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Gotham: "Pilot" (spoilers)

jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
edited October 2014 in Ten Forward
What did you think?

I was pleasantly surprised. Good cast, great set design, and a reasonably interesting story to get things started. Not bad for a completely unsustainable premise.

About that: where the hell is this show going to go in the future? What's it about? If it's about young Jim Gordon, isn't it inherently limited? He can't be overly successful on the show; otherwise, who needs Batman? And will it really be that entertaining to watch him fail repeatedly?

If it's about young Bruce Wayne, shouldn't we be seeing him a lot more? And isn't it just about the least interesting Batman story you can tell (especially since we've seen several screen versions of his origin already)?
You're right. The work here is very important.
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Post edited by jeffel82 on

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  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    What did you think?

    I was pleasantly surprised. Good cast, great set design, and a reasonably interesting story to get things started. Not bad for a completely unsustainable premise.

    About that: where the hell is this show going to go in the future? What's it about? If it's about young Jim Gordon, isn't it inherently limited? He can't be overly successful on the show; otherwise, who needs Batman? And will it really be that entertaining to watch him fail repeatedly?

    If it's about young Bruce Wayne, shouldn't we be seeing him a lot more? And isn't it just about the least interesting Batman story you can tell (especially since we've seen several screen versions of his origin already)?

    Skipped it entirely.

    No Batman, no point.

    That show is going to "fail", by which I mean in Fox's world, it's gonna last ten seasons, tear apart all the known lore of the Batman franchise and continue to hammer itself down our throats whether we want to or not.
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  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited September 2014
    I thought it was pretty good. The acting was great. I was surprised at the level of violence shown, but I suppose it got across just how bad the city is supposed to be. I was also surprised at the number of iconic villains introduced in one episode. There were at least 5, not counting the new villain, Fish Mooney, the edge-walker Bullock, nor the murderer of the Waynes (which I suspect will eventually prove to be Joe Chill, making a 6th iconic villain).

    In answer to your OP question, I think Fish Mooney was created precisely to have someone Gordon can take down without the Bat's help. I suspect you're going to see Gordon actually make a difference, which will move him from detective to lieutenant, and possibly cause Bullock to actually lose some of his jaded nature. Gordon will likely find the ways to clean up a segment of the GCPD, not the full thing. Yes, he'll need the Batman to fully succeed, but he'll lay the groundwork. I suspect they'll show that the vacuum caused by Fish Mooney's takedown is the point where Penguin comes to power, possibly where Gordon begins to lose the war again.

    I don't think this will be a show without Bruce. I'm guessing you'll see him taking risks, going out at night, studying the underworld, living on the edge (for which this episode had a literal metaphor) as he begins to formulate Batman. No doubt they'll show a bond forged between him and Gordon, with Gordon being a mentor second only to Alfred.

    Speaking of Alfred, Sean Pertwee seems to be a strong echo of his famous father. I really look forward to his take on Alfred. He already seems a bit crustier than former actors in the role.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,971 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    I'll be surprised if it lasts more than one season.
    Almost Human was a pretty good show, and they canned it after one season.
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  • chrisedallen89chrisedallen89 Member Posts: 17,293 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I think having Gordon succeed too much will cause problems..
  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I really liked it. The only real episode flaw to me was the Bullock "we killed an innocent man, we'll go to jail" line. The guy ran then shot at a cop and was about to stab and kill one. I'm sure they would have been fine.

    I think the show has a lot of potential and would be really interesting 4-5 down the line as Bruce grows. I think that's what it has going for it. It can't sit still as Bruce will grow fast it will need to literally occur in real time.

    Villains:
    Cat Woman
    Riddler
    Poison Ivy
    Penguin
    Joker
    Falcone

    any others?
  • tymerstotymersto Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The GF & I watched it last night. I'll agree on the acting and the feeling of what Gotham City is like.

    About the only real complaint is the pacing of last night's ep was maybe a little too fast. Don't get me wrong here. The ep laid down all the needed overall and shorter term plot threads, but it just seemed to throw maybe a little too much last night.

    This could be a interesting ride.

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  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited September 2014
    kozar2 wrote: »
    I really liked it. The only real episode flaw to me was the Bullock "we killed an innocent man, we'll go to jail" line. The guy ran then shot at a cop and was about to stab and kill one. I'm sure they would have been fine.

    I think the show has a lot of potential and would be really interesting 4-5 down the line as Bruce grows. I think that's what it has going for it. It can't sit still as Bruce will grow fast it will need to literally occur in real time.

    Villains:
    Cat Woman
    Riddler
    Poison Ivy
    Penguin
    Joker
    Falcone

    any others?

    No Joker. If you're referring to the comedian in Fish's club, that theory, which apparently many held, was shot down. They're holding back the Joker lest he wear thin too quickly.

    As I mentioned before, there's the crook who iced the Waynes. In the comics (and Batman Begins) it was Joe Chill.

    Rumor has it that Sal Maroni, the mobster who disfigured Harvey Dent will be in one of the episodes soon. Whether that means Dent will be around, I don't know.

    Why did they rename Pamela Isley as "Ivy Pepper"? Most Batman fans know the private names of Batman's enemies. There was no need to change her name to practically scream out who she is.

    Bullock's line, I agree, was a mistake, at least since Gordon was involved. Had Bullock been alone, then I could see him being worried that an investigation, especially by the media, might uncover too much of his compromised past.
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Also: giving the Joker a proper origin is a terrible idea. He works much better as a force-of-nature character with no known history.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • kozar2kozar2 Member Posts: 602 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    No Joker. If you're referring to the comedian in Fish's club, that theory, which apparently many held, was shot down. They're holding back the Joker lest he wear thin too quickly.

    I don't know. The writers of Lost came out quickly in Season 1 to say the idea wasn't Purgatory and...
  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited September 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    Also: giving the Joker a proper origin is a terrible idea. He works much better as a force-of-nature character with no known history.

    well, I'll grant you that, but there is the comic The Killing Joke which even Heath Ledger referenced when preparing his version.
  • cptjhuntercptjhunter Member Posts: 2,288 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Is it just me, or does Selena Kyle look like a young Michelle Pfeiffer clone?
    Not that its a bad thing at all.
    So far it seems dark, and gritty enough to grab my attention.Hopefully it stays that way.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Take away the Batman stuff and ask the show to stand on its own, and you get a pretty-standard cop show (decently done, but still standard), but one where you know a number of things can't or must happen because of future history, limiting options. If you took out the easter eggs, is it something you'd watch on its own? To me, answer is no.
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    well, I'll grant you that, but there is the comic The Killing Joke which even Heath Ledger referenced when preparing his version.

    True, but even within "The Killing Joke," Joker himself admits he doesn't always "remember" his origin the same way, and it may be completely false.

    Similarly, Ledger's Joker provides a couple of different versions of his origin story, which I think is fine. Giving the character a proper origin is the first step toward making him relatable, which...no.
    Take away the Batman stuff and ask the show to stand on its own, and you get a pretty-standard cop show (decently done, but still standard), but one where you know a number of things can't or must happen because of future history, limiting options. If you took out the easter eggs, is it something you'd watch on its own? To me, answer is no.

    I hear you. It reminds me of Smallville (which I hated), which somehow managed to wring 10 years out of its premise until by the end they had a full Justice League team, and yet they still refused to call Clark "Superman." Because that would be silly, I guess.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'll be surprised if it lasts more than one season.
    Almost Human was a pretty good show, and they canned it after one season.

    Ya, that was sad but I see a bit more life in Gotham than just a single season- they've got way more money and talent tied into it. Unfortunately I wasn't following why they had to make it so modern, and why the Wayne's were executed. Seems a bit risky to rewrite the story from the get-go with a hit made to look like robbery, with Selina witnessing everything.

    I'll keep watching but I'm a little miffed they had to start a promising show by rewriting known facts about Batman just to create a new series featuring Gordon.
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,101 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Skipped it entirely.

    No Batman, no point.

    That show is going to "fail", by which I mean in Fox's world, it's gonna last ten seasons, tear apart all the known lore of the Batman franchise and continue to hammer itself down our throats whether we want to or not.
    ^^^
    This. I'm an old fan of superhero comics, but stuff like 'Gotham' I just don't get. I don't want/need to see the 'early days' of the supporting characters of a superhero. I cringe to think that they'll have some whiney 'Bruce Wayne' child character occasionally show up to show Batman's childhood. Personally, I think all these 'let's get teen versions of all the established older heroes we can to get that young/angsty 18-24 demographic involved.

    If you're going to do Batman, DO Batman. I don't need yet another 'cop show with a twist, myself. YMMV.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    The shows 'kinda 'meah'. If it was a prequel to Bvs.S or in the same universe as Arrow / Flash then maybe I'd have a reason to continue watching.

    On a related note, will the Titians show be related to any of the others, or yet another separate universe?
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  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited September 2014
    Take away the Batman stuff and ask the show to stand on its own, and you get a pretty-standard cop show (decently done, but still standard), but one where you know a number of things can't or must happen because of future history, limiting options. If you took out the easter eggs, is it something you'd watch on its own? To me, answer is no.

    I can certainly understand your point, and respect the choice made. In small counterpoint, I'd note that I went into watching DC's other show, Arrow, with certain expectations regarding that mythos. (SPOILERS, for those who've not seen it) One, based on what I knew of the Green Arrow, I expected trick shots, or at worst, targetted wounding. I was not expecting a first season of vigilante murders. It nearly turned me off, since I'd always assumed GA was above that, both in skill and morals. Likewise, I was pretty upset when Laurel didn't turn out to be the Black Canary. There's been two or three BC's all named "Laurel". I first learned to live with it, then learned to love it. GA has realized the error of his ways and is taking the higher moral ground, making him more of a 3D character over the course of the show. Sara is still the BC, but she's a good character (and there's always a chance the title will be passed.) Basically, its much different than I initially expected, but I can accept it as one of many retellings, each with their own unique spin.

    Similarly, the British show Merlyn was very different than I expected, with changes like Lance dying, Mordred not a son of Arthur, and Guinevere and Merlyn both commoners. But it was a fun show and I'm glad I watched.

    I respect the "no Batman, no show" viewpoint in regard to Gotham, but I'd hate to see this or any other show cancelled not because of its own merits or lack thereof, but because people denied it a chance to stand on its own based on pre-expectations.
  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited September 2014

    I respect the "no Batman, no show" viewpoint in regard to Gotham, but I'd hate to see this or any other show cancelled not because of its own merits or lack thereof, but because people denied it a chance to stand on its own based on pre-expectations.

    You forget, though, this is Fox. Fox's idea of success is if the show is utterly terrible and lacks any sort of merit or talent. If it got cancelled, then we would know the show was actually good, despite our preconceptions. If it gets multiple seasons, we know we were right and the show is bad.

    Fox, man. Where logic and sense have no meaning. :rolleyes:
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  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    imo i liked it and will continue to watch it
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    My only problem with the show is the age of James Gordon. He is supposed to be older than Harvey Bullock, but they seemed to have reversed the ages of the two characters. If young Bruce Wayne is about 10 in the show and Batman is around 30, then James Gordon should be about 40 not 25.
  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,758 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    love the visual fx over the new york backdrops, set designs, and cinematics......... it's also not just any cop show, it's a cop show in a sickly crime-run city
  • jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    hawku001x wrote: »
    love the visual fx over the new york backdrops, set designs, and cinematics......... it's also not just any cop show, it's a cop show in a sickly crime-run city

    I have to admit, more than anything, the set design is outstanding.

    I'm still not 100% sold on the show, but I'm also still watching.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited October 2014
    starkaos wrote: »
    My only problem with the show is the age of James Gordon. He is supposed to be older than Harvey Bullock, but they seemed to have reversed the ages of the two characters. If young Bruce Wayne is about 10 in the show and Batman is around 30, then James Gordon should be about 40 not 25.

    Actor Ben McKenzie (James Gordon) was born September 1978 making him 36 years old, not 25, and reasonably close to your suggested 40. He's got what we all want: a youthful look. :)
  • captclazoruscaptclazorus Member Posts: 377 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Well, the truth is the show is somewhat about how Bruce Wayne became inspired to be Batman, but the show really isn't about Batman. It's about how his setting, the city of Gotham, culminated into what it was when he had to confront the enemies of his. I see, because Gordon is destined to be an overall failure, it as Gordon being more of a witness to the events of the time. After all, with the recent child snatchers and balloon man, there are story plots that Gordon does succeed at and finish. Obviously, Falcone isn't likely to survive past this period, and after all, he seems to be the predominant villain.
    But overall, I am loving the show.
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  • steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited October 2014
    I see, because Gordon is destined to be an overall failure, it as Gordon being more of a witness to the events of the time.

    Not every story has a happy ending, and not every hero stands up early against evil, for various reasons. Hamlet comes to mind, and in such comparison as you make, Gordon would be the Horatio of Gotham.
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