Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
Actually, I'm in the opvp channel (I THINK i'm still in it anyways, i haven't looked at my channel listing in awhile), been to ker'rat many many times.
there's like at least 5 sections that ether don't need to exist, or could be condensed down
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Another +1 from me, and I probably wouldn't get involved. I do support this for the PvP community though, as the PvE side of the forums are absolutely terrifying most of the time. Just read through the Space Metagame Changes thread and try to resist the urge to slam your head on the nearest hard object, all the while wondering how the PvE heroes haven't ran this game into complete oblivion. Seriously, there are some absolute GEMS in there...
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
well, branflacks was making the calls back during the last reorganization, and he unfortunately didn't trim near enough fat.
like, why does Federation Gameplay, Klingon Gameplay, Romulan Gameplay, Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content and for that mater PvP Gameplay all exist at once? all thats needed is a pve gamplay, and pvp gamplay section. all the ship yard sections are pretty redundant too.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
We do understand that a thread like Minis (small sams) wasn't really a thread that belonged 100% in the PvP section as the description currently states. We do get that... hence the request for a sub section. The thread was ONLY aimed at the PvP community. No one is going to wonder "where is mini max wasn't he supposed to organize that 50 man STF this evening ?" lmao
He made the post knowing that many evenings he is one of the folks leading the 10v10s or Tyler Durden matches that get setup in game... or some open zone battle in kerrat. Or even just chatting in Opvp. He simply wanted folks to know he would return when his situation got fixed. Moving it to 10 forward... is technically the right call the way things are setup right now. No one is saying Askray WTH did you do that. We get 100% why you moved it. Its why Mancom suggested the sub forum. There those types of threads would be noticed by the people they are intended to be seen by.
Earlier I backed up BG only because I can surely see why he/she would be concerned considering some recent forum behaviour perhaps. The OP and most of us supporting him are not asking for a rPvP cage fight section. Simply a section where our slighly off topic (however still very much pvp related) topics can be moved to... or created in, so that they remain relevant. To be honest not having it and moving threads to sections 9000 km away only creates more work for you guys. As people who have there stuff moved simply create new threads, skirting rules and sometimes breaking them. Simply forcing you to take more action. There is no way it makes your lives easier imo. Such a subsection would very likely have minimal activity its true... however if a thread gets moved there at least its into a child section and still easily noticed and responded to.
Don't have any devs on our side...don't have any mods even on our side...hell, the only person on our side is the bloodsucking lawyer!
+1 to the idea.
So sad he died. awesome movie though.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Galactic News Network
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Test servers would remain the same, each broken down into three sections.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not the one who makes the decision. This is just my own somewhat informed opinion.
And I'm of two minds about it.
On the one hand, it's not a totally unreasonable suggestion. It's technically feasible.
But.
First of all, let's talk about the elephant in the room. If some of you are thinking that you'd get your very own subforum where you can trash talk and break normal forum rules, that isn't going to happen. The adversarial nature of many of the 'social' posts in this forum is not acceptable. Moving it somewhere else doesn't make it better.
If you really want your own little corner of the forums to socialize in, some of you need to learn to play nice. PWE has no incentive to encourage more of the same thing that they're trying to put a lid on, and the case for setting up a dedicated subforum is practically doomed from the start.
Secondly, PWE needs to answer the question for itself whether the PvE community needs it's own independent social area and whether that's in their best interests to promote. In other words, why should you guys get different treatment from other members of the community?
/snip
IMO, it boils down to this: Would a PvP-centric social subforum promote the game in a positive light, benefit the PvP community, and be worth any additional forum management necessary?
I'm not at all convinced the answer to that question is 'yes'. It would be great for some of you, if it stayed free of trolls and flames and arguments. But the way things are going and have been for a long time now? Just a lot more closed threads and moderation, I'm afraid.
Again, this is my own personal opinion. I don't make the decision. Make your case and maybe PWE will grant your wish.
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
/slow clap
hear, hear! nothing to add, but may that those "flame-wars" generate interest to be part of em ingame. it attracts to pick a side, to go in there and be part of those glorious battles one can read about on the forums. and if only the people who are interested in pvp in the first place (most of those who are not probably not ever really gonna try it anyways). as for me, i visit kerrat much more often these days than i did before (only used to go there for the daily).
and sure, the rules, but on the other hand all that smack-talk generates interest as well as entertainment (as long as within the rules).
all good things!
I actually started to make a recommendation that we set up a special place with relaxed rules for "smack talk".
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
In contrast to Askray, I'm not dead set against the idea of some kinds of 'social' threads staying put. Mainly I question whether or not an entire subforum is required. Would there be enough traffic in the form of legitimate posts to warrant such a thing? Or would it be one more place where heavy moderation is required?
I hate to even say it, but this might be a case where the PvP Community needs its' own Community-run board. Regardless of what some might think, I don't want to see you guys vanish from this place. I believe you're a valuable part of this community and STO would be the worse if you guys were to disengage.
One alternative idea that we might get support for is a Sticky conversation thread for the kind of special interest posts that Mancom talked about. Those would get posted there or nowhere, and smack talk would not be allowed in it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I actually started to make a recommendation that we set up a special place with relaxed rules for "smack talk".
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
I think that part of the problem is that nobody truly knows what these boundaries are. Since moderation may not be discussed and moderated posts can't be looked up to see what it actually was the got moderated, one cannot learn from previous examples (unless oneself was the offender). I have often come back to threads where I knew I had read all posts in them and seen nothing particularly disturbing and yet suddenly there were moderation edits all over the place.
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
its not like its huge effort to hop from forum to forum, but I guess effort is in short suppy these days
They are asking for another forum to put this stuff in, just under the PvP forum...kind of like a "subforum," as mentioned in the title...
The average PvE hero (RP or not), stays away from the PvP forums, and honestly that's better for us as all they do is whine about PvP and say it should be removed from the game. So giving us a place for this stuff away from their tears, complaints, and trolling is preferred.
The 'TREK BBS' has a MODERATORS ACTIONS Thread that's specific and heavily controlled, for discussion about the "Where's & Why's" of bending/breaking the forum rules.
Perhaps such a thread here, would help to alleviate some of the concerns and explain the rational behind Mod Actions.
If nothing else, it would be a good place to remind folks just what NOT to do if they wish to continue to post here and mostly keep that kind of discussion out of the rest of the Forums.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I think that part of the problem is that nobody truly knows what these boundaries are. Since moderation may not be discussed and moderated posts can't be looked up to see what it actually was the got moderated, one cannot learn from previous examples (unless oneself was the offender). I have often come back to threads where I knew I had read all posts in them and seen nothing particularly disturbing and yet suddenly there were moderation edits all over the place.
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
We know the rules are a bit..grey. And sadly, yes it has to be in some areas. It is a discussion us mod's and managers have had a few times and we're looking at. Maybe we should just have a "discuss moderation/rule things" livestream/podcast/interview :P
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
Honestly, I am on the pvper's side. I WANT more pvp in the game. Hell I'd love open world pvp! (Yes yes I know go play eve yadda yadda). I was tickled pink when those convoy maps popped up and I was allowed to go into them even as a lowbie, start attacking the fed ships and have other captains come warping in to stop me. I LOVED THAT. I WANT that and have said it many times over. I get the whole "oh but you can be griefed" junk but honestly? I went in as a lt cmdr, got beaten down by people way higher than me but had TONS of fun doing it!
Again, I'm not against pvper's getting things. On the contrary, but when it comes down to forum stuff I have a different opinion hehe.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
One alternative idea that we might get support for is a Sticky conversation thread for the kind of special interest posts that Mancom talked about. Those would get posted there or nowhere, and smack talk would not be allowed in it.
This is what I was thinking. There should be a thread with a clever name, probably Ker'rat, where we can carry on with all our "PvP culture." It wouldn't clog up the PvP section, and our culture threads wouldn't have to die in 10F.
This is what I was thinking. There should be a thread with a clever name, probably Ker'rat, where we can carry on with all our "PvP culture." It wouldn't clog up the PvP section, and our culture threads wouldn't have to die in 10F.
I like the idea of a "Ker'rat Comms" thread, with clearly posted rules/guidelines about what goes in it and what's not allowed. Sorry, but I'd have to insist on a "No-Trash" rule. I'd also suggest clearing it out every month or so, so it doesn't grow into a 65 page monster full of out-of-date and out-of-context posts.
Kind of close to what I was originally going to suggest, but with no special provisions for trash talking and throwing zingers around.
If it worked really well, had a decent amount of traffic, and didn't cause problems it could pave the way for a full subforum later on.
I'll bring it up and we'll see. No promises.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This is what I was thinking. There should be a thread with a clever name, probably Ker'rat, where we can carry on with all our "PvP culture." It wouldn't clog up the PvP section, and our culture threads wouldn't have to die in 10F.
Honestly? If you think that's a good definition of why you guys need your own social forum you're not making a strong argument. People that are playing along in that thread, jokingly about temporal mechanics and such, and you jumped on them asking do you pvp?
To ME personally, that's showing whats a strong problem here and why the forums need a lot more structure. As an example; feedback/upcoming matches etc should be the only things allowed in here with everything else in the right forums.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Honestly? If you think that's a good definition of why you guys need your own social forum you're not making a strong argument. People that are playing along in that thread, jokingly about temporal mechanics and such, and you jumped on them asking do you pvp?
To ME personally, that's showing whats a strong problem here and why the forums need a lot more structure. As an example; feedback/upcoming matches etc should be the only things allowed in here with everything else in the right forums.
No, deok is right.
PvE and PvP players are two faces of the same medal. PvErs make RP like being starship captain, frigging starbases and such. To PvPers, and I mean those who PvP all the times and write in this subforum sometimes, that kind of RP makes no sense.
We act like a community, we usually know each other and like to gank ourselves because the other vessel has a person behind the screen that can fire back. When we do it, it's to keep us entertained, have fun. Saying "Punish the FEDs" doesn't mean that Federation players sucks more than KDF, just teasing the other faction and "bring it" in PvP. We make it look like real because it's the way to incite to fight each other.
People in any other subforum will never understand this; that's why we need a place for these talks, even just a topic. With some rules of course, but specific for messing with each other.
Honestly? If you think that's a good definition of why you guys need your own social forum you're not making a strong argument. People that are playing along in that thread, jokingly about temporal mechanics and such, and you jumped on them asking do you pvp?
To ME personally, that's showing whats a strong problem here and why the forums need a lot more structure. As an example; feedback/upcoming matches etc should be the only things allowed in here with everything else in the right forums.
His point is this.
Lets think of of a Real World example that would apply...
Lets say you where hanging out with a couple of your friends. You where old friends and you had plenty of inside jokes that you like to poke each other with. Your all together at a table in a crowed establishment, your in a large social place however you are really interacting with your friends at the table. So you tell a bunch of INSIDE jokes.
Now the owner of this establishment decides he needs more room on the dance floor so he pushes another table full of another group of people together with yours. Now if you keep telling those inside jokes... that new table of people just doesn't get it. There it is hilarity ensues.
It may make a great pilot for a sitcom. Its not a great solution for our forums though.
All these sub forums are like different tables at the same party. Its not that we don't like the people at the other table... and its not that they don't like us. We have somethings in common which is why we are at the same party... however there are also differences which is why one group is sitting at one table and the other is on the other side of the room. We don't mind mingling, but each side has inside jokes and common histories that just go over the others head. Making references like "small sam" or fleet names of past groups of players... or yes Some Kerrat jokes. Just don't go over well at that other table.
This is why we are saying... STOP taking our discussions and sending them over to those other tables where the people sitting there have no CLUE what we are talking about. Your not doing either group a service. Either create a new section... or relax what we are allowed to talk about at our own table.
I know we are not to speak of moderation... I not sure moving a thread counts as such so I think its ok to say this.
Struck again we where talking new ships in riccardos thread... got merged with the big one. The thread in here was 100% about PvP... and PvP only. I know my comments had nothing at all to do with PvE in those ships.... if I wanted to post in the other thread I would have.
yup, i mean its not like cryptic is treating pvp as a regular part of their game anywhere.
Why on earth can we not continue that attitude when talking about the pvp impact of T5U. IN the PvP forums??
When every new season has new pvp content in it, ship, consoles and powers are released not to fight a specific npc enemy but actually balanced with pvp in mind. then maybe we wouldn't need a special corner for conversation. But hi its been a long day, and no matter the freebies tomorrow, the **** storm over the upgrade process will keep the mods busy. So i m willing to cut them some slag today. But it goes to show....they just don't get it, neither does systems, nor will they ever.
Then explain it to them? Make it obvious? I'm not trying to be an TRIBBLE here guys, but if there is ANY part of this forum where other players feel they aren't welcome because those in said forum attack anyone new/make them feel unwelcome then apparently the rules need to be pushed harder.
Bluntly I don't see an entire sub forum being made JUST for 1 group. The PvP bootcamp was an exception because they were pretty much supported by Cryptic and PWE (including in game rewards etc).
This forum is NOT for just you guys to enjoy yourselves, banter etc. This is for pvp feedback and discussion. If it is about the pvp mechanics, builds, setting up matches, discussing matches sure that makes sense.
If it's real life situations (ie pc dying), funny posts that deal with other games (ie the watch dogs thread), basically anything NOT dealing with pvp then it doesn't belong here.
This isn't a social party, this is a community based forum and this is the feedback forum for pvp.
Granted yes, all the above is my own opinion and the CM team may in their own right decide to do it. I will say this thread was plopped to Smirk on twitter so he probably is paying attention to it.
(And btw - it is obvious to us when you make a post and just add pvp to it to say "it's a pvp thread!")
As for the tier 6 discussion - that's my bad. I was hammering at merging a lot of threads and wasn't paying attention where they were.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Making references like "small sam" or fleet names of past groups of players...
The Spanish 7th Dirty Old Wizard Elite Warriors Core have incorporated Pandas and .Section 31. into their Lore in an attempt to gain Glory or Death by fighting the 182nd Warriors of Gre'thor with a Razor and showing them their Crits!
Comments
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
well, branflacks was making the calls back during the last reorganization, and he unfortunately didn't trim near enough fat.
like, why does Federation Gameplay, Klingon Gameplay, Romulan Gameplay, Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content and for that mater PvP Gameplay all exist at once? all thats needed is a pve gamplay, and pvp gamplay section. all the ship yard sections are pretty redundant too.
+1 to the idea.
He made the post knowing that many evenings he is one of the folks leading the 10v10s or Tyler Durden matches that get setup in game... or some open zone battle in kerrat. Or even just chatting in Opvp. He simply wanted folks to know he would return when his situation got fixed. Moving it to 10 forward... is technically the right call the way things are setup right now. No one is saying Askray WTH did you do that. We get 100% why you moved it. Its why Mancom suggested the sub forum. There those types of threads would be noticed by the people they are intended to be seen by.
Earlier I backed up BG only because I can surely see why he/she would be concerned considering some recent forum behaviour perhaps. The OP and most of us supporting him are not asking for a rPvP cage fight section. Simply a section where our slighly off topic (however still very much pvp related) topics can be moved to... or created in, so that they remain relevant. To be honest not having it and moving threads to sections 9000 km away only creates more work for you guys. As people who have there stuff moved simply create new threads, skirting rules and sometimes breaking them. Simply forcing you to take more action. There is no way it makes your lives easier imo. Such a subsection would very likely have minimal activity its true... however if a thread gets moved there at least its into a child section and still easily noticed and responded to.
So sad he died.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Release Notes
Dev Tracker
Ten Forward
Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content
PvP Gameplay
Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
Duty Officer System and R&D
Fleet System and Holdings
Controls, User Interface, and the STO Gateway
The Art of Star Trek Online
C-Store, ZEN, and Promotions
The Foundry for Star Trek Online
Gameplay Bug Reports
PC, Network, and Other Technical Issues
Test servers would remain the same, each broken down into three sections.
Nope, there is no General Discussion...
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I'm glad you got the reference, Askray.
Though my point still stands.
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
/slow clap
hear, hear! nothing to add, but may that those "flame-wars" generate interest to be part of em ingame. it attracts to pick a side, to go in there and be part of those glorious battles one can read about on the forums. and if only the people who are interested in pvp in the first place (most of those who are not probably not ever really gonna try it anyways). as for me, i visit kerrat much more often these days than i did before (only used to go there for the daily).
and sure, the rules, but on the other hand all that smack-talk generates interest as well as entertainment (as long as within the rules).
all good things!
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
In contrast to Askray, I'm not dead set against the idea of some kinds of 'social' threads staying put. Mainly I question whether or not an entire subforum is required. Would there be enough traffic in the form of legitimate posts to warrant such a thing? Or would it be one more place where heavy moderation is required?
I hate to even say it, but this might be a case where the PvP Community needs its' own Community-run board. Regardless of what some might think, I don't want to see you guys vanish from this place. I believe you're a valuable part of this community and STO would be the worse if you guys were to disengage.
One alternative idea that we might get support for is a Sticky conversation thread for the kind of special interest posts that Mancom talked about. Those would get posted there or nowhere, and smack talk would not be allowed in it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
They are asking for another forum to put this stuff in, just under the PvP forum...kind of like a "subforum," as mentioned in the title...
The average PvE hero (RP or not), stays away from the PvP forums, and honestly that's better for us as all they do is whine about PvP and say it should be removed from the game. So giving us a place for this stuff away from their tears, complaints, and trolling is preferred.
Perhaps such a thread here, would help to alleviate some of the concerns and explain the rational behind Mod Actions.
If nothing else, it would be a good place to remind folks just what NOT to do if they wish to continue to post here and mostly keep that kind of discussion out of the rest of the Forums.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Honestly, I am on the pvper's side. I WANT more pvp in the game. Hell I'd love open world pvp! (Yes yes I know go play eve yadda yadda). I was tickled pink when those convoy maps popped up and I was allowed to go into them even as a lowbie, start attacking the fed ships and have other captains come warping in to stop me. I LOVED THAT. I WANT that and have said it many times over. I get the whole "oh but you can be griefed" junk but honestly? I went in as a lt cmdr, got beaten down by people way higher than me but had TONS of fun doing it!
Again, I'm not against pvper's getting things. On the contrary, but when it comes down to forum stuff I have a different opinion hehe.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
This is what I was thinking. There should be a thread with a clever name, probably Ker'rat, where we can carry on with all our "PvP culture." It wouldn't clog up the PvP section, and our culture threads wouldn't have to die in 10F.
I like the idea of a "Ker'rat Comms" thread, with clearly posted rules/guidelines about what goes in it and what's not allowed. Sorry, but I'd have to insist on a "No-Trash" rule. I'd also suggest clearing it out every month or so, so it doesn't grow into a 65 page monster full of out-of-date and out-of-context posts.
Kind of close to what I was originally going to suggest, but with no special provisions for trash talking and throwing zingers around.
If it worked really well, had a decent amount of traffic, and didn't cause problems it could pave the way for a full subforum later on.
I'll bring it up and we'll see. No promises.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You stole my idea in a previous post
*goes planning revenge, tremendous revenge...*
Honestly? If you think that's a good definition of why you guys need your own social forum you're not making a strong argument. People that are playing along in that thread, jokingly about temporal mechanics and such, and you jumped on them asking do you pvp?
To ME personally, that's showing whats a strong problem here and why the forums need a lot more structure. As an example; feedback/upcoming matches etc should be the only things allowed in here with everything else in the right forums.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
No, deok is right.
PvE and PvP players are two faces of the same medal. PvErs make RP like being starship captain, frigging starbases and such. To PvPers, and I mean those who PvP all the times and write in this subforum sometimes, that kind of RP makes no sense.
We act like a community, we usually know each other and like to gank ourselves because the other vessel has a person behind the screen that can fire back. When we do it, it's to keep us entertained, have fun. Saying "Punish the FEDs" doesn't mean that Federation players sucks more than KDF, just teasing the other faction and "bring it" in PvP. We make it look like real because it's the way to incite to fight each other.
People in any other subforum will never understand this; that's why we need a place for these talks, even just a topic. With some rules of course, but specific for messing with each other.
His point is this.
Lets think of of a Real World example that would apply...
Lets say you where hanging out with a couple of your friends. You where old friends and you had plenty of inside jokes that you like to poke each other with. Your all together at a table in a crowed establishment, your in a large social place however you are really interacting with your friends at the table. So you tell a bunch of INSIDE jokes.
Now the owner of this establishment decides he needs more room on the dance floor so he pushes another table full of another group of people together with yours. Now if you keep telling those inside jokes... that new table of people just doesn't get it. There it is hilarity ensues.
It may make a great pilot for a sitcom. Its not a great solution for our forums though.
All these sub forums are like different tables at the same party. Its not that we don't like the people at the other table... and its not that they don't like us. We have somethings in common which is why we are at the same party... however there are also differences which is why one group is sitting at one table and the other is on the other side of the room. We don't mind mingling, but each side has inside jokes and common histories that just go over the others head. Making references like "small sam" or fleet names of past groups of players... or yes Some Kerrat jokes. Just don't go over well at that other table.
This is why we are saying... STOP taking our discussions and sending them over to those other tables where the people sitting there have no CLUE what we are talking about. Your not doing either group a service. Either create a new section... or relax what we are allowed to talk about at our own table.
Struck again we where talking new ships in riccardos thread... got merged with the big one. The thread in here was 100% about PvP... and PvP only. I know my comments had nothing at all to do with PvE in those ships.... if I wanted to post in the other thread I would have.
Why on earth can we not continue that attitude when talking about the pvp impact of T5U. IN the PvP forums??
When every new season has new pvp content in it, ship, consoles and powers are released not to fight a specific npc enemy but actually balanced with pvp in mind. then maybe we wouldn't need a special corner for conversation. But hi its been a long day, and no matter the freebies tomorrow, the **** storm over the upgrade process will keep the mods busy. So i m willing to cut them some slag today. But it goes to show....they just don't get it, neither does systems, nor will they ever.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Bluntly I don't see an entire sub forum being made JUST for 1 group. The PvP bootcamp was an exception because they were pretty much supported by Cryptic and PWE (including in game rewards etc).
This forum is NOT for just you guys to enjoy yourselves, banter etc. This is for pvp feedback and discussion. If it is about the pvp mechanics, builds, setting up matches, discussing matches sure that makes sense.
If it's real life situations (ie pc dying), funny posts that deal with other games (ie the watch dogs thread), basically anything NOT dealing with pvp then it doesn't belong here.
This isn't a social party, this is a community based forum and this is the feedback forum for pvp.
Granted yes, all the above is my own opinion and the CM team may in their own right decide to do it. I will say this thread was plopped to Smirk on twitter so he probably is paying attention to it.
(And btw - it is obvious to us when you make a post and just add pvp to it to say "it's a pvp thread!")
As for the tier 6 discussion - that's my bad. I was hammering at merging a lot of threads and wasn't paying attention where they were.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
The Spanish 7th Dirty Old Wizard Elite Warriors Core have incorporated Pandas and .Section 31. into their Lore in an attempt to gain Glory or Death by fighting the 182nd Warriors of Gre'thor with a Razor and showing them their Crits!