Oh really? I eventually upgraded FIVE sets of shields....4 of which were initially identical in every way.
I meticulously made screenshots/snips during the process(es) of all five processes at each step. I recorded on a word document precisely how many superior tech upgrade "modules" were used, while applying one accelerator to each process. I also recorded the amount of dilithium which was required to fully complete each process.
ALL five sets of shields upgrades required varying numbers of tech modules and dilithium. There was no commonality. Some upgrades made it to 98%, others to 94%, 97% etc., while only one made it to 100% after applying SIX tech upgrade modules. Most never completely advanced to the next highest Mk level and thus required an additional 7th tech module. To all five processes I added one accelerator of the same grade (which were given to us all by Cryptic) The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
Additionally, NONE of the dilithium expenditures were the same, varying as much as 2,000.
I restate, I'm speaking of 4 IDENTICAL types and levels of shields....requiring vastly different numbers of applied superior tech upgrade modules and requisite dilithium. The one set of shields which was slightly different than the other 4 (One Mk level lower, as it were), I am not referencing in what I've just described.
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
So it's a blind investment?..... Great. I'm with you 100%
Oh really? I eventually upgraded FIVE sets of shields....4 of which were initially identical in every way.
I meticulously made screenshots/snips during the process(es) of all five processes at each step. I recorded on a word document precisely how many superior tech upgrade "modules" were used, while applying one accelerator to each process. I also recorded the amount of dilithium which was required to fully complete each process.
ALL five sets of shields upgrades required varying numbers of tech modules and dilithium. There was no commonality. Some upgrades made it to 98%, others to 94%, 97% etc., while only one made it to 100% after applying SIX tech upgrade modules. Most never completely advanced to the next highest Mk level and thus required an additional 7th tech module. To all five processes I added one accelerator of the same grade (which were given to us all by Cryptic) The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
Additionally, NONE of the dilithium expenditures were the same, varying as much as 2,000.
I restate, I'm speaking of 4 IDENTICAL types and levels of shields....requiring vastly different numbers of applied superior tech upgrade modules and requisite dilithium. The one set of shields which was slightly different than the other 4 (One Mk level lower, as it were), I am not referencing in what I've just described.
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
Identical items should not require varying amounts of resources to upgrade by one mark. If that's what you're seeing, then please file a bug report.
One explanation for what you're seeing could be that you're receiving rarity upgrades at different marks. For example, suppose you upgrade two identical items from Mk I common to Mk XIV epic, but for the first item, you receive an upgrade from common to uncommon at Mk III, and for the second, you receive an upgrade from common to uncomon at Mk IV. Then, starting from Mk III, your upgrade costs will be different, because an uncommon item costs more to upgrade than a common item.
Remember that any time you apply a tech upgrade you have a chance for a critical success, which adds more tech points. This could allow you to complete a specific item's upgrades more rapidly than normal.
Remember that any time you apply a tech upgrade you have a chance for a critical success, which adds more tech points. This could allow you to complete a specific item's upgrades more rapidly than normal.
Where is this chance for critical success shown? What does the chance depend on? Does a critical success add anything else besides TP?
Remember that any time you apply a tech upgrade you have a chance for a critical success, which adds more tech points. This could allow you to complete a specific item's upgrades more rapidly than normal.
Are you addressing the quality penalty on a crit? Pretty please with whipped cream on top? :]
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
Just to put the Dev quote about this in context - you are right, you can't truly know how many superior kits it will take to get a Mk upgrade, because it might take LESS than you anticipated. It can never take more than what was in the spreadsheet referenced above, because those assume you get no crits at all. Plan for those numbers - if you get lucky with some crits, the worst that happens is you save a little bit of extra dilithium, and you have a superior kit or two to (re?)sell on the exchange.
Just to put the Dev quote about this in context - you are right, you can't truly know how many superior kits it will take to get a Mk upgrade, because it might take LESS than you anticipated. It can never take more than what was in the spreadsheet referenced above, because those assume you get no crits at all. Plan for those numbers - if you get lucky with some crits, the worst that happens is you save a little bit of extra dilithium, and you have a superior kit or two to (re?)sell on the exchange.
You can take an educated guess however, and if you get lucky for whatever reason then that's great, however at the end of the day we know what the most likely result is and therefore that's where the figures should start from.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
You can take an educated guess however, and if you get lucky for whatever reason then that's great, however at the end of the day we know what the most likely result is and therefore that's where the figures should start from.
Yes, the figures should start with what it costs if you don't get lucky. Those costs (for Mk upgrades specifically) are already low, and you might even pay LESS, so the randomness for the Mk upgrades (not rarity upgrades) is entirely in the player's favor.
In other words, it's not something to complain about.
This new system is just another lockbox and dilthium, kits,mats,ECs,and accelerators are the key. Only difference is, this is much more mandatory than a lockbox.
The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
.
see that's the "hidden" cost people aren't taking into account. It might cost you 1K to upgrade but it took time and resources to get the modules.
So depending on where you are at with which "skill tree" it could take you months before you can even craft these.
Only people who are spending vast amounts of dilith to level will be there before next year.
So those 6 modules you needed take 12 ULTRA rare materials and 6 very rare and 90K EC. and that's for one item. You'll need a lot of Ultra Rare materials. Now these could drop like LBs and be a dime a dozen or a lot of grinding and then only in certain missions/content. We don't really know at this point. But chances are these items will be wildly over priced on the exchange, at least for the first 9 months or so.
As with most crafting in most games there will always be more profit in selling mats to "crafters" than there is in selling actual items.
What I am faced with is that when the system was first released I had no intention of crafting anything in shields, engineering etc. So I never bothered with those trees. So now I am starting all those from scratch. So maybe in 4-6 months I might be able to upgrade on my own --- if I have also grinded enough mats in that time.
see that's the "hidden" cost people aren't taking into account. It might cost you 1K to upgrade but it took time and resources to get the modules.
So depending on where you are at with which "skill tree" it could take you months before you can even craft these.
Only people who are spending vast amounts of dilith to level will be there before next year.
So those 6 modules you needed take 12 ULTRA rare materials and 6 very rare and 90K EC. and that's for one item. You'll need a lot of Ultra Rare materials. Now these could drop like LBs and be a dime a dozen or a lot of grinding and then only in certain missions/content. We don't really know at this point. But chances are these items will be wildly over priced on the exchange, at least for the first 9 months or so.
As with most crafting in most games there will always be more profit in selling mats to "crafters" than there is in selling actual items.
What I am faced with is that when the system was first released I had no intention of crafting anything in shields, engineering etc. So I never bothered with those trees. So now I am starting all those from scratch. So maybe in 4-6 months I might be able to upgrade on my own --- if I have also grinded enough mats in that time.
Which, apparently, is chump change and that's why nothing will change.
.... That statement is far from the truth and everyone knows it. You are right, simple as that.
You can take an educated guess however, and if you get lucky for whatever reason then that's great, however at the end of the day we know what the most likely result is and therefore that's where the figures should start from.
Yes, the figures should start with what it costs if you don't get lucky. Those costs (for Mk upgrades specifically) are already low, and you might even pay LESS, so the randomness for the Mk upgrades (not rarity upgrades) is entirely in the player's favor.
In other words, it's not something to complain about.
Well, I would complain that the crit chance isn't shown in the UI (as far as I can tell). I don't like hidden mechanics.
Switching topics, can we get the ability to slot multiple techs at the same time? That would reduce the amount of clicking needed.
Yes, the figures should start with what it costs if you don't get lucky. Those costs (for Mk upgrades specifically) are already low, and you might even pay LESS, so the randomness for the Mk upgrades (not rarity upgrades) is entirely in the player's favor.
In other words, it's not something to complain about.
Yet the cost will add up for multiple items, especially upgrading your ship and ground gear, not to mention if you choose to do the bridge officers or not.
Granted mark upgrades are at least half okay but they still need tuning down a bit, a single smaller payment on the actual upgrade would make a lot more sense.
The real concern in this thread has always been the quality upgrades, don't mistake that.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Too, consider what's being done to fleets and their projects. For reasons which aren't important here, I have multiple contacts among a great many fleets...and their projects; thus their progress, has stalled completely...due to a complete end of dilithium contributions and a great lack of players being willing to spend ECs to buy what projects require. Everyone's saving both ECs and dilithium...and the vast majority already realize unless they spend a LOT of cold hard cash...they'll never see their goals of being fully MK XIV Ultra Rare equipped.
I can confirm this to be true. my fleet is t5 and all members stopped with their dilithium and ec contributions for the provisions since the launch of the crafting/upgrade system. lol
it's good for me, it makes it easier for me to get the fleet credits faster.
yeah, this is the law of action-reaction. now nobody got enough dil and ec more, maybe they will buy some zen???
cpryic/pwe does a good job on the income nerf. making everyone poor, but they have also the solution. just buy some zen, hohoho.
Originally Posted by inputend21 View Post
Are any Devs going to respond to the INSANE costs of this "upgrade" system? I mean several HUNDRED THOUSAND dilithium just to upgrade *ONE* ship? not including Ground Equipment? I thought you where trying to get players to go out and try new things? But you aren't you are pigeonholing people into flying with ONE SHIP,and only play ONE FREAKING CHARACTER...SO my alts are going to shrivel up and die as I will never be playing them again,and my 30+ ships and hundreds of items are now completely obsolete in this new system....this is just stupid.
Ask that guy who has hit the ship slots cap and the alts cap and who has all the gear, how does he feel now? paying billions of dilithium to upgrade his stuff again to endlevel? nononononono, only a non intelligent person would do this.
they make all your already paid gear obsolete and let you pay again for the very same gear. i bet they are laughing at us and thinking most of us are stupid cashcows.
I can confirm this to be true. my fleet is t5 and all members stopped with their dilithium and ec contributions for the provisions since the launch of the crafting/upgrade system.
As a leader in two fleets in STO, the minute the senior officers and myself heard about the upgrade system, the level cap increase and the T6 ships being rolled out. We immediately sent out fleet wide mails advising people to hold on to their dilithium and zen. Also we advised people to hold off purchasing any current t5/5.5 ships until we had more information. Whilst our fed fleet is T5, our KDF one is stuck in limbo between T4 & 5, which is perfectly understandable. Considering the numbers and constant contradictions with what this upgrade is going to cost players.
Identical items should not require varying amounts of resources to upgrade by one mark. If that's what you're seeing, then please file a bug report.
One explanation for what you're seeing could be that you're receiving rarity upgrades at different marks. For example, suppose you upgrade two identical items from Mk I common to Mk XIV epic, but for the first item, you receive an upgrade from common to uncommon at Mk III, and for the second, you receive an upgrade from common to uncomon at Mk IV. Then, starting from Mk III, your upgrade costs will be different, because an uncommon item costs more to upgrade than a common item.
Ok...RE-READ what I wrote...then, how you've responded.
THEN...you'll understand why I'm wondering how you could have even gone there.
Every Superior Tech upgrade "module" I applied to those 4 sets of shields were identical. So too were the shields themselves.
I deliberately used identical upgrade tech modules on identical shields...and closely documented every step of all four upgrade processes; both on a Word document AND with screenshots/snips.
Even so, I demonstrated with the most meticulous precision that varying numbers of tech upgrade modules and dilithium were required to upgrade all four shields in precisely the same way.
In my initial writeup I was very clear about this.
My intent; basically was research...cautiously, careful made. I wanted to learn yet another of Cryptic's intents and uncover the possible bugs I had been told existed, as regards this nightmarish upgrade system. I posted the comment as a warning to everyone, that they should always be fully prepared to have more tech upgrade modules and more dilithium than they expect they'll be needing.
My reasoning is simple, I had heard a few others stopped the process; mid-upgrade as it were, because they didn't have enough tech upgrade modules/and/or dilithium...had to acquire more of each before resuming the process. When they returned to complete the upgrade process they discovered the item being upgraded have been deleted.
System bug? Probably...who knows? My singular intent was to get people to see they should be completely prepared for the unexpected...by having more tech modules and dilithium than they "expect" they wil need, prior to initiating the upgrade process.
I think you are thinking that the kits act as a sort of "lottery" chance to upgrade an item - they don't. Each kit applies a certain number of "Tech Points" to the item. 2000 for a basic kit, 5000 for an intermediate kit, and 12800 for a superior kit. Each kit also costs a certain amount of dilithium to apply. Once the total number of "Tech Points" on the item reaches a certain threshold (you can see the progress bar on the upgrade screen), then the upgrade to the next mark level is automatic. There is no chance involved at all.
The "Chance" aspect is in upgrading the "item quality" (rare to very rare to ultra rare to epic), which has a fairly low chance of happening on any given upgrade. However, once an item reaches Mk XIV, you can continue to put kits on it, and the quality upgrade chance will keep going up until it hits (and resets to zero), so with enough patience (and kits/dilithium) you can be certain you will (eventually) get your item to epic.
Oh really? I eventually upgraded FIVE sets of shields....4 of which were initially identical in every way.
I meticulously made screenshots/snips during the process(es) of all five processes at each step. I recorded on a word document precisely how many superior tech upgrade "modules" were used, while applying one accelerator to each process. I also recorded the amount of dilithium which was required to fully complete each process.
ALL five sets of shields upgrades required varying numbers of tech modules and dilithium. There was no commonality. Some upgrades made it to 98%, others to 94%, 97% etc., while only one made it to 100% after applying SIX tech upgrade modules. Most never completely advanced to the next highest Mk level and thus required an additional 7th tech module. To all five processes I added one accelerator of the same grade (which were given to us all by Cryptic) The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
Additionally, NONE of the dilithium expenditures were the same, varying as much as 2,000.
I restate, I'm speaking of 4 IDENTICAL types and levels of shields....requiring vastly different numbers of applied superior tech upgrade modules and requisite dilithium. The one set of shields which was slightly different than the other 4 (One Mk level lower, as it were), I am not referencing in what I've just described.
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
Okay, so after taking a look the space section of the chart, this is what it's going to cost me if I want to upgrade just a selection of items on my build for my engineer:
Total to upgrade to Mark XIV just for these: 204,250 dilithium or around 1104 zen. This is about as much as I have saved up to this point combined with all of my characters. Are you seriously saying that you're fine spending this much just to upgrade?
Curious isn't it... People post charts well enough, yet never seem to do the math which is; by definition, implicated in a chart's functionality.
Consider you're speaking of only one ship....not to mention we all have our characters' equipment to think about.
I applaud you that you've chosen to break out your calculator and thus verify what the vast majority are saying. With respect to the dilithium requisites, the upgrade system is a massive hog.
Too, the Tech Upgrade kits/modules themselves; most especially at the "Superior" level...are already expensive on the exchange. Imagine their prices after Delta Rising hits. More to the point, for those whom aren't into crafting; dilithium aside, I too have done the math. For each ship, to be fully upgraded to Mk XIV, will cost in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 million ECs...and that's at current exchange prices.
Additionally, as the entire upgrade system is such a dilithium/ECs sink...; given Mk XIV equipment won't be made available via fleet stores, most; if not all, fleets will see a massive reduction in project(s) contributions. The effects of that are readily apparent and are already being felt by many fleets.
Individuals will surely be unbelievable adversely affected it's true. So too will it be for fleets. (Ever notice how the self-described "elitists" in this game never even once speak of anyone but themselves?)
Ok...RE-READ what I wrote...then, how you've responded.
THEN...you'll understand why I'm wondering how you could have even gone there.
Every Superior Tech upgrade "module" I applied to those 4 sets of shields were identical. So too were the shields themselves.
I deliberately used identical upgrade tech modules on identical shields...and closely documented every step of all four upgrade processes; both on a Word document AND with screenshots/snips.
I did read what you wrote, and I still don't know exactly what you did. You said "identical shields", but you didn't say what shields, what mark, and what modifiers. For each shield, how many TPs did you receive at each step? If you had just posted your screenshots and data, then we would all have a clear idea of what you did. Maybe, the critical successes mentioned by jheinig explain what you saw; maybe not. I can't be sure at this point, because I don't know what you did.
Even so, I demonstrated with the most meticulous precision that varying numbers of tech upgrade modules and dilithium were required to upgrade all four shields in precisely the same way.
You may have demonstrated this to yourself, but we can't verify your claim, because we don't have your data. You made a factual claim, cited your own personal notes as evidence, but neglected to provide us with those notes. No matter how meticulous those notes may be, they can't convince us if we don't have access to them.
Please note that I am not trying to insult you; I am not trying to start an argument; I am trying to understand the upgrade system, as are many other posters in this thread. To understand the system, we require precise details. Part of the problem is that upgrade system itself doesn't provide very many details. For example, I had never heard of this chance to gain extra TPs on critical success before jheinig mentioned it. Most of what we know about the upgrade system comes from data collected by players. If you have new information, then please share.
yeah, this is the law of action-reaction. now nobody got enough dil and ec more, maybe they will buy some zen???
cpryic/pwe does a good job on the income nerf. making everyone poor, but they have also the solution. just buy some zen, hohoho.
if only it worked that way. zen is sold to other players for dil, not to infinite dil supply vendor, so if other players have reduced dil payouts, they can't buy more zen, less zen is sold, and cryptic loses money.
Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the crap out of me.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
if only it worked that way. zen is sold to other players for dil, not to infinite dil supply vendor, so if other players have reduced dil payouts, they can't buy more zen, less zen is sold, and cryptic loses money.
How can you be absolutely sure that all.the entries on the dil exchange are actual players?? Cryptic COULD have their own entries and we would never know. It wouldn't be difficult to have some kind of script that is keeping the dil market afloat and prices high.
Some of the special items are to remain non-upgradeable per Dev responses.
Yes but aside from a very small handful of specific items (TR-116A, Hangars, Triolic Pattern Enhancer, Kits and Kit Modules) they have only made a few generalizations about what items won't get the upgrade treatment. We've had to extrapolate everything else as a guess based upon the patterns in those very vague statements and observations from Tribble (e.g. TR-116A won't upgrade, therefore no preorder items will; Triolic Pattern Enhancer won't upgrade, therefore no personal devices will).
At no point have they given us an exhaustive list of which items are deliberately excluded from the upgrade system.
Additionally flyingtarg made this statement on the first page:
Many of the "level-less" items (The items that use the ∞ symbol) may not be upgradeable until level 60.
but at no point have I seen any user make an observation about any item that they've seen adhering to this statement. (I would also like to add that this is very non-intuitive. Why should some items not be upgradable until 60 when all other items can be upgraded at 50?)
So we're really in the dark about what is "as intended" in this system when it comes to things we currently can't upgrade, and what just hasn't been added to the database of upgradable items as of yet (or to the database of items that are getting the auto-gold treatment like ship consoles; we can guess but we don't know).
We're in a continuing process of adding specialty upgrade information for special case items.
As I see it, there are 3 main categories of 'bugs' with the upgrade system right now. In order of increasing difficulty to fix, and increasing severity:
1. Items that simply cannot be upgraded (lots of specialty mission rewards in this category).
2. Items that have 0 stat changes when they're upgraded (there have been a lot reported in this thread and elsewhere)
3. Items that get worse or have other deleterious effects like losing their unique mods or procs (again, this affects a lot of specialty items, such as [borg] weapons losing their mod)
It's mostly a numbers game, finding every individual item that won't upgrade, or has busted stats or mods or procs, and I wish you well in finding all of them and getting them fixed.
I suspect that there is a bug with how rarity upgrade chance is calculated.
1. I don't believe it's listed anywhere.
2. Pure conjecture: It feels like it's either A) a flat chance every single time (in which case it's probably a low chance like 3% or something) or there is some sort of weighted variable that 'evens out' the number of crits you get relative to how full the TP bar is, so as the TP bar approaches 100% you're more likely to get a crit until your 'crit bucket' reaches some predefined limit and somewhere two lines on a graph touch each other.
3. It seems like a crit only adds TP. (I think they add 1.5x? Maybe that's just the Basics, I dunno.)
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Oh really? I eventually upgraded FIVE sets of shields....4 of which were initially identical in every way.
I meticulously made screenshots/snips during the process(es) of all five processes at each step. I recorded on a word document precisely how many superior tech upgrade "modules" were used, while applying one accelerator to each process. I also recorded the amount of dilithium which was required to fully complete each process.
ALL five sets of shields upgrades required varying numbers of tech modules and dilithium. There was no commonality. Some upgrades made it to 98%, others to 94%, 97% etc., while only one made it to 100% after applying SIX tech upgrade modules. Most never completely advanced to the next highest Mk level and thus required an additional 7th tech module. To all five processes I added one accelerator of the same grade (which were given to us all by Cryptic) The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
Additionally, NONE of the dilithium expenditures were the same, varying as much as 2,000.
I restate, I'm speaking of 4 IDENTICAL types and levels of shields....requiring vastly different numbers of applied superior tech upgrade modules and requisite dilithium. The one set of shields which was slightly different than the other 4 (One Mk level lower, as it were), I am not referencing in what I've just described.
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
First of all, the post of mine you are quoting is not responding to your "research", it's from much earlier in the thread.
Second, you are misunderstanding your research. The variability in costs you are seeing is due to getting occasional crits which multiply the tech points added by a given kit by 1.5 or 2 times. Thus, if you look at the Tech points needed for an upgrade (listed under the item) and divide by 12,800 (the tech points per Superior Kit), you will arrive at the maximum number of kits you need (and thus the maximum dilithium cost for that upgrade). Depending on how many crits you get, that number may go down in practice, but it will never go up. You do not, as you suggest, need to worry that somehow the cost is going to be higher than expected, unless you go into the upgrade "expecting" to get a specific number of crits (which is a silly thing to do).
To your other post about how people aren't doing the math on the total cost of the system - the numbers in the post you quoted represent about 1 month of dilithium for one character - and are significantly less than what getting high-end (fleet or reputation) Mk XII gear costs to begin with, so, yes, I have done the math. The costs only look high to people who expect to get everything to Mk XIV on Oct. 14th - and even then I maintain they aren't bad if you have spent some time before hand gathering resources. If your contention is that players shouldn't be forced to either "grind" for resources or buy them with real money, I have to wonder what, exactly, you think SHOULD happen?
First of all, the post of mine you are quoting is not responding to your "research", it's from much earlier in the thread.
Second, you are misunderstanding your research. The variability in costs you are seeing is due to getting occasional crits which multiply the tech points added by a given kit by 1.5 or 2 times. Thus, if you look at the Tech points needed for an upgrade (listed under the item) and divide by 12,800 (the tech points per Superior Kit), you will arrive at the maximum number of kits you need (and thus the maximum dilithium cost for that upgrade). Depending on how many crits you get, that number may go down in practice, but it will never go up. You do not, as you suggest, need to worry that somehow the cost is going to be higher than expected, unless you go into the upgrade "expecting" to get a specific number of crits (which is a silly thing to do).
To your other post about how people aren't doing the math on the total cost of the system - the numbers in the post you quoted represent about 1 month of dilithium for one character - and are significantly less than what getting high-end (fleet or reputation) Mk XII gear costs to begin with, so, yes, I have done the math. The costs only look high to people who expect to get everything to Mk XIV on Oct. 14th - and even then I maintain they aren't bad if you have spent some time before hand gathering resources. If your contention is that players shouldn't be forced to either "grind" for resources or buy them with real money, I have to wonder what, exactly, you think SHOULD happen?
You are right about the crits. That's a nice feature. However, we DO NOT expect to have Mk XIV gear upon the drop of x2. If you bothered to read, you would know this. Our complaints have been over the resource sink if you DON'T press finish now. If what you said were true, we would be complaining about the price including the finish now price. But we aren't. And you say you've done the math, but from as far as I can tell, you've only done the math out to the point where it is no longer convenient. Another point wolf made was that we would HAVE to grind in crafting or HAVE to pay exorbitant amounts of EC in addition to the dilithium. This is an unfair situation if, like some, don't want to bother with crafting. Another point he made is the fact that due to the dil/EC sink, fleets will, most likely, slow down significantly in development. Sure, the fleet could work together to upgrade as fast as possible but that only proves effective with well developed fleets. Not all fleets are that way. Not mention those who are even too stubborn to join a fleet at all.
Facts aside, answer me this. Why should we have to grind again, and again, and again, and again or pay again, and again, and again, and again, to get to feeling content with our character(s) being exactly where they were?
How can you be absolutely sure that all.the entries on the dil exchange are actual players?? Cryptic COULD have their own entries and we would never know. It wouldn't be difficult to have some kind of script that is keeping the dil market afloat and prices high.
i dunno why would cryptic even want to keep the dil prices high though. the higher the price, the larger the dil payoff for one zen, the less zen they sell.
if someone wants 1 million dil and exchange is at 150 dil, he'll need to sell 6667 zen on exchange. if exchange is at 200 dil, he only needs to sell 5000 zen, so cryptic loses that 1667 zen he could buy from them.
that's over $160 loss for cryptic, and that's just from one person. multiply that by hundreds of people who buy zen to sell on exchange, and you see losses in hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the crap out of me.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
How can you be absolutely sure that all.the entries on the dil exchange are actual players?? Cryptic COULD have their own entries and we would never know. It wouldn't be difficult to have some kind of script that is keeping the dil market afloat and prices high.
if you watch the "market" for even an hour its obvious its manipulated. Now whether its cryptic - which a lot of us suspect - or just a handful of players gaming the market we cant say.
What I can say is that Supply and Demand play zero part in the exchange. Its a completely fictitious "market".
Comments
So it's a blind investment?..... Great. I'm with you 100%
Identical items should not require varying amounts of resources to upgrade by one mark. If that's what you're seeing, then please file a bug report.
One explanation for what you're seeing could be that you're receiving rarity upgrades at different marks. For example, suppose you upgrade two identical items from Mk I common to Mk XIV epic, but for the first item, you receive an upgrade from common to uncommon at Mk III, and for the second, you receive an upgrade from common to uncomon at Mk IV. Then, starting from Mk III, your upgrade costs will be different, because an uncommon item costs more to upgrade than a common item.
Where is this chance for critical success shown? What does the chance depend on? Does a critical success add anything else besides TP?
Also, please take a look at this post:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19491751&postcount=662
I suspect that there is a bug with how rarity upgrade chance is calculated.
Are you addressing the quality penalty on a crit? Pretty please with whipped cream on top? :]
Just to put the Dev quote about this in context - you are right, you can't truly know how many superior kits it will take to get a Mk upgrade, because it might take LESS than you anticipated. It can never take more than what was in the spreadsheet referenced above, because those assume you get no crits at all. Plan for those numbers - if you get lucky with some crits, the worst that happens is you save a little bit of extra dilithium, and you have a superior kit or two to (re?)sell on the exchange.
You can take an educated guess however, and if you get lucky for whatever reason then that's great, however at the end of the day we know what the most likely result is and therefore that's where the figures should start from.
Yes, the figures should start with what it costs if you don't get lucky. Those costs (for Mk upgrades specifically) are already low, and you might even pay LESS, so the randomness for the Mk upgrades (not rarity upgrades) is entirely in the player's favor.
In other words, it's not something to complain about.
see that's the "hidden" cost people aren't taking into account. It might cost you 1K to upgrade but it took time and resources to get the modules.
So depending on where you are at with which "skill tree" it could take you months before you can even craft these.
Only people who are spending vast amounts of dilith to level will be there before next year.
So those 6 modules you needed take 12 ULTRA rare materials and 6 very rare and 90K EC. and that's for one item. You'll need a lot of Ultra Rare materials. Now these could drop like LBs and be a dime a dozen or a lot of grinding and then only in certain missions/content. We don't really know at this point. But chances are these items will be wildly over priced on the exchange, at least for the first 9 months or so.
As with most crafting in most games there will always be more profit in selling mats to "crafters" than there is in selling actual items.
What I am faced with is that when the system was first released I had no intention of crafting anything in shields, engineering etc. So I never bothered with those trees. So now I am starting all those from scratch. So maybe in 4-6 months I might be able to upgrade on my own --- if I have also grinded enough mats in that time.
.... That statement is far from the truth and everyone knows it. You are right, simple as that.
Well, I would complain that the crit chance isn't shown in the UI (as far as I can tell). I don't like hidden mechanics.
Switching topics, can we get the ability to slot multiple techs at the same time? That would reduce the amount of clicking needed.
[Polarized Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI]
Fix it please!
Yet the cost will add up for multiple items, especially upgrading your ship and ground gear, not to mention if you choose to do the bridge officers or not.
Granted mark upgrades are at least half okay but they still need tuning down a bit, a single smaller payment on the actual upgrade would make a lot more sense.
The real concern in this thread has always been the quality upgrades, don't mistake that.
it's good for me, it makes it easier for me to get the fleet credits faster.
yeah, this is the law of action-reaction. now nobody got enough dil and ec more, maybe they will buy some zen???
cpryic/pwe does a good job on the income nerf. making everyone poor, but they have also the solution. just buy some zen, hohoho. Ask that guy who has hit the ship slots cap and the alts cap and who has all the gear, how does he feel now? paying billions of dilithium to upgrade his stuff again to endlevel? nononononono, only a non intelligent person would do this.
they make all your already paid gear obsolete and let you pay again for the very same gear. i bet they are laughing at us and thinking most of us are stupid cashcows.
As a leader in two fleets in STO, the minute the senior officers and myself heard about the upgrade system, the level cap increase and the T6 ships being rolled out. We immediately sent out fleet wide mails advising people to hold on to their dilithium and zen. Also we advised people to hold off purchasing any current t5/5.5 ships until we had more information. Whilst our fed fleet is T5, our KDF one is stuck in limbo between T4 & 5, which is perfectly understandable. Considering the numbers and constant contradictions with what this upgrade is going to cost players.
Ok...RE-READ what I wrote...then, how you've responded.
THEN...you'll understand why I'm wondering how you could have even gone there.
Every Superior Tech upgrade "module" I applied to those 4 sets of shields were identical. So too were the shields themselves.
I deliberately used identical upgrade tech modules on identical shields...and closely documented every step of all four upgrade processes; both on a Word document AND with screenshots/snips.
Even so, I demonstrated with the most meticulous precision that varying numbers of tech upgrade modules and dilithium were required to upgrade all four shields in precisely the same way.
In my initial writeup I was very clear about this.
My intent; basically was research...cautiously, careful made. I wanted to learn yet another of Cryptic's intents and uncover the possible bugs I had been told existed, as regards this nightmarish upgrade system. I posted the comment as a warning to everyone, that they should always be fully prepared to have more tech upgrade modules and more dilithium than they expect they'll be needing.
My reasoning is simple, I had heard a few others stopped the process; mid-upgrade as it were, because they didn't have enough tech upgrade modules/and/or dilithium...had to acquire more of each before resuming the process. When they returned to complete the upgrade process they discovered the item being upgraded have been deleted.
System bug? Probably...who knows? My singular intent was to get people to see they should be completely prepared for the unexpected...by having more tech modules and dilithium than they "expect" they wil need, prior to initiating the upgrade process.
Oh really? I eventually upgraded FIVE sets of shields....4 of which were initially identical in every way.
I meticulously made screenshots/snips during the process(es) of all five processes at each step. I recorded on a word document precisely how many superior tech upgrade "modules" were used, while applying one accelerator to each process. I also recorded the amount of dilithium which was required to fully complete each process.
ALL five sets of shields upgrades required varying numbers of tech modules and dilithium. There was no commonality. Some upgrades made it to 98%, others to 94%, 97% etc., while only one made it to 100% after applying SIX tech upgrade modules. Most never completely advanced to the next highest Mk level and thus required an additional 7th tech module. To all five processes I added one accelerator of the same grade (which were given to us all by Cryptic) The tech modules themselves were all of "superior" grade.
Additionally, NONE of the dilithium expenditures were the same, varying as much as 2,000.
I restate, I'm speaking of 4 IDENTICAL types and levels of shields....requiring vastly different numbers of applied superior tech upgrade modules and requisite dilithium. The one set of shields which was slightly different than the other 4 (One Mk level lower, as it were), I am not referencing in what I've just described.
As I previously, accurately stated....there's no way of truly knowing how many superior tech upgrade modules OR dilithium will be required to fully compete an upgrade.
Curious isn't it... People post charts well enough, yet never seem to do the math which is; by definition, implicated in a chart's functionality.
Consider you're speaking of only one ship....not to mention we all have our characters' equipment to think about.
I applaud you that you've chosen to break out your calculator and thus verify what the vast majority are saying. With respect to the dilithium requisites, the upgrade system is a massive hog.
Too, the Tech Upgrade kits/modules themselves; most especially at the "Superior" level...are already expensive on the exchange. Imagine their prices after Delta Rising hits. More to the point, for those whom aren't into crafting; dilithium aside, I too have done the math. For each ship, to be fully upgraded to Mk XIV, will cost in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 million ECs...and that's at current exchange prices.
Additionally, as the entire upgrade system is such a dilithium/ECs sink...; given Mk XIV equipment won't be made available via fleet stores, most; if not all, fleets will see a massive reduction in project(s) contributions. The effects of that are readily apparent and are already being felt by many fleets.
Individuals will surely be unbelievable adversely affected it's true. So too will it be for fleets. (Ever notice how the self-described "elitists" in this game never even once speak of anyone but themselves?)
I did read what you wrote, and I still don't know exactly what you did. You said "identical shields", but you didn't say what shields, what mark, and what modifiers. For each shield, how many TPs did you receive at each step? If you had just posted your screenshots and data, then we would all have a clear idea of what you did. Maybe, the critical successes mentioned by jheinig explain what you saw; maybe not. I can't be sure at this point, because I don't know what you did.
You may have demonstrated this to yourself, but we can't verify your claim, because we don't have your data. You made a factual claim, cited your own personal notes as evidence, but neglected to provide us with those notes. No matter how meticulous those notes may be, they can't convince us if we don't have access to them.
Please note that I am not trying to insult you; I am not trying to start an argument; I am trying to understand the upgrade system, as are many other posters in this thread. To understand the system, we require precise details. Part of the problem is that upgrade system itself doesn't provide very many details. For example, I had never heard of this chance to gain extra TPs on critical success before jheinig mentioned it. Most of what we know about the upgrade system comes from data collected by players. If you have new information, then please share.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
How can you be absolutely sure that all.the entries on the dil exchange are actual players?? Cryptic COULD have their own entries and we would never know. It wouldn't be difficult to have some kind of script that is keeping the dil market afloat and prices high.
Yes but aside from a very small handful of specific items (TR-116A, Hangars, Triolic Pattern Enhancer, Kits and Kit Modules) they have only made a few generalizations about what items won't get the upgrade treatment. We've had to extrapolate everything else as a guess based upon the patterns in those very vague statements and observations from Tribble (e.g. TR-116A won't upgrade, therefore no preorder items will; Triolic Pattern Enhancer won't upgrade, therefore no personal devices will).
At no point have they given us an exhaustive list of which items are deliberately excluded from the upgrade system.
Additionally flyingtarg made this statement on the first page: but at no point have I seen any user make an observation about any item that they've seen adhering to this statement. (I would also like to add that this is very non-intuitive. Why should some items not be upgradable until 60 when all other items can be upgraded at 50?)
So we're really in the dark about what is "as intended" in this system when it comes to things we currently can't upgrade, and what just hasn't been added to the database of upgradable items as of yet (or to the database of items that are getting the auto-gold treatment like ship consoles; we can guess but we don't know).
As I see it, there are 3 main categories of 'bugs' with the upgrade system right now. In order of increasing difficulty to fix, and increasing severity:
1. Items that simply cannot be upgraded (lots of specialty mission rewards in this category).
2. Items that have 0 stat changes when they're upgraded (there have been a lot reported in this thread and elsewhere)
3. Items that get worse or have other deleterious effects like losing their unique mods or procs (again, this affects a lot of specialty items, such as [borg] weapons losing their mod)
It's mostly a numbers game, finding every individual item that won't upgrade, or has busted stats or mods or procs, and I wish you well in finding all of them and getting them fixed.
1. I don't believe it's listed anywhere.
2. Pure conjecture: It feels like it's either A) a flat chance every single time (in which case it's probably a low chance like 3% or something) or
3. It seems like a crit only adds TP. (I think they add 1.5x? Maybe that's just the Basics, I dunno.)
Joined January 2009
First of all, the post of mine you are quoting is not responding to your "research", it's from much earlier in the thread.
Second, you are misunderstanding your research. The variability in costs you are seeing is due to getting occasional crits which multiply the tech points added by a given kit by 1.5 or 2 times. Thus, if you look at the Tech points needed for an upgrade (listed under the item) and divide by 12,800 (the tech points per Superior Kit), you will arrive at the maximum number of kits you need (and thus the maximum dilithium cost for that upgrade). Depending on how many crits you get, that number may go down in practice, but it will never go up. You do not, as you suggest, need to worry that somehow the cost is going to be higher than expected, unless you go into the upgrade "expecting" to get a specific number of crits (which is a silly thing to do).
To your other post about how people aren't doing the math on the total cost of the system - the numbers in the post you quoted represent about 1 month of dilithium for one character - and are significantly less than what getting high-end (fleet or reputation) Mk XII gear costs to begin with, so, yes, I have done the math. The costs only look high to people who expect to get everything to Mk XIV on Oct. 14th - and even then I maintain they aren't bad if you have spent some time before hand gathering resources. If your contention is that players shouldn't be forced to either "grind" for resources or buy them with real money, I have to wonder what, exactly, you think SHOULD happen?
You are right about the crits. That's a nice feature. However, we DO NOT expect to have Mk XIV gear upon the drop of x2. If you bothered to read, you would know this. Our complaints have been over the resource sink if you DON'T press finish now. If what you said were true, we would be complaining about the price including the finish now price. But we aren't. And you say you've done the math, but from as far as I can tell, you've only done the math out to the point where it is no longer convenient. Another point wolf made was that we would HAVE to grind in crafting or HAVE to pay exorbitant amounts of EC in addition to the dilithium. This is an unfair situation if, like some, don't want to bother with crafting. Another point he made is the fact that due to the dil/EC sink, fleets will, most likely, slow down significantly in development. Sure, the fleet could work together to upgrade as fast as possible but that only proves effective with well developed fleets. Not all fleets are that way. Not mention those who are even too stubborn to join a fleet at all.
Facts aside, answer me this. Why should we have to grind again, and again, and again, and again or pay again, and again, and again, and again, to get to feeling content with our character(s) being exactly where they were?
if someone wants 1 million dil and exchange is at 150 dil, he'll need to sell 6667 zen on exchange. if exchange is at 200 dil, he only needs to sell 5000 zen, so cryptic loses that 1667 zen he could buy from them.
that's over $160 loss for cryptic, and that's just from one person. multiply that by hundreds of people who buy zen to sell on exchange, and you see losses in hundreds of thousands of dollars.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
if you watch the "market" for even an hour its obvious its manipulated. Now whether its cryptic - which a lot of us suspect - or just a handful of players gaming the market we cant say.
What I can say is that Supply and Demand play zero part in the exchange. Its a completely fictitious "market".