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Headcanon: Starfleet Intelligence

alexmakepeacealexmakepeace Member Posts: 10,633 Arc User
I saw a bunch of people in another thread freaking out about the new (unconfirmed) intelligence boffs with Delta Rising--how their sneaky nature was contrary to the Federation's mission, etc. I view SFI rather differently, so I decided to write on my headcanon for them. Everything below is my own interpretation, not necessarily accurate, and subject to change as more details are released.

SFI in my headcanon shares attributes with the real-world CIA, as well as Fleet Intelligence from the game Homeworld.
SFI's Purpose is to ensure that accurate, relevant, and timely information is made available to Starfleet commanding officers including the admiralty, ship and base commanders, and various kinds of squad leaders.

To this end, SFI has three main functions:
1. To gather and synthesize information from disparate sources
2. To analyze that information
3. To offer potential courses of action to commanding officers

An SFI officers first duty is to gather and interpret information. They receive some training in the tactical, engineering, science, and medical fields, but their main focus is on working with specialists in those fields to gather and interpret data, with the specialists providing in-depth knowledge of their respective fields and the SFI officer compiling that knowledge into a cohesive whole.

For example, when encountering an unidentified ship, the SFI officer may consult with the chief engineer to identify strengths and weaknesses of that ship, along with gathering clues about the nature of the race piloting it based on the specific design of the ship; the science officer to determine the nature of materials and technologies the ship possesses; and the tactical officer to analyze the weapons, defensive systems, and tactics of the unknown ship, estimate potential effectiveness of his own ship's weapons and defenses against it, and create possible battle plans. The SFI officer would then present this information concisely to the commanding officer, along with interpretations of the character and intent of the unknown ship's crew based on its communications, behavior, and the insight of the specialists listed above. SFI officers do not make recommendations to their commanding officers--they simply provide options and information.

SFI officers are highly skilled in interpreting the nature and intentions of known and unknown individuals and races based on indirect information such as ship design, language construct, and how the individuals behave.

SFI officers are also trained, to one degree or another, in infiltration and surveillance. They can analyze maps and scans to locate or guess the location of important facilities, and in some cases lead infiltration missions into hostile ships or facilities. This is the training with which SFI is most strongly associated in the public mind, but it is not their main method of operation.

SFI officers are responsible for in-depth interrogation of captured hostiles. Torture is both ineffective and banned under Federation law, but SFI officers have a large suite of psychological tricks for the extraction of information. One simple example is the "good cop, bad cop" method used by law enforcement agencies.

SFI is distinct from Section 31, though it is aware of the latter's existence at the upper levels. SFI is an official, unclassified branch of Starfleet with the mission listed above. It is trained in and capable of engaging in espionage, counterespionage, and sabotage as it is commanded to by Starfleet Command, but it is still beholden to Federation law. That being said, the high security nature of SFI's upper levels makes abuse of SFI possible, though not common.

Section 31, in contrast, is a shadow organization which operates outside Federation law and is not officially acknowledged by the Federation government. Of those SFI agents who are aware of the existence of Section 31, most dislike the organization due to is unsavory nature, the shadow of suspicion it casts on SFI, or both. Section 31 agents likely operate within SFI, but being an SFI agent does not make someone Section 31. SFI may have operatives inside Section 31 keeping tabs on it.

The division color for SFI is light grey/silver, and not the canon black because black division piping on a black uniform looks dark, boring, and clashes with the other division colors.

tl;dr: In my headcanon, Starfleet Intelligence does do all the "spy stuff," but it must obey Federation law and is not the same as Section 31. Its main job is not spy stuff, but gathering and providing information to commanding officers.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    Agreed. Starfleet Intelligence is pretty much the CIA, or ONI in Halo.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Agreed. Starfleet Intelligence is pretty much the CIA, or ONI in Halo.

    I like to think of them as the CIA, but with fewer weirdos and nutjobs.
  • thomaselkinsthomaselkins Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I think some people have a really naive interpretation of the Star Trek Universe. I get that it's supposed to be this peaceful, almost uptopian future and humans have risen above where we are now, but it's dumb to assume that we wouldn't have a military or covert intelligence organization. Humans can get along with humans pretty well but with aggressive species like the Klingons, Borg and Dominion, it would be incredibly stupid not to take the necessary measures to protect yourself.

    I don't have a problem with cloaking devices used by Starfleet because we've seen them being used by Federation Starships in this basic time period. Even if Starfleet said they would honor the Treaty of Algeron, it only applies to the Romulan Star Empire. With Sela's disappearance and Hakeev's death, it would seem that the Romulan Empire would be replaced with the Romulan Republic, which the Treaty of Algeron doesn't apply. Like the above video where the Klingon's had conquered the Romulans and therefor the Star Empire didn't exist, some Starfleet vessels had cloaks. The same applies here for STO in 2409.
  • djxprimedjxprime Member Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Agreed. Starfleet Intelligence is pretty much the CIA, or ONI in Halo.

    A little bit of trivia: The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) is one of the oldest members of the intelligence gathering community in the U.S.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    Well... I only know of ONI via Halo so... *shrug*
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I don't have a problem with cloaking devices used by Starfleet because we've seen them being used by Federation Starships in this basic time period. Even if Starfleet said they would honor the Treaty of Algeron, it only applies to the Romulan Star Empire. With Sela's disappearance and Hakeev's death, it would seem that the Romulan Empire would be replaced with the Romulan Republic, which the Treaty of Algeron doesn't apply. Like the above video where the Klingon's had conquered the Romulans and therefor the Star Empire didn't exist, some Starfleet vessels had cloaks. The same applies here for STO in 2409.

    There's also the point of Star Trek Insurrection. The federation was participating in a operation which frequently made use of stealth/cloaking technology. Even if the Sona donated all of it, even the duckblind (which was VERY much in keeping with Starfleet practices and ethics) Starfleet's use of it would have made the other powers quite angsty if that was at all an issue for that period.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    However... I think at the time the holoship's cloak was still considered illegal. The Duckblind was just holotech camoflague.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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  • damienvryce2damienvryce2 Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I never understood why people equate SI with Section 31. SI is a legitamate intelligence organization charged with gathering Intel on known and possible threats to the Federation. Section 31 is a highly covert possibly even a rogue group whose existence is only very loosely tied to the Federation charter. They answer to no one and there is no oversight.
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  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    From what I can gather from limited Trek sources and whats publically availible on the various intelligence agencies

    S.I. is basically the ONI, NCIS, CIA and FBI all rolled into one Umbrella group

    It performs all the same mission statements as these agencies
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I never understood why people equate SI with Section 31. SI is a legitamate intelligence organization charged with gathering Intel on known and possible threats to the Federation. Section 31 is a highly covert possibly even a rogue group whose existence is only very loosely tied to the Federation charter. They answer to no one and there is no oversight.

    Like I said, they're the CIA without the weirdoes and nutjobs.

    The weirdoes and nutjobs went to Section 31.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    However... I think at the time the holoship's cloak was still considered illegal. The Duckblind was just holotech camoflague.

    The operation was so open though.

    The enterprise for example was able to wander straight into it without any special emphasis on keeping the methods a secret. You also have the fact that federation scientists using covert technology wasn't at all a sticking point to the captain and first officer who jointly exposed the Pegasus project. Neither was the cloaking device used on the holo ship, they freely used it and never coughed at any other aspect besides the intended use of the holo program.

    Next you have the basic point that if it makes things invisible and keeps enemy starships from picking your little boat up while within transporter distance, then its a cloaking device. I don't think we can split hairs about it being holographic or not, if it quacks its a duck. :)

    Then lastly you have the premise. It was a joint project with a non-FED aligned species. The federation would have to put a lot of trust in the Sona (which admiral whats-his-face almost explicitly stated that they didn't) not to expose a major treaty violation with a much more significant power. They (the Sona) could either leverage the federation with that information (ie. blackmail them) or use it to gain favor with the romulans at the Federation's expense.

    Starfleet using cloaking technology is just one massive, massive plot hole if you also maintain that it was a relevant issue for the period (which in several respects would seem reasonable after the dominion war.)
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    In one of the very early drafts on Insurrection, the Son'a were Romulans, currently allied with the Federation against the Dominion. That explains why there is a cloaking device in the plot.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    In one of the very early drafts on Insurrection, the Son'a were Romulans, currently allied with the Federation against the Dominion. That explains why there is a cloaking device in the plot.

    Not really. It explains why it was concieved by the writers. The plot still has to make sense of it on its own (it doesn't do a movie any credit to say "well this made a lot more sense in the first draft").
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  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Like I said, they're the CIA without the weirdoes and nutjobs.

    The weirdoes and nutjobs went to Section 31.

    A good comparison I think is the TV series Chuck

    In which the "good guys" were the CIA and the nutjobs went and joined Fulcrum
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    The operation was so open though.

    The enterprise for example was able to wander straight into it without any special emphasis on secrecy and the fact that the federation scientists were using covert technology wasn't at all a sticking point to the captain and first officer who jointly exposed the Pegasus project. Neither was the cloaking device used on the holo ship, they freely used it and never coughed at any other aspect besides the holographic program of choice.

    Next you have the basic point that if it makes thigns invisible and keeps enemy starships from picking your little boat up while within transporter distance, then its a cloaking device. I don't think we can split hairs about it being holographic or not, if it quacks its a duck. :)

    Then lastly you have the premise. It was a joint project with a non-FED aligned species. The federation would have to put a lot of trust in the Sona (which the admiral almost explicitly stated that they didn't) not to expose a major treaty violation with a much more significant power. They (the Sona) could either leverage the federation with that information (ie. blackmail them) or even the romulans and much more directly harm the FED.

    Starfleet using cloaking technology is just one massive, massive plot hole if you also maintain that it was a relevant issue for the period (which in several respects would seem reasonable after the dominion war.)

    Holographic Masking is one thing, like a camo net. A full on cloaking device is another. Also... the Enterprise didn't know about the cloaked Holoship until they stumbled across it. Then questions started to be asked.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Not really. It explains why it was concieved by the writers. The plot still has to make sense of it on its own (it doesn't do a movie any credit to say "well this made a lot more sense in the first draft").

    Well, there's very little in that movie that does it any credit.

    If you really want to stretch it, you could still say they got the cloak from the Romulans. Or that it was a Section 31 operation. Or just disregard the movie altogether (do the last one).
  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well, there's very little in that movie that does it any credit.

    If you really want to stretch it, you could still say they got the cloak from the Romulans. Or that it was a Section 31 operation. Or just disregard the movie altogether (do the last one).

    There is mention in an extended Novel that states that the Admiral in Insurrection was in contact with Section 31 on the project, much like the original incident with the Omega particle at the research station has also been tied to Section 31

    Thats not hard cannon by any means, but its a plausible connection
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    Admiral wrote:
    It was for the Federation. It was all... for the Federation.
    Might be a hint right there.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well, there's very little in that movie that does it any credit.

    If you really want to stretch it, you could still say they got the cloak from the Romulans. Or that it was a Section 31 operation. Or just disregard the movie altogether (do the last one).

    Its canon, we're stuck with it.:P

    Anyway captured from the dominion seems more likely. They used both ship and personal scale cloaking technology which is just what we saw in Insurrection. That conflict may have also made the romulans less nervous about the Federation toying around with it (they were an ally, they were apparently trustworthy with a loaned cloaking device, they're not in any position to launch yet another war in the quadrant for territorial expansion, and the Star Empire managed to have a lot of experience fighting a war were the other side made full use of cloaking technology.) If only to annoy the Klingons, Cardassians, Breen, and Dominion I think the Romulans would have dropped their reservation.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Holographic Masking is one thing, like a camo net. A full on cloaking device is another. Also... the Enterprise didn't know about the cloaked Holoship until they stumbled across it. Then questions started to be asked.

    But not about the cloaking device! They were happy with that, it even let them partially fill what would have been a much wider plot hole (see. transferring one bridge crew).
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    adverbero wrote: »
    There is mention in an extended Novel that states that the Admiral in Insurrection was in contact with Section 31 on the project, much like the original incident with the Omega particle at the research station has also been tied to Section 31

    Thats not hard cannon by any means, but its a plausible connection

    Its one that I personally don't like because it separates the main body of starfleet from the questionable use of technology (as if the organization wasn't capable of making their own poor judgements, they have to bring in the men from the grey area to enable it.)

    Section 31 should be treated as a constructive terrorist cell, not all purpose filler to Starfleet's "dark side".
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  • kerriknightkerriknight Member Posts: 274
    edited September 2014
    I never understood why people equate SI with Section 31. SI is a legitamate intelligence organization charged with gathering Intel on known and possible threats to the Federation. Section 31 is a highly covert possibly even a rogue group whose existence is only very loosely tied to the Federation charter. They answer to no one and there is no oversight.

    Yeah, the problem is anytime someone hears "intelligence" they think "clandestine espionage" and their head is filled with visions of James Bond and Mission: Impossible. In this regard, the Batman gadget belt imagery isn't helping...

    There's so many variations on the basic idea of intelligence gathering. The State Department has divisions tasked with constantly updating information on political realities, economic conditions, etc. of nations we deal with. Really quite harmless, though I have no doubt that bargaining power is gained (and used) by the side with more accurate real-time data. That's a civilian administration style of intelligence.

    So that's probably like the Federation Diplomatic Corps

    Then there's straightforward military operations intelligence, folded into each of the branches of service. The purpose is simple, to give your personnel greater security in conducting their operations, combat or not. This should include data on anything that could be a detriment to mission completion, from inclement weather to enemy positions and strengths. Even if it's troops delivering food and medicine supplies in some UN refugee camp, there would be resources devoted to identifying what threats could exist that would endanger personnel or disrupt the stated mission goals.

    To me, this is what's analogous to Starfleet Intelligence.

    Now, if they're being thorough, they'd certainly START with that civilian agency intelligence as a great place to get context.

    Then there's the clandestine agencies who probably don'y answer to anyone but themselves in reality. There may be a civilian administration-appointed figurehead who's job it is to show up in front of Congress/Parliament and get yelled at for the cameras (inevitably by someone who co-sponsored the bill allowing whatever abuse is now provoking their faux-outrage).

    That's Section 31.

    What muddies the waters is that the shows have used "Starfleet Intelligence" as a title for characters who abused their positions for personal gain long before Section 31 was ever a thing.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    They used available resources to counter a threat, like any resourceful crew.

    Also... I think when Picard mentioned that they found the Holoship to the Admiral, it implied that he wasn't happy it existed at all. Combination of using it to trick the Ba'ku while they were relocated by force and the fact it was cloaked as well.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Its one that I personally don't like because it separates the main body of starfleet from the questionable use of technology (as if the organization wasn't capable of making their own poor judgements, they have to bring in the men from the grey area to enable it.)

    Except that it wasn't very questionable or in fact poor judgment to move like 500 people without actually harming them to get a medical treatment that would save billions and potentially aid a wartime effort to spare the entire Alpha Quadrant centuries of Dominion occupation. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

    The only way to actually make an ethical dilemma out of it is to ignore the entire Dominion War or involve someone sleezy who botches the entire thing (Insurrection does both, to it's detriment).
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Also... I think when Picard mentioned that they found the Holoship to the Admiral, it implied that he wasn't happy it existed at all. Combination of using it to trick the Ba'ku while they were relocated by force and the fact it was cloaked as well.

    But he never made a point about the cloaking device! You can rope it in with Picard's general horror of finding starfleet involved with the Baku relocation but only because he doesn't specifically acknowledge that he's fine with Starfleet playing hide and seek. He doesn't say anything that would indicate that he's unhappy about duck-blinds or stealth vessels either (but he does raise plenty of other objections.) He's relatively calm/unconcerned about the mission even after discovering the research team (then he's only worried about what happened to data.)

    Basically a lack of confirmation isn't the same as a denial. The basic assumption should still be "wasn't too worried about the chances of another insterstellar war with the Romulans."
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Except that it wasn't very questionable or in fact poor judgment to move like 500 people without actually harming them to get a medical treatment that would save billions and potentially aid a wartime effort to spare the entire Alpha Quadrant centuries of Dominion occupation. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

    The only way to actually make an ethical dilemma out of it is to ignore the entire Dominion War or involve someone sleezy who botches the entire thing (Insurrection does both, to it's detriment).

    Separate issue. What I object to use is the invokation of Section 31 in the case of Omega Particle research or Federation cloaking tech because in each of those specific cases it detracts from the point that might otherwise be made if you left each event to "Starfleet did it on its own."

    There can certainly be other things involved to the same effect, but the plot would still be better served if it was sans-31 (because then in no respect can you piece-meal responsibility away from starfleet. They were totally committed to it.)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,940 Community Moderator
    edited September 2014
    I'm pretty sure the Holoship ws dismantled after Starfleet got word of it. Besides... Treaty violations weren't an immediate issue. Saving lives was.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the Holoship ws dismantled after Starfleet got word of it. Besides... Treaty violations weren't an immediate issue. Saving lives was.

    Picard is one to see the long view. Look at the Pegasus mission. Lives were at stake specifically when he decloaked the enterprise next to a romulan warbird but that, in the long run, probably prevented a much more serious conflict with the Romulans. If it was Kirk or Archer then you might expect the interstellar politics to take a back seat but I can't see that happening with Captain Earl Grey. :P


    Anyway, probably not the best movie to try to make sense out of, but if anything it does support the rather unconcerned approach to FED cloaking (at the very least it has to be a lower priority issue) that we're seeing now in STO.
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  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Separate issue.

    Well, sort of. I'd say the real underlying issue is the unwillingness of certain writers to provide an actual challenge Starfleet's ethos. Section 31 kinda-sorta worked on DS9 because they were not pulling their punches the way Insurrection does.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,981 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well, sort of. I'd say the real underlying issue is the unwillingness of certain writers to provide an actual challenge Starfleet's ethos. Section 31 kinda-sorta worked on DS9 because they were not pulling their punches the way Insurrection does.

    Indeed so but Section 31 was an active part in shaping the political developments of DS9 (see. attempted genocide) which is why I think it worked. They weren't just acting as plot-convenient R+D for other organizations, they had their own definable agenda and only used others in service to that agenda.

    They are very much independent which challenges the audience to try to find some sort of resolution between their methods and superficially altriusitic goals as a very specific exercise. Here's some people, they're not really a part of your faction but they say they have your interests at heart. This is what they're doing, how do you feel about it?

    To Insurrection's credit (and to the Omega episode of Voy), that is a separate exercise from "here's what your people are doing, how do you feel about it?"
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