lol yes of course they aren't Gestapo officers, yet Cryptic is giving away this Gestapo costume for your future "intel" officers.
ahh, I love Cryptic!
Indeed, I half expect to be greeted by Franklin Drake in the Delta Quadrant
Man I'd love to disintegrate him, but since he's in espionage he'd probably have the "Feign Disentegration" Training
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Indeed, I half expect to be greeted by Franklin Drake in the Delta Quadrant
Man I'd love to disintegrate him, but since he's in espionage he'd probably have the "Feign Disentegration" Training
And that is why Star Fleet needs to take a page from either the mirror universe or the Klingons. Knife to heart or decapitated by bat'leth is both soothing and you get a body as proof that you got him.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Yes and we have seen Multiple S.I. agents at least one of whom, was an undercover field operative's in the TV shows, http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chadwick In DS9 and Gannet Brooks in ENT
Both of whom are officially sacntioned operatives of Starfleet Intelligence, So yes they do the job's that MI6 or similar Agnency would do. In addition to Navel Intelligence.
Its safe to assume that Starfleet Intellignece , which is itself devided into multiple Divisions handles both Covert Ops and the more familiar Naval Intelligence roles.
Its the Department of Starfleet that handles Internal Affairs as well.
Starfleet Intelligence is simply an Umbrella term for the various Divisions and departments handling everything from Recruiting Double Agents in the Tal Shiar to gathering Intel on enemy fleet movements in a sector.
Oh and this is the short description on the intro for the new Operative Gear : "Starfleet Intelligence has prepared this briefing to familiarize Starfleet Operatives with [B]a new suite of equipment, designed specifically for subterfuge!"[/B]
that lastpart is pretty explicit in what its meant for
So these New officers, Are they going to be Operatives , probably not, They are Intelligence Officers a different position, but make no mistake Starfleet Intelligence Has and makes use of Undercover operatives for various purposes.
Some of which may not be overseen or even known about by Starfleet Command E.g The pegasus Incident
So you're saying they are a potential mole. Thing is, since intel-gathering is a legitimate part of military operations, Starfleet Intelligence is integrated with the rest of Starfleet as part of daily ops. A Captain would not suspect them more than any other officer because they have a job that includes covert operations but not by nature a job that means spying on your boss. It all depends, I think, on where the new Intel BOFF comes from. Is it someone you choose or someone who gets assigned? Giving away intel officers with the Delta-pack and selling them in the store on Tribble suggests the Captain chooses the intel officer, its not a Tovan-like uncustomizable character sent by Burgess to be attached to the ship and spy on the Captain.
The foundry could have a lot of fun with the idea the Intel officer is spying on the crew, but really, if Starfleet intelligence wanted to go covert ANY of your bridge officers could be a mole.
We have a doff assignment already for this, "Investigate rumors of Starfleet Intelligence" so this is something they do in STO. But the fact that Starfleet Intelligence does Internal Affairs and Counter-espionage work as well as info-gathering doesn't change that there is a legitimate post for an intelligence officer who is answering to the Captain and in their chain of command. In the military, you have tenant units and units that answer to a different chain of command on base. Area Defense Counsel and Inspector General offices, and other groups that bypass squadron and even base commanders so they can be fair and neutral in their judgment. That doesn't mean there aren't people in the SAME CAREER FIELD who are under those Squadron and Base Commanders in the chain of command because their jobs are to work for them.
And then there's the matter of good guys and bad, as seen through the eyes of your Captain. While the Fed player doesn't see Drake do anything worse than disregard the temporal prime directive and sneak around (which is probably why even though you really dislike him there's no option to object to him during the Drozana arc, because there he's asking you to do stuff you would probably do anyway if you ran across the situation on your own), the Romulan and KDF players see he's a pretty rotten scoundrel (but still not as bad as the guys in DS9 who, i will note, were far more effective than the Tal Shiar ever was) so we can classify him as a Bad Guy or at least one of those Anti-Heroes Who Are Not Allowed to Join the Justice League Because Superman Would Disapprove.
Burgess, however, shows up in Doomsday, even ASSIGNS an Intel officer to your ship for the mission, and is presented without question as a good and trustworthy person. Lt. VanZyl follows your orders and there's never an option to distrust her. DeSoto is presented as a good guy alternative to the Section 31 guys. Even though there's a doff mission about them, Starfleet Intelligence is overwhelmingly presented as NOT a villain for the Federation player when we actually interact with them. (Probably because the Internal Affairs division is a separate chain of command leading up to Starfleet Command and we've been dealing with operational intelligence officers who work in our chain of command.) Section 31 is the cloak and dagger group you distrust just because of their affiliation.
Who watches Section 31? if they are an autonomy who is able to shut them down? The President of the Federation? I mean whose pulling their string?
I bet they get regular Undine infiltration checks at random times 24/7.
No one does. Section 31 is a rogue organization that recruits from Starfleet (and who knows where else), but is not part of Starfleet or the Federation itself.
The only way to shut them down is identify their agents and arrest them all, or convince them to stop doing Section 31 work. But since Section 31 doesn't advertise its members, this is difficult. And it isn't helped by the fact that some people that are not directly part of it may turn a blind eye to them if it suits them. (Like Admiral Ross - otherwise a sympathetic character in DS9 - did).
I'd love to see an episode where we catch one of those Section 31 spies, show how dangerous they are, and bring him to justice.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Starfleet Intelligence is basically Navy Intelligence.
The Federation may have equivalents to MI5 / FBI or MI6 / CIA or GCHQ / NSA, but they aren't featured.
Section 31 isn't an equivalent to any of the above organisations above at all. It has no public face, no official representation, no legal presence, no treaties, no official agents etc.
It's basically a bunch of like minded individuals forming a intelligence militia based upon some deeply buried paragraph in a historical document.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So you're saying they are a potential mole. Thing is, since intel-gathering is a legitimate part of military operations, Starfleet Intelligence is integrated with the rest of Starfleet as part of daily ops. A Captain would not suspect them more than any other officer because they have a job that includes covert operations but not by nature a job that means spying on your boss. It all depends, I think, on where the new Intel BOFF comes from. Is it someone you choose or someone who gets assigned? Giving away intel officers with the Delta-pack and selling them in the store on Tribble suggests the Captain chooses the intel officer, its not a Tovan-like uncustomizable character sent by Burgess to be attached to the ship and spy on the Captain.
The foundry could have a lot of fun with the idea the Intel officer is spying on the crew, but really, if Starfleet intelligence wanted to go covert ANY of your bridge officers could be a mole.
We have a doff assignment already for this, "Investigate rumors of Starfleet Intelligence" so this is something they do in STO. But the fact that Starfleet Intelligence does Internal Affairs and Counter-espionage work as well as info-gathering doesn't change that there is a legitimate post for an intelligence officer who is answering to the Captain and in their chain of command. In the military, you have tenant units and units that answer to a different chain of command on base. Area Defense Counsel and Inspector General offices, and other groups that bypass squadron and even base commanders so they can be fair and neutral in their judgment. That doesn't mean there aren't people in the SAME CAREER FIELD who are under those Squadron and Base Commanders in the chain of command because their jobs are to work for them.
And then there's the matter of good guys and bad, as seen through the eyes of your Captain. While the Fed player doesn't see Drake do anything worse than disregard the temporal prime directive and sneak around (which is probably why even though you really dislike him there's no option to object to him during the Drozana arc, because there he's asking you to do stuff you would probably do anyway if you ran across the situation on your own), the Romulan and KDF players see he's a pretty rotten scoundrel (but still not as bad as the guys in DS9 who, i will note, were far more effective than the Tal Shiar ever was) so we can classify him as a Bad Guy or at least one of those Anti-Heroes Who Are Not Allowed to Join the Justice League Because Superman Would Disapprove.
Burgess, however, shows up in Doomsday, even ASSIGNS an Intel officer to your ship for the mission, and is presented without question as a good and trustworthy person. Lt. VanZyl follows your orders and there's never an option to distrust her. DeSoto is presented as a good guy alternative to the Section 31 guys. Even though there's a doff mission about them, Starfleet Intelligence is overwhelmingly presented as NOT a villain for the Federation player when we actually interact with them. (Probably because the Internal Affairs division is a separate chain of command leading up to Starfleet Command and we've been dealing with operational intelligence officers who work in our chain of command.) Section 31 is the cloak and dagger group you distrust just because of their affiliation.
Thats pretty much the case, I'm not saying they are evil or anyhting, But people insisting they don;t have spies are simply wrong We've seen multiple cannon examples of actual Spies working on legitimate and sanctioned Intelligence Ops
Starfleet Intelligence is basically Navy Intelligence.
The Federation may have equivalents to MI5 / FBI or MI6 / CIA or GCHQ / NSA, but they aren't featured.
Section 31 isn't an equivalent to any of the above organisations above at all. It has no public face, no official representation, no legal presence, no treaties, no official agents etc.
It's basically a bunch of like minded individuals forming a intelligence militia based upon some deeply buried paragraph in a historical document.
They are BOTH were you paying attention to any of the TV episodes that featured S.I Agnets, or Operatives like Chadwick?
They have double agents in most of the Mjor Quadrant powers, Legitiamtely sanctioned undercover operatives infiltrating Organised Crime networks, they even have branches for domestic security ( Read MI5)
Just because Starfleet Is most analogue to the US Navy doesn't make Starfleet Intelligence the same as The Office of Naval Intelligence for the US navy, Starfleet Intel is an umbrella Agency, it does ALL Legitimate intelligence operations for the Federation.
Including but not limited to Naval Intelligence , as well as Criminal Investigations such as investigating the Orion Syndicate, And dealing with internal security Leaks and terrorist threats to Starfleet
This would make them ONI, NCIS, FBI and CIA combined, since they are covering the Mission statements for all 4 agencies
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
I'd love to see an episode where we catch one of those Section 31 spies, show how dangerous they are, and bring him to justice.
If only
Unfortunatly they get glorified by parts of the fandom/playerbase and that includes Foundry authors and maybe even cryptic itself
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
They are BOTH were you paying attention to any of the TV episodes that featured S.I Agnets, or Operatives like Chadwick?
They have double agents in most of the Mjor Quadrant powers, Legitiamtely sanctioned undercover operatives infiltrating Organised Crime networks, they even have branches for domestic security ( Read MI5)
Just because Starfleet Is most analogue to the US Navy doesn't make Starfleet Intelligence the same as The Office of Naval Intelligence for the US navy, Starfleet Intel is an umbrella Agency, it does ALL Legitimate intelligence operations for the Federation.
Including but not limited to Naval Intelligence , as well as Criminal Investigations such as investigating the Orion Syndicate, And dealing with internal security Leaks and terrorist threats to Starfleet
This would make them ONI, NCIS, FBI and CIA combined, since they are covering the Mission statements for all 4 agencies
Of course it's Navel Intelligence, otherwise it would be Federation Intelligence or Federation Homeland Intelligence, or whatever.
Did you watch? They did nothing that was out of the (already massively expanded) scope of Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Whatever, its useless trying to point out the overlapping mission statements and roles of the Intelligence branch when people are going to assume Starfleet = Navy so starfleet intelligence = Naval intelligence
I'm not assuming that, I never make assumptions comparing Starfleet to a Navy, ever.
But Starfleet Intelligence is clearly the Intelligence branch of Starfleet, not the Federation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'm not assuming that, I never make assumptions comparing Starfleet to a Navy, ever.
Yeah sorry about that I made a bit of an overreaching accusation and I retract it
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Yeah sorry about that I made a bit of an overreaching accusation and I retract it
Nah, it's fine.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The more we talk about this, the more I wish we'd have a plotline where they explore the complex relationship between Starfleet proper and Starfleet Intelligence, maybe where you uncover something. It could give a reason to have the intel officer on the roster even without a Tier 6 ship, if you have specific parts for them in an internally-focused episode that runs around paranoia. Something like you'd see in the show, where Starfleet Intelligence's actions would cast some suspicion on them and your bridge officers would take sides and you'd have to work through the divide and bring the crew back together. Something where the new officer gets to gel with the team and work through the suspicion caused not only by SI's activities but the general paranoia caused by exposure to Section 31 (you don't question Burgess, for example, but you do question DeSoto since you've met Drake by that point).
Too bad that's considerably less likely than just getting a new officer and there's some set dialogue in the episodes for them. I want a substantial story, but I expect Intelligence Officer = New Exposition Officer.
No one does. Section 31 is a rogue organization that recruits from Starfleet (and who knows where else), but is not part of Starfleet or the Federation itself.
The only way to shut them down is identify their agents and arrest them all, or convince them to stop doing Section 31 work. But since Section 31 doesn't advertise its members, this is difficult. And it isn't helped by the fact that some people that are not directly part of it may turn a blind eye to them if it suits them. (Like Admiral Ross - otherwise a sympathetic character in DS9 - did).
I'd love to see an episode where we catch one of those Section 31 spies, show how dangerous they are, and bring him to justice.
Other than one comment by Ron Moore, there is no real evidence that the agency has gone rogue.
And what little evidence we have points to Section 31 as a Federation government entity. Just completely autonomous, with no oversight. Which is both an advantage (operational efficiency) and a disadvantage ("Who watches the watchers?"). It's very easy for such an entity to deviate from their stated goals. Just look at the treason of the Tal Shiar in STO for a glaring example.
Starfleet Intelligence is basically Navy Intelligence.
The Federation may have equivalents to MI5 / FBI or MI6 / CIA or GCHQ / NSA, but they aren't featured.
Section 31 isn't an equivalent to any of the above organisations above at all. It has no public face, no official representation, no legal presence, no treaties, no official agents etc.
It's basically a bunch of like minded individuals forming a intelligence militia based upon some deeply buried paragraph in a historical document.
I agree with the comparison between U.S. Navy ONI and Starfleet Intelligence.
However, I disagree with the rest.
Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter is Section 31's legal backdrop. There is no real evidence that they are some sort of private group of hard-core "patriot" spies operating without ANY legal standing in the Federation.
If anything, based on what little evidence there is, and their portrayal in Star Trek and STO, Section 31 is more of a "shadowy" version of the NSA, with some similarities to the black operations "fronts" maintained by Cold War intelligence agencies on both sides of the Iron Curtain, with complete and plausible deniability thrown in.
Section 31 represents part of why the Federation is a "paradise" in the 24th Century, despite all of the nastiness in the galaxy (a view shared by Section 31's creator Ira Behr). But as he points out, it's a complicated issue. Section 31 could very well be the serpent in Eden down the road, in my personal opinion.
The thing about Section 31 is, We have only seen what 3 agents so far?
( Sloan, Drake and Harris ) correct me if there are more I've forgotten ( EDIT- remembered Koval, the double agent)
When they do show up they have made a habit of using coercion to get Non/ex members to act for them, Bashir for Sloan, Reed for Harris, and the Player character for Drake ( Worth mentioning that Bashir was "accpeted" into Section 31 despite his rejecting them)
This doesn't present them as a well staffed organisation, they rely on acting through others to achieve their goals. We've never seen ships or bases for them ( Fanon and Foundry missions not withstanding) from which to organise a top down power structure, and in the words of the Memory Alpha Entry "A select few were chosen to carry widespread knowledge of their operations"
Comparisons to any agency seem out of place, Section 31 bears more organisational similarity to a terrorist Cell or Organised crime syndicate than an Intelligence agency. An Invitation only Private club of Former Intelligence Operatives and selected Assets with specialist skills and Knowledge, who happen to enjoy the sympathy of selected Flag Officers
We don't even know for sure if these various agents even work for the same people, they may all be members or independant splinter cells, perhaps they never meet, they never confer , they don't know each others identity?
On top of that, anyone could claim to be Section 31 since theres no way to prove it, I doubt they have membership cards, the mythos about the group may lead to Copycat groups using the Sinister reputation for their own ends
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Other than one comment by Ron Moore, there is no real evidence that the agency has gone rogue.
And what little evidence we have points to Section 31 as a Federation government entity. Just completely autonomous, with no oversight. Which is both an advantage (operational efficiency) and a disadvantage ("Who watches the watchers?"). It's very easy for such an entity to deviate from their stated goals. Just look at the treason of the Tal Shiar in STO for a glaring example.
There are more references to it being a rogue agency than that. Several characters describe it that way, including senior Starfleet officers. Captain Sisko and Admiral Ross both react with concern when Bashir approaches them about Section 31, and ask him to be careful and find out what they're up to, exactly as if they were dealing with a dangerous criminal enterprise. (Ross has ulterior motives, however.) Sisko doesn't react anything like that to a Starfleet Intelligence operation involving O'Brien.
The Federation, we're given to understand, is a democratic republic -- which means, all government institutions are public institutions that ultimately answer to the popular will. An autonomous government agency with no oversight, by definition, is a violation of republican principles, regardless of the intentions of that agency; it is inherently illegitimate.
It follows from that, that anyone intentionally supporting or collaborating with Section 31 is undermining the government of the Federation; if an official of the government is doing so (like, say, a Starfleet admiral), then it's a grievious abuse of authority.
There are more references to it being a rogue agency than that. Several characters describe it that way, including senior Starfleet officers. Captain Sisko and Admiral Ross both react with concern when Bashir approaches them about Section 31, and ask him to be careful and find out what they're up to, exactly as if they were dealing with a dangerous criminal enterprise. (Ross has ulterior motives, however.) Sisko doesn't react anything like that to a Starfleet Intelligence operation involving O'Brien.
The Federation, we're given to understand, is a democratic republic -- which means, all government institutions are public institutions that ultimately answer to the popular will. An autonomous government agency with no oversight, by definition, is a violation of republican principles, regardless of the intentions of that agency; it is inherently illegitimate.
It follows from that, that anyone intentionally supporting or collaborating with Section 31 is undermining the government of the Federation; if an official of the government is doing so (like, say, a Starfleet admiral), then it's a grievious abuse of authority.
Exactly, I'm glad not everybody playing STO is an S-31 fanboy
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Other than one comment by Ron Moore, there is no real evidence that the agency has gone rogue.
And what little evidence we have points to Section 31 as a Federation government entity. Just completely autonomous, with no oversight. Which is both an advantage (operational efficiency) and a disadvantage ("Who watches the watchers?"). It's very easy for such an entity to deviate from their stated goals. Just look at the treason of the Tal Shiar in STO for a glaring example.
I agree with the comparison between U.S. Navy ONI and Starfleet Intelligence.
However, I disagree with the rest.
Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter is Section 31's legal backdrop. There is no real evidence that they are some sort of private group of hard-core "patriot" spies operating without ANY legal standing in the Federation.
If anything, based on what little evidence there is, and their portrayal in Star Trek and STO, Section 31 is more of a "shadowy" version of the NSA, with some similarities to the black operations "fronts" maintained by Cold War intelligence agencies on both sides of the Iron Curtain, with complete and plausible deniability thrown in.
Section 31 represents part of why the Federation is a "paradise" in the 24th Century, despite all of the nastiness in the galaxy (a view shared by Section 31's creator Ira Behr). But as he points out, it's a complicated issue. Section 31 could very well be the serpent in Eden down the road, in my personal opinion.
Well, if it's a government entity that the Federation Council and President don't know about or have control over, it's not really a government entity.
Also, the one thing we do know is that it predates the Federation so it can't exactly be PART of the Federation unless the Federation officially recognized it the way they did with Starfleet.
Since they didn't, that really does just make Section 31 basically a terror cell like Terra Nova or the Maquis, albeit one that certain Federation and Starfleet officials may turn a blind eye to.
But you aren't really a government agency if you're disavowed and supply your own resources. That kind of undermines the whole concept of what government of any kind is, which is a political arrangement of collective public power.
A black ops "agency" that doesn't legally receive official funding or sanctioning isn't really a government agency. It's a glorified neighborhood watch at best and a terror cell at worst.
Comments
Indeed, I half expect to be greeted by Franklin Drake in the Delta Quadrant
Man I'd love to disintegrate him, but since he's in espionage he'd probably have the "Feign Disentegration" Training
And that is why Star Fleet needs to take a page from either the mirror universe or the Klingons. Knife to heart or decapitated by bat'leth is both soothing and you get a body as proof that you got him.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So you're saying they are a potential mole. Thing is, since intel-gathering is a legitimate part of military operations, Starfleet Intelligence is integrated with the rest of Starfleet as part of daily ops. A Captain would not suspect them more than any other officer because they have a job that includes covert operations but not by nature a job that means spying on your boss. It all depends, I think, on where the new Intel BOFF comes from. Is it someone you choose or someone who gets assigned? Giving away intel officers with the Delta-pack and selling them in the store on Tribble suggests the Captain chooses the intel officer, its not a Tovan-like uncustomizable character sent by Burgess to be attached to the ship and spy on the Captain.
The foundry could have a lot of fun with the idea the Intel officer is spying on the crew, but really, if Starfleet intelligence wanted to go covert ANY of your bridge officers could be a mole.
We have a doff assignment already for this, "Investigate rumors of Starfleet Intelligence" so this is something they do in STO. But the fact that Starfleet Intelligence does Internal Affairs and Counter-espionage work as well as info-gathering doesn't change that there is a legitimate post for an intelligence officer who is answering to the Captain and in their chain of command. In the military, you have tenant units and units that answer to a different chain of command on base. Area Defense Counsel and Inspector General offices, and other groups that bypass squadron and even base commanders so they can be fair and neutral in their judgment. That doesn't mean there aren't people in the SAME CAREER FIELD who are under those Squadron and Base Commanders in the chain of command because their jobs are to work for them.
And then there's the matter of good guys and bad, as seen through the eyes of your Captain. While the Fed player doesn't see Drake do anything worse than disregard the temporal prime directive and sneak around (which is probably why even though you really dislike him there's no option to object to him during the Drozana arc, because there he's asking you to do stuff you would probably do anyway if you ran across the situation on your own), the Romulan and KDF players see he's a pretty rotten scoundrel (but still not as bad as the guys in DS9 who, i will note, were far more effective than the Tal Shiar ever was) so we can classify him as a Bad Guy or at least one of those Anti-Heroes Who Are Not Allowed to Join the Justice League Because Superman Would Disapprove.
Burgess, however, shows up in Doomsday, even ASSIGNS an Intel officer to your ship for the mission, and is presented without question as a good and trustworthy person. Lt. VanZyl follows your orders and there's never an option to distrust her. DeSoto is presented as a good guy alternative to the Section 31 guys. Even though there's a doff mission about them, Starfleet Intelligence is overwhelmingly presented as NOT a villain for the Federation player when we actually interact with them. (Probably because the Internal Affairs division is a separate chain of command leading up to Starfleet Command and we've been dealing with operational intelligence officers who work in our chain of command.) Section 31 is the cloak and dagger group you distrust just because of their affiliation.
I bet they get regular Undine infiltration checks at random times 24/7.
No one does. Section 31 is a rogue organization that recruits from Starfleet (and who knows where else), but is not part of Starfleet or the Federation itself.
The only way to shut them down is identify their agents and arrest them all, or convince them to stop doing Section 31 work. But since Section 31 doesn't advertise its members, this is difficult. And it isn't helped by the fact that some people that are not directly part of it may turn a blind eye to them if it suits them. (Like Admiral Ross - otherwise a sympathetic character in DS9 - did).
I'd love to see an episode where we catch one of those Section 31 spies, show how dangerous they are, and bring him to justice.
The Federation may have equivalents to MI5 / FBI or MI6 / CIA or GCHQ / NSA, but they aren't featured.
Section 31 isn't an equivalent to any of the above organisations above at all. It has no public face, no official representation, no legal presence, no treaties, no official agents etc.
It's basically a bunch of like minded individuals forming a intelligence militia based upon some deeply buried paragraph in a historical document.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Thats pretty much the case, I'm not saying they are evil or anyhting, But people insisting they don;t have spies are simply wrong We've seen multiple cannon examples of actual Spies working on legitimate and sanctioned Intelligence Ops
They are BOTH were you paying attention to any of the TV episodes that featured S.I Agnets, or Operatives like Chadwick?
They have double agents in most of the Mjor Quadrant powers, Legitiamtely sanctioned undercover operatives infiltrating Organised Crime networks, they even have branches for domestic security ( Read MI5)
Just because Starfleet Is most analogue to the US Navy doesn't make Starfleet Intelligence the same as The Office of Naval Intelligence for the US navy, Starfleet Intel is an umbrella Agency, it does ALL Legitimate intelligence operations for the Federation.
Including but not limited to Naval Intelligence , as well as Criminal Investigations such as investigating the Orion Syndicate, And dealing with internal security Leaks and terrorist threats to Starfleet
This would make them ONI, NCIS, FBI and CIA combined, since they are covering the Mission statements for all 4 agencies
obviously cryptic is going to milk it for all they can. its going to become their bread-and-butter.
free jkname
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If only
Unfortunatly they get glorified by parts of the fandom/playerbase and that includes Foundry authors and maybe even cryptic itself
Of course it's Navel Intelligence, otherwise it would be Federation Intelligence or Federation Homeland Intelligence, or whatever.
Did you watch? They did nothing that was out of the (already massively expanded) scope of Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I'm not assuming that, I never make assumptions comparing Starfleet to a Navy, ever.
But Starfleet Intelligence is clearly the Intelligence branch of Starfleet, not the Federation.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yeah sorry about that I made a bit of an overreaching accusation and I retract it
Nah, it's fine.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Too bad that's considerably less likely than just getting a new officer and there's some set dialogue in the episodes for them. I want a substantial story, but I expect Intelligence Officer = New Exposition Officer.
Other than one comment by Ron Moore, there is no real evidence that the agency has gone rogue.
And what little evidence we have points to Section 31 as a Federation government entity. Just completely autonomous, with no oversight. Which is both an advantage (operational efficiency) and a disadvantage ("Who watches the watchers?"). It's very easy for such an entity to deviate from their stated goals. Just look at the treason of the Tal Shiar in STO for a glaring example.
@artan42:
I agree with the comparison between U.S. Navy ONI and Starfleet Intelligence.
However, I disagree with the rest.
Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter is Section 31's legal backdrop. There is no real evidence that they are some sort of private group of hard-core "patriot" spies operating without ANY legal standing in the Federation.
If anything, based on what little evidence there is, and their portrayal in Star Trek and STO, Section 31 is more of a "shadowy" version of the NSA, with some similarities to the black operations "fronts" maintained by Cold War intelligence agencies on both sides of the Iron Curtain, with complete and plausible deniability thrown in.
Section 31 represents part of why the Federation is a "paradise" in the 24th Century, despite all of the nastiness in the galaxy (a view shared by Section 31's creator Ira Behr). But as he points out, it's a complicated issue. Section 31 could very well be the serpent in Eden down the road, in my personal opinion.
( Sloan, Drake and Harris ) correct me if there are more I've forgotten ( EDIT- remembered Koval, the double agent)
When they do show up they have made a habit of using coercion to get Non/ex members to act for them, Bashir for Sloan, Reed for Harris, and the Player character for Drake ( Worth mentioning that Bashir was "accpeted" into Section 31 despite his rejecting them)
This doesn't present them as a well staffed organisation, they rely on acting through others to achieve their goals. We've never seen ships or bases for them ( Fanon and Foundry missions not withstanding) from which to organise a top down power structure, and in the words of the Memory Alpha Entry "A select few were chosen to carry widespread knowledge of their operations"
Comparisons to any agency seem out of place, Section 31 bears more organisational similarity to a terrorist Cell or Organised crime syndicate than an Intelligence agency.
An Invitation only Private club of Former Intelligence Operatives and selected Assets with specialist skills and Knowledge, who happen to enjoy the sympathy of selected Flag Officers
We don't even know for sure if these various agents even work for the same people, they may all be members or independant splinter cells, perhaps they never meet, they never confer , they don't know each others identity?
On top of that, anyone could claim to be Section 31 since theres no way to prove it, I doubt they have membership cards, the mythos about the group may lead to Copycat groups using the Sinister reputation for their own ends
The Federation, we're given to understand, is a democratic republic -- which means, all government institutions are public institutions that ultimately answer to the popular will. An autonomous government agency with no oversight, by definition, is a violation of republican principles, regardless of the intentions of that agency; it is inherently illegitimate.
It follows from that, that anyone intentionally supporting or collaborating with Section 31 is undermining the government of the Federation; if an official of the government is doing so (like, say, a Starfleet admiral), then it's a grievious abuse of authority.
Exactly, I'm glad not everybody playing STO is an S-31 fanboy
Well, if it's a government entity that the Federation Council and President don't know about or have control over, it's not really a government entity.
Also, the one thing we do know is that it predates the Federation so it can't exactly be PART of the Federation unless the Federation officially recognized it the way they did with Starfleet.
Since they didn't, that really does just make Section 31 basically a terror cell like Terra Nova or the Maquis, albeit one that certain Federation and Starfleet officials may turn a blind eye to.
But you aren't really a government agency if you're disavowed and supply your own resources. That kind of undermines the whole concept of what government of any kind is, which is a political arrangement of collective public power.
A black ops "agency" that doesn't legally receive official funding or sanctioning isn't really a government agency. It's a glorified neighborhood watch at best and a terror cell at worst.