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PvP implications of new Intelligence boff abilities

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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    There is also another Subnuke doff under Energy Weapon Officer, a Cardassian. She can remove your buffs via your energy weapon hits. Picture a few fat cruisers with 8 Beams FAW away...

    Someone else mentioned TIF.

    You wonder why it's hard to get PvP queues to pop these days? It's going to be 10 times worse with S10. Not to mention the steep curve via the R&D Schools and etc. It will take a freshly minted Lv 50- 60 players about 4-5 months, if they log on everyday and grind religiously everyday - finally be on par with existing PvP players. Meanwhile, there is always a natural attrition rates of existing player base such that the number of PvP ready players will leave. Hence, the effect on player base with all of the above is a shrinking one. Too steep of a curve will discourage new entrants, meanwhile, existing ones will start leaving and dwindle. While the short term effect will look nice on the new packs sale and etc., in the long run, it is concerning for the health of STO as a viable franchise, at least as far as PvP is concerned.

    That doff was OP then fixed and it worked well until fleet shields. Now the doff strips one buff off the shield which is instantly replaced. Because a fleet shield buff is 30 seconds it will be the buff striped by the AOE subnuke meaning it will be worthless against anyone with a fleet shield just like the subnuke doff is.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    scurry5 wrote: »
    Hmm....do Leech/MACO Power stacks count?

    MACO power stacks I dunno. But Leech power stacks technically last only one second if memory serves, so they stay up as long as you keep firing. Or even if it is a bit longer, say 5 seconds each, still shorter than RSP.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Might also just be that your enemy has Aux2Damp running and is immune to your PSW stunning him ... ?

    snip ...

    No i m talking about the nerfs to the original power PSW, not AU2damp counter. Ie, there is a stun immunity which was added around 5-6 seasons back, and the stun duration was reduced to a mere fraction of its original duration ca. 4 seasons back. So was the kinetic damage but i digress. Aux2damp has nothing to do with the fact that you can no longer stun lock players indefinitely (granted that required some piloting)

    Aux2damp only helps if its active when hit.

    Unlike the buy the pack get some buff stripping instead of APO3 AUX2SIF3, or GW3 stuff, we have shield strippting science powers, we also hae stun powers, but they are nerfed into oblivion. Which is another poitn i hate about the idea of SNB wave.

    If our original powers would work against elite fleet shields, CPB3 might actually be useful for something other then decloaking rommies, without giving up on HE3. Which is what the PvP forums have been screaming at cryptic for like what 2 years now? Get SNB wave or gtf is not a solution to the problem, neither is buy a 120$ pack or don't expect torps to do something.

    I don;t share hus' optimism here at all. I can't think of a single CMDR ability profession combi that i wouldn't switch for SNB wave and reshuffle the rest, especially with a 13th slot to compensate.

    So eng ship (note how only feds have the full set of sci, eng, and tac options at start.
    cmdr: AUX2sif3, ET3, EPTS2 EPTA1
    ens: et1
    we can have something like
    cmd: SNB wave aux2sif2 epts2 epta1
    lt: et1 ES1


  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    There is also another Subnuke doff under Energy Weapon Officer, a Cardassian. She can remove your buffs via your energy weapon hits. Picture a few fat cruisers with 8 Beams FAW away...

    Someone else mentioned TIF.

    You wonder why it's hard to get PvP queues to pop these days? It's going to be 10 times worse with S10. Not to mention the steep curve via the R&D Schools and etc. It will take a freshly minted Lv 50- 60 players about 4-5 months, if they log on everyday and grind religiously everyday - finally be on par with existing PvP players. Meanwhile, there is always a natural attrition rates of existing player base such that the number of PvP ready players will leave. Hence, the effect on player base with all of the above is a shrinking one. Too steep of a curve will discourage new entrants, meanwhile, existing ones will start leaving and dwindle. While the short term effect will look nice on the new packs sale and etc., in the long run, it is concerning for the health of STO as a viable franchise, at least as far as PvP is concerned.

    Actually, if all the current PVPers were would leave or put in an elite pvp que based on gear and dps, than all the noobs would gladly go pvping because there would be no steep learning curve for them.

    Though this was never a PVP game, so its not "viable franchise" concern. It would be if we were talking about Team Fortress. Or Counter Strike.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Actually, if all the current PVPers were would leave or put in an elite pvp que based on gear and dps, than all the noobs would gladly go pvping because there would be no steep learning curve for them.

    Though this was never a PVP game, so its not "viable franchise" concern. It would be if we were talking about Team Fortress. Or Counter Strike.

    Of course none of these games started out with a PvP faction (not my words) to begin with....oh wait.
  • freenos85freenos85 Member Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    havam wrote: »
    No i m talking about the nerfs to the original power PSW, not AU2damp counter. Ie, there is a stun immunity which was added around 5-6 seasons back, and the stun duration was reduced to a mere fraction of its original duration ca. 4 seasons back. So was the kinetic damage but i digress. Aux2damp has nothing to do with the fact that you can no longer stun lock players indefinitely (granted that required some piloting)

    Aux2damp only helps if its active when hit.

    [...]

    If our original powers would work against elite fleet shields, CPB3 might actually be useful for something other then decloaking rommies, without giving up on HE3. Which is what the PvP forums have been screaming at cryptic for like what 2 years now? Get SNB wave or gtf is not a solution to the problem, neither is buy a 120$ pack or don't expect torps to do something.

    I don;t share hus' optimism here at all. I can't think of a single CMDR ability profession combi that i wouldn't switch for SNB wave and reshuffle the rest, especially with a 13th slot to compensate.

    So eng ship (note how only feds have the full set of sci, eng, and tac options at start.
    cmdr: AUX2sif3, ET3, EPTS2 EPTA1
    ens: et1
    we can have something like
    cmd: SNB wave aux2sif2 epts2 epta1
    lt: et1 ES1




    Concerning PSW: I'd rather not have chain-stunning in this game. That said i don't think its underperforming right now. It's still one of the best utility abilities (especially defensively) in the game. The fact that it knock out a target for even a slight amount is still huge.

    Concerning Aux2Damp: This ability can easily have a 100% uptime so the argument "when active" isn't really usable. But i guess you mean after somebody has been SNBed. Chances are still high that he can get his Aux2Damp back up before you PSW him (at least if you haven't been in the target close vicinity beforehand).

    Concerning shield stripping abilities: I'd much rather have those scale to a percentage of the target shields (of course this should be given a hard limit to not make it OP in PvE) then what we have now. This might then actually be an alternative (and we could finally scale back) to this whole shield bypassing shenanigans we have now. In general these abilties could apply a debuff to specific or general shield resists which would make them a lot better.

    Concerning SNBW: I'm not sure what you want to convey with this sentence.
    havam wrote: »

    Unlike the buy the pack get some buff stripping instead of APO3 AUX2SIF3, or GW3 stuff, we have shield strippting science powers, we also hae stun powers, but they are nerfed into oblivion. Which is another poitn i hate about the idea of SNB wave.
    You don't like it because it's too good and would replace all the alternatives? Guess that makes sense.

    BTW: currently the thing just strips 3 buffs off your opponent, so that's not really too usefull considering elite shields are a thing. An unbuffed RSP I only has a 8 sec. duration, so won't be really affected and still usefull as an "oh ****" button.
  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Actually, if all the current PVPers were would leave or put in an elite pvp que based on gear and dps, than all the noobs would gladly go pvping because there would be no steep learning curve for them.

    Though this was never a PVP game, so its not "viable franchise" concern. It would be if we were talking about Team Fortress. Or Counter Strike.

    Well if they left id go from being a PvE hero that dabbles....to the top of the pile :D ........"noobs" going into those queues would not appreciate it......


    *goes back to using kinectic magnet to bomb the borg with their own torpedos*
  • wintiemintiewintiemintie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    illcadia wrote: »
    I forsee five CMDR subnuc aoe 3 aux2bat team for constant subnuc on all enemy combatants, gg devs, because we totally needed AoE subnuc against NPCs who only activate console powers (which are immune to subnuc) and never use any innate powers that matter if they're debuffed. Seriously the only powers any NPC ever activates that can be affected by subnuc are tac buffs.

    One thing alot of people seem to be up in arms about is ships with a2b+doffs with aoe subnuke. But think about it.

    How will the intell boffs work with the t6 seating? I think dev blog said hybridization but need more info. Say, does this mean the boff seat itself can be used for either Tact/Eng/Sci OR an intel boff? Or can intel boffs cross train abilities and have a mix of sci/tact/eng? I highly doubt its the later because honestly that'd be too strong. You could give 1 boff a mix of tact and sci skills and etc.

    So lets say its the former and make an example.

    Lets say. A reg ship atm, I think this is on the bortas as an example seating for a cruiser.

    Lt.Com Tact.
    Com Eng.
    Lt. Com universal
    Lt. Sci

    ^ I think thats correct. Anyhow if its not then it doesn't really matter. Its an example. So say lets adjust these a bit and be generous and give it TWO com seats.

    Lt.Com Tact
    Intel Hybrid Uni Com
    Com. Eng
    lt. Sci

    If you tried to A2B that, you'd only have an ensign and a higher rank eng ability. The lt. and lt.com would require the a2b abilities.

    thats it. 2 eng abilities. dem and eptw? epts? You'd be super, super squishy just so you can get a 3 min base, probably 1.5 minute gcd mini aoe subnuke?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it'd be more lethal on a full on sci captain with intel ship setup for heavy sci.
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    How will the intell boffs work with the t6 seating? I think dev blog said hybridization but need more info. Say, does this mean the boff seat itself can be used for either Tact/Eng/Sci OR an intel boff? Or can intel boffs cross train abilities and have a mix of sci/tact/eng? I highly doubt its the later because honestly that'd be too strong. You could give 1 boff a mix of tact and sci skills and etc.

    Indeed Intel BOFFs have access to Intel and ONE Career: i.e. Intel/Tac and CAN be trained ina mix of those abilities. An Intel/Tac BOFF for instance could carry TT1/BO2/INTEL ABILITY/APO3.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Well if they left id go from being a PvE hero that dabbles....to the top of the pile :D ........"noobs" going into those queues would not appreciate it......


    *goes back to using kinectic magnet to bomb the borg with their own torpedos*

    Having a veteran and a noob pvp que would prevent noobs from getting disillusioned and rolfstomped.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Concerning PSW: I'd rather not have chain-stunning in this game. That said i don't think its underperforming right now. It's still one of the best utility abilities (especially defensively) in the game. The fact that it knock out a target for even a slight amount is still huge.
    It is a defensive ability, where it used to be an offensive ability that was considered op, hence the repeated nerfs. Thats exactly my point. if offensive PSW is still too strong, to give to to TT5-FU ships, how can giving an even better ability be a good idea.
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Concerning Aux2Damp: This ability can easily have a 100% uptime so the argument "when active" isn't really usable. But i guess you mean after somebody has been SNBed. Chances are still high that he can get his Aux2Damp back up before you PSW him (at least if you haven't been in the target close vicinity beforehand).

    well no, it a weak counter, in the sense that it has to be active before psw is applied. Getting 100% uptime has some opportunity cost go with it, but nevertheless i can read a buff bar and decide to use it on a target when AUX2DAMp is not up. Where a strong counter, like HE puts out plasma, at independent of the sequence of activation.
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Concerning shield stripping abilities: I'd much rather have those scale to a percentage of the target shields (of course this should be given a hard limit to not make it OP in PvE) then what we have now. This might then actually be an alternative (and we could finally scale back) to this whole shield bypassing shenanigans we have now. In general these abilties could apply a debuff to specific or general shield resists which would make them a lot better.
    the state of shield stripping is a conversation in its own right. Point is, like PSW, shield stripping abilities have been nerfed and renerfed because they were considered OP. How is SNB wave any better if it can remove the buffs that shield stripping couldn't remove because it would be op?
    freenos85 wrote: »
    Concerning SNBW: I'm not sure what you want to convey with this sentence.

    You don't like it because it's too good and would replace all the alternatives? Guess that makes sense.

    BTW: currently the thing just strips 3 buffs off your opponent, so that's not really too usefull considering elite shields are a thing. An unbuffed RSP I only has a 8 sec. duration, so won't be really affected and still usefull as an "oh ****" button.
    yup thats my main beef.

    5x3 buffs stripped in aoe is still 15 buffs stripped to all targets in range, and not a single SNB was fired.

    I can't see how stun locks are stupid (wich they are) but AOE debuff chains are not???

    This is all assuming none of the new doffs or lockbox abilities will not further enhance intel boff skills, which they almost certainly will.
  • wintiemintiewintiemintie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Indeed Intel BOFFs have access to Intel and ONE Career: i.e. Intel/Tac and CAN be trained ina mix of those abilities. An Intel/Tac BOFF for instance could carry TT1/BO2/INTEL ABILITY/APO3.

    Hrrmm. That does make Intel Boffs pretty strong then. I'm assuming you can slot their attack abilities when even using Engineer abilities too? So ET1/EptW2/EptS3/Transport Warhead for example?
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Hrrmm. That does make Intel Boffs pretty strong then. I'm assuming you can slot their attack abilities when even using Engineer abilities too? So ET1/EptW2/EptS3/Transport Warhead for example?

    Indeed, as I understand it.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Ok. Fine, jeez. I'm tired of all the jumping-to-conclusions going on regarding Subnucleonic Carrier Wave. If you want to complain about something, at least make sure you're accurately informed about its capabilities first, please?

    1) It does not strip all buffs. It removes only a handful, and even then only the ones with a largest remaining duration.
    2) The cooldown debuff is less powerful than even Rank I of Subnucleonic Beam

    It affects up to 5 targets within a 5km range. How frequently do you have >1 target within that perimeter of your ship? And would benefit from removing a handful of active buffs, while applying a temporary cooldown debuff?

    I have a feeling that the feedback regarding this ability may swing sharply in the opposite direction once actual hands-on testing begins.

    While only as you say stripping a handful of buffs, that is still really powerful.

    I mean think of the potential of even losing 25% of all buffs, and what other SubNuc allows for an AOE?

    Oh, let's not forget there is still the regular SuNuc, to follow up on what this AOE might miss!

    And than we have a scramble sensor doff, that equally reduces power timers.

    So between the 3, we could potentially face as high as a +100% boff cd skill debuff, heck might even go higher than that.

    Possibly as high as +150-200% power timer debuff!
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Having a veteran and a noob pvp que would prevent noobs from getting disillusioned and rolfstomped.

    love the idea
  • commanderkassycommanderkassy Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Thats your pve expansion for you. :rolleyes:

    nuke is not needed in pve so clearly they do this just to break pvp even more.

    And this is why I don't play PvP in games that have PvE too. I see this constantly happening in STO and other games, where they add PvE stuff and the PvP just has to bend over and take it repeatedly. Not fun.
    ♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
    It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
  • kerriknightkerriknight Member Posts: 274
    edited September 2014
    While not pertaining to Boff abilities directly, we now have a look at hard stats, seating, innate ship-based Intel powers, exclusive consoles, and a confirmation that Fleet T6 will happen.

    http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7004283
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    And this is why I don't play PvP in games that have PvE too. I see this constantly happening in STO and other games, where they add PvE stuff and the PvP just has to bend over and take it repeatedly. Not fun.

    STO is a pve game to begin with. Maybe a PVP game would be better for you. The upcoming warhammer "MMO" for instance be almost totally pvp.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    STO is a pve game to begin with. Maybe a PVP game would be better for you. The upcoming warhammer "MMO" for instance be almost totally pvp.

    or planetside 2, which is 100% PvP
  • silverserasilversera Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    hmmm guys, about that surgical strike ability is there anyway at all to know if it can be used at the same time as standard weapon abilities?

    Because I looked at the new rom intel ship and damn with that commander intelegence, LtCmr tactical and LtCmr science you actual can slot CSVx2 surgical strike x2 and gravity well!!!

    Imagine the damage a couple voley of DHC [CrtD]x3 boosted by surgical strike and scater volley could do to a pack of ship traped in a grav well?

    Now that would be some seriously nasty pve combo
  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    silversera wrote: »
    hmmm guys, about that surgical strike ability is there anyway at all to know if it can be used at the same time as standard weapon abilities?

    Because I looked at the new rom intel ship and damn with that commander intelegence, LtCmr tactical and LtCmr science you actual can slot CSVx2 surgical strike x2 and gravity well!!!

    Imagine the damage a couple voley of DHC [CrtD]x3 boosted by surgical strike and scater volley could do to a pack of ship traped in a grav well?

    Now that would be some seriously nasty pve combo

    When i looked on tribble, there was no sign of a shared cooldown, but considering it didnt mention ANY of the abilities having a shared CD, it could be an oversight
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    So apparently AoE Subnuc is only clearable by Intelligence team.

    I just have to ask the devs ARE YOU INSANE? No, we know you're insane. But do you hate PVP that much?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2014
    illcadia wrote: »
    So apparently AoE Subnuc is only clearable by Intelligence team.

    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?

    Something related to the Subnuke: I could have sworn I read yesterday that it was a Cmdr only ability, but re-reading it today it's Lieutenant upwards - I seem to remember a post implying that something had been changed about the table in the Intelligence Officer post - did I misremember,was something fixed, or is it now incorrect?
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?

    This is just a cover up of the replicator malfunctions where it is turning all of the human food into cat food.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?
    The only debuffs that Intelligence Team is specifically required to cleanse, are the ones applied by the Intel Ships' "Gather Intel" ship mechanic.

    So is there any counter to Gather Intel that doesn't involve the new boffs and T6 ships?
  • mreeves7amreeves7a Member Posts: 499 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    So is there any counter to Gather Intel that doesn't involve the new boffs and T6 ships?

    Shoot the drones/shuttles/recon craft before they complete the stack of scans on you?
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2014
    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?

    Tribble testers were saying in TTC that it wasn't clearable by any non-intel team power today. Not sure how they're testing it, but apparently they tested it.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    mreeves7a wrote: »
    Shoot the drones/shuttles/recon craft before they complete the stack of scans on you?

    are they destructible?
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • neppakyoneppakyo Member Posts: 245 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I've refuted this claim multiple times already.

    Once: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18998331&postcount=2
    Twice: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19155241&postcount=47

    Whoever is spreading this misinformation, please stop. Pretty please?

    I still think you need to introduce an immunity to subnuc for at least 1 minute to stop the multiple chain of subnucs (and now aoe nuc). I have been in a match with multiple scis, cleared one nuc, and immediatly got nuc'd again, everything on CD so I couldn't attempt to clear the 2nd. If I manage to live through the 2nd nuc, I get hit with a third nuc.

    You have some stupid mechanics that really unbalance PvP. I suggest you sit down with some vetern PvPers and work out a way to balance this game. The power creep you're introducing isn't helping matters either.
    Quote about STO on consoles: "Not quite as bad as No man's sky, but a close second."
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