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Design Consultant: Shoring up the Fleet Tier 5U and Fleet Tier 6 gap
leviathan99
Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
Leah Brahms was a Starship design consultant in the construction of the Enterprise-D and we have a number of canon characters (Geordi, Sisko, the characters from "Eye of the Beholder", Archer's father) who played this role.
Many on the forums are wary of Tier 5U ships being left behind.
My idea would be to have a bridge officer specialist, similar to intelligence officers, who have some powers that can ONLY be used on retrofitted/upgraded ships like Tier 5U. These would be Retrofit Design Consultants, possibly, and would make the difference between Fleet Tier 5U and Tier 6 more apples and oranges rather than a clear case of one being superior.
My take to make up for the different number of bridge officer powers between 5U and 6 would be to make a Retrofit Design Consultant's Commander level ability deliberately overpowered (magnitude, short cooldown, etc.) in order to be effectively as powerful as two Intelligence bridge officer abilities.
Since it's only the commander abilities that would be QUITE this OP, it should just bring 5U up to par rather than create any otherwise substantially meaningful imbalance.
Many on the forums are wary of Tier 5U ships being left behind.
My idea would be to have a bridge officer specialist, similar to intelligence officers, who have some powers that can ONLY be used on retrofitted/upgraded ships like Tier 5U. These would be Retrofit Design Consultants, possibly, and would make the difference between Fleet Tier 5U and Tier 6 more apples and oranges rather than a clear case of one being superior.
My take to make up for the different number of bridge officer powers between 5U and 6 would be to make a Retrofit Design Consultant's Commander level ability deliberately overpowered (magnitude, short cooldown, etc.) in order to be effectively as powerful as two Intelligence bridge officer abilities.
Since it's only the commander abilities that would be QUITE this OP, it should just bring 5U up to par rather than create any otherwise substantially meaningful imbalance.
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There should be no difference between Fleet Tier 5 and Fleet Tier 6 ships. So +10% shield, +10% hull, and +1 console. Fleet T5-U Ships get 11 consoles and Fleet Tier 6 ships should get 11 consoles as well. Although, I doubt that Fleet Tier 6 ships will be a concern until Expansion 2.5 or Season 10.
My impression is that Fleet T6 is expected by year's end or maybe Q1 2015. They're already building/planning them and they're, I believe, supposed to be in the first big patch following DR.
Its not so much a minmaxing issue, though that may be the case for some, as the fact that... It'll make casual PvP a lot harder for anyone who doesn't have 125$ lying around. And that's the price on sale...
That is what Expansion 2.5 is. The next big patch between Delta Rising and Season 10.
Thing is, well, the same holds true for pretty much everything in the game. Lots of folks are quick to point fingers and laugh at some other group playing a broken part of the game, but if they were to take a moment to look around at what they're doing...so yeah, oh well, it's Star Trek - muddle on through and plod ahead.
You can get casual or you can get PvP, you can't have both in STO
I would assume so, but frankly, they should have lead with those designs rather than weird new ones.
Remember what the first three C-Store ships were? The first three ships that required level 50? They were the Defiant, Galaxy, and Intrepid. Those, along with the D'deridex and Negh'var, should have been 5 of the first to get T6 versions, as well. Give all of their models the same facelift the Intrepid got (except the D'D which doesn't need it) and give them boff layouts that reflect modern game meta. Then add in three Intel ships- one for each faction- and Cryptic could have launched DR with eight ships that not a single person would have complained about.
Um, people complain all the time about the grind from PvE.
Folks complain both that the PvE content is too easy and too hard at the same time.
People complain that the story content is repeatable but not replayable because it's repetitive.
People complain about the duration of some PvE queues to other queues.
People complain...about...everything.
To them, all sorts of things are broken in the game.
PvP is no more broken than anything else in the game and less broken than most things. Most of the things broken in PvP are not limited to being broken in PvP and are broken elsewhere - usually in areas where they're being broken is far more of an issue than them being broken in PvP.
But oh well, it's Star Trek...we plod ahead and muddle on through.
The game has fundamental design problems in general. Ask skollulfr - guy can list them all better than I can, I always forget a bunch. People tend to see what they want to see - step back - take a breath...and...look.
But it's Star Trek...Cryptic's got us by the Tribbles and they know it.
Except that that price is for the whole pack. If you buy individual ships the prices will be nowhere near that much.
Also, the more T6 and Fleet T6 ships that are released, the more irrelevant T5/T5U/Fleet T5U will be as it will become "just another tier" like 1 through 4,... as it should be ultimately.
The only reason it's an issue now, is that there aren't going to be enough ships released with DR to satisfy everyone. THe rest of the ships will come in time. As they always do.
And as someone noted above, since you can and will be able to complete virtually all content in the game with a T5, the "need" for T6 is more perceptual than real, and most people, well a lot anyway, get a little carried away and starting imitating chicken little.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Certain level 60 content will be harder to do with a Tier 5 ship like the new Elite mode and whatever replaces No Win Scenario. If I can do that content with a Tier 5 ship with Mk X common equipment, then it is not Elite content.
Of course assuming that T5-U not getting a new bridge officer type is an arbitary marketing ploy on cryptics part and nothing at all to do with the scale of retroactively adding a new Boff type (whose abilities can be used across all three professions) to ALL ships in this game.
Look if they didn't want to drastically rebalance the entirety of ship building and space combat in this case (as opposed to space combat as it applies to eight new starships with restricted intel seating) they're not going to go for this (especially if its only to compensate for the imaginining [to call it anything more simply wouldn't be right] that T5U is getting left behind.)
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Why did we even bother with creating Retrofits of Tier 4 ships, I have to wonder, consiering they could have been used for all end-game content anyway so there was no need for canon ships to be endgame level ships.
^^This is a good point. I'd say it won the arrgument. But what do I know. I'm just a fan of TOS and TNG Trek. :P
[/SIGPIC]
- PLAYERS AND THEIR SHIPS - MORE THAN JUST AN INVESTMENT
Across a single tier of ships, many of the differences between ships come from either aesthetic presentation or the character of the ship (usually through special weapons or universal consoles that are tied to the ship). This means that much of the time a player is deciding which ship to play based on some kind of attachment to a particular ship, be it part of the story of the ship, the look and feel of the ship, or the bond they have formed with a ship from flying it for upwards of 4 years. For many players, being able to get access to these ships is a very big part of their in-game experience, they have waited for ships from different factions or different parts of the Star Trek canon to be released, and now many of these ships that players waited for and celebrated their release will now be obsolete. PWE claims to not want to devalue the time and money that players have invested into their current Tier 5 ships, and thus proposes these upgrade options as a solution, however, these upgrades don't solve the problem that PWE is trying to fix. The only way to not devalue Tier 5 ships is to prevent them from being obsolete, charging a fee and calling them Tier 5-U does not accomplish that goal. Yes, the upgrade to a Tier 5-U does provide access to some important benefits, namely an additional console slot and scaling ship hit points, but all that does is make them <less> obsolete than if the upgrade option were not available. By no means does it actually put Tier 5 ships on par with Tier 6 ships.
- "BELLS AND WHISTLES" VS. SIGNFICANT CHANGES
In the developer's notes, they say that Tier 5-U ships will be like Tier 6, minus "a few Bells and Whistles." Generally when we speak of Bells and Whistles, we think of things that are not of material value, maybe aesthetic changes, or quirky functions, that don't necessarily affect the ships ability to function. This would include things like additional ship materials, different ship registries and alternative costume options. Instead, PWE refers to include an additional bridge officer ability, a starship trait, a 5th level of ship mastery, and on some ships, the ability to slot specialist bridge officers. These are hardly Bells and Whistles, these are changes that make Tier 5 (and Tier 5-U) ships unable to compete with Tier 6 ships.
- TIER 5-U DOESN'T ADD ENOUGH VALUE TO MATCH WHAT PLAYERS ARE MISSING OUT ON
Even though some of those additions may seem innocuous, they are far from it. One of the most noticeable differences between Tier 5-U ships and Tier 6 ships is the additional bridge officer ability. These abilities come in the form of Lieutenant Commander abilities, which are some of the strongest, most impactful abilities in the game. Some of the strongest offensive and defensive abilities are in the Lt. Commander slot, including the level 3 Sci/Tac/Eng Team abilities, Attack Pattern Omega 1, Gravity Well 1 and so on. Additional access to these abilities can make or break a ships performance, especially when they are used over the duration of a PvE or PvP event, and are certainly enough to push Tier 6 ships to be the only ships that are competitive in PvP environments. These abilities are far more powerful than built in abilities that are tacked on to some ships, like the subsystems targeting abilities on some cruisers and science ships, or even the recently released cruiser commands. But furthermore, now there will be Tier 6 ships available that have the built in abilities in addition to the bonus Lt. Commander ability, which continues to outclass anything that a Tier 5-U ship can offer.
When it comes to starship skills, ship mastery, and specialist bridge officer slots, we only have an initial picture from the development blogs of their impact, but they are certainly far from "Bells and Whistles." The starship traits that have been released so far include damage resistance buffs, bridge officer recharge buffs, and exotic particle damage buffs, all of which stack on an incredibly regular basis. These are not the kinds of immaterial changes that would be referred to as "Bells and Whistles," but rather these starship traits drastically affect strategic choices when deciding on a build, and increase the effectiveness of the ship by a great deal. Additionally, the intel abilities give a hearty edge to the Tier 6 Intel ships, and further push Tier 5-U ships out of the realm of playability during PvP events. Given the damage and damage resistance buffs granted by the intel abilities, there would be no way for a Tier 5-U ship to be competitive against a Tier 6 ship in PvP, and it is all but guaranteed that a Tier 6 ship would significantly outperform a Tier 5-U in any PvE event.
- SOLUTIONS
Tier 5-U ships are not the solution here, all that does is make the disparity between Tier 5 and Tier 6 ships smaller, it certainly does not make Tier 5 ships competitive with Tier 6 ones. Previous solutions in the game have been more expensive, but have allowed players to play with the ships that they are attached to, and that is the release of "retrofit" and fleet versions of lower tiered ships that are legitimate Tier 5 ships. Release Tier 6 retrofits, possibly as advanced retrofit versions, of existing Tier 5 ships is the only answer that allows for older ships to be truly competitive amongst the newest echelons of ships. Yes, it is probably more expensive, but at the same time allows players to continue to play the ships they love, while also creating a new tier of ships. This could be accomplished by releasing new versions in the Zen and Lobi stores of Tier 6 versions of existing ships, and could even be offered at a discount for players that have a current version of the ship, or by offering Tier 6 upgrade modules, similar to way people currently get top-tier versions of T5 Ships via Fleet Ships . This would also prevent the new ships from being heavily devalued as the excitement over new ships is always already high among the player base (as long as they don't feel that these new ships are the only way to be competitive).
- EXPENSIVE DIGITAL PAPERWEIGHTS
When it comes down to it, Tier 5-U ships aren't a compromise, they are still unfortunately going to be unplayable for players who expect to be able to compete with each other. The problem with Tier 5-U ships is that they will be too much of a downgrade from the new Tier 6 ships. Right now ships like the Mirror Universe ships that come out of the lock box system are technically Tier 5, they are certainly not competitive with the ships at the highest level of Tier 5 (like the Lobi store ships, Zen store ships, or even ships from the Summer and Winter Events). Currently players can choose to compromise and use a Mirror Universe ship because they're cheaper, but players should not have to compromise when it comes to the entire fleet of ships released in the past 4 years. Sure, you'll be able to complete a PvE queue or a storyline mission with a Tier 5-U ship, but you'll be doing so at a noticeable handicap to anyone doing the same in a Tier 6 ship. PvP and high level PvE queues (like No-Win Scenario) may be physically accessible with a Tier 5-U ship, but don't expect to win. Right now I don't show up to PvP with a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort (for obvious reasons) and come October, even showing up in a bug ship will be a losing proposition. With the release of Tier 6 ships, everything we've worked on for the past 4 years will be expensive digital paperweights, holding space in our ship inventory for nostalgia purposes only, which doesn't seem like a solid solution for people who have spent a great amount of time and money securing their favorite ships. Releasing Tier 6 retrofits of current Tier 5 ships is truly the only way to ensure that these ships will remain competitive at level 60, hopefully PWE figures that out and offers us better options.
I know I'm not alone in the group of players that really cares about their ship and hopes that a solution is offered to help preserve the ships that we collectively have spent a lot of time obtaining. Thanks for reading, I hope we can continue the conversation about ways to best address this issue given its effect on a great number of players.
this is where they need to ensure that only T5 ships match against T5 ships only T5u against T5u ect when playing PvP with some sort of matchmaker system, then you will be sure everyone has simmilar advantages.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
NO
"Because we want you to buy the new ships".
There is a reason there are zero new animations to anything but t6 boffs on a t6 ship.
You are not even allowed to buy a t6 ship and then use him/her on your old ship even if you pay for it, hilarious.
And if people don't reject this idea going forward they going to make it worse
Ship specific boff abilities no thanks.
T5u is so half the server didn't ragequit but decided to whip people back by charging $$$ per ship or even ignoring ships.
I don't agree with any of it even remotely this is all april 1st to me
you just have to look around for officers already serving in starfleet that come up with new ship upgrades that could be crucial to have them on the ship because if its an engineering overhaul of the support and power systems, then this officer is far better off in engineering working besides the chief engineer. but consultants should be a limited time thing before that one special trait should be passed along to others and then their experience wont help them on that ship any longer.
thinking it through like that. i cant see the reason for this design consultant position.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
This makes no sense at all.
What we know of the intel powers so far is that they are incredibly lame.
Almost as lame as the ships they come on.
So, knowing this you propose that an officer who's job is retrofitting ships will leave his workplace at the place where is retrofitting ships to join your crew to pull out combat relevant magic abilities when you ask him too.
I see no issues at all with this proposal of yours. This is clearly a well thought out and completely logical suggestion.
My Jemmy dread will obviously need this powerful magic officer, because after it sits at a potential 100k hitpoints with a per second hull regen of around 2000 pre boff power and god knows how much shields after putting in those particle exiters in the now 3 science slots it will desperately need this magical man.
I prostrate myself before your genius and ask only to be allowed to bath in its ever shining light.
*bows*