You're forgetting something key in all this. Bajorans came along and joined the Maquis later, out of common cause with their shared enemy, but the original Maquis were not Bajorans. They were Native Americans! After getting their land stolen from them and their tribes wiped out in the largest and most brutal act of genocide in our planet's history, they moved on and found a new world to settle. They had a new land to restart their culture on.
Then a bunch of white mother****ers come along and say "well, sorry but we gave your new land to our enemy in a peace negotiation so you gotta move". How DARE they? No damned wonder they went to war! Wouldn't you? If you have even a drop of Native blood in you, you know whose side was right. Picard was a coward who betrayed the people of that world, people who were damned well OWED due to the immense historical crimes they had suffered. He was spineless and without principle or respect for justice, unwilling to stand for principle. You don't sell out everything you claim to stand for because you're terrified of having to fight. Some principles are worth fighting for, and worth dying for if need be.
Kirk would have understood that and he'd have damned well found another solution. He'd have stood up to the Cardassians and said no, this world must be taken out of the settlement, we have to renegotiate. He'd have fought if he had to. Because right and wrong are not matters of convenience.
Picard will always be the coward who sold out that world, caused a rebellion, and still didn't prevent a war with the Cardassians who were not about to respect any agreement with a foe who had no backbone and no willingness to stand up for it's own people. You do not negotiate from a position of weakness, you do nothing but signal to the other side that they can walk all over you. And the Cardassians, lacking any respect for the Federation due to Picard's weakness, simply bode their time and attacked when it was convenient for them. There was no deterrent against it, not when the Federation was so weak and terrified.
All those deaths are on Picard's head, because he only ever had any backbone or respect for the principles he liked to spout when it came to the Borg. Every other time he surrendered the first chance he got, and millions of lives were lost as a consequence.
Your justification only demonizes the Maquis even more and does nothing to change the fact that this battle was between the Cardassians and the Bajorans. The Federation had no authority to intervene and, therefore, can not be held responsible.
I posted this in another thread and it fits in here also. Intelligence officers in the CIA/MI6 are not the same as Intelligence Officers in the Navy and Starfleet.
Here is the what an intelligence officer would do aboard a star ship:
(Technically this is all the Operations Officer's job but its not like Star Trek to follow what the actual military does)
Starfleet is sending your ship to do a six month patrol of Beta Ursae. They want you out there to be able to stop bad things from happening and to 'wave the flag'/ conduct diplomatic duties with the various planets there.
The Intell officer would get a briefing from Starfleet Intell on friends and foes in the area as well as potential friends and foes about to pop up. He'd also get a pretty extensive mission packet on every planet in the sector.
A day before the ship is about to cross into Beta Ursae the Intell officer would brief the 'need to know' crew about the politics of Beta Ursae...the estimated distances to DS9 incase of emergency on any leg of the deployment, the political atmosphere of Bajor and Cardassia, Starfleet regs about the wormhole, planets to avoid...like the one planet where the new link is on....then the possible threat levels posed by True Way and The Marquis. Example: As of this briefing the True Way has 10 battle cruisers....and then a briefing on the commanders of each ship, capabilities and possible countermeasures.
Then once inside Beta Ursae the Intell officer would give a daily brief to the Captain about current events..."Marquis agents stole self stealing stem bolts from DS9...which may mean they are repairing their ships or gearing up for an attack"
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The Federation sacrificed all of those colony worlds rather then stand up for the individuals living there. They were not even the Federation's worlds to give. They simply just gave them away. And I will not even go into the fact that these colonists were Native American Indians who had their lands taken away from them by the US Government time and time again throughout history - which is why they left the Earth to go and find their own place in the universe that no one could ever take from them.
It is also important to keep in mind that the Federation treachery caused a skism within the Federation, and that is why so many Federation citizens joined the Marquis: people like Ro and Riker. The Federation was supposed to be about upholding their ideals but they proved they would sacrifice anyone if under pressure. Rather then trying to find a new diplomatic solution with the Cardassians they simply gathered weapons and prepared to imprison the colonists - all under the guise of it being for their own good.
As I said above, I do not believe you would have any love for your city/state/country if they broke into your house with weapons and forced you to go and live in another place in the world. I mean really, would the Andorians abandoned Andoria without a fight if the Federation showed up with weapons and decided to forcibly move them to a new world? If you cannot see how giving away someone's world without their permission is a bad thing then I do not think there is any point to this discussion.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The Federation sacrificed all of those colony worlds rather then stand up for the individuals living there. They were not even the Federation's worlds to give. They simply just gave them away. And I will not even go into the fact that these colonists were Native American Indians who had their lands taken away from them by the US Government time and time again throughout history - which is why they left the Earth to go and find their own place in the universe that no one could ever take from them.
It is also important to keep in mind that the Federation treachery caused a skism within the Federation, and that is why so many Federation citizens joined the Marquis: people like Ro and Riker. The Federation was supposed to be about upholding their ideals but they proved they would sacrifice anyone if under pressure. Rather then trying to find a new diplomatic solution with the Cardassians they simply gathered weapons and prepared to imprison the colonists - all under the guise of it being for their own good.
As I said above, I do not believe you would have any love for your city/state/country if they broke into your house with weapons and forced you to go and live in another place in the world. I mean really, would the Andorians abandoned Andoria without a fight if the Federation showed up with weapons and decided to forcibly move them to a new world? If you cannot see how giving away someone's world without their permission is a bad thing then I do not think there is any point to this discussion.
You said it yourself, friend. They werent the Federations worlds to give so HOW could they just give them away? The planet rested in Cardassian-controlled space. If anything, it was the Cardassians world. Just because you happen to lay a claim on a piece of rock doesnt mean its automatically yours. Especially when its in someone elses back yard.
Secondly, the conflict between the Cardassian Union and Bajor was none of the Federations business. Their concern was the colonists who had decided to take up residence in the area currently under Cardassian domain. The relocated many, offering assistance to all, but still some decided to remain. The onus is on them, not the Federation.
Again I ask you: if the Federation set aside their precious Prime Directive at will then what, exactly, does it actually stand for? You claim they sacrificed anyone under pressure but that isnt even remotely the case here. Had the Federation involved itself in a conflict between two groups OUTSIDE of the Federations domain not only would it be in direct violation of its own laws and directives but would have undoubtedly involved the Federation and her allies in a war, potentially resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, of not more.
The Maquis knew they couldnt survive in a sustained fight. They had neither the hardware nor the manpower. Thats why it was paramount they alter their tactics and attempt to force the Federations hand into action. That is not righteous or right. That is terrorism at its base.
You sympathise with the Maquis and that is your prerogative, but to continue the delusion that the Federation was in any way responsible for the actions of these individuals is pure slander and rabblerousing. The very tools of the Maquis themselves.
The Federation sacrificed all of those colony worlds rather then stand up for the individuals living there. They were not even the Federation's worlds to give. They simply just gave them away. And I will not even go into the fact that these colonists were Native American Indians who had their lands taken away from them by the US Government time and time again throughout history - which is why they left the Earth to go and find their own place in the universe that no one could ever take from them.
It is also important to keep in mind that the Federation treachery caused a skism within the Federation, and that is why so many Federation citizens joined the Marquis: people like Ro and Riker. The Federation was supposed to be about upholding their ideals but they proved they would sacrifice anyone if under pressure. Rather then trying to find a new diplomatic solution with the Cardassians they simply gathered weapons and prepared to imprison the colonists - all under the guise of it being for their own good.
As I said above, I do not believe you would have any love for your city/state/country if they broke into your house with weapons and forced you to go and live in another place in the world. I mean really, would the Andorians abandoned Andoria without a fight if the Federation showed up with weapons and decided to forcibly move them to a new world? If you cannot see how giving away someone's world without their permission is a bad thing then I do not think there is any point to this discussion.
And don't forget that the Federation, to placate the Cardassians (who, as it turned out were only using the peace to bide their time until their next attack--just as the Maquis said the Cardassians were doing), went after the Maquis time and time again. Giving the Maquis all the more reason to hate the Federation. It has always been my opinion that the Maquis were in the right (and the later Cardassian treachery actually proved it to be so).
The Federation ****ed up big time with that treaty and they only have themselves to blame for the aftermath.
You said it yourself, friend. They weren’t the Federation’s worlds to give… so HOW could they just ‘give them away’? The planet rested in Cardassian-controlled space. If anything, it was the Cardassian’s world. Just because you happen to lay a claim on a piece of rock doesn’t mean it’s automatically yours. Especially when it’s in someone else’s back yard.
Secondly, the conflict between the Cardassian Union and Bajor was none of the Federation’s business. Their concern was the colonists who had decided to take up residence in the area currently under Cardassian domain. The relocated many, offering assistance to all, but still some decided to remain. The onus is on them, not the Federation.
Again I ask you: if the Federation set aside their precious Prime Directive at will then what, exactly, does it actually stand for? You claim they sacrificed anyone under pressure but that isn’t even remotely the case here. Had the Federation involved itself in a conflict between two groups OUTSIDE of the Federation’s domain not only would it be in direct violation of its own laws and directives but would have undoubtedly involved the Federation and her allies in a war, potentially resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, of not more.
The Maquis knew they couldn’t survive in a sustained fight. They had neither the hardware nor the manpower. That’s why it was paramount they alter their tactics and attempt to force the Federation’s hand into action. That is not righteous or “right”. That is terrorism at its base.
You sympathise with the Maquis and that is your prerogative, but to continue the delusion that the Federation was in any way responsible for the actions of these individuals is pure slander and rabblerousing. The very tools of the Maquis themselves.
The planets were not in Cardassian controlled space. The planets were in the zones the Federation gave the Cardassians as part of a peace treaty. The Federation decided that Cardassia gets worlds A, B, and C and that the Federation gets worlds D, E, and F. They never even bothered to ask the citizens living their before making the deal. They just showed up and told them to move.
And let me make this strait, as you seem confused. The only person talking about the Bajor/Cardassian war is you. All I stated was that the Marquis were like the Bajorans: freedom fighters fighting against a larger empire for the existence of their culture. I was making a comparison between two groups of rebels who are extremely similar. I never once said the Federation should get involved with the Bajor/Cardassia war. That was all you.
So I will simply say it again, there is no way that giving away their homeworld was not the Federation's fault. The Marquis certainly did not give away their planet.
Anyway, I am done with the debate as it is going nowhere. Feel free to get the last word in.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
First of all Chakotay was in the Maquis for little more than three years. he quit in Starfleet in 2368(as noted in 5x04) and "Caretaker" takes place in 2371. He was 39 when he quit Starfleet, 42 when VOY started and 49 when it ended (same age as Robert Beltran). Doing the math, the man is 81 years old from an in-game persepctive.
Two seconds after he put that uniform back on, he went back to being a Starfleet officer. the moment one of his people stepped out of line, he was ready to toss them in the brig. He only left Starfleet to do what it couldn't let him.
The only reason Starfleet even tried to stop the Maquis was to keep them from antagonizing the Kardashians...I mean the Cardassians to the point of war. Sisko's reaction to Eddington more based on the duty of an officer to his superiors and to his government. He was also POed because he felt that a man who he considered a friend betrayed him.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
The only reason Starfleet even tried to stop the Maquis was to keep them from antagonizing the Kardashians...I mean the Cardassians to the point of war.
Just too bad that the Cardassians were planning to start the war again anyway, Maquis or no Maquis.
Then a bunch of white mother****ers come along and say "well, sorry but we gave your new land to our enemy in a peace negotiation so you gotta move". How DARE they? No damned wonder they went to war! Wouldn't you? If you have even a drop of Native blood in you, you know whose side was right. Picard was a coward who betrayed the people of that world,.
Are you roleplaying?
Because you certainly could make a convincing extremist. Just like the guy that considers Chakotay a traitor and Maquis member forever, regardless of what he did in the mean time.
If you're not roleplaying, I just leave this as an excercise to the reader why extremism is bad and cannot help us solve human conflicts, only create more strife and suffering.
The Federation's choice to abandon these colonies was certainly not a popular one, but if the alternative was a continued war - Why is a war that would cost millions of life preferable?
The planets were not in Cardassian controlled space. The planets were in the zones the Federation gave the Cardassians as part of a peace treaty. The Federation decided that Cardassia gets worlds A, B, and C and that the Federation gets worlds D, E, and F. They never even bothered to ask the citizens living their before making the deal. They just showed up and told them to move.
Where do you get all these information?
1) If the colonies where not even the Federation to give away, that seems to imply that they are not part of the Federation. Why should the Federation even protect them from the Cardassians?
That makes no sense.
The colonies where part of the Federation, and there is no reason to believe that the Federation violated its own laws. You may find the law inconvenient, but if the law allows giving up territory for a peace treaty, that's a law you agreed to by being part of the Federatino. If you want to ignore that law, you are free so as a now independent colony, but you're also free of all the privileges (like Starfleet protection).
Keep in mind we're talking about a colony, not the homeworld of a member species.
2) Why do you assume that the Cardassians hadn't good reasons to continue this territory their own, and it just happened that some humans started colonizing when the Cardies weren't looking?
We don't know much about when Cardassian and Federation met and since when they were aware of each others territories.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
One thing I found irritating in STO, in the Federation storyline, is that you're given several missions by Section 31, and only in the last of several such missions are you given the option to say that you reject working with Section 31 -- of course, that doesn't make any difference, and at that point, you already have several times. Someone not paying close attention to the exposition, and who wasn't thoroughly familiar with the last season of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 or the few episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise in which Section 31 played a role, might have assumed that Section 31 simply was Starfleet Intelligence.
The little we hear of Starfleet Intelligence in the series, and a point made explicitly in an STO mission, is that Starfleet Intelligence operates within the bounds of the laws of the Federation... but, it operates in ethical gray areas more than other agencies. See, for instance, Star Trek: Deep Space 9, "In the Pale Moonlight", when Starfleet Intelligence authorized a disinformation campaign (a.k.a., lying) to convince a Romulan senator that the Dominion was planning an invasion of the Romulan Star Empire.
In general, we're given the impression that the Federation is the best sort of government that one could hope for in the setting, but the possibility exists for its ideals to be betrayed, bypassed, or forgotten. Many episodes of each Star Trek series feature the protagonists contending with members of the Federation who are tempted to or are in the process of abusing their authority and undermining the values of the Federation. (Honestly, they overdo it with Starfleet admirals.) This goes farthest with Star Trek: Deep Space 9, in which we have the introduction of Section 31.
Also, not incidentally, Star Trek: Deep Space 9 introduced the Maquis, and I think the narrative point of them was to have a look at the consequences of the Federation making a really difficult diplomatic decision -- in fact, I think we're supposed to question whether it was the right decision at all. Similarly, I believe we're supposed to sympathize with the Maquis, even if we question some of their actions. And we saw more than enough of Chakotay to understand that some of the leaders of the Maquis were conscientious and admirable.
I have my own theory about Admiral Chakotay based on the Voyager ep "In The Flesh", the one where they discover 8472's Starfleet Academy/HQ simulation.
The following are facts:
1. When returning to for the first time voyager he was "tested" to see if he had been replaced.
2. When returning to Voyager for the last time after he was captured, he was not tested.
3. Chakotay was critical in negotiating a potential peace between 8472 and Voyager/Fed.
4. Chakotay shared knowing glances with the female 8472 after the peace was reached.
My Conclusion:
8472 killed the original Chakotay and installed a duplicate as Voyager's first officer to gain intel and information about Voyager, the Federation, Starfleet Command and so on.
As he is now the leader of Starfleet Intelligence.... he basically knows everything that the Federation is doing to upset the 8472 and can pass this on to his colleagues so that they can plan to counter them.
So basically, Chakotay is an Undine in Native American clothing.
One thing I found irritating in STO, in the Federation storyline, is that you're given several missions by Section 31, and only in the last of several such missions are you given the option to say that you reject working with Section 31 -- of course, that doesn't make any difference, and at that point, you already have several times. Someone not paying close attention to the exposition, and who wasn't thoroughly familiar with the last season of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 or the few episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise in which Section 31 played a role, might have assumed that Section 31 simply was Starfleet Intelligence.
You could be on to something, there. From S31's perspective, their ideal agents wouldn't even know they're working for S31. They'd just get a seemingly-legit assignment from one of the Captains or Admirals in S31's pocket, carry out the mission, and Bob's your uncle. In fact, that's how we officially met Franklin Drake in the original version of "Under the Cover of Night."
S31 shouldn't be revealing itself to an officer unless they're looking to recruit that officer full-time, as they were with Bashir.
The little we hear of Starfleet Intelligence in the series, and a point made explicitly in an STO mission, is that Starfleet Intelligence operates within the bounds of the laws of the Federation... but, it operates in ethical gray areas more than other agencies.
For the most part, Starfleet Intelligence in the series provided information to our heroes to allow them to complete legitimate Starfleet operations, as well as the occasional covert op. However, they were also involved in stuff like the Pegasus project, so you're correct in terms of moral grey areas.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Canada has no equavilant to MI-6 or the CIA officially. Unofficially the duties for forgien spying are spread around various aother Agencies and departments, such as the department of forgiegn affairs, CSIS, the Military Intelligence Branch (the equivalant to Starfleet Intelligence), CSE (could also be concidered a segment of Starfleet Intellitence), and at times in Canadian History the RCMP (Mounties). A couple of other federal departments might have some type of Intelligence gathering.
No Section 31 equalivant exists in Canada that I know of.i
However, they were also involved in stuff like the Pegasus project, so you're correct in terms of moral grey areas.
Well, but there were also at least two Admirals in the TNG/DS9 timeline that also did something highly questionable. Or rather, even illegal. So it may just be that there are some people in Starfleet that in their attempt to protect the Federation forget the values that make it worth protecting.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, but there were also at least two Admirals in the TNG/DS9 timeline that also did something highly questionable. Or rather, even illegal. So it may just be that there are some people in Starfleet that in their attempt to protect the Federation forget the values that make it worth protecting.
Every barrel's got bad apples. That doesn't necessarily make the entire orchard rotten, it just means you need to improve quality control.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Every barrel's got bad apples. That doesn't necessarily make the entire orchard rotten, it just means you need to improve quality control.
Yes. And the same applies for Starfleet Intelligence - there are some rotten apples that build phase cloaks. Others just try to stop a Orion Syndicate aided assassination attempt.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Canada has no equavilant to MI-6 or the CIA officially. Unofficially the duties for forgien spying are spread around various aother Agencies and departments, such as the department of forgiegn affairs, CSIS, the Military Intelligence Branch (the equivalant to Starfleet Intelligence), CSE (could also be concidered a segment of Starfleet Intellitence), and at times in Canadian History the RCMP (Mounties).
From my knowledge of Canadian Government, I'm pretty sure that CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service) is the official "spy agency" of Canada. They quite openly state that they operate both overtly and covertly for Canada's security.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I posted this in another thread and it fits in here also. Intelligence officers in the CIA/MI6 are not the same as Intelligence Officers in the Navy and Starfleet.
Here is the what an intelligence officer would do aboard a star ship:
(Technically this is all the Operations Officer's job but its not like Star Trek to follow what the actual military does)
Starfleet is sending your ship to do a six month patrol of Beta Ursae. They want you out there to be able to stop bad things from happening and to 'wave the flag'/ conduct diplomatic duties with the various planets there.
The Intell officer would get a briefing from Starfleet Intell on friends and foes in the area as well as potential friends and foes about to pop up. He'd also get a pretty extensive mission packet on every planet in the sector.
A day before the ship is about to cross into Beta Ursae the Intell officer would brief the 'need to know' crew about the politics of Beta Ursae...the estimated distances to DS9 incase of emergency on any leg of the deployment, the political atmosphere of Bajor and Cardassia, Starfleet regs about the wormhole, planets to avoid...like the one planet where the new link is on....then the possible threat levels posed by True Way and The Marquis. Example: As of this briefing the True Way has 10 battle cruisers....and then a briefing on the commanders of each ship, capabilities and possible countermeasures.
Then once inside Beta Ursae the Intell officer would give a daily brief to the Captain about current events..."Marquis agents stole self stealing stem bolts from DS9...which may mean they are repairing their ships or gearing up for an attack"
Thank you. This has been annoying me, callign them the equiv of the CIA. We've seen at least 3 Starfleet intelligence officers -- Commander Burgess, Lt VanZyl, and Kyle DeSoto and they all work FOR Starfleet and wear Starfleet uniforms. It's obvious it's the same way there as it is in the regular US military.
It's important to make the distinction because it confirms the intel officers on the bridge are in your ships's chain of command, they aren't political officers or James Bond or Drake's henchmen, they are YOUR crew.
You could be on to something, there. From S31's perspective, their ideal agents wouldn't even know they're working for S31. They'd just get a seemingly-legit assignment from one of the Captains or Admirals in S31's pocket, carry out the mission, and Bob's your uncle. In fact, that's how we officially met Franklin Drake in the original version of "Under the Cover of Night."
S31 shouldn't be revealing itself to an officer unless they're looking to recruit that officer full-time, as they were with Bashir.
Well, based on Franklin Drake's behavior at the end of "Suspect," that practically seems to come across as his goal.
actually I would liken SFI to the FBI and Section 31 to the CIA.
the FBI do investigations and even go undercover but for the most part respect the law.
the CIA on the other hand has been known to have created and operated drug trade, weapons trade and even create operations in which they endanger people to serve the interests of the ideal of America.
I would say that SFI and Section 31 respectively follow these descriptions, the only difference is that the CIA is a semi-recognized entity.
Thank you. This has been annoying me, callign them the equiv of the CIA. We've seen at least 3 Starfleet intelligence officers -- Commander Burgess, Lt VanZyl, and Kyle DeSoto and they all work FOR Starfleet and wear Starfleet uniforms. It's obvious it's the same way there as it is in the regular US military.
It's important to make the distinction because it confirms the intel officers on the bridge are in your ships's chain of command, they aren't political officers or James Bond or Drake's henchmen, they are YOUR crew.
Yes and we have seen Multiple S.I. agents at least one of whom, was an undercover field operative's in the TV shows, http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chadwick In DS9 and Gannet Brooks in ENT
Both of whom are officially sacntioned operatives of Starfleet Intelligence, So yes they do the job's that MI6 or similar Agnency would do. In addition to Navel Intelligence.
Its safe to assume that Starfleet Intellignece , which is itself devided into multiple Divisions handles both Covert Ops and the more familiar Naval Intelligence roles.
Its the Department of Starfleet that handles Internal Affairs as well.
Starfleet Intelligence is simply an Umbrella term for the various Divisions and departments handling everything from Recruiting Double Agents in the Tal Shiar to gathering Intel on enemy fleet movements in a sector.
Oh and this is the short description on the intro for the new Operative Gear : "Starfleet Intelligence has prepared this briefing to familiarize Starfleet Operatives with [B]a new suite of equipment, designed specifically for subterfuge!"[/B]
that lastpart is pretty explicit in what its meant for
So these New officers, Are they going to be Operatives , probably not, They are Intelligence Officers a different position, but make no mistake Starfleet Intelligence Has and makes use of Undercover operatives for various purposes.
Some of which may not be overseen or even known about by Starfleet Command E.g The pegasus Incident
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
This has me wanting to jump into the maquis debate.
First as of the treaty agreed upon by Picard and the Cardassians there was no maquis. The colonists not wishing to leave the homes they had built agreed to be governed by the Cardassian Union. The Cardassian colonies would be tended by the Federation.
The Federation kept the word of the treaty caring for the colonies under it's control. Meanwhile the Cardassian Union was lowering aid to the planets in its own area. While at the same time smuggling weapons to their own people. The Cardassians sabotaged and killed on the colonies. It took one of the first acts of terrorism to even get the Federation attention to the issue. And the response was to disavow the maquis and sue for peace at all costs.
The Federation refused any and all aid to anyone with maquis affiliation. Those with aggressive tendencies were watched. Infiltrated if possible and brought down. One such group went missing and the USS Voyager was sent to find them assuming a new maquis staging area. Once stranded in the delta quadrant Chakotay agreed to have his crew join the Federation crew under Starfleet discipline. And he kept to the duties of a Starfleet officer.
Back in the Alpha quadrant the maquis were still a thorn. Eddington adding skill to their rage. With the pressure of the overt Klingons and the covert maquis, the cardassians joined with the Dominion. From there they were able to slaughter the maquis all the way back to the federation's arms.
No party involved was totally innocent.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
Your justification only demonizes the Maquis even more and does nothing to change the fact that this battle was between the Cardassians and the Bajorans. The Federation had no authority to intervene and, therefore, can not be held responsible.
Here is the what an intelligence officer would do aboard a star ship:
(Technically this is all the Operations Officer's job but its not like Star Trek to follow what the actual military does)
Starfleet is sending your ship to do a six month patrol of Beta Ursae. They want you out there to be able to stop bad things from happening and to 'wave the flag'/ conduct diplomatic duties with the various planets there.
The Intell officer would get a briefing from Starfleet Intell on friends and foes in the area as well as potential friends and foes about to pop up. He'd also get a pretty extensive mission packet on every planet in the sector.
A day before the ship is about to cross into Beta Ursae the Intell officer would brief the 'need to know' crew about the politics of Beta Ursae...the estimated distances to DS9 incase of emergency on any leg of the deployment, the political atmosphere of Bajor and Cardassia, Starfleet regs about the wormhole, planets to avoid...like the one planet where the new link is on....then the possible threat levels posed by True Way and The Marquis. Example: As of this briefing the True Way has 10 battle cruisers....and then a briefing on the commanders of each ship, capabilities and possible countermeasures.
Then once inside Beta Ursae the Intell officer would give a daily brief to the Captain about current events..."Marquis agents stole self stealing stem bolts from DS9...which may mean they are repairing their ships or gearing up for an attack"
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
It is also important to keep in mind that the Federation treachery caused a skism within the Federation, and that is why so many Federation citizens joined the Marquis: people like Ro and Riker. The Federation was supposed to be about upholding their ideals but they proved they would sacrifice anyone if under pressure. Rather then trying to find a new diplomatic solution with the Cardassians they simply gathered weapons and prepared to imprison the colonists - all under the guise of it being for their own good.
As I said above, I do not believe you would have any love for your city/state/country if they broke into your house with weapons and forced you to go and live in another place in the world. I mean really, would the Andorians abandoned Andoria without a fight if the Federation showed up with weapons and decided to forcibly move them to a new world? If you cannot see how giving away someone's world without their permission is a bad thing then I do not think there is any point to this discussion.
You said it yourself, friend. They werent the Federations worlds to give so HOW could they just give them away? The planet rested in Cardassian-controlled space. If anything, it was the Cardassians world. Just because you happen to lay a claim on a piece of rock doesnt mean its automatically yours. Especially when its in someone elses back yard.
Secondly, the conflict between the Cardassian Union and Bajor was none of the Federations business. Their concern was the colonists who had decided to take up residence in the area currently under Cardassian domain. The relocated many, offering assistance to all, but still some decided to remain. The onus is on them, not the Federation.
Again I ask you: if the Federation set aside their precious Prime Directive at will then what, exactly, does it actually stand for? You claim they sacrificed anyone under pressure but that isnt even remotely the case here. Had the Federation involved itself in a conflict between two groups OUTSIDE of the Federations domain not only would it be in direct violation of its own laws and directives but would have undoubtedly involved the Federation and her allies in a war, potentially resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, of not more.
The Maquis knew they couldnt survive in a sustained fight. They had neither the hardware nor the manpower. Thats why it was paramount they alter their tactics and attempt to force the Federations hand into action. That is not righteous or right. That is terrorism at its base.
You sympathise with the Maquis and that is your prerogative, but to continue the delusion that the Federation was in any way responsible for the actions of these individuals is pure slander and rabblerousing. The very tools of the Maquis themselves.
And don't forget that the Federation, to placate the Cardassians (who, as it turned out were only using the peace to bide their time until their next attack--just as the Maquis said the Cardassians were doing), went after the Maquis time and time again. Giving the Maquis all the more reason to hate the Federation. It has always been my opinion that the Maquis were in the right (and the later Cardassian treachery actually proved it to be so).
The Federation ****ed up big time with that treaty and they only have themselves to blame for the aftermath.
And let me make this strait, as you seem confused. The only person talking about the Bajor/Cardassian war is you. All I stated was that the Marquis were like the Bajorans: freedom fighters fighting against a larger empire for the existence of their culture. I was making a comparison between two groups of rebels who are extremely similar. I never once said the Federation should get involved with the Bajor/Cardassia war. That was all you.
So I will simply say it again, there is no way that giving away their homeworld was not the Federation's fault. The Marquis certainly did not give away their planet.
Anyway, I am done with the debate as it is going nowhere. Feel free to get the last word in.
Sphygnomenometer
If I'm going to get a last word, might as well have fun with it!
Marquis ≠ Maquis
(this bothered me while reading the whole thread)
LOL
The Maquis de Sade! A group of sadomasochistic guerrillas!
Two seconds after he put that uniform back on, he went back to being a Starfleet officer. the moment one of his people stepped out of line, he was ready to toss them in the brig. He only left Starfleet to do what it couldn't let him.
The only reason Starfleet even tried to stop the Maquis was to keep them from antagonizing the Kardashians...I mean the Cardassians to the point of war. Sisko's reaction to Eddington more based on the duty of an officer to his superiors and to his government. He was also POed because he felt that a man who he considered a friend betrayed him.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Just too bad that the Cardassians were planning to start the war again anyway, Maquis or no Maquis.
Because you certainly could make a convincing extremist. Just like the guy that considers Chakotay a traitor and Maquis member forever, regardless of what he did in the mean time.
If you're not roleplaying, I just leave this as an excercise to the reader why extremism is bad and cannot help us solve human conflicts, only create more strife and suffering.
The Federation's choice to abandon these colonies was certainly not a popular one, but if the alternative was a continued war - Why is a war that would cost millions of life preferable?
Where do you get all these information?
1) If the colonies where not even the Federation to give away, that seems to imply that they are not part of the Federation. Why should the Federation even protect them from the Cardassians?
That makes no sense.
The colonies where part of the Federation, and there is no reason to believe that the Federation violated its own laws. You may find the law inconvenient, but if the law allows giving up territory for a peace treaty, that's a law you agreed to by being part of the Federatino. If you want to ignore that law, you are free so as a now independent colony, but you're also free of all the privileges (like Starfleet protection).
Keep in mind we're talking about a colony, not the homeworld of a member species.
2) Why do you assume that the Cardassians hadn't good reasons to continue this territory their own, and it just happened that some humans started colonizing when the Cardies weren't looking?
We don't know much about when Cardassian and Federation met and since when they were aware of each others territories.
One thing I found irritating in STO, in the Federation storyline, is that you're given several missions by Section 31, and only in the last of several such missions are you given the option to say that you reject working with Section 31 -- of course, that doesn't make any difference, and at that point, you already have several times. Someone not paying close attention to the exposition, and who wasn't thoroughly familiar with the last season of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 or the few episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise in which Section 31 played a role, might have assumed that Section 31 simply was Starfleet Intelligence.
The little we hear of Starfleet Intelligence in the series, and a point made explicitly in an STO mission, is that Starfleet Intelligence operates within the bounds of the laws of the Federation... but, it operates in ethical gray areas more than other agencies. See, for instance, Star Trek: Deep Space 9, "In the Pale Moonlight", when Starfleet Intelligence authorized a disinformation campaign (a.k.a., lying) to convince a Romulan senator that the Dominion was planning an invasion of the Romulan Star Empire.
In general, we're given the impression that the Federation is the best sort of government that one could hope for in the setting, but the possibility exists for its ideals to be betrayed, bypassed, or forgotten. Many episodes of each Star Trek series feature the protagonists contending with members of the Federation who are tempted to or are in the process of abusing their authority and undermining the values of the Federation. (Honestly, they overdo it with Starfleet admirals.) This goes farthest with Star Trek: Deep Space 9, in which we have the introduction of Section 31.
Also, not incidentally, Star Trek: Deep Space 9 introduced the Maquis, and I think the narrative point of them was to have a look at the consequences of the Federation making a really difficult diplomatic decision -- in fact, I think we're supposed to question whether it was the right decision at all. Similarly, I believe we're supposed to sympathize with the Maquis, even if we question some of their actions. And we saw more than enough of Chakotay to understand that some of the leaders of the Maquis were conscientious and admirable.
The following are facts:
1. When returning to for the first time voyager he was "tested" to see if he had been replaced.
2. When returning to Voyager for the last time after he was captured, he was not tested.
3. Chakotay was critical in negotiating a potential peace between 8472 and Voyager/Fed.
4. Chakotay shared knowing glances with the female 8472 after the peace was reached.
My Conclusion:
8472 killed the original Chakotay and installed a duplicate as Voyager's first officer to gain intel and information about Voyager, the Federation, Starfleet Command and so on.
As he is now the leader of Starfleet Intelligence.... he basically knows everything that the Federation is doing to upset the 8472 and can pass this on to his colleagues so that they can plan to counter them.
So basically, Chakotay is an Undine in Native American clothing.
You could be on to something, there. From S31's perspective, their ideal agents wouldn't even know they're working for S31. They'd just get a seemingly-legit assignment from one of the Captains or Admirals in S31's pocket, carry out the mission, and Bob's your uncle. In fact, that's how we officially met Franklin Drake in the original version of "Under the Cover of Night."
S31 shouldn't be revealing itself to an officer unless they're looking to recruit that officer full-time, as they were with Bashir.
For the most part, Starfleet Intelligence in the series provided information to our heroes to allow them to complete legitimate Starfleet operations, as well as the occasional covert op. However, they were also involved in stuff like the Pegasus project, so you're correct in terms of moral grey areas.
No Section 31 equalivant exists in Canada that I know of.i
Well, but there were also at least two Admirals in the TNG/DS9 timeline that also did something highly questionable. Or rather, even illegal. So it may just be that there are some people in Starfleet that in their attempt to protect the Federation forget the values that make it worth protecting.
Every barrel's got bad apples. That doesn't necessarily make the entire orchard rotten, it just means you need to improve quality control.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
From my knowledge of Canadian Government, I'm pretty sure that CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service) is the official "spy agency" of Canada. They quite openly state that they operate both overtly and covertly for Canada's security.
If you knew of them, they wouldn't be a very good black-ops group, would they?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Thank you. This has been annoying me, callign them the equiv of the CIA. We've seen at least 3 Starfleet intelligence officers -- Commander Burgess, Lt VanZyl, and Kyle DeSoto and they all work FOR Starfleet and wear Starfleet uniforms. It's obvious it's the same way there as it is in the regular US military.
It's important to make the distinction because it confirms the intel officers on the bridge are in your ships's chain of command, they aren't political officers or James Bond or Drake's henchmen, they are YOUR crew.
Well, based on Franklin Drake's behavior at the end of "Suspect," that practically seems to come across as his goal.
the FBI do investigations and even go undercover but for the most part respect the law.
the CIA on the other hand has been known to have created and operated drug trade, weapons trade and even create operations in which they endanger people to serve the interests of the ideal of America.
I would say that SFI and Section 31 respectively follow these descriptions, the only difference is that the CIA is a semi-recognized entity.
Yes and we have seen Multiple S.I. agents at least one of whom, was an undercover field operative's in the TV shows, http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Chadwick In DS9 and Gannet Brooks in ENT
Both of whom are officially sacntioned operatives of Starfleet Intelligence, So yes they do the job's that MI6 or similar Agnency would do. In addition to Navel Intelligence.
Its safe to assume that Starfleet Intellignece , which is itself devided into multiple Divisions handles both Covert Ops and the more familiar Naval Intelligence roles.
Its the Department of Starfleet that handles Internal Affairs as well.
Starfleet Intelligence is simply an Umbrella term for the various Divisions and departments handling everything from Recruiting Double Agents in the Tal Shiar to gathering Intel on enemy fleet movements in a sector.
Oh and this is the short description on the intro for the new Operative Gear :
"Starfleet Intelligence has prepared this briefing to familiarize Starfleet Operatives with [B]a new suite of equipment, designed specifically for subterfuge!"[/B]
that lastpart is pretty explicit in what its meant for
So these New officers, Are they going to be Operatives , probably not, They are Intelligence Officers a different position, but make no mistake Starfleet Intelligence Has and makes use of Undercover operatives for various purposes.
Some of which may not be overseen or even known about by Starfleet Command E.g The pegasus Incident
First as of the treaty agreed upon by Picard and the Cardassians there was no maquis. The colonists not wishing to leave the homes they had built agreed to be governed by the Cardassian Union. The Cardassian colonies would be tended by the Federation.
The Federation kept the word of the treaty caring for the colonies under it's control. Meanwhile the Cardassian Union was lowering aid to the planets in its own area. While at the same time smuggling weapons to their own people. The Cardassians sabotaged and killed on the colonies. It took one of the first acts of terrorism to even get the Federation attention to the issue. And the response was to disavow the maquis and sue for peace at all costs.
The Federation refused any and all aid to anyone with maquis affiliation. Those with aggressive tendencies were watched. Infiltrated if possible and brought down. One such group went missing and the USS Voyager was sent to find them assuming a new maquis staging area. Once stranded in the delta quadrant Chakotay agreed to have his crew join the Federation crew under Starfleet discipline. And he kept to the duties of a Starfleet officer.
Back in the Alpha quadrant the maquis were still a thorn. Eddington adding skill to their rage. With the pressure of the overt Klingons and the covert maquis, the cardassians joined with the Dominion. From there they were able to slaughter the maquis all the way back to the federation's arms.
No party involved was totally innocent.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
ahh, I love Cryptic!