The Bort's problem, is that it's a middle-child between a BAttlecruiser (in that it can mount DHC, and has one less item than a Cruiser) and a Fed Cruiser (in that it is built to move slowly and gracelessly with very high hull and a large crew).
It pulls the defects of both types, therefore, while not delivering the graces of either. This is why it failed to sell when it was 'new'.
I think he's on to something.
But, I can't help but wonder if the negative... "defects"... were intentional from the devs for fear that people would rage about a 5 tac console, cloaking, 8-weapon, DHC capable battlecruiser with an autocannon and pet being released.
So, perhaps they attempted to de-claw it?
The Bort can do ONE thing well-Circlestrafe with BFAW...and it doesn't do THAT as well as other designs on the other side.
While I'll agree that one of it's best uses is BFAW circling, it's the same old argument as the Gal-R.
It can indeed hold it's own.
The best? no.
Could another "chassis" perform the job better? Yes.
Can it do the job? Definitely.
Doesn't "circlestrafe" as well as fed cruisers? I respectfully disagree, Sir.
Two final points:
1: In PvE, I held my own without the best gear and doffs. I still don't have the best gear, but I did eventually get decent doffs.
2: I dropped the "spinal mount autocannon" after my initial tests with it. I'd be inclined to say that if you're using it, you're hurting your dps.
But hey, if it makes people happy, then rock on :cool:
I won't argue that it's the best. I don't believe it is from a min-max standpoint.
I will, however, argue that it IS competent. (again, same old Gal-R argument).
I realize this is all subjective. But without hard numbers and the explicit intent being Min-Maxing... it's all anecdotal. And each experience, subjective.
**I've come to realize from the other thread, that you are clearly judging it from a PvP standpoint. I had much more to say regarding PvE, but I've redacted much of my argument, as I rarely PvP.**
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
A good ship for PVE ,now after the changes to Epte/A2d and new rep toys I think it wouldn't be so bad.
I stopped using my Bortas a long time ago when I lost a probe in STF because i couldn't turn fast enough the beast.When it happened twice I switched to a mirror raptor that did everything better in PVE at least.
In PVP i didnt even try using it (i thing i used it once or maybe twice at most) because my raptor was already out-turned by better turning fed escorts that had more tactical consoles and better healing.
Bortas would be still a good ship for PVP if it would get a battlecloak ,more inertia and more turn ratio .
The crew number makes kdf ship's more fragile to their fed counterpart's due to crew bug so there it should be done something in Bortas case too like decreasing the crew.
Now the new Qib reminds me of Bortas because of the 3 tac consoles.I really don't know If I will buy it or skip it.
Romulan and Fed escorts have amazing stats so probably I will just buy the romulan escort from all the T6 ships and call it IKS Hit&Run
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I think he's on to something.
But, I can't help but wonder if the negative... "defects"... were intentional from the devs for fear that people would rage about a 5 tac console, cloaking, 8-weapon, DHC capable battlecruiser with an autocannon and pet being released.
So, perhaps they attempted to de-claw it?
If that is the case, they over-did it.
Also I don't think it is fair that a ship would be nerfed or weakened based off of the consoles it gains. If that is what they would do, then it should apply for every ship that ever came with any console.
Besides, whether or not they did in the past, I don't think it deserves to stay quite so weak as it is now. The Tac Bortas was the first 5 tac console ship in the game, and the other versions of the Bortas were the first 4 tac console cruiser/battlecruiser ships in the game, BUT...nowadays there's tons of those as well. Feds and Roms have bunches of 5 tac console ships, and there's plenty of 4 tac console cruisers.
There's nothing it deserves to be nerfed over, not now, over 2 years after it's release.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Also I don't think it is fair that a ship would be nerfed or weakened based off of the consoles it gains. If that is what they would do, then it should apply for every ship that ever came with any console.
Besides, whether or not they did in the past, I don't think it deserves to stay quite so weak as it is now. The Tac Bortas was the first 5 tac console ship in the game, and the other versions of the Bortas were the first 4 tac console cruiser/battlecruiser ships in the game, BUT...nowadays there's tons of those as well. Feds and Roms have bunches of 5 tac console ships, and there's plenty of 4 tac console cruisers.
There's nothing it deserves to be nerfed over, not now, over 2 years after it's release.
I couldn't agree more.
I can understand if they were apprehensive when it was released. This community has always been somewhat... volatile about possibly OP new ships/mechanics.
IF this is the case it should have been fixed long ago. And should be a priority. Being the KDF "Flagship" and all.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
Typically, yah, it fits with theoretical balancing efforts done badly. Most of the time, such mistakes are corrected in playtest (Most of the time being 'in other games'), though not always. such ham-balancing usually happens when a Dev (or Devs) "has an IDEA" but doesn't play the game often enough, or the unit type in question often enough, or Faction often enough, to understand what they're doing. In the case of the Bort, they ended up offering a ship with an enormous potential-and no way to apply it.
which is something that ends up a big, fat waste of time and money.
To circle-strafe effectively, you still need to have a radius that keeps you (mostly) in the target area without much difficulty. The only ship in the GAME with worse turn rate is a Carrier big enough to launch bird-of-prey sized frigates of it's own. not "A" frigate that then gets lost, or kills itself, or kills itself THEN gets lost...
I can keep a target inside my broadside arc in a bort as well as I do in a cruiser.
But I've always been a cruiser-carrier kinda guy. I'm used to cruise-ship turning rates, lol
Sure, a fast ship can evade the arc, but that's why a cruiser shouldn't chase escorts
Switch target -> profit.
About the BoP pet... I can't argue that. It, like the other trio consoles, are a hamper to it's effectiveness. I've had it get lost more than it's ever helped.
The problem with PVE as a measure, is that just about anything is effective in PvE. You can make a MIranda or T1 Brotlh effective in PvE with the right Bridge and duty officers and the right traits and parts.
a few years ago, there was a short fad of teams of shuttles and fighters, not twenty of htem, but five man teams, completing Cure, Infected and Hive.
IIRC the fleet that kicked this off also staged and completed in Mirandas. (tip of the hat to the Ausmonauts for both of those)...
reason being, of course, PVE is scripted, so it's very much like fighting stationary objects.
Agreed. So, saying the Bort is useless is untrue.
I feel like the reason this argument started in the first place is, saying the Bort is useless, where people use it to great effect in PvE. PvE and PvP are two different animals.
The Bort's appeal-problem on release was that most KDF either came in when you HAD TO PvP to level, or you had to reach 25 on a Fed to unlock the faction, then spent the rest of your time between unlock-and-fifty flying ships that were nimble. (Which is also why Raptors aren't as popular among KDF as Escorts are among Fed...) The defining trait for the Battlecruiser as a class is that it's got good turn rate and can mount DHC's. (this is even reinforced by the Fed's very-first-Battlecruser, the Avenger...) The Bort doesn't DO that.
I can agree here. I started STO beta and early access. My first KDF was on actual launch day.
I remember PvP'ing... a LOT. But there were the exploration clusters (the KDF versions), but grinding those was beyond tedious.
It can't even keep it's 'circle' at-range around the target reliably without putting a LOT Of work into what amounts to a slightly gimped copy of a Fed cruiser.
I can honestly say that I don't have this problem. And I don't use consoles or abilities to buff the turn rate.
with a pressure-damage build you have to maintain time-on-target. That means, against variable opponents, being able to keep the target inside your most effective arc, and in team-play you need defense of some kind. the ability to accellerate out of trouble and slow down to gt the target in the arc of your main guns, and finally, you need the ability to weather return fire and return fire that is both spike, and pressure.
My bort (and cruisers in general) are built with taking hits in mind. And they can dish it out.
Acceleration to get out of trouble, I have to rely on evasives. I admit that.
The crew mechanic doesn't help with this on a Bort-it's crew is large enough to guarantee that escalating hull damage will outpace repair efforts faster than it does on an Oddy, much less a free Assault Cruiser, while the turn radius will almost always hold you out of position against variable opposition whose defense is higher than your accuracy.
when you sum up in game mechanics terms, the Bortas doesn't do circle-strafe very well at all-and it can't strike and spike at all, while ships that cost LESS do those things. (You can apply the circle-strafe build to any Battlecruiser-difference is, on a Mogh, Tor'kaht, Vorcha-R, or Negh'var, it works BETTER.)
I can spike in my bort better than in any of my other cruisers (I don't have the Avenger).
That said, they're all beam boats. So, as far as an Eng capt. can spike in a beam boat, lol
Taking a Bird of Prey into the Ques, I'm comfortable with flying beside a Negh'var, or Tor'kaht, or Mogh- sure, they're slower, but they've got the graces to keep up their end in a C&H or Arena, I won't have to carry a lot of heals and buffs to keep them 'up' while risking my own survival.
The Bort, on the other hand, when it shows up in a Pugging Que, I know the team's in trouble.
It will NOT keep up it's end, and in an Arena it's going to be the main casualty in spite of my tissue-paper-hull and weak-flashlight shields with below-average tactical console power and other traits of mediocrity.
This was reinforced to me recently in a Ker'rat run, where some nice person in a Bort was out looking for a fight. After a while, the Feds ignored him, because he was too easily sent to respawn.
My replies in red.
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. You seem to have made it up already.
However, I feel that I should share my experience, since it is apparently far different than yours.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
I can understand if they were apprehensive when it was released. This community has always been somewhat... volatile about possibly OP new ships/mechanics.
IF this is the case it should have been fixed long ago. And should be a priority. Being the KDF "Flagship" and all.
Unfortunately, I doubt they ever will do anything.
It takes an act of God to get them to alter ship stats that isn't 'moar power' (aka the expansion), and rarely in the way players ask. Just look at what Fed players got for the 'Galaxy revamp'.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Unfortunately, I doubt they ever will do anything.
It takes an act of God to get them to alter ship stats that isn't 'moar power' (aka the expansion), and rarely in the way players ask. Just look at what Fed players got for the 'Galaxy revamp'.
LOL! Yes just slap a Hangar on it and there we go. 600+ pages of QQ for that?
Anyway the Bort Sucks. I only fly it because I used money on that sliding brick. I can write I novel on why it sucks. I see people defending it, but the reality is it's horrible for anything other than PVE. It moves like it's on ice or something. Cant stop fast , cant go fast, cant turn fast. Maybe if it had like 9 weapons forward and back I could understand, but meh....
As for the consoles-- all are horrid and should be internal ship powers, not consoles. I'm pretty sure those big azz forward guns are not consoles, or the massive Bird of Prey in the rear.
The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
LOL! Yes just slap a Hangar on it and there we go. 600+ pages of QQ for that?
Anyway the Bort Sucks. I only fly it because I used money on that sliding brick. I can write I novel on why it sucks. I see people defending it, but the reality is it's horrible for anything other than PVE. It moves like it's on ice or something. Cant stop fast , cant go fast, cant turn fast. Maybe if it had like 9 weapons forward and back I could understand, but meh....
As for the consoles-- all are horrid and should be internal ship powers, not consoles. I'm pretty sure those big azz forward guns are not consoles, or the massive Bird of Prey in the rear.
I agree there are many areas it needs shoring up.
And the consoles are pretty bad.
Anything other than PvE?
PvP? RP? :P
I dunno. Now that KDF is fully fleshed out, PvP is a very small and optional part of the game.
On one hand, I understand how PvP really allows one to test a ship's capabilities.
On the other hand, I have a hard time saying a ship sucks based on it's effectiveness in what amounts to a mini-game, where success or failure is rewarded with little more than an ego boost.
On that note, I decided to take it into PvP a few rounds today, since this is where it's being judged most harshly.
Won all but one round. The one we lost, the other team's bort tanked like a boss.
Simply a better team all around. /salute
Did some on Fed side as well (for the lulz) with my Oddy and Gal-R, but didn't go nearly as well
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
Somewhere deep in my soul, I am still looking for a means to resurrect my tactical Bortasqu. She has many flaws but I love her. Artistically, to me she is gorgeous. I do wish I could switch out the little BoP model and use the Bortas model. I think the Mogh is too boxy for my tastes even though it is the ship I mostly use.
I'm thinking with the Qib mastery skill, wide angle DHCs, and pilot specializations I can make her dance alittle more. Every so often I will fly her because I like big ships. For pve I rarely have an issue. Then again, with tachyokinetic consoles, fleet rcs, helmsman, and arrays is a whole lot of stacking already. One pass is usually all I need.
I wish there would be a re-release. It will never happen, but I can dream. 5/3 weapon layout, built in cannon, 10 weapon/10 engine power and a hangar. Throw in a matte black finish and some new parts and I would never fly anything else. Which isn't a bad thing. I like making multiple setups even with the same ship.
So I think my purchase of the Bortasqu wasn't a mistake. For what I used it for, it was quite effective and I had fun.
That said.... I will be getting the new KDF ships. They do look nice.
As far history of the bortas they took a legendary iconic ship on which it was named from "gowrons flagship before the negh'var". Then they let players who basically were biased against it heavily influence its design which is utter TRIBBLE. Then for 2 years they used it as a scapegoat to say they can't build any more kdf ships because that one didn't sell well. As with anything if you build something someone doesn't want it is not going to sell. They should if there is still time to build a T6 bop for KDF and then build a romulan D7 to sort of balance it all out for the release.
As far history of the bortas they took a legendary iconic ship on which it was named from "gowrons flagship before the negh'var".
Pfeh, you show your ignorance PetaQ!
The Bortas was the 22nd century Duras' ship. But I don't think that is the real inspiration.
Battlecruiser Vengeance is a proud Klingon legend first mentioned in the 1980s novels. It has recurred ever since. Naming the new flagship the Bortas is essentially the Klingon equivlent of the (IRL) first Space Shuttle being called Enterprise.
I'm holding out hope that at some point we'll see T6 refits of the Bortas, Odyssey and Scimitar classes. Since these ships are supposed to be their faction flagships, it makes sense to boost them up to T6. The Bort's T5U upgrades don't really address the ship's problems. They just make it tankier for the most part, and it didn't really need any help in that area.
Comments
I'm not sure that was a significant contribution as to why it took so long for a new KDF ship.
Patrickngo said (in another thread):
I think he's on to something.
But, I can't help but wonder if the negative... "defects"... were intentional from the devs for fear that people would rage about a 5 tac console, cloaking, 8-weapon, DHC capable battlecruiser with an autocannon and pet being released.
So, perhaps they attempted to de-claw it?
While I'll agree that one of it's best uses is BFAW circling, it's the same old argument as the Gal-R.
It can indeed hold it's own.
The best? no.
Could another "chassis" perform the job better? Yes.
Can it do the job? Definitely.
Doesn't "circlestrafe" as well as fed cruisers? I respectfully disagree, Sir.
Two final points:
1: In PvE, I held my own without the best gear and doffs. I still don't have the best gear, but I did eventually get decent doffs.
2: I dropped the "spinal mount autocannon" after my initial tests with it. I'd be inclined to say that if you're using it, you're hurting your dps.
But hey, if it makes people happy, then rock on :cool:
I won't argue that it's the best. I don't believe it is from a min-max standpoint.
I will, however, argue that it IS competent. (again, same old Gal-R argument).
I realize this is all subjective. But without hard numbers and the explicit intent being Min-Maxing... it's all anecdotal. And each experience, subjective.
**I've come to realize from the other thread, that you are clearly judging it from a PvP standpoint. I had much more to say regarding PvE, but I've redacted much of my argument, as I rarely PvP.**
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
A good ship for PVE ,now after the changes to Epte/A2d and new rep toys I think it wouldn't be so bad.
I stopped using my Bortas a long time ago when I lost a probe in STF because i couldn't turn fast enough the beast.When it happened twice I switched to a mirror raptor that did everything better in PVE at least.
In PVP i didnt even try using it (i thing i used it once or maybe twice at most) because my raptor was already out-turned by better turning fed escorts that had more tactical consoles and better healing.
Bortas would be still a good ship for PVP if it would get a battlecloak ,more inertia and more turn ratio .
The crew number makes kdf ship's more fragile to their fed counterpart's due to crew bug so there it should be done something in Bortas case too like decreasing the crew.
Now the new Qib reminds me of Bortas because of the 3 tac consoles.I really don't know If I will buy it or skip it.
Romulan and Fed escorts have amazing stats so probably I will just buy the romulan escort from all the T6 ships and call it IKS Hit&Run
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
If that is the case, they over-did it.
Also I don't think it is fair that a ship would be nerfed or weakened based off of the consoles it gains. If that is what they would do, then it should apply for every ship that ever came with any console.
Besides, whether or not they did in the past, I don't think it deserves to stay quite so weak as it is now. The Tac Bortas was the first 5 tac console ship in the game, and the other versions of the Bortas were the first 4 tac console cruiser/battlecruiser ships in the game, BUT...nowadays there's tons of those as well. Feds and Roms have bunches of 5 tac console ships, and there's plenty of 4 tac console cruisers.
There's nothing it deserves to be nerfed over, not now, over 2 years after it's release.
I couldn't agree more.
I can understand if they were apprehensive when it was released. This community has always been somewhat... volatile about possibly OP new ships/mechanics.
IF this is the case it should have been fixed long ago. And should be a priority. Being the KDF "Flagship" and all.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
My replies in red.
I'm not necessarily trying to change your mind. You seem to have made it up already.
However, I feel that I should share my experience, since it is apparently far different than yours.
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
Unfortunately, I doubt they ever will do anything.
It takes an act of God to get them to alter ship stats that isn't 'moar power' (aka the expansion), and rarely in the way players ask. Just look at what Fed players got for the 'Galaxy revamp'.
LOL! Yes just slap a Hangar on it and there we go. 600+ pages of QQ for that?
Anyway the Bort Sucks. I only fly it because I used money on that sliding brick. I can write I novel on why it sucks. I see people defending it, but the reality is it's horrible for anything other than PVE. It moves like it's on ice or something. Cant stop fast , cant go fast, cant turn fast. Maybe if it had like 9 weapons forward and back I could understand, but meh....
As for the consoles-- all are horrid and should be internal ship powers, not consoles. I'm pretty sure those big azz forward guns are not consoles, or the massive Bird of Prey in the rear.
I agree there are many areas it needs shoring up.
And the consoles are pretty bad.
Anything other than PvE?
PvP? RP? :P
I dunno. Now that KDF is fully fleshed out, PvP is a very small and optional part of the game.
On one hand, I understand how PvP really allows one to test a ship's capabilities.
On the other hand, I have a hard time saying a ship sucks based on it's effectiveness in what amounts to a mini-game, where success or failure is rewarded with little more than an ego boost.
On that note, I decided to take it into PvP a few rounds today, since this is where it's being judged most harshly.
Won all but one round. The one we lost, the other team's bort tanked like a boss.
Simply a better team all around. /salute
Did some on Fed side as well (for the lulz) with my Oddy and Gal-R, but didn't go nearly as well
It's me, Chrome. [Join Date: May 2009]
"Oh, I may be captain by rank... but I never wanted to be anything else but an engineer." ~Montgomery Scott~
I'm thinking with the Qib mastery skill, wide angle DHCs, and pilot specializations I can make her dance alittle more. Every so often I will fly her because I like big ships. For pve I rarely have an issue. Then again, with tachyokinetic consoles, fleet rcs, helmsman, and arrays is a whole lot of stacking already. One pass is usually all I need.
I wish there would be a re-release. It will never happen, but I can dream. 5/3 weapon layout, built in cannon, 10 weapon/10 engine power and a hangar. Throw in a matte black finish and some new parts and I would never fly anything else. Which isn't a bad thing. I like making multiple setups even with the same ship.
So I think my purchase of the Bortasqu wasn't a mistake. For what I used it for, it was quite effective and I had fun.
That said.... I will be getting the new KDF ships. They do look nice.
Pfeh, you show your ignorance PetaQ!
The Bortas was the 22nd century Duras' ship. But I don't think that is the real inspiration.
Battlecruiser Vengeance is a proud Klingon legend first mentioned in the 1980s novels. It has recurred ever since. Naming the new flagship the Bortas is essentially the Klingon equivlent of the (IRL) first Space Shuttle being called Enterprise.