to t5u
This means 2500 zen for a upgradable ship. Then 1000 zen for the token!
i don't know about you guys, but I remember the good old days of free to play. When companies would go to to that model and go belly up by years end.
Everyone was fustrated.
Everyone gave up.
Everyone went broke.
Can't we go back to that model?
At this point I'd be very happy to see that happen just so the dev's learn not to abuse players with that painful up-grade system ever again!
As someone who got into competitive multiplayer gaming via Unreal Tournament, arguing between pay to win and standard MMO mechanics is splitting a very fine hair.
You can either grind out there, or in here, but the biasing impact on the match is the same. The difference is merely how you choose to convert pre-match time into in-game stats (and to STO's credit that is still very much a choice).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Its not just pwe. Look at the state of mobile games. Things like clash of clans or dungeon keeper with their week long waits to upgrade one item one step. or Disney getting sued for game design that tricks kids into paying to avoid time gets without parental permission. Even hearth stone limits quests and that's a card game.
But in the end, I remember playing wow and evercrack in a guild raid with 40 people, spending six hours so three of the 40 could get one item once a week. The other 37 of us were there waiting in line basically.
I call our current system not ideal, but still better than "classic" mmo style. Still, it feels like no one making games plays them.
This game is NOT built to be fun! It's built to be a worse grind then a crapy 9-5 job as a way to force players to pay more money.
T6 ships must be bought not earned. T5 tokens cost around 70,000 Dil
And I will post the link in hear if you wish. Arc has directly said all free ships. Ships that are bought with fleet credit and mirror ships cant be upgraded to t5u
This means 2500 zen for a upgradable ship. Then 1000 zen for the token!
This worries me.
Oh FRAK! :mad: I had hoped it would be less. I don't have enough Zen to upgrade the ships I want to now! :mad:
Those GREEDY Dev's! And they know they will get away with it too!
Oh FRAK! :mad: I had hoped it would be less. I don't have enough Zen to upgrade the ships I want to now! :mad:
Those GREEDY Dev's! And they know they will get away with it too!
Question: how many ships are you planning on using tomorrow? I've got 4 main ships I want to eventually get up to T5-U but I only need zen for one or two of them right at this moment because I know I won't get around to the others until I've earned back enough dil for the other upgrades.
The 1000 zen price is more or less definite for SOME ships (not all, but we don't know which. Plan it being on the ones you want to upgrade just to be on the safe side. Source: livestream) but it shouldn't actually stop you from doing anything. Reasonably, it just delays the upgrade process and so long as you have enough to kep you occupied this isn't a "getting away with it" case.
Annoying? Yes, but the pitchfork isn't necessary (I saw you reaching for it. :P)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I would understand if PvP was a major part of this game and gave a decent reward.
But STO is primarily a PvE environment and once you make the base requirements for DPS on things like STFs, you are going to be ok.
Yes; you can post up the fact that your DPS parse on ICE is 20k or that you cleared TBK (come patch) in so many minutes, but there are no actual rewards here for being the best. Even the drops given to you for being a ranked DPS in the current STFs are pretty much vendor trash.
When PvP becomes more balanced and prevalent in the game, then you will have a competitive edge and you could say that people are paying to win. But at the moment, there is no winning in this game.
I feel this game isn't really Pay to Win, given that you still can't buy Reputation limit removals from the shop to remove the 400-600 Hourly Rep point per day limit, nor can you pay Dil or Zen to just insta-finish a Daily once per day (then start another Daily that you wait through) and 5 200 Rep point Hourly missions per day.
It really is just Pay to Upgrade Faster. It's also Pay to Obtain Faster, as far as going for C-Store ships over grinding for slightly better Fleet ships (which really doesn't matter if you're not a PvPer as things can still be done in even Mirror ships).
And even Fleet ships aren't truly free; given the Fleet Module cost. So with that point in mind, the only real free stuff are the equipment drops and the free ships. Everything else is hidden under some sort of cash currency (Keys to try for Lockbox ships and for Lobi to buy Lobi Ships; excluding Lobi event missions, Fleet Modules for Fleet ships, and C-Store ships). Again, while technically free, it'll take weeks to months of dedicated grinding to build up the necessary Zen for any of those (unless you have almost no life and 10+ alts to convert 8000 Dil into an average of 50 or so Zen per alt), while those who just straight up pay can obtain them much faster.
I would understand if PvP was a major part of this game and gave a decent reward.
But STO is primarily a PvE environment and once you make the base requirements for DPS on things like STFs, you are going to be ok.
Yeah. The lousy PvP minigames that get duct-taped to the side of all the PvE MMOs out there, really don't mean a whole lot. Never really understood why people get so worked up about them. /shrug
----
Personally, I don't consider anything to be "P2W" unless they're 1. only available for real $, and 2. utterly required to survive in a game (like those consumable "insurance" items in free-for-all PvP MMOs that keep people from stealing all your gear if they kill you)
And yeah - I've pretty much only seen stuff like that in masochistic open-world-pvp games.
@OP its actually pay-to-play for advanced content, pay-to-win for PVP in particular
If the answer to something like new Elite NW is "you can grind for 3 months then play it" then its effectively pay-to-play, because you cant play it anytime soon without paying. Not a question about impatience, its a question about why am I spinning wheels for 3 months waiting to play? Same is true for PVP, where the new threshold is T6 ship Mk XIII gear and (soon) lvl 60 with multiple traits. If you cant play the advanced content, you cant play, period.
Otherwise there is very little content that rewards more for 1st place or 2nd place, so nothing except PVP is technically pay-to-win, nothing to win in PVE land.
p2p is an optional on the side, when the day comes the dil gate gets worse for those who use the game system for free compared to those who just buy this stuff then you got a stronger case but for now, its rather weak sauce for the moment...
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
p2p is an optional on the side, when the day comes the dil gate gets worse for those who use the game system for free compared to those who just buy this stuff then you got a stronger case but for now, its rather weak sauce for the moment...
we will have to see what the grind entails
lvl 15 crafting is 3 mo and that is only by logging in every day, 6 mo if you are only able to login 3-4 times a week, a year if you login 1-2 times a week. Its not mandatory for anything yet but if it was, telling somebody to wait a year is the same as pay-to-play.
Comments
Spending their money isn't troublesome...it's the wanting, craving, and even needing instant gratification is the problem.
Here is what I think. The Option to Skip the CD timer with Dilithium should only be 10 hours instead of 20. That would mean by now Free2Play players would have at least 4 schools leveled all the way to level 15. The price to skip the CD timer would stay the same. That way ppl that wanted to skip it could still do so and Cryptic would still make the same amount of money. Because the timer is 20 hours long ppl that have paid have just to much of a "jump" on the other players. If the CD timer was reduced they wouldn't have such a "big" advantage over the F2P player.
I'm sure someone could come up with a better solution. I just think if the CD was a little shorter it would take the sting out of the crafting system to where it didn't feel like F2P players was getting shafted. Right now it feels like the ppl who spend lots of money on the game get the better game experience. The F2P method was suppose to make the company money buy adding stuff to the game that didn't make some players better than others but make cosmetic and gimic items its main revenue. Such as making unique BRIDGES for thier ships and selling them on the C-store. More Costume packs and So on. If Cryptic doesn't come up with a better monotizeing system for crafting and upgrading I'm afraid it may run alot of F2P players away. I know I would get tired of being killed everytime I done pvp. After awhile your gonna just throw your hands up and say F%$#-it.
Well, thats my $0.02 anyway.
I agree with you op. 100% For myself when the game went f2p and lock boxes were put in place I had no issue's with it I still supported them with my monthly gold sub.
When season 9.5 hit it was a smack to my face with that p2w button on the new crafting system so I bit my lip and turned the other cheek. When the upgrade system rolled out it was another smack to my face with that p2w button. D.R goe's live tomorrow and it will determine wether I keep my gold sub or down grade it to f2p tbh I am all out of cheeks to turn.
This game has changed since 2010 its gotten better for the most part but it seems now your time in this game means nothing as long as your willing to pay you can reach all the new shiney's without the wait unlike the past.
Dont get me wrong I love this game I play it everyday But after tomorrow and the upcomming weeks I'll decide wether Im still going to pay for this game on a monthly basis or go f2p and never spend a dime on it again. Either choice I will still play everyday as I do now.
Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
That is not the case in this game. People need to get it right.
Umm, F2P and P2W don't mean what you think they mean...
F2P = Free to play - playable without a purchase or subscription cost. STO is this.
P2W = Pay to win - STO isn't this. Sure, P2W between two equally skilled opponents will be a deciding factor, but until now with crafting, it was skill, not P2W which decided matches.
Even now it isn't P2W, as if a F2Per doesn't mind losing most matches they enter for a couple of months until they catch up, they will get there eventually.
They problem is we are frogs swimming in a nice warm pool.
Then tell me STO is not P2W.
Because it is, from now at least.
...#LLAP...
Thats actually what i was going to ask...
It is P2W but only for the PVP folks. But that only really matters if there are things in STO like rated arenas or whatever which i'm guessing there arent?
Come tomorrow I am hitting DR full speed in the Retro-Phaser Connie, why, because its fun!
I slaute you!
Playing for fun is what it's all about.
448 words long (or 2604 characters)
Succinct-ness... FAILED
Not really. They go hand in hand. When STO went F2P everyone knew P2W would show up very fast. And it did.
T6 ships must be bought not earned. T5 tokens cost around 70,000 Dil
And I will post the link in hear if you wish. Arc has directly said all free ships. Ships that are bought with fleet credit and mirror ships cant be upgraded to t5u
This means 2500 zen for a upgradable ship. Then 1000 zen for the token!
This worries me.
At this point I'd be very happy to see that happen just so the dev's learn not to abuse players with that painful up-grade system ever again!
[/SIGPIC]
You can either grind out there, or in here, but the biasing impact on the match is the same. The difference is merely how you choose to convert pre-match time into in-game stats (and to STO's credit that is still very much a choice).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
This game is NOT built to be fun! It's built to be a worse grind then a crapy 9-5 job as a way to force players to pay more money.
[/SIGPIC]
Oh FRAK! :mad: I had hoped it would be less. I don't have enough Zen to upgrade the ships I want to now! :mad:
Those GREEDY Dev's! And they know they will get away with it too!
[/SIGPIC]
Question: how many ships are you planning on using tomorrow? I've got 4 main ships I want to eventually get up to T5-U but I only need zen for one or two of them right at this moment because I know I won't get around to the others until I've earned back enough dil for the other upgrades.
The 1000 zen price is more or less definite for SOME ships (not all, but we don't know which. Plan it being on the ones you want to upgrade just to be on the safe side. Source: livestream) but it shouldn't actually stop you from doing anything. Reasonably, it just delays the upgrade process and so long as you have enough to kep you occupied this isn't a "getting away with it" case.
Annoying? Yes, but the pitchfork isn't necessary (I saw you reaching for it. :P)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Since the day I realized that conundrum, I have been pointing out that exact issue.
Star Trek: Online does not have an actual endgame solution.
Do you know the irony? Not many people realize the conundrum.
*Gives xaraman three bacon cheezburgers*
But STO is primarily a PvE environment and once you make the base requirements for DPS on things like STFs, you are going to be ok.
Yes; you can post up the fact that your DPS parse on ICE is 20k or that you cleared TBK (come patch) in so many minutes, but there are no actual rewards here for being the best. Even the drops given to you for being a ranked DPS in the current STFs are pretty much vendor trash.
When PvP becomes more balanced and prevalent in the game, then you will have a competitive edge and you could say that people are paying to win. But at the moment, there is no winning in this game.
Cheers
nom nom nom nom
It really is just Pay to Upgrade Faster. It's also Pay to Obtain Faster, as far as going for C-Store ships over grinding for slightly better Fleet ships (which really doesn't matter if you're not a PvPer as things can still be done in even Mirror ships).
And even Fleet ships aren't truly free; given the Fleet Module cost. So with that point in mind, the only real free stuff are the equipment drops and the free ships. Everything else is hidden under some sort of cash currency (Keys to try for Lockbox ships and for Lobi to buy Lobi Ships; excluding Lobi event missions, Fleet Modules for Fleet ships, and C-Store ships). Again, while technically free, it'll take weeks to months of dedicated grinding to build up the necessary Zen for any of those (unless you have almost no life and 10+ alts to convert 8000 Dil into an average of 50 or so Zen per alt), while those who just straight up pay can obtain them much faster.
Yeah. The lousy PvP minigames that get duct-taped to the side of all the PvE MMOs out there, really don't mean a whole lot. Never really understood why people get so worked up about them. /shrug
----
Personally, I don't consider anything to be "P2W" unless they're 1. only available for real $, and 2. utterly required to survive in a game (like those consumable "insurance" items in free-for-all PvP MMOs that keep people from stealing all your gear if they kill you)
And yeah - I've pretty much only seen stuff like that in masochistic open-world-pvp games.
If the answer to something like new Elite NW is "you can grind for 3 months then play it" then its effectively pay-to-play, because you cant play it anytime soon without paying. Not a question about impatience, its a question about why am I spinning wheels for 3 months waiting to play? Same is true for PVP, where the new threshold is T6 ship Mk XIII gear and (soon) lvl 60 with multiple traits. If you cant play the advanced content, you cant play, period.
Otherwise there is very little content that rewards more for 1st place or 2nd place, so nothing except PVP is technically pay-to-win, nothing to win in PVE land.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
we will have to see what the grind entails
lvl 15 crafting is 3 mo and that is only by logging in every day, 6 mo if you are only able to login 3-4 times a week, a year if you login 1-2 times a week. Its not mandatory for anything yet but if it was, telling somebody to wait a year is the same as pay-to-play.
this is true... iv earned everything I have. so far iv only put 20 bucks on here and that was before I realized I could get zen with diithium..