i dunno why would cryptic even want to keep the dil prices high though. the higher the price, the larger the dil payoff for one zen, the less zen they sell.
if someone wants 1 million dil and exchange is at 150 dil, he'll need to sell 6667 zen on exchange. if exchange is at 200 dil, he only needs to sell 5000 zen, so cryptic loses that 1667 zen he could buy from them.
that's over $160 loss for cryptic, and that's just from one person. multiply that by hundreds of people who buy zen to sell on exchange, and you see losses in hundreds of thousands of dollars.
sigh....
because they aren't concerned with the people selling the zen.... its the people trying to BUY it.
Everytime the price inexplictly goes up its costs more dilith to buy. So if you had 200K dilith you suddenly need 300K for the same pay out. Since you can only get 8K dilith a day there is a constant. If you want that zen now your choice is to grind grind grind.... Or BUY ZEN FROM THE CSTORE!!!!
The entire point is to keep people from getting free zen and force them to have to buy it.
If you follow the market for any length of time you will see that the amount of zen for sale is more or less the same. all that happens is that bulk amounts just move from one price to a higher one.
On the iten exchange, if you want to sell say a crappy engine and the average price is say 200K, do you post yours for 200K, 199k or 275K? That's what happens on the dilith exchange. If the average price is say 150 there will be an inexplicable amount posted at 155. The intent is simply to move the price higher, not to actually sell it
Facts aside, answer me this. Why should we have to grind again, and again, and again, and again or pay again, and again, and again, and again, to get to feeling content with our character(s) being exactly where they were?
I understand what you are complaining about, far better than you do, I think. When I say you want the Mk XIV gear on Oct. 14th, I am referring to the exact mentality you are expressing here.
You seem to incorrectly perceive that if your character is at the "top" level of performance right now that it is somehow a "nerf" to you if a new level of power opens up and you don't have instant free access to it. The opportunity to improve your character should not be seen as a slight against the work you've already - none of the gear you currently have (that you are happy with, evidently) is going away - you are merely being given the chance to improve upon it, if you wish.
Now, you will already, no doubt, be formulating a response along the lines of saying "But we NEED the new gear to compete in the new content, so we ARE being nerfed, and it's unfair". First, I have to say, from playing the content on Tribble, you really DON'T need the new Mk XIV gear to complete the storyline missions, nor to do the normal and Advanced Queued content. You DO need to be "well geared" by today's standards for the Advanced Queues, but you absolutely don't HAVE to have the new stuff. If you are content with what you have now, you should have no reason to be discontent that there are options for more out there. I get that people might feel that way, but to me it's exactly as irrational as a person feeling upset because a new iPhone came out, or whatever. If your current phone has served you well, there's no reason to upgrade to the newer model - the fact that you might WANT to upgrade doesn't mean that you should, nor does it mean that you should expect that upgrade to be free (or even cheap).
This is important to understand, because it helps shine a light on what people mean when they mean they are being "Forced" to grind. It's not that people are being locked out of content, it's that people perceive being "not the best" as being the same as "useless" - I think of this as the Ricky Bobby fallacy ("If you ain't first, you're last!"). In practice, this is the kind of thinking that causes people to believe that finishing ISE (as it is now) with "only" 5 minutes left on the timer is some kind of shameful experience. The point of the game should be to play the game, not to play the game as fast as possible.
This, of course, brings us to your question of "why should we be forced to grind?" The short answer is - you aren't. Cryptic isn't forcing you to grind - YOU are forcing you to grind, because you are choosing to value having the "new hotness" over "having fun playing". Indeed, it often seems like for some people it is impossible to separate those two concepts, which I find to be an irrational way of perceiving the world.
A more useful answer to your question, though, might be to put it like this - the reason you are "forced" to grind is that "grinding" IS the endgame play for STO (and most MMOs, in fact). The intention is that Lvl 60 players will spend most of their time playing repeatable queue content to gather resources to improve their gear so that they can improve their performance in repeatable content so that they can get better gear so that... and so on. You might not like that end game - that's fine. The thing you have to realize is that if you find the experience of playing repeatable content to earn better gear be unsatisfying, it seems unlikely that having that same gear at a lower cost/shorter time investment will suddenly make that "grindy" content more satisfying, nor will it "unlock" non-grinding content that you couldn't do with your current setup, because there really isn't any such thing.
The same goes for the complaints about how much time/effort it takes to level crafting, or the time/effort it takes to get the reputations finished, etc. Those "grinds" ARE the endgame of STO, by and large. If you find that to be unsatisfying, that's fine, but again, I have to wonder, what do you think SHOULD be the endgame experience? Right now you are essentially complaining that it costs too much money to be "done" with the game as fast as possible, and that you don't want to be "forced" to play repeatable content for several months to earn the resources without paying real money. Assuming you had your way, and the costs for the upgrades were so low as to be essentially non-existent, what do you envision yourself doing in the game for those same two or three months? What content will you be playing, if it's not the repeatable content you so loathe being forced to do?
To your other post about how people aren't doing the math on the total cost of the system - the numbers in the post you quoted represent about 1 month of dilithium for one character - and are significantly less than what getting high-end (fleet or reputation) Mk XII gear costs to begin with, so, yes, I have done the math. The costs only look high to people who expect to get everything to Mk XIV on Oct. 14th ...
The costs don't just look high to people who expect to upgrade everything to Mk XIV on October 14. I simply disagree with you on the relative value of mark and rarity vs. dilithium.
A purple Mk XII space weapon from the reputation store requires 22500 dilithium. To upgrade that same weapon to Mk XIV requires 16125 dilithium.
(22500 + 16125) / 22500 = 1.7167
If we take the dilithium costs to represent roughly the values Cryptic places on gear, then they seem think a Mk XIV weapon is worth 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. You seem to generally agree with their opinion; in fact, since you've expressed several times that the current prices are "a deal", perhaps you believe a Mk XIV weapon is worth more than 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. That's where you and I disagree: I would say that a Mk XIV weapon is worth around 1.1667 times a Mk XII weapon.
because they aren't concerned with the people selling the zen.... its the people trying to BUY it.
1 zen bought for dilithium is worth the same to cryptic as 1 zen bought for c-store content. That's the function of the dilithium exchange, it differs the paid price of content to other people who are willing to take some other resource in exchange. I absolutely fail to see what it benefits cryptic to create an artificial marketplace (especially if all they're supposedly interested in is a fixed rate of some kind or another. They could have just FIXED THE EXCHANGE RATE if that were indeed the case) and perpetuate the disception as far as ceaselessly manipulating the rate according to reasonable changes in supply and demand.
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The costs don't just look high to people who expect to upgrade everything to Mk XIV on October 14. I simply disagree with you on the relative value of mark and rarity vs. dilithium.
A purple Mk XII space weapon from the reputation store requires 22500 dilithium. To upgrade that same weapon to Mk XIV requires 16125 dilithium.
(22500 + 16125) / 22500 = 1.7167
If we take the dilithium costs to represent roughly the values Cryptic places on gear, then they seem think a Mk XIV weapon is worth 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. You seem to generally agree with their opinion; in fact, since you've expressed several times that the current prices are "a deal", perhaps you believe a Mk XIV weapon is worth more than 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. That's where you and I disagree: I would say that a Mk XIV weapon is worth around 1.1667 times a Mk XII weapon.
Yes, I straight up disagree with your assessment. I think people would absolutely be willing to pay 40,000 dilithium straight up for a Mk XIV Very Rare quality weapon, and as a result I think that's a fair price. If you disagree, don't pay it, obviously. Or pay it over time, or whatever. Unless your goal is to jump into the Lvl 60 Elite Queues ASAP, there seems little actual NEED for everything to be upgraded. Make it a long term goal and play towards that.
Again - getting this gear IS the end game. If you don't want to play that game, that's fine, but the argument against the costs always comes down to either a) I don't want to pay Zen to get the dilithium to rush the system or b) I don't want to play the repeatable content to get the resources over time, both of which seem to me to be requests to, in essence, skip directly to the "end" of the game where you have everything you want, and bypass the part where you have fun earning it.
Yes, I straight up disagree with your assessment. I think people would absolutely be willing to pay 40,000 dilithium straight up for a Mk XIV Very Rare quality weapon, and as a result I think that's a fair price. If you disagree, don't pay it, obviously. Or pay it over time, or whatever. Unless your goal is to jump into the Lvl 60 Elite Queues ASAP, there seems little actual NEED for everything to be upgraded. Make it a long term goal and play towards that.
Again - getting this gear IS the end game. If you don't want to play that game, that's fine, but the argument against the costs always comes down to either a) I don't want to pay Zen to get the dilithium to rush the system or b) I don't want to play the repeatable content to get the resources over time, both of which seem to me to be requests to, in essence, skip directly to the "end" of the game where you have everything you want, and bypass the part where you have fun earning it.
In my case, it's neither (a) nor (b). I plan to wait at least a month before upgrading anything. That would be the case even if upgrades were free, because that's how long I think it will take them to fix whatever bugs they are going to fix. More likely, I will wait 3 to 6 months, because I want to see how the Exchange settles and weigh my options before buying. I probably have enough dilithium right now to upgrade everything on one character, but I will wait anyway. My other characters are either not yet level 50 or level-50 characters with Mk VIII gear, so that tells you how much of a rush I'm in to upgrade their equipment. If it takes years to grind for all the resources needed to fully equip all my characters, then so be it. I place less value on Mk XIV equipment than you do simply because I do; it has nothing to do with how long I'm willing to wait or how much I'm willing to grind.
Sellers always want more for their goods, and buyers always want to pay less. That's normal. Some sellers charge more than others, and some buyers are willing to pay more than others. That's normal too. There is natural variation among buyers and sellers. I think it's important for players to say how much they would pay rather than just accept Cryptic's price or not, because there is a fundamental asymmetry in how we buy things from Cryptic.
In most markets, the seller sets a price, and the buyer has only two choices---buy or don't buy. The Exchange, C-Store, Lobi store, reputation store, fleet stores, crafting system, and upgrade system all work this way. Most people don't question this, because that's how most markets work in real life too. But there are alternative markets in which both buyers and sellers can set prices. Take the dilithium exchange for example. Both buyers and sellers put up offers indicating the prices at which they are willing to buy and sell, respectively. These prices act as signals between buyers and sellers. Now, consider the market in which Cryptic is seller and the players are buyers. The signals in this market carry very little information. Players can send only binary signals: buy or don't buy. Theoretically, the prices set by Cryptic can take a range of values, but in practice, Cryptic sets only one price. Sometimes, they offer a discount, and rarely, they make long-term price changes. But for extended periods of time, the price set by Cryptic carries only one point of information. It is actually hard for Cryptic to determine the price which maximizes profit in this market. All they can see is that some people are buying and others not. They don't know how many would buy at higher prices and how many would buy at lower. The mechanisms of the market do not allow a player to say "I would buy this item if Cryptic only lowered the price by this much." The only way for a player to say this is to post on the forums. Of course, it's always in the interest of a buyer to give a lower price than the maximum he or she would pay. But there are other buyers like mrtshead who offer to pay more. This gives Cryptic a range of values to work with.
Yes, I straight up disagree with your assessment. I think people would absolutely be willing to pay 40,000 dilithium straight up for a Mk XIV Very Rare quality weapon, and as a result I think that's a fair price. If you disagree, don't pay it, obviously. Or pay it over time, or whatever. Unless your goal is to jump into the Lvl 60 Elite Queues ASAP, there seems little actual NEED for everything to be upgraded. Make it a long term goal and play towards that.
Speak for yourself and dont asume what ppl think. The fact is you are wrong. Lots of ppl are thinking to quit, if they havent done so allready when Crafting update came. Fleets and friends'lists are allmost empty. Most ppl wont pay this prices becouse thats not an UPGRADE, thats PAYING AGAIN even more then the original costs for your items. The point is the price does not justify the increased in efectivness. Does that item doubled its efectivness? No, and I am not saying it should, it would be OP. What I am saying is the upgrade prices should reflect item's increased efectivness. This doesnt have anything to do with ppl wanting to be easy, or fast or whatever you say. Its becouse the upgrade system has no logic or common sense what so ever. And you cant justify those insane prices with 2-4% chances to increase in rarity...
I've posted this in from a thread in general discussion because this person posted two exactly identical posts, so I thought I'd post in my maths here to help this thread.This is an edited version of what I responded to the person I quoted who made the same starting post in this thread, hopefully that makes sense. I just didn't want people to think the post was out of place, I just didn't want to write the entire thing again and so long as the context is still here it should be fine.
So firstly we'll talk what the problem is so we're both clear:
Going up the grades from XII to XIII to XIV isn't all that bad, as many people have already said. Should it cost dilithium when your purely adding tech points and not actually upgrading from one mark to the next? Of course not, but that's something Cryptic to change easily enough.
Now the quality upgrades are the clinching point, actually going up from one quality to another is very chancy especially for Epic quality, with some people using up obscene amounts of dilithium to upgrade one item.
Now before anyone says you don't need to go to gold quality I'd like to point out a few things. A gold quality item gets a fixed modifier. This modifier is very powerful, such as the one for engines which doubles the driver coil or the shields modifier that doubles the capacity. Those are insanely powerful.
Also, along with that modifier the stats on the item should improve again, which makes gold quality simply more than a simple quality upgrade, and in fact is probably worth 2 quality upgrades in it's own right, maybe a bit more. So for example, a MACO shield with about 460 hit points (depending on ps gen skill) go up to 920 hit points without factoring in mark and quality bonuses to the capacity base as you go along.
So we can't argue that epic quality makes a big different to the capability of the item in question, now to some maths; I have a cruiser and a ground toon, the cruiser has 22 items on it that can be upgraded, the ground gear is 4 items though we don't know what's going to happen with kits yet.
26 items therefore need upgrading. In rounded numbers, 70,200 tech points needed for me to upgrade each console, from ultra-rare which most of them are from Mk XII. 70,200 x 10 = 702,000 tech points / 12800 (superior tech) = 55 tech upgrades as we can't use half an upgrade, so rounded up. 55 tech x 1075 dilithium = 59,125 dilithium for me to upgrade those consoles to Mk XIV.
12 weapons and core items (core = shields, engines, deflector and core) next, again they're fleet quality. 216,000 combined tech points to go from Mk XII to Mk XIV again, so 216,000 x 12 items = 2,592,000 tech points which / 12,800 (superior tech) = 203 techs, rounded as again can't use half a tech. 203 superior techs x 1075 dilithium = 218,225 dilithium, just for mark upgrades.
Finally my ground gear, 4 items but like I said we don't know about the kits yet. 3 VR items one UR. 128,050 tech point from Mark XII to XIV x 3 items = 384,150 tech points, which again divided by 12,800 superior techs = 31 techs needed x 1075 dilithium = 33325 + my UR item I did separately for 12900 = 46,225 dilithium.
Therefore, 46,225 + 218,225 + 59,125 = 323,575 dilithium just to go from Mark XII to XIV on all those items combined and having used 289 superior tech upgrades. Now that's assuming you don't get lucky doing upgrades, which is more likely anyway.
I'll come back to gold quality in a minute. I want to focus on some other points right now. For example acquiring superior tech upgrades. You made the idiotic claim that you did 2 STF's and got a tech in each, yet you fail to consider the other people in your groups, I take it they didn't get any? Because from my fleets testing we have run no end of STF's since Cryptic dumped this on Holodeck and we have only gained 4 techs out of a few dozen missions collectively.
So we could look at the exchange, but last look ground tech upgrades were going for 820,000 ec each and some space weapon ones are 169,000. Cannons are 720,000 Shield 875,000, engineering 700,000, 680,000 for science tech, torp tech 1,750,000, all those of those are superior. Just for the sakes of easiness if we take an average of the prices, and ignore beams and torps as they're clearly outliers, the average comes out at 759,000 energy credits.
So 289 superior techs x 759,000 average = 219,351,000 energy credits, and as that's an average that will inevitably be a conservative figure.
Now it obviously works out better to form the materials but now we hit the next snag, which is the latest dilithium nerf. This is the development that the STF's are being made harder and come with less rewards, so it makes it harder for people to get the dilithium they need (480 dilithium per old level Elite, whereas new level Elite has the 960). So this means more effort less reward for advanced level and same reward loads more effort for new Elite. This means material packages will be harder to get therefore less materials in the system.
There's also the fact we're having a second ec nerf by not getting item drops at the end of STF's, meaning buying stuff off the exchange becomes harder, not to mention getting the ultra-rare crafting materials will be hard and will make crafting experimental tech upgrades extortionately pricey and out of reach.
Finally, while all this dilithium is going towards this system it'll scuttle fleet contributions, it may well make rep progression more difficult. It makes purchasing stuff from your fleet after a well earned achievement feel less gratifying.
Speak for yourself and dont asume what ppl think. The fact is you are wrong. Lots of ppl are thinking to quit, if they havent done so allready when Crafting update came. Fleets and friends'lists are allmost empty. Most ppl wont pay this prices becouse thats not an UPGRADE, thats PAYING AGAIN even more then the original costs for your items. The point is the price does not justify the increased in efectivness. Does that item doubled its efectivness? No, and I am not saying it should, it would be OP. What I am saying is the upgrade prices should reflect item's increased efectivness. This doesnt have anything to do with ppl wanting to be easy, or fast or whatever you say. Its becouse the upgrade system has no logic or common sense what so ever. And you cant justify those insane prices with 2-4% chances to increase in rarity...
This^^ Don't come into this thread if you're going to make sweeping assumptions about the upgrade system and the feeling of the player base, speak for your fleet at most. Mosul makes a good point and others should follow their lead.
Sorry for the long post folks.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
First, how about stop telling me to "stop speaking for anyone else" and then go on in the same post to tell me how "Many people" are going to quit, or how you think the general player base is going to respond. I'm sorry that my perceptions of the player base are different than yours, but that doesn't make my general assertions any more or less objectionable than yours. Moreover, since historically the same arguments you are all making now get made pretty much any time Cryptic adds something to the game that (shock-horror!) they might expect players to PAY for, and since historically those same predictions of gloom and doom have not panned out, I would say that I am much more likely to be correct than you all are.
Second - Taras's math is a great example of the illogical way people are thinking about costs in the game. In essence, the argument is that if you have no dilithium, no ec, no crafting rank, and no stored crafting materials, the system costs to much to buy into (assuming you are buying the resources from scratch, and not playing at all). In other words, if you are planning to not play the repeatable content that provides the resources for the upgrade system, it will cost a huge amount to buy them by converting Zen. That is true. On the other hand, making that calculation is tantamount to saying "If I don't want to play the game, it's too expensive to get all this endgame gear". It should be obvious why that is an illogical objection. There are so many ways to get the resources needed for the upgrade system simply over the course of normal play that it makes no sense to me to think of the cost without considering how much players can save by actually engaging with content like the R+D system and the repeatable queues. Heck, in almost every single STF I run (on elite level) SOMEONE on my team gets a Superior upgrade kit as dropped loot.
Personally, I started gathering resources in mid/late August - I stared with under 20k dilithium, a smattering of crafting materials, no crafting school above 10, and about 1.5 million EC. By the time DR drops, I will have around 50 million EC (at least), 2 million dilithium, 3 crafting schools at level 15, and a large enough stockpile of materials to very nearly craft all the upgrade kits I need for my main ship myself. I have done this by playing about 1-3 hours a day (which I understand not everyone can do), including doing some Queued content that I hadn't done in long time, (or have never tried, like the Rh'whatever station mission), and finding them to be much more fun than I anticipated (and a nice change of pace from just running borg space STFs endlessly).
Oh, I will also say that given that I'm making EC hand over fist by crafting Improved upgrade kits and selling them on the exchange, it would seem that, at least currently, there is a LOT of buy in to the upgrade system from the player base at large - I sell kits sometimes as fast as I can make them. While there was a short term spike in resource costs the weekend the upgrade system launched, at this point it has stabilized such that superior kits are all less than 1 million credits (like I predicted up-thread), and the cost of the Very Rare materials has dropped as well, probably owning to an increase in supply as more people run the STFs to get mats (selling the ones they don't need to finance getting the ones they do).
That said, I do agree with the idea that the Rarity upgrade is too chancy for the costs right now - I have said as much multiple times. Having seen the current rarity upgrade accelerators, I don't think they are going to be generally sufficient to make the chance aspect more reasonable, and especially I think the interaction between TP accelerators and rarity upgrade chance should be looked at. It's possible that there are items we haven't seen yet in the C-store - like the Delta Vanguard upgrade kits just added to the Delta Operations Pack, for example. That said - flat out you don't need Epic rarity. It's nice - it's a big individual jump in item quality - but it is NOT necessary. I've been running around in DR with mostly Mk XIV Very Rare and Ultra Rare, and found I was feeling more than adequate for the Advanced level content, at least. Again, unless you are planning on playing Elite Queues the moment you hit lvl 60, you just don't need to buy all those upgrades right away.
There's no need for that kind of insulting, and frankly miss-informed, rant.
Firstly, mosul was clearly talking from their own experience. You on the other hand made a sweeping generalisation of the player base with no real evidence to back yourself up. That's hardly them being hypocritical.
Secondly, my maths has to be taken in this perspective. It's a very expensive method to upgrade and note I didn't count quality upgrades, though everyone agrees the real biter is the quality upgrades and not the mark upgrades though they could use tweaking. That's been the consensus for quite a while so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
At the same time we have to think about how it'll impact other parts of the game or newer players to the game. Us veterans should count ourselves lucky to be in the position we are in, as newer players will have a harder time gaining resources like we've been able to do. With the exception of Dyson Ground the usual methods are getting nerfed. It would be bad as testers not to consider these impacts seriously.
So when you make your statement about your resources, your making them of the back of a system that in not too long simply will be a completely different animal to deal with, therefore it is pretty irrelevant.
So unless you have any meaningful evidence to contradict us, don't bother posting these posts. Most of your post is a rant and has contributed little to this thread.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
There's no need for that kind of insulting, and frankly miss-informed, rant.
Firstly, mosul was clearly talking from their own experience. You on the other hand made a sweeping generalisation of the player base with no real evidence to back yourself up. That's hardly them being hypocritical.
Secondly, my maths has to be taken in this perspective. It's a very expensive method to upgrade and note I didn't count quality upgrades, though everyone agrees the real biter is the quality upgrades and not the mark upgrades though they could use tweaking. That's been the consensus for quite a while so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
At the same time we have to think about how it'll impact other parts of the game or newer players to the game. Us veterans should count ourselves lucky to be in the position we are in, as newer players will have a harder time gaining resources like we've been able to do. With the exception of Dyson Ground the usual methods are getting nerfed. It would be bad as testers not to consider these impacts seriously.
So when you make your statement about your resources, your making them of the back of a system that in not too long simply will be a completely different animal to deal with, therefore it is pretty irrelevant.
So unless you have any meaningful evidence to contradict us, don't bother posting these posts. Most of your post is a rant and has contributed little to this thread.
QFT.
To put it simply... If you are willing to pay, then pay. Don't come here on your high horse and act like a know-it-all. Math or not, the price IS an issue.
I can confirm this to be true. my fleet is t5 and all members stopped with their dilithium and ec contributions for the provisions since the launch of the crafting/upgrade system. lol
it's good for me, it makes it easier for me to get the fleet credits faster.
yeah, this is the law of action-reaction. now nobody got enough dil and ec more, maybe they will buy some zen???
cpryic/pwe does a good job on the income nerf. making everyone poor, but they have also the solution. just buy some zen, hohoho.
Ask that guy who has hit the ship slots cap and the alts cap and who has all the gear, how does he feel now? paying billions of dilithium to upgrade his stuff again to endlevel? nononononono, only a non intelligent person would do this.
they make all your already paid gear obsolete and let you pay again for the very same gear. i bet they are laughing at us and thinking most of us are stupid cashcows.
Curious how I've all too often heard and read visceral complaints against the upgrade system..."too many tech kits/tech modules, too much dilithium, etc...required"....some fewer; in number, people talking about the outrageous costs of these kit/modules on the exchange...for those of us who never wanted to learn how to craft. Notice what dilithium, and ECs have in common? Zen. For non-crafters to fully upgrade our equipment, dilithium AND ECs in the required quantities must be acquired to purchase the tech kits/modules on the exchange. For non-crafters and crafters alike, it comes down to one common denominator, for all of us...HUGE quantities of Zen are required. Further, if we do not; or as is true of a great many people in the world today...cannot afford to buy Cryptic's Zen with real money, it will surely take us all years to upgrade all of our equipment.
We have three choices...if we want to upgrade all of our equipment to fully Mk XIV "Gold/Epic".
1) Learn crafting...(which in itself would be pricy and take several months to level up to 15.) As is true of the vast majority of players, I did NOT join STO to learn how to craft things. I joined because of the Star Trek genre, to enjoy exploring the galaxy, new star systems and new worlds, combat in space and on the ground, to expand my mind and learn the intricacies of ships, tactics, TEAMWORK, etc I didnt join STO to sit around at starbases or in front of the exchange, making things that USED TO BE of lesser quality than I was; through hard work able to EARN for myself! Youll no doubt note that crafting is NOT itself found in ANY true Star Trek genre. Ever heard of replicators?
Even so, now they intentionally force it down our collective throats? By design, we non-crafters will be forced to pay through the nose for their so-called Epic equipment...or; of course, we can settle for second rate gear by comparison to Epic/Gold gear.
Many of us were never interested in crafting to us it was boring, uneventful and pointless. What I worked hard to earn via fleet stores and/or reputation systems, had always been far superior to anything a crafter could make. Now, that whole concept has been turned upside down. After having guided us along a path we felt was safe under our feet, after years of learning the ropes and working my behind off to be among the best in the game BY DESIGN, theyve changed the most important aspects and rules of the game. What was once true, no longer is.
2) Pay HUGE prices/EC's to acquire high quality tech upgrade kits/modules + work long and hard for an incredibly long period....years, to acquire enough dilithium towards that same goal.
3) Settle for second best with respect to the equipment we use.
Having spoken with a great many other players regarding enemies being vastly "upgraded" recently...and having personally experienced elite STFs lately, a great many of us have already discovered that the enemies we fight; having now become so hugely advanced in weapons power against us and offensive/defensive abilities...demand of us that we acquire Epic/Gold equipment...or we won't survive the encounters....or we'll barely survive.
Suddenly, even for players who until recently had the finest equipment, will now be relegated to second class players within the community...or but Zen in huge quantities.
This upgrade system is Cryptic's way of forcing all players, crafters and non-crafters alike, to spend tons of cash...real money, to buy Zen....plain and simple. As players, we are now put into a position where either we find a way to acquire the "Epic/Gold" equipment, or for us the game has become nearly unplayable, we don't stand a chance against such advanced enemies thanks to greed/avarice. Yet we're all supposed to be HAPPY about this?
I'm not new to the game. I was about to enter my 6th year in STO. I understand this game extremely well and I recognize clearly what's being done to us. See, that's Cryptic's problem (although I'm certain; at this point, they don't recognize it as such...but they will soon enough)...the vast majority of people in the game recognize what's been done to us as well. Already, many of my long-time friends; as well as new friends, have left the game, in complete disgust and outrage.
The obvious Truth here is either we start pouring cold hard cash into the C-Store, or suffer the consequences or leave the game. In taking advantage of people whom are already suffering through the worst global financial conditions in 75 years, on many levels this choice made is just plain wrong. I've already received word from a "game master" the upgrade system WILL happen. Minor changes might be made...but what you're already seeing is here to stay.
Years of hard work, planning, earning THE very best equipment via fleet stores and in the doing being supportive of our fleets .true teams, and literally thousands of elite STFs to work my way through those reputation systems and earn advanced fleet gear ALL OF IT has BY DESIGN gone out the window. I would go from being among the highest ranked (all of my characters have the Medal of Honor and all of my ships hit 30K DPS or thereabouts), hardest hitting, most supportive players in the game to second class status in one day!
Cryptic never did like to admit when it had made a terrible mistake. I still remember the disastrous first season and how many people thought STO was doomed in those days. I stood by them and STO when few did...and countless numbers of players abandoned the game. For years I made monthly payments to Cryptic, making possible my access to STO. Youll never meet or know of anyone who was once more fully supportive of both you people and the game itself.
They could still do right by us AND still roll-out the upgrade system. All they would have to do is make MK XIV Fleet level equipment available in the fleet stores. It wouldn't have to be "Epic" either. The same quality as before, at Mk XIV level...pure, simple and easy to accomplish.
For Cryptic and everyone who prefers not to join fleets, the upgrade system could remain intact, which would make Mk XIV equipment available even to non-fleet members and in the doing Cryptic would do right by everyone, increase it's own earnings and come out of this fiasco smelling like a proverbial rose.
But as is...Cryptic isn't just hurting individuals, it's devastating entire fleets. Given the extreme numbers of superior upgrade modules now required to upgrade our equipment together with a far greater demand in dilithium to support those upgrades, fleet projects are all stalling out due to lack of dilithium being contributed entire fleets are being made to suffer and will, for a very long time to come.
As I see reflected in the forums, this new upgrade system has already engendered anger and bitterness among players. Here; publicly, we will never see the true nature or depth of this anger. What many of us have already seen privately; in PMs and team chat, is rage...
As for myself, I could pull out the old credit card, acquire a few hundred thousand Zen...convert those into dilithium or with little effort...into ECs...no big. However, my first reason for playing MMO's is about people...making new friends worldwide...being helpful to them; most especially as pertains to fleet members and dear friends in my fleet. Already, I've seen a great many of those friends leave the game. Those who remain behind have already begun to suffer from this myopic avarice we're all supposed to be happy about...and vast numbers of those are also; reluctantly, seriously considering leaving STO. Too, we are all wondering how Cryptic; short to long term, imagines they'll draw people to the game. Nobody spends money here until/unless they make VA or shortly, Admiral. Anyone who is about to approach that threshold will see what we all see..and regret joining the game. This upgrade system,; as it currently stands, could easily see the game go the way of the dinosaur.
Thus, a 4th choice is sadly obvious...in addition to the above poor choices....leave...and find elsewhere what we all once had here. My response was to uninstall STO and go elsewhere to have fun. Fun IS after all, what "games" are about. Yes? Fun...and friendships. Why on earth would I participate...why would I stay, where my friends are being so badly treated?
Here's to the hope Cryptic comes to their senses...that they consider the alternative options I've suggested and adopt them. Or, put another way what has often been the number one rated MMO, Star Trek Online could quite easily and quickly, come to a quick and rather unspectacular end. If you doubt this, consider "World of ********". After losing 700,000 players in just three months, "World of ********" is firmly on the decline. Since peaking at 12 million subscribers in 2011, gaming experts see it as a dying game. While it continues to be considered as strong publicly; by the game's producer, with such huge losses of players each time I go there Im shocked at how nobody I knew for such a long time plays WoW anymore. Too, people there never speak well of WoW, neither are they willing to spend money in WoW...or do they spend much time in that game. Personally, I wont waste my time in WoW anymore. I was there at its peak and what changes WoW have made werent nearly as unkind or radically unfair (most would and do say cruel)...as the coming gear upgrade system.
I'm truly sad for us all. While I'll; for a time, keep tabs on STO via the forums and Dev blogs...hoping Cryptic will at some point show true "caring" about it's player community AND their fleets, every response from Cryptic's reps; thus far, suggests they have one goal and that will never change. The gear upgrade system is in full rollout and nothing we write here in the forums is going to change that fact. These are bad times for us all; those of us whom have for years been fully supportive of both STO and of Cryptic.
As for you whom disagree? lol I couldn't care less...for I recognize Truth and see the FACTS for what they are. Write whatever you wish...and none of it will change the Truth or those facts.
I wish each of you...and Cryptic, the very best always.
We still cannot upgrade Fleet projectile tactical consoles with projectile tech upgrades. I tired the quantum fleet ones and all failed with project tech upgrades.
QFT.
To put it simply... If you are willing to pay, then pay. Don't come here on your high horse and act like a know-it-all. Math or not, the price IS an issue.
VERY well said gameverseman
and that guy calls himself a "veteran"? lol
Speaking as someone who shortly would have begun my 6th year in STO...with the advent of the gear upgrade system, the most important aspects; indeed the basics of the game will have radically been changed.
Too, it's not just individuals whom are being ground into the dirt...entire fleets are now witnessing stalling projects for weeks on end; given that dilithium and ECs are now being diverted to personal gear upgrades. Isn't it curious how some defend such a thing.
Of course, far too many others think only of themselves and never consider anyone else. Such is the nature of the vast majority in the world; not to exclude those who conceptualized the gear upgrade system and insist on it's inception...as well as those whom support it.
Anyone who sits down with access to a calculator will see for themselves...for non-crafters 500 million ECs would likely not be adequate to purchase; via the exchange, upgrade tech kits/modules for ONE character's upgrading to "Epic"... Consider multiple alts.
it is reasonable to expect mark 14 fleet gear either at the same time or shortly after.
Of course that is the hope of us all...at least, those of us who aren't into crafting. Considering superior grade upgrade tech kits/modules will be requisite in great numbers overall; even per character...and they're now selling for an average of just under one million each, to fully bring any one character's equipment to "Epic" levels will; even today, be quite pricy.
Once again, given years of experience...soon after Delta Rising begins, those same superior grade upgrade kits will likely skyrocket in price...and that upward trend will continue indefinitely.
However, as I was not far from starting my 6th year in STO; from experience in the game, Cryptic has always previously stated their intentions along those lines.
Thus far, nothing I've heard or read suggests Mk XIV fleet level gear will be made available via fleet stores.
I don't think you're being negative, so much as I think we just have literally entirely different views on what a reasonable cost for the upgrades is. You are saying you see the values in that spreadsheet as "too expensive", and I see them as almost shockingly cheap. My point of comparison is what I imagine it would have cost to have to buy entirely new Mk XIV fleet/rep gear, instead of upgrading the gear I've already got, and this system is a fantastic deal for the player.
Your mileage may vary, but I think expecting those dilithium costs to come down is probably unrealistic. Objectively, they are well in line with the current cost of Mk XII gear, so if you feel like current gear is too expensive, you likely won't like this system either. If, like me, you don't feel that current gear is too expensive, but you also don't relish the thought of essentially vendor-trashing the items you've already bought to buy entirely new items at a higher price, this seems like a good deal.
EXCUSE ME? lol
Return to the fleet stores and have a good look at the dilithium costs of fleet weapons; by way of example. Those facts blow your assertions out of the water. This is true of ALL Mk XII equipment as is compared to the costs of upgrading any equipment from fleet level Mk XII to MK XIV "Epic" levels....or even merely fleet level Mk XIV levels.
Fleet Advanced Antiproton Dual Beams Mk XII are selling for 9,100 in dilithium...which is a far cry from being "on par with" or by your definition....more expensive than using the gear upgrade system...which you say is cheaper by far.
The last time I looked 17,000 is a HUGELY greater number than 9,100. Add to these figures the additional costs of a great many superior tech kits/modules PER item being upgraded...and you still imagine the new system to be "cheaper"...and/or "reasonable"?
Goodness, if you see it as being so...have I got a bridge I'd love to sell to you! hehe
Return to the fleet stores and have a good look at the dilithium costs of fleet weapons; by way of example. Those facts blow your assertions out of the water. This is true of ALL Mk XII equipment as is compared to the costs of upgrading any equipment from fleet level Mk XII to MK XIV "Epic" levels....or even merely fleet level Mk XIV levels.
Fleet Advanced Antiproton Dual Beams Mk XII are selling for 9,100 in dilithium...which is a far cry from being "on par with" or by your definition....more expensive than using the gear upgrade system...which you say is cheaper by far.
The last time I looked 17,000 is a HUGELY greater number than 9,100. Add to these figures the additional costs of a great many superior tech kits/modules PER item being upgraded...and you still imagine the new system to be "cheaper"...and/or "reasonable"?
Goodness, if you see it as being so...have I got a bridge I'd love to sell to you! hehe
Although you are correct, hypothetically speaking, fleet Mk XIVs would cost more than Mk XIIs. However, since you cannot purchase Mk XIVs, you cannot accurately take that into account.
Who have a Covariant Shield Array [Cap]x3? I have MK10 variant of that shield which I've bought for marks of honor (yes, this is an old shield) and I cannot upgrade it.
Who have a Covariant Shield Array [Cap]x3? I have MK10 variant of that shield which I've bought for marks of honor (yes, this is an old shield) and I cannot upgrade it.
I have a Mk XII covariant capx3 and last I checked it was upgradeable.
2014 the great craptic cash grab as far as im concerned
if i was a new player the cost+time gates of the game would were me down n i would just walk away like ive done from meny games.
There's no need for that kind of insulting, and frankly miss-informed, rant.
Firstly, mosul was clearly talking from their own experience. You on the other hand made a sweeping generalisation of the player base with no real evidence to back yourself up. That's hardly them being hypocritical.
First, I wasn't just talking to mosul - I was talking to him, you and everyone else who thinks that it's okay to assert that there is a broad based consensus opposed to the upgrade system, but not okay to assert the reverse. It seems telling to me that you can "clearly" see how mosul's generalization about people being opposed is based on his/her own experience, but MY generalization is based on "no real evidence" (except of course for MY experiences, including my view of history and my experience with people buying upgrade kits from me practically as fast as I can craft them). In other words, it is a double standard - because you agree with one point of view, assertions from that direction are fine, but it's not okay to do it from a different point of view. I'm sure this will again sound like an insulting rant to you, but it's not - it's just reasoned disagreement. I consider my experiences and point of view to be just as valid a starting place for my conclusions as you consider yours. The difference is that I actually tried to explain why I think I am more accurate in my perceptions about the game than you are, instead of pretending (like you are) that I'm not basing my conclusions off personal experiences.
Secondly, my maths has to be taken in this perspective. It's a very expensive method to upgrade and note I didn't count quality upgrades, though everyone agrees the real biter is the quality upgrades and not the mark upgrades though they could use tweaking. That's been the consensus for quite a while so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
Why? Why do we have to consider the costs from the perspective of someone who wants top Mk gear, but has no resources on hand and doesn't want to spend the time to earn them in game? Why is that the rational way to think about the costs, instead of attempting to model how actual players might play the game?
Oh, and I have NO idea what you are talking about RE: rarity upgrade costs. What claim of mine are you responding to? I agree that the rarity costs are the real sticking point, and have for some time. What I disagree with, then, is that the Mk upgrade costs are an issue, while you are clearly advocating that they are.
At the same time we have to think about how it'll impact other parts of the game or newer players to the game. Us veterans should count ourselves lucky to be in the position we are in, as newer players will have a harder time gaining resources like we've been able to do. With the exception of Dyson Ground the usual methods are getting nerfed. It would be bad as testers not to consider these impacts seriously.
I did think about how Delta Rising would affect new players. My conclusion is that it is not FOR new players. Unlike the Romulan expansion, there's not much to Delta Rising that will draw new players in - there's no new faction to start with, and even if you are a huge Voyager fan, all of the new content is in the lvl 50 to 60 progression, so it would be a while before you ever got to it. Thus, I think, by design, Delta Rising is an expansion that is aimed at veteran players like us who have been at the level cap for years and are looking for new ways to improve our characters. In a very real sense, the "grind" for better gear etc. is the raison d'etre for the entire expansion.
So when you make your statement about your resources, your making them of the back of a system that in not too long simply will be a completely different animal to deal with, therefore it is pretty irrelevant.
Well, let's unpack this a little bit. You say the system will be a completely different animal to deal with. I presume by this, and your reference to the "nerfing" of usual methods of resource gathering, you are talking about two things - first, the removal of item rewards for finishing queued content, and second, the change in dilithium reward structure.
For the item thing, remember that we're not talking about removing drops from MOBs in missions - just the rewards at the end of (say) infected, where you get a Mk XI or Mk XII blue or purple. As an EC revenue stream, those drops are ultimately not worth that much (~10k EC on average maybe) if you are vendor trashing them. While the vast majority of those drops are vendor trash (and thus no great loss in terms of EC earned), occasionally you would get lucky and get an item you could sell on the exchange for a decent price, so that IS a potential loss. On the other hand, they are also replacing those items with crafting material drops. If only there was some new game system that massively increased the demand for some sort of crafted item, and thus increased the demand on the exchange for crafting mats, it may be that players would find they could make up the personal EC loss by selling to other players. Hmm....
For the dilithium thing, it's true that the Dilithium rates are being lowered for some queues, including the ever popular Borg STFs. I suspect the intention here is to encourage people to play a wider variety of queued content, rather than simply playing the Borg space STFs over and over again because they offered the greatest dilithium reward relative to time investment. We'll see if they can actually make that stick - I suspect not, but I believe the intent is not so much to nerf income as it is to normalize it across the different queues. It is worth noting that well down the road, level capped players with, in theory, have an additional Dilithium revenue stream from earning skill points, but I have no idea how much that will be - I suspect not very much. Overall, I think even if the new reward structure doesn't get adjusted, players will simply adapt by going playing a wider variety of content, including things like Dilithium Mining dailies (whoo for account bound Rich Dilithium Claims!).
All that aside, for the past week or so my primary EC revenue has been from crafting and selling upgrade kits - and that system certainly isn't going away. There is a lot in Delta Rising for players who are willing to adapt to the new systems and think about how they want to get the resources they need. Of course, there will also be the players who don't want to bother with that, and just want to load up a ship and go "pew", and that's fine too - it doesn't take Mk XIV Golds to do that.
So unless you have any meaningful evidence to contradict us, don't bother posting these posts. Most of your post is a rant and has contributed little to this thread.
I'm pretty sure my reasoned dissent has done more to foster an actual DISCUSSION in this thread than the myriad of "QFT" and "Cost is outrageous/Cryptic is greedy/Delta Rising is a money grab" posts have. I'm sorry you can't see the value in that, and that you consider my analysis to be ranting merely because it comes from a different (I would argue wider, probably more accurate) viewpoint than your own.
Return to the fleet stores and have a good look at the dilithium costs of fleet weapons; by way of example. Those facts blow your assertions out of the water. This is true of ALL Mk XII equipment as is compared to the costs of upgrading any equipment from fleet level Mk XII to MK XIV "Epic" levels....or even merely fleet level Mk XIV levels.
Fleet Advanced Antiproton Dual Beams Mk XII are selling for 9,100 in dilithium...which is a far cry from being "on par with" or by your definition....more expensive than using the gear upgrade system...which you say is cheaper by far.
The last time I looked 17,000 is a HUGELY greater number than 9,100. Add to these figures the additional costs of a great many superior tech kits/modules PER item being upgraded...and you still imagine the new system to be "cheaper"...and/or "reasonable"?
Goodness, if you see it as being so...have I got a bridge I'd love to sell to you! hehe
Don't just look at fleet weapons - look at fleet/rep consoles, Rep weapons, Rep/Fleet Engines, shields, deflectors, and Warp cores. Alternately, just total up what you spent in dilithium on your current ship, and compare it to what it will cost to upgrade that gear (~300,000 dilithium, likely). If you have all Rep/Fleet (especially "Elite" fleet) gear, I suspect upgrades will cost less than your initial investment. They certainly do for me.
Although you are correct, hypothetically speaking, fleet Mk XIVs would cost more than Mk XIIs. However, since you cannot purchase Mk XIVs, you cannot accurately take that into account.
Or, you know, you could just extrapolate a likely cost for Mk XIV very rare gear, and go from there. Seriously, I don't get why you are having such a hard time accepting that this is even possible to do in principle. It's not like we are completely unable to imagine what price Cryptic might assign to such gear.
Second, you are misunderstanding your research. The variability in costs you are seeing is due to getting occasional crits which multiply the tech points added by a given kit by 1.5 or 2 times. Thus, if you look at the Tech points needed for an upgrade (listed under the item) and divide by 12,800 (the tech points per Superior Kit), you will arrive at the maximum number of kits you need (and thus the maximum dilithium cost for that upgrade). Depending on how many crits you get, that number may go down in practice, but it will never go up. You do not, as you suggest, need to worry that somehow the cost is going to be higher than expected, unless you go into the upgrade "expecting" to get a specific number of crits (which is a silly thing to do).
You seem to incorrectly perceive that if your character is at the "top" level of performance right now that it is somehow a "nerf" to you if a new level of power opens up and you don't have instant free access to it. The opportunity to improve your character should not be seen as a slight against the work you've already - none of the gear you currently have (that you are happy with, evidently) is going away - you are merely being given the chance to improve upon it, if you wish.
Now, you will already, no doubt, be formulating a response along the lines of saying "But we NEED the new gear to compete in the new content, so we ARE being nerfed, and it's unfair". First, I have to say, from playing the content on Tribble, you really DON'T need the new Mk XIV gear to complete the storyline missions, nor to do the normal and Advanced Queued content. You DO need to be "well geared" by today's standards for the Advanced Queues, but you absolutely don't HAVE to have the new stuff. If you are content with what you have now, you should have no reason to be discontent that there are options for more out there. I get that people might feel that way, but to me it's exactly as irrational as a person feeling upset because a new iPhone came out, or whatever. If your current phone has served you well, there's no reason to upgrade to the newer model - the fact that you might WANT to upgrade doesn't mean that you should, nor does it mean that you should expect that upgrade to be free (or even cheap).
This is important to understand, because it helps shine a light on what people mean when they mean they are being "Forced" to grind. It's not that people are being locked out of content, it's that people perceive being "not the best" as being the same as "useless" - I think of this as the Ricky Bobby fallacy ("If you ain't first, you're last!"). In practice, this is the kind of thinking that causes people to believe that finishing ISE (as it is now) with "only" 5 minutes left on the timer is some kind of shameful experience. The point of the game should be to play the game, not to play the game as fast as possible.
This, of course, brings us to your question of "why should we be forced to grind?" The short answer is - you aren't. Cryptic isn't forcing you to grind - YOU are forcing you to grind, because you are choosing to value having the "new hotness" over "having fun playing". Indeed, it often seems like for some people it is impossible to separate those two concepts, which I find to be an irrational way of perceiving the world.
Yes, I straight up disagree with your assessment. I think people would absolutely be willing to pay 40,000 dilithium straight up for a Mk XIV Very Rare quality weapon, and as a result I think that's a fair price. If you disagree, don't pay it, obviously. Or pay it over time, or whatever. Unless your goal is to jump into the Lvl 60 Elite Queues ASAP, there seems little actual NEED for everything to be upgraded.
40,000 for a Very Rare? I don't think so. Maybe for an Ultra Rare or an Epic. Considering that you need 6-8 weapons per ship there's no way I want to spend 320,000 on the weapons alone if they're only Very Rare. For the other parts that you only need 1 of like the shield/Engine/Deflector/Core, 40,000 for an Ultra Rare Mk XIV might work.
Of course the hypocrisy in this statement is that I'll end up paying more than that to upgrade my 8 weapons to XIV Very Rare (averaged 48,375 each). Although I guess you might say it isn't hypocrisy since I'll force myself to pay that much against my will. :P
As for rarity bumps, I still haven't decided if I want to bother with rarity increases for any of my space gear. I must have more datas!
Heck, in almost every single STF I run (on elite level) SOMEONE on my team gets a Superior upgrade kit as dropped loot.
Which doesn't matter a single iota unless that person is you, for the purposes of our calculations. A tech drop that goes to somebody else doesn't help me to upgrade my own stuff and thus is excluded from my calculations for resource acquisition. It's great that SOMEbody gets one but unless it's you, that doesn't factor into your personal cost calculations at all. Unless you're buying off the exchange (which I have no plans to do) and if the drop rate is that high then in the long term it could drive prices down, but it will still be impossible to beat the price to craft them yourself.
Unless your point was just a general 'well the drop rate seems to be pretty good so that'll help you out when you get the lucky roll.'
Or, you know, you could just extrapolate a likely cost for Mk XIV very rare gear, and go from there. Seriously, I don't get why you are having such a hard time accepting that this is even possible to do in principle. It's not like we are completely unable to imagine what price Cryptic might assign to such gear.
Because imagination is not his middle name and research is not his game.
And finally, I've added two new rows to my sheet. Row 27 is the maximum possible number of failures when trying to do a quality increase (assuming no accelerator use or Experimental kit use), although it would take an extraordinarily bad string of luck to actually hit that number of failures.
Row 28 is a projection of the average number of trials to get an upgrade thanks to some big help from frtoaster. This may not be the best way to do a cost estimation though and I'm working on something else that will work more on 'If I put in this many inputs' and give you a chance output instead.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Who have a Covariant Shield Array [Cap]x3? I have MK10 variant of that shield which I've bought for marks of honor (yes, this is an old shield) and I cannot upgrade it.
If you mean the original you got from PvP marks or whatever they were called way back when? I have one of those I can check to verify.
Edit: I just checked. Mine shows as upgradable.
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
Actually the thread was more civilised before some certain people joined, not just you. However if you can't make an attempt to be pleasant to people I don't care what you have to say, because apart from the fact I don't like your idea of evidence you seem happy to go out your way to be unpleasant to people, be it in a rather passive manner.
Like I said, this thread was a lot more productive before, now it's just getting more and more posts of people making these grand statements and then not backing them up with any real evidence. I'm happy to listen to people but only if they give me a reason to.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
40,000 for a Very Rare? I don't think so. Maybe for an Ultra Rare or an Epic. Considering that you need 6-8 weapons per ship there's no way I want to spend 320,000 on the weapons alone if they're only Very Rare. For the other parts that you only need 1 of like the shield/Engine/Deflector/Core, 40,000 for an Ultra Rare Mk XIV might work.
Of course the hypocrisy in this statement is that I'll end up paying more than that to upgrade my 8 weapons to XIV Very Rare (averaged 48,375 each). Although I guess you might say it isn't hypocrisy since I'll force myself to pay that much against my will. :P
As for rarity bumps, I still haven't decided if I want to bother with rarity increases for any of my space gear. I must have more datas!
I got to the 40,000 number by looking at the current prices for Mk XII weapons in the reputation stores - currently 22,500 - and working from there. It was a bit of an eye opener, to be honest. If you are using rep gear, weapons alone already cost you over between 140,000 and 180,000 dilithium, to say nothing of the cost of rep consoles and shields etc. Note that in addition to the 15,000 or 32,000 dilithium cost for rep gear projects, there is also a substantial cost in marks, which in turn could have been converted into more dilithium, so there is an opportunity cost of additional dilithium in addition to the direct costs.
Similarly, for fleet gear, you are looking at ~15,000 dilithium per piece of "elite" fleet gear - PLUS the fleet credits cost, which may or may not translate to an effective additional dilithium cost. If you are like many people in my fleet and use dilithium as a way to get large amounts of fleet credits quickly, a single Elite space weapon might already be costing you 30,000 to 45,000 dilithium- it's just that part of that cost is indirect via the fleet credits.
So, that's where I'm coming from when I say 40,000 dilithium "straight up" - I feel like that's a hike from the current values, for sure, but probably not actually as much as people think, and we don't actually have to pay it all at once.
Which doesn't matter a single iota unless that person is you, for the purposes of our calculations. A tech drop that goes to somebody else doesn't help me to upgrade my own stuff and thus is excluded from my calculations for resource acquisition. It's great that SOMEbody gets one but unless it's you, that doesn't factor into your personal cost calculations at all. Unless you're buying off the exchange (which I have no plans to do) and if the drop rate is that high then in the long term it could drive prices down, but it will still be impossible to beat the price to craft them yourself.
Unless your point was just a general 'well the drop rate seems to be pretty good so that'll help you out when you get the lucky roll.'
Fair enough - you are right, my point was basically that if you are willing to wait a potentially LONG time, you can get the items from drops as well, or more realistically you can expect to get an occasional drop that will help lower your personal costs a little bit.
And finally, I've added two new rows to my sheet. Row 27 is the maximum possible number of failures when trying to do a quality increase (assuming no accelerator use or Experimental kit use), although it would take an extraordinarily bad string of luck to actually hit that number of failures.
Row 28 is a projection of the average number of trials to get an upgrade thanks to some big help from frtoaster. This may not be the best way to do a cost estimation though and I'm working on something else that will work more on 'If I put in this many inputs' and give you a chance output instead.
This is super helpful information, thanks for continuing to update it! My concern with the upgrades is basically that while any one person has to get unlucky to incur those massive costs, the number of people running upgrades as well as the number of upgrades they are running means it's virtually certain that someone is going to get royally screwed.
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sigh....
because they aren't concerned with the people selling the zen.... its the people trying to BUY it.
Everytime the price inexplictly goes up its costs more dilith to buy. So if you had 200K dilith you suddenly need 300K for the same pay out. Since you can only get 8K dilith a day there is a constant. If you want that zen now your choice is to grind grind grind.... Or BUY ZEN FROM THE CSTORE!!!!
The entire point is to keep people from getting free zen and force them to have to buy it.
If you follow the market for any length of time you will see that the amount of zen for sale is more or less the same. all that happens is that bulk amounts just move from one price to a higher one.
On the iten exchange, if you want to sell say a crappy engine and the average price is say 200K, do you post yours for 200K, 199k or 275K? That's what happens on the dilith exchange. If the average price is say 150 there will be an inexplicable amount posted at 155. The intent is simply to move the price higher, not to actually sell it
I understand what you are complaining about, far better than you do, I think. When I say you want the Mk XIV gear on Oct. 14th, I am referring to the exact mentality you are expressing here.
You seem to incorrectly perceive that if your character is at the "top" level of performance right now that it is somehow a "nerf" to you if a new level of power opens up and you don't have instant free access to it. The opportunity to improve your character should not be seen as a slight against the work you've already - none of the gear you currently have (that you are happy with, evidently) is going away - you are merely being given the chance to improve upon it, if you wish.
Now, you will already, no doubt, be formulating a response along the lines of saying "But we NEED the new gear to compete in the new content, so we ARE being nerfed, and it's unfair". First, I have to say, from playing the content on Tribble, you really DON'T need the new Mk XIV gear to complete the storyline missions, nor to do the normal and Advanced Queued content. You DO need to be "well geared" by today's standards for the Advanced Queues, but you absolutely don't HAVE to have the new stuff. If you are content with what you have now, you should have no reason to be discontent that there are options for more out there. I get that people might feel that way, but to me it's exactly as irrational as a person feeling upset because a new iPhone came out, or whatever. If your current phone has served you well, there's no reason to upgrade to the newer model - the fact that you might WANT to upgrade doesn't mean that you should, nor does it mean that you should expect that upgrade to be free (or even cheap).
This is important to understand, because it helps shine a light on what people mean when they mean they are being "Forced" to grind. It's not that people are being locked out of content, it's that people perceive being "not the best" as being the same as "useless" - I think of this as the Ricky Bobby fallacy ("If you ain't first, you're last!"). In practice, this is the kind of thinking that causes people to believe that finishing ISE (as it is now) with "only" 5 minutes left on the timer is some kind of shameful experience. The point of the game should be to play the game, not to play the game as fast as possible.
This, of course, brings us to your question of "why should we be forced to grind?" The short answer is - you aren't. Cryptic isn't forcing you to grind - YOU are forcing you to grind, because you are choosing to value having the "new hotness" over "having fun playing". Indeed, it often seems like for some people it is impossible to separate those two concepts, which I find to be an irrational way of perceiving the world.
A more useful answer to your question, though, might be to put it like this - the reason you are "forced" to grind is that "grinding" IS the endgame play for STO (and most MMOs, in fact). The intention is that Lvl 60 players will spend most of their time playing repeatable queue content to gather resources to improve their gear so that they can improve their performance in repeatable content so that they can get better gear so that... and so on. You might not like that end game - that's fine. The thing you have to realize is that if you find the experience of playing repeatable content to earn better gear be unsatisfying, it seems unlikely that having that same gear at a lower cost/shorter time investment will suddenly make that "grindy" content more satisfying, nor will it "unlock" non-grinding content that you couldn't do with your current setup, because there really isn't any such thing.
The same goes for the complaints about how much time/effort it takes to level crafting, or the time/effort it takes to get the reputations finished, etc. Those "grinds" ARE the endgame of STO, by and large. If you find that to be unsatisfying, that's fine, but again, I have to wonder, what do you think SHOULD be the endgame experience? Right now you are essentially complaining that it costs too much money to be "done" with the game as fast as possible, and that you don't want to be "forced" to play repeatable content for several months to earn the resources without paying real money. Assuming you had your way, and the costs for the upgrades were so low as to be essentially non-existent, what do you envision yourself doing in the game for those same two or three months? What content will you be playing, if it's not the repeatable content you so loathe being forced to do?
[Compressed Cryo Launcher]
[Crystalline Personal Shield Matrix]
[Crystal-Woven Environmental Suit]
The costs don't just look high to people who expect to upgrade everything to Mk XIV on October 14. I simply disagree with you on the relative value of mark and rarity vs. dilithium.
A purple Mk XII space weapon from the reputation store requires 22500 dilithium. To upgrade that same weapon to Mk XIV requires 16125 dilithium.
(22500 + 16125) / 22500 = 1.7167
If we take the dilithium costs to represent roughly the values Cryptic places on gear, then they seem think a Mk XIV weapon is worth 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. You seem to generally agree with their opinion; in fact, since you've expressed several times that the current prices are "a deal", perhaps you believe a Mk XIV weapon is worth more than 1.7 times a Mk XII weapon. That's where you and I disagree: I would say that a Mk XIV weapon is worth around 1.1667 times a Mk XII weapon.
1 zen bought for dilithium is worth the same to cryptic as 1 zen bought for c-store content. That's the function of the dilithium exchange, it differs the paid price of content to other people who are willing to take some other resource in exchange. I absolutely fail to see what it benefits cryptic to create an artificial marketplace (especially if all they're supposedly interested in is a fixed rate of some kind or another. They could have just FIXED THE EXCHANGE RATE if that were indeed the case) and perpetuate the disception as far as ceaselessly manipulating the rate according to reasonable changes in supply and demand.
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Yes, I straight up disagree with your assessment. I think people would absolutely be willing to pay 40,000 dilithium straight up for a Mk XIV Very Rare quality weapon, and as a result I think that's a fair price. If you disagree, don't pay it, obviously. Or pay it over time, or whatever. Unless your goal is to jump into the Lvl 60 Elite Queues ASAP, there seems little actual NEED for everything to be upgraded. Make it a long term goal and play towards that.
Again - getting this gear IS the end game. If you don't want to play that game, that's fine, but the argument against the costs always comes down to either a) I don't want to pay Zen to get the dilithium to rush the system or b) I don't want to play the repeatable content to get the resources over time, both of which seem to me to be requests to, in essence, skip directly to the "end" of the game where you have everything you want, and bypass the part where you have fun earning it.
In my case, it's neither (a) nor (b). I plan to wait at least a month before upgrading anything. That would be the case even if upgrades were free, because that's how long I think it will take them to fix whatever bugs they are going to fix. More likely, I will wait 3 to 6 months, because I want to see how the Exchange settles and weigh my options before buying. I probably have enough dilithium right now to upgrade everything on one character, but I will wait anyway. My other characters are either not yet level 50 or level-50 characters with Mk VIII gear, so that tells you how much of a rush I'm in to upgrade their equipment. If it takes years to grind for all the resources needed to fully equip all my characters, then so be it. I place less value on Mk XIV equipment than you do simply because I do; it has nothing to do with how long I'm willing to wait or how much I'm willing to grind.
Sellers always want more for their goods, and buyers always want to pay less. That's normal. Some sellers charge more than others, and some buyers are willing to pay more than others. That's normal too. There is natural variation among buyers and sellers. I think it's important for players to say how much they would pay rather than just accept Cryptic's price or not, because there is a fundamental asymmetry in how we buy things from Cryptic.
In most markets, the seller sets a price, and the buyer has only two choices---buy or don't buy. The Exchange, C-Store, Lobi store, reputation store, fleet stores, crafting system, and upgrade system all work this way. Most people don't question this, because that's how most markets work in real life too. But there are alternative markets in which both buyers and sellers can set prices. Take the dilithium exchange for example. Both buyers and sellers put up offers indicating the prices at which they are willing to buy and sell, respectively. These prices act as signals between buyers and sellers. Now, consider the market in which Cryptic is seller and the players are buyers. The signals in this market carry very little information. Players can send only binary signals: buy or don't buy. Theoretically, the prices set by Cryptic can take a range of values, but in practice, Cryptic sets only one price. Sometimes, they offer a discount, and rarely, they make long-term price changes. But for extended periods of time, the price set by Cryptic carries only one point of information. It is actually hard for Cryptic to determine the price which maximizes profit in this market. All they can see is that some people are buying and others not. They don't know how many would buy at higher prices and how many would buy at lower. The mechanisms of the market do not allow a player to say "I would buy this item if Cryptic only lowered the price by this much." The only way for a player to say this is to post on the forums. Of course, it's always in the interest of a buyer to give a lower price than the maximum he or she would pay. But there are other buyers like mrtshead who offer to pay more. This gives Cryptic a range of values to work with.
Speak for yourself and dont asume what ppl think. The fact is you are wrong. Lots of ppl are thinking to quit, if they havent done so allready when Crafting update came. Fleets and friends'lists are allmost empty. Most ppl wont pay this prices becouse thats not an UPGRADE, thats PAYING AGAIN even more then the original costs for your items. The point is the price does not justify the increased in efectivness. Does that item doubled its efectivness? No, and I am not saying it should, it would be OP. What I am saying is the upgrade prices should reflect item's increased efectivness. This doesnt have anything to do with ppl wanting to be easy, or fast or whatever you say. Its becouse the upgrade system has no logic or common sense what so ever. And you cant justify those insane prices with 2-4% chances to increase in rarity...
I've posted this in from a thread in general discussion because this person posted two exactly identical posts, so I thought I'd post in my maths here to help this thread.This is an edited version of what I responded to the person I quoted who made the same starting post in this thread, hopefully that makes sense. I just didn't want people to think the post was out of place, I just didn't want to write the entire thing again and so long as the context is still here it should be fine.
So firstly we'll talk what the problem is so we're both clear:
Going up the grades from XII to XIII to XIV isn't all that bad, as many people have already said. Should it cost dilithium when your purely adding tech points and not actually upgrading from one mark to the next? Of course not, but that's something Cryptic to change easily enough.
Now the quality upgrades are the clinching point, actually going up from one quality to another is very chancy especially for Epic quality, with some people using up obscene amounts of dilithium to upgrade one item.
Now before anyone says you don't need to go to gold quality I'd like to point out a few things. A gold quality item gets a fixed modifier. This modifier is very powerful, such as the one for engines which doubles the driver coil or the shields modifier that doubles the capacity. Those are insanely powerful.
Also, along with that modifier the stats on the item should improve again, which makes gold quality simply more than a simple quality upgrade, and in fact is probably worth 2 quality upgrades in it's own right, maybe a bit more. So for example, a MACO shield with about 460 hit points (depending on ps gen skill) go up to 920 hit points without factoring in mark and quality bonuses to the capacity base as you go along.
So we can't argue that epic quality makes a big different to the capability of the item in question, now to some maths; I have a cruiser and a ground toon, the cruiser has 22 items on it that can be upgraded, the ground gear is 4 items though we don't know what's going to happen with kits yet.
26 items therefore need upgrading. In rounded numbers, 70,200 tech points needed for me to upgrade each console, from ultra-rare which most of them are from Mk XII. 70,200 x 10 = 702,000 tech points / 12800 (superior tech) = 55 tech upgrades as we can't use half an upgrade, so rounded up. 55 tech x 1075 dilithium = 59,125 dilithium for me to upgrade those consoles to Mk XIV.
12 weapons and core items (core = shields, engines, deflector and core) next, again they're fleet quality. 216,000 combined tech points to go from Mk XII to Mk XIV again, so 216,000 x 12 items = 2,592,000 tech points which / 12,800 (superior tech) = 203 techs, rounded as again can't use half a tech. 203 superior techs x 1075 dilithium = 218,225 dilithium, just for mark upgrades.
Finally my ground gear, 4 items but like I said we don't know about the kits yet. 3 VR items one UR. 128,050 tech point from Mark XII to XIV x 3 items = 384,150 tech points, which again divided by 12,800 superior techs = 31 techs needed x 1075 dilithium = 33325 + my UR item I did separately for 12900 = 46,225 dilithium.
Therefore, 46,225 + 218,225 + 59,125 = 323,575 dilithium just to go from Mark XII to XIV on all those items combined and having used 289 superior tech upgrades. Now that's assuming you don't get lucky doing upgrades, which is more likely anyway.
I'll come back to gold quality in a minute. I want to focus on some other points right now. For example acquiring superior tech upgrades. You made the idiotic claim that you did 2 STF's and got a tech in each, yet you fail to consider the other people in your groups, I take it they didn't get any? Because from my fleets testing we have run no end of STF's since Cryptic dumped this on Holodeck and we have only gained 4 techs out of a few dozen missions collectively.
So we could look at the exchange, but last look ground tech upgrades were going for 820,000 ec each and some space weapon ones are 169,000. Cannons are 720,000 Shield 875,000, engineering 700,000, 680,000 for science tech, torp tech 1,750,000, all those of those are superior. Just for the sakes of easiness if we take an average of the prices, and ignore beams and torps as they're clearly outliers, the average comes out at 759,000 energy credits.
So 289 superior techs x 759,000 average = 219,351,000 energy credits, and as that's an average that will inevitably be a conservative figure.
Now it obviously works out better to form the materials but now we hit the next snag, which is the latest dilithium nerf. This is the development that the STF's are being made harder and come with less rewards, so it makes it harder for people to get the dilithium they need (480 dilithium per old level Elite, whereas new level Elite has the 960). So this means more effort less reward for advanced level and same reward loads more effort for new Elite. This means material packages will be harder to get therefore less materials in the system.
There's also the fact we're having a second ec nerf by not getting item drops at the end of STF's, meaning buying stuff off the exchange becomes harder, not to mention getting the ultra-rare crafting materials will be hard and will make crafting experimental tech upgrades extortionately pricey and out of reach.
Finally, while all this dilithium is going towards this system it'll scuttle fleet contributions, it may well make rep progression more difficult. It makes purchasing stuff from your fleet after a well earned achievement feel less gratifying.
This^^ Don't come into this thread if you're going to make sweeping assumptions about the upgrade system and the feeling of the player base, speak for your fleet at most. Mosul makes a good point and others should follow their lead.
Sorry for the long post folks.
First, how about stop telling me to "stop speaking for anyone else" and then go on in the same post to tell me how "Many people" are going to quit, or how you think the general player base is going to respond. I'm sorry that my perceptions of the player base are different than yours, but that doesn't make my general assertions any more or less objectionable than yours. Moreover, since historically the same arguments you are all making now get made pretty much any time Cryptic adds something to the game that (shock-horror!) they might expect players to PAY for, and since historically those same predictions of gloom and doom have not panned out, I would say that I am much more likely to be correct than you all are.
Second - Taras's math is a great example of the illogical way people are thinking about costs in the game. In essence, the argument is that if you have no dilithium, no ec, no crafting rank, and no stored crafting materials, the system costs to much to buy into (assuming you are buying the resources from scratch, and not playing at all). In other words, if you are planning to not play the repeatable content that provides the resources for the upgrade system, it will cost a huge amount to buy them by converting Zen. That is true. On the other hand, making that calculation is tantamount to saying "If I don't want to play the game, it's too expensive to get all this endgame gear". It should be obvious why that is an illogical objection. There are so many ways to get the resources needed for the upgrade system simply over the course of normal play that it makes no sense to me to think of the cost without considering how much players can save by actually engaging with content like the R+D system and the repeatable queues. Heck, in almost every single STF I run (on elite level) SOMEONE on my team gets a Superior upgrade kit as dropped loot.
Personally, I started gathering resources in mid/late August - I stared with under 20k dilithium, a smattering of crafting materials, no crafting school above 10, and about 1.5 million EC. By the time DR drops, I will have around 50 million EC (at least), 2 million dilithium, 3 crafting schools at level 15, and a large enough stockpile of materials to very nearly craft all the upgrade kits I need for my main ship myself. I have done this by playing about 1-3 hours a day (which I understand not everyone can do), including doing some Queued content that I hadn't done in long time, (or have never tried, like the Rh'whatever station mission), and finding them to be much more fun than I anticipated (and a nice change of pace from just running borg space STFs endlessly).
Oh, I will also say that given that I'm making EC hand over fist by crafting Improved upgrade kits and selling them on the exchange, it would seem that, at least currently, there is a LOT of buy in to the upgrade system from the player base at large - I sell kits sometimes as fast as I can make them. While there was a short term spike in resource costs the weekend the upgrade system launched, at this point it has stabilized such that superior kits are all less than 1 million credits (like I predicted up-thread), and the cost of the Very Rare materials has dropped as well, probably owning to an increase in supply as more people run the STFs to get mats (selling the ones they don't need to finance getting the ones they do).
That said, I do agree with the idea that the Rarity upgrade is too chancy for the costs right now - I have said as much multiple times. Having seen the current rarity upgrade accelerators, I don't think they are going to be generally sufficient to make the chance aspect more reasonable, and especially I think the interaction between TP accelerators and rarity upgrade chance should be looked at. It's possible that there are items we haven't seen yet in the C-store - like the Delta Vanguard upgrade kits just added to the Delta Operations Pack, for example. That said - flat out you don't need Epic rarity. It's nice - it's a big individual jump in item quality - but it is NOT necessary. I've been running around in DR with mostly Mk XIV Very Rare and Ultra Rare, and found I was feeling more than adequate for the Advanced level content, at least. Again, unless you are planning on playing Elite Queues the moment you hit lvl 60, you just don't need to buy all those upgrades right away.
There's no need for that kind of insulting, and frankly miss-informed, rant.
Firstly, mosul was clearly talking from their own experience. You on the other hand made a sweeping generalisation of the player base with no real evidence to back yourself up. That's hardly them being hypocritical.
Secondly, my maths has to be taken in this perspective. It's a very expensive method to upgrade and note I didn't count quality upgrades, though everyone agrees the real biter is the quality upgrades and not the mark upgrades though they could use tweaking. That's been the consensus for quite a while so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
At the same time we have to think about how it'll impact other parts of the game or newer players to the game. Us veterans should count ourselves lucky to be in the position we are in, as newer players will have a harder time gaining resources like we've been able to do. With the exception of Dyson Ground the usual methods are getting nerfed. It would be bad as testers not to consider these impacts seriously.
So when you make your statement about your resources, your making them of the back of a system that in not too long simply will be a completely different animal to deal with, therefore it is pretty irrelevant.
So unless you have any meaningful evidence to contradict us, don't bother posting these posts. Most of your post is a rant and has contributed little to this thread.
QFT.
To put it simply... If you are willing to pay, then pay. Don't come here on your high horse and act like a know-it-all. Math or not, the price IS an issue.
[Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XIII [Aux]]
Curious how I've all too often heard and read visceral complaints against the upgrade system..."too many tech kits/tech modules, too much dilithium, etc...required"....some fewer; in number, people talking about the outrageous costs of these kit/modules on the exchange...for those of us who never wanted to learn how to craft. Notice what dilithium, and ECs have in common? Zen. For non-crafters to fully upgrade our equipment, dilithium AND ECs in the required quantities must be acquired to purchase the tech kits/modules on the exchange. For non-crafters and crafters alike, it comes down to one common denominator, for all of us...HUGE quantities of Zen are required. Further, if we do not; or as is true of a great many people in the world today...cannot afford to buy Cryptic's Zen with real money, it will surely take us all years to upgrade all of our equipment.
We have three choices...if we want to upgrade all of our equipment to fully Mk XIV "Gold/Epic".
1) Learn crafting...(which in itself would be pricy and take several months to level up to 15.) As is true of the vast majority of players, I did NOT join STO to learn how to craft things. I joined because of the Star Trek genre, to enjoy exploring the galaxy, new star systems and new worlds, combat in space and on the ground, to expand my mind and learn the intricacies of ships, tactics, TEAMWORK, etc I didnt join STO to sit around at starbases or in front of the exchange, making things that USED TO BE of lesser quality than I was; through hard work able to EARN for myself! Youll no doubt note that crafting is NOT itself found in ANY true Star Trek genre. Ever heard of replicators?
Even so, now they intentionally force it down our collective throats? By design, we non-crafters will be forced to pay through the nose for their so-called Epic equipment...or; of course, we can settle for second rate gear by comparison to Epic/Gold gear.
Many of us were never interested in crafting to us it was boring, uneventful and pointless. What I worked hard to earn via fleet stores and/or reputation systems, had always been far superior to anything a crafter could make. Now, that whole concept has been turned upside down. After having guided us along a path we felt was safe under our feet, after years of learning the ropes and working my behind off to be among the best in the game BY DESIGN, theyve changed the most important aspects and rules of the game. What was once true, no longer is.
2) Pay HUGE prices/EC's to acquire high quality tech upgrade kits/modules + work long and hard for an incredibly long period....years, to acquire enough dilithium towards that same goal.
3) Settle for second best with respect to the equipment we use.
Having spoken with a great many other players regarding enemies being vastly "upgraded" recently...and having personally experienced elite STFs lately, a great many of us have already discovered that the enemies we fight; having now become so hugely advanced in weapons power against us and offensive/defensive abilities...demand of us that we acquire Epic/Gold equipment...or we won't survive the encounters....or we'll barely survive.
Suddenly, even for players who until recently had the finest equipment, will now be relegated to second class players within the community...or but Zen in huge quantities.
This upgrade system is Cryptic's way of forcing all players, crafters and non-crafters alike, to spend tons of cash...real money, to buy Zen....plain and simple. As players, we are now put into a position where either we find a way to acquire the "Epic/Gold" equipment, or for us the game has become nearly unplayable, we don't stand a chance against such advanced enemies thanks to greed/avarice. Yet we're all supposed to be HAPPY about this?
I'm not new to the game. I was about to enter my 6th year in STO. I understand this game extremely well and I recognize clearly what's being done to us. See, that's Cryptic's problem (although I'm certain; at this point, they don't recognize it as such...but they will soon enough)...the vast majority of people in the game recognize what's been done to us as well. Already, many of my long-time friends; as well as new friends, have left the game, in complete disgust and outrage.
The obvious Truth here is either we start pouring cold hard cash into the C-Store, or suffer the consequences or leave the game. In taking advantage of people whom are already suffering through the worst global financial conditions in 75 years, on many levels this choice made is just plain wrong. I've already received word from a "game master" the upgrade system WILL happen. Minor changes might be made...but what you're already seeing is here to stay.
Years of hard work, planning, earning THE very best equipment via fleet stores and in the doing being supportive of our fleets .true teams, and literally thousands of elite STFs to work my way through those reputation systems and earn advanced fleet gear ALL OF IT has BY DESIGN gone out the window. I would go from being among the highest ranked (all of my characters have the Medal of Honor and all of my ships hit 30K DPS or thereabouts), hardest hitting, most supportive players in the game to second class status in one day!
Cryptic never did like to admit when it had made a terrible mistake. I still remember the disastrous first season and how many people thought STO was doomed in those days. I stood by them and STO when few did...and countless numbers of players abandoned the game. For years I made monthly payments to Cryptic, making possible my access to STO. Youll never meet or know of anyone who was once more fully supportive of both you people and the game itself.
They could still do right by us AND still roll-out the upgrade system. All they would have to do is make MK XIV Fleet level equipment available in the fleet stores. It wouldn't have to be "Epic" either. The same quality as before, at Mk XIV level...pure, simple and easy to accomplish.
For Cryptic and everyone who prefers not to join fleets, the upgrade system could remain intact, which would make Mk XIV equipment available even to non-fleet members and in the doing Cryptic would do right by everyone, increase it's own earnings and come out of this fiasco smelling like a proverbial rose.
But as is...Cryptic isn't just hurting individuals, it's devastating entire fleets. Given the extreme numbers of superior upgrade modules now required to upgrade our equipment together with a far greater demand in dilithium to support those upgrades, fleet projects are all stalling out due to lack of dilithium being contributed entire fleets are being made to suffer and will, for a very long time to come.
As I see reflected in the forums, this new upgrade system has already engendered anger and bitterness among players. Here; publicly, we will never see the true nature or depth of this anger. What many of us have already seen privately; in PMs and team chat, is rage...
As for myself, I could pull out the old credit card, acquire a few hundred thousand Zen...convert those into dilithium or with little effort...into ECs...no big. However, my first reason for playing MMO's is about people...making new friends worldwide...being helpful to them; most especially as pertains to fleet members and dear friends in my fleet. Already, I've seen a great many of those friends leave the game. Those who remain behind have already begun to suffer from this myopic avarice we're all supposed to be happy about...and vast numbers of those are also; reluctantly, seriously considering leaving STO. Too, we are all wondering how Cryptic; short to long term, imagines they'll draw people to the game. Nobody spends money here until/unless they make VA or shortly, Admiral. Anyone who is about to approach that threshold will see what we all see..and regret joining the game. This upgrade system,; as it currently stands, could easily see the game go the way of the dinosaur.
Thus, a 4th choice is sadly obvious...in addition to the above poor choices....leave...and find elsewhere what we all once had here. My response was to uninstall STO and go elsewhere to have fun. Fun IS after all, what "games" are about. Yes? Fun...and friendships. Why on earth would I participate...why would I stay, where my friends are being so badly treated?
Here's to the hope Cryptic comes to their senses...that they consider the alternative options I've suggested and adopt them. Or, put another way what has often been the number one rated MMO, Star Trek Online could quite easily and quickly, come to a quick and rather unspectacular end. If you doubt this, consider "World of ********". After losing 700,000 players in just three months, "World of ********" is firmly on the decline. Since peaking at 12 million subscribers in 2011, gaming experts see it as a dying game. While it continues to be considered as strong publicly; by the game's producer, with such huge losses of players each time I go there Im shocked at how nobody I knew for such a long time plays WoW anymore. Too, people there never speak well of WoW, neither are they willing to spend money in WoW...or do they spend much time in that game. Personally, I wont waste my time in WoW anymore. I was there at its peak and what changes WoW have made werent nearly as unkind or radically unfair (most would and do say cruel)...as the coming gear upgrade system.
I'm truly sad for us all. While I'll; for a time, keep tabs on STO via the forums and Dev blogs...hoping Cryptic will at some point show true "caring" about it's player community AND their fleets, every response from Cryptic's reps; thus far, suggests they have one goal and that will never change. The gear upgrade system is in full rollout and nothing we write here in the forums is going to change that fact. These are bad times for us all; those of us whom have for years been fully supportive of both STO and of Cryptic.
As for you whom disagree? lol I couldn't care less...for I recognize Truth and see the FACTS for what they are. Write whatever you wish...and none of it will change the Truth or those facts.
I wish each of you...and Cryptic, the very best always.
Ciao
VERY well said gameverseman
and that guy calls himself a "veteran"? lol
Speaking as someone who shortly would have begun my 6th year in STO...with the advent of the gear upgrade system, the most important aspects; indeed the basics of the game will have radically been changed.
Too, it's not just individuals whom are being ground into the dirt...entire fleets are now witnessing stalling projects for weeks on end; given that dilithium and ECs are now being diverted to personal gear upgrades. Isn't it curious how some defend such a thing.
Of course, far too many others think only of themselves and never consider anyone else. Such is the nature of the vast majority in the world; not to exclude those who conceptualized the gear upgrade system and insist on it's inception...as well as those whom support it.
Anyone who sits down with access to a calculator will see for themselves...for non-crafters 500 million ECs would likely not be adequate to purchase; via the exchange, upgrade tech kits/modules for ONE character's upgrading to "Epic"... Consider multiple alts.
The purest Truth is self-apparent...
Of course that is the hope of us all...at least, those of us who aren't into crafting. Considering superior grade upgrade tech kits/modules will be requisite in great numbers overall; even per character...and they're now selling for an average of just under one million each, to fully bring any one character's equipment to "Epic" levels will; even today, be quite pricy.
Once again, given years of experience...soon after Delta Rising begins, those same superior grade upgrade kits will likely skyrocket in price...and that upward trend will continue indefinitely.
However, as I was not far from starting my 6th year in STO; from experience in the game, Cryptic has always previously stated their intentions along those lines.
Thus far, nothing I've heard or read suggests Mk XIV fleet level gear will be made available via fleet stores.
Here's to hoping you're correct in the assertion.
EXCUSE ME? lol
Return to the fleet stores and have a good look at the dilithium costs of fleet weapons; by way of example. Those facts blow your assertions out of the water. This is true of ALL Mk XII equipment as is compared to the costs of upgrading any equipment from fleet level Mk XII to MK XIV "Epic" levels....or even merely fleet level Mk XIV levels.
Fleet Advanced Antiproton Dual Beams Mk XII are selling for 9,100 in dilithium...which is a far cry from being "on par with" or by your definition....more expensive than using the gear upgrade system...which you say is cheaper by far.
The last time I looked 17,000 is a HUGELY greater number than 9,100. Add to these figures the additional costs of a great many superior tech kits/modules PER item being upgraded...and you still imagine the new system to be "cheaper"...and/or "reasonable"?
Goodness, if you see it as being so...have I got a bridge I'd love to sell to you! hehe
Although you are correct, hypothetically speaking, fleet Mk XIVs would cost more than Mk XIIs. However, since you cannot purchase Mk XIVs, you cannot accurately take that into account.
I have a Mk XII covariant capx3 and last I checked it was upgradeable.
if i was a new player the cost+time gates of the game would were me down n i would just walk away like ive done from meny games.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/30ba8f355444948
It says me that the item is already fully upgraded.
First, I wasn't just talking to mosul - I was talking to him, you and everyone else who thinks that it's okay to assert that there is a broad based consensus opposed to the upgrade system, but not okay to assert the reverse. It seems telling to me that you can "clearly" see how mosul's generalization about people being opposed is based on his/her own experience, but MY generalization is based on "no real evidence" (except of course for MY experiences, including my view of history and my experience with people buying upgrade kits from me practically as fast as I can craft them). In other words, it is a double standard - because you agree with one point of view, assertions from that direction are fine, but it's not okay to do it from a different point of view. I'm sure this will again sound like an insulting rant to you, but it's not - it's just reasoned disagreement. I consider my experiences and point of view to be just as valid a starting place for my conclusions as you consider yours. The difference is that I actually tried to explain why I think I am more accurate in my perceptions about the game than you are, instead of pretending (like you are) that I'm not basing my conclusions off personal experiences.
Why? Why do we have to consider the costs from the perspective of someone who wants top Mk gear, but has no resources on hand and doesn't want to spend the time to earn them in game? Why is that the rational way to think about the costs, instead of attempting to model how actual players might play the game?
Oh, and I have NO idea what you are talking about RE: rarity upgrade costs. What claim of mine are you responding to? I agree that the rarity costs are the real sticking point, and have for some time. What I disagree with, then, is that the Mk upgrade costs are an issue, while you are clearly advocating that they are.
I did think about how Delta Rising would affect new players. My conclusion is that it is not FOR new players. Unlike the Romulan expansion, there's not much to Delta Rising that will draw new players in - there's no new faction to start with, and even if you are a huge Voyager fan, all of the new content is in the lvl 50 to 60 progression, so it would be a while before you ever got to it. Thus, I think, by design, Delta Rising is an expansion that is aimed at veteran players like us who have been at the level cap for years and are looking for new ways to improve our characters. In a very real sense, the "grind" for better gear etc. is the raison d'etre for the entire expansion.
Well, let's unpack this a little bit. You say the system will be a completely different animal to deal with. I presume by this, and your reference to the "nerfing" of usual methods of resource gathering, you are talking about two things - first, the removal of item rewards for finishing queued content, and second, the change in dilithium reward structure.
For the item thing, remember that we're not talking about removing drops from MOBs in missions - just the rewards at the end of (say) infected, where you get a Mk XI or Mk XII blue or purple. As an EC revenue stream, those drops are ultimately not worth that much (~10k EC on average maybe) if you are vendor trashing them. While the vast majority of those drops are vendor trash (and thus no great loss in terms of EC earned), occasionally you would get lucky and get an item you could sell on the exchange for a decent price, so that IS a potential loss. On the other hand, they are also replacing those items with crafting material drops. If only there was some new game system that massively increased the demand for some sort of crafted item, and thus increased the demand on the exchange for crafting mats, it may be that players would find they could make up the personal EC loss by selling to other players. Hmm....
For the dilithium thing, it's true that the Dilithium rates are being lowered for some queues, including the ever popular Borg STFs. I suspect the intention here is to encourage people to play a wider variety of queued content, rather than simply playing the Borg space STFs over and over again because they offered the greatest dilithium reward relative to time investment. We'll see if they can actually make that stick - I suspect not, but I believe the intent is not so much to nerf income as it is to normalize it across the different queues. It is worth noting that well down the road, level capped players with, in theory, have an additional Dilithium revenue stream from earning skill points, but I have no idea how much that will be - I suspect not very much. Overall, I think even if the new reward structure doesn't get adjusted, players will simply adapt by going playing a wider variety of content, including things like Dilithium Mining dailies (whoo for account bound Rich Dilithium Claims!).
All that aside, for the past week or so my primary EC revenue has been from crafting and selling upgrade kits - and that system certainly isn't going away. There is a lot in Delta Rising for players who are willing to adapt to the new systems and think about how they want to get the resources they need. Of course, there will also be the players who don't want to bother with that, and just want to load up a ship and go "pew", and that's fine too - it doesn't take Mk XIV Golds to do that.
I'm pretty sure my reasoned dissent has done more to foster an actual DISCUSSION in this thread than the myriad of "QFT" and "Cost is outrageous/Cryptic is greedy/Delta Rising is a money grab" posts have. I'm sorry you can't see the value in that, and that you consider my analysis to be ranting merely because it comes from a different (I would argue wider, probably more accurate) viewpoint than your own.
Don't just look at fleet weapons - look at fleet/rep consoles, Rep weapons, Rep/Fleet Engines, shields, deflectors, and Warp cores. Alternately, just total up what you spent in dilithium on your current ship, and compare it to what it will cost to upgrade that gear (~300,000 dilithium, likely). If you have all Rep/Fleet (especially "Elite" fleet) gear, I suspect upgrades will cost less than your initial investment. They certainly do for me.
Or, you know, you could just extrapolate a likely cost for Mk XIV very rare gear, and go from there. Seriously, I don't get why you are having such a hard time accepting that this is even possible to do in principle. It's not like we are completely unable to imagine what price Cryptic might assign to such gear.
This. Very much this. (Emphasis added)
Also all of this.
40,000 for a Very Rare? I don't think so. Maybe for an Ultra Rare or an Epic. Considering that you need 6-8 weapons per ship there's no way I want to spend 320,000 on the weapons alone if they're only Very Rare. For the other parts that you only need 1 of like the shield/Engine/Deflector/Core, 40,000 for an Ultra Rare Mk XIV might work.
Of course the hypocrisy in this statement is that I'll end up paying more than that to upgrade my 8 weapons to XIV Very Rare (averaged 48,375 each). Although I guess you might say it isn't hypocrisy since I'll force myself to pay that much against my will. :P
As for rarity bumps, I still haven't decided if I want to bother with rarity increases for any of my space gear. I must have more datas!
Which doesn't matter a single iota unless that person is you, for the purposes of our calculations. A tech drop that goes to somebody else doesn't help me to upgrade my own stuff and thus is excluded from my calculations for resource acquisition. It's great that SOMEbody gets one but unless it's you, that doesn't factor into your personal cost calculations at all. Unless you're buying off the exchange (which I have no plans to do) and if the drop rate is that high then in the long term it could drive prices down, but it will still be impossible to beat the price to craft them yourself.
Unless your point was just a general 'well the drop rate seems to be pretty good so that'll help you out when you get the lucky roll.'
TL;DR If you quit then why are you still here?
Because imagination is not his middle name and research is not his game.
And finally, I've added two new rows to my sheet. Row 27 is the maximum possible number of failures when trying to do a quality increase (assuming no accelerator use or Experimental kit use), although it would take an extraordinarily bad string of luck to actually hit that number of failures.
Row 28 is a projection of the average number of trials to get an upgrade thanks to some big help from frtoaster. This may not be the best way to do a cost estimation though and I'm working on something else that will work more on 'If I put in this many inputs' and give you a chance output instead.
Joined January 2009
If you mean the original you got from PvP marks or whatever they were called way back when? I have one of those I can check to verify.
Edit: I just checked. Mine shows as upgradable.
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Actually the thread was more civilised before some certain people joined, not just you. However if you can't make an attempt to be pleasant to people I don't care what you have to say, because apart from the fact I don't like your idea of evidence you seem happy to go out your way to be unpleasant to people, be it in a rather passive manner.
Like I said, this thread was a lot more productive before, now it's just getting more and more posts of people making these grand statements and then not backing them up with any real evidence. I'm happy to listen to people but only if they give me a reason to.
I got to the 40,000 number by looking at the current prices for Mk XII weapons in the reputation stores - currently 22,500 - and working from there. It was a bit of an eye opener, to be honest. If you are using rep gear, weapons alone already cost you over between 140,000 and 180,000 dilithium, to say nothing of the cost of rep consoles and shields etc. Note that in addition to the 15,000 or 32,000 dilithium cost for rep gear projects, there is also a substantial cost in marks, which in turn could have been converted into more dilithium, so there is an opportunity cost of additional dilithium in addition to the direct costs.
Similarly, for fleet gear, you are looking at ~15,000 dilithium per piece of "elite" fleet gear - PLUS the fleet credits cost, which may or may not translate to an effective additional dilithium cost. If you are like many people in my fleet and use dilithium as a way to get large amounts of fleet credits quickly, a single Elite space weapon might already be costing you 30,000 to 45,000 dilithium- it's just that part of that cost is indirect via the fleet credits.
So, that's where I'm coming from when I say 40,000 dilithium "straight up" - I feel like that's a hike from the current values, for sure, but probably not actually as much as people think, and we don't actually have to pay it all at once.
Fair enough - you are right, my point was basically that if you are willing to wait a potentially LONG time, you can get the items from drops as well, or more realistically you can expect to get an occasional drop that will help lower your personal costs a little bit.
This is super helpful information, thanks for continuing to update it! My concern with the upgrades is basically that while any one person has to get unlucky to incur those massive costs, the number of people running upgrades as well as the number of upgrades they are running means it's virtually certain that someone is going to get royally screwed.