And this is why we can't have nice things... ~Bluegeek
Yeah... Maybe instead of closing threads could you ban people like this... Thanks would be much appreciated
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
The stuff that got moved, removed, or closed wasn't "hey let's go raid Kerrat Friday night!" or "That was a great match yesterday!". I personally would never think of interfering with that, even though it's not necessarily PvP feedback.
The tipping point for me was when I saw that Smallsam's announcement was suddenly in Ten Forward. As far as I can tell there is no reason that anyone outside of the PVP community would care about this event and by removing it from the PVP section it becomes potentially invisible to the target audience. (I think I'm not the only one who essentially reads only the PVP subforum, dev posts and nothing else.)
(Bonus points for those who get the Smallsam reference and also remember the context in which this term was first used.)
The tipping point for me was when I saw that Smallsam's announcement was suddenly in Ten Forward. As far as I can tell there is no reason that anyone outside of the PVP community would care about this event and by removing it from the PVP section it becomes potentially invisible to the target audience. (I think I'm not the only one who essentially reads only the PVP subforum, dev posts and nothing else.)
(Bonus points for those who get the Smallsam reference and also remember the context in which this term was first used.)
I see your point. Unfortunately, I can't explain why it was moved because I didn't do it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I think for me, and I've posted about it here and there over the years, is that overall the forums are pretty redundant in certain areas on certain things as far as how it is organized.
Say somebody wants to discuss a mechanic/build...where are they going to do it, eh?
The Academy
Star Trek Online General Discussion
Federation Shipyards
Klingon Fleetyards
Romulan Flotilla
Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content
PvP Gameplay
Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
Duty Officer System and R&D
Reputation System
Gameplay Bug Reports
Hell, probably find those discussions popping up in all sorts of other places as well.
The tipping point for me was when I saw that Smallsam's announcement was suddenly in Ten Forward. As far as I can tell there is no reason that anyone outside of the PVP community would care about this event and by removing it from the PVP section it becomes potentially invisible to the target audience. (I think I'm not the only one who essentially reads only the PVP subforum, dev posts and nothing else.)
(Bonus points for those who get the Smallsam reference and also remember the context in which this term was first used.)
I second that. I opened http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1202851 as a disguised attempt to bring more people in Ker'rat with the excuse that the KDF travelled "back in time" (I really stumbled upon that conversation on Watch Dogs anyway) to do some stuff on Earth's past, using that pic as excuse.
I guess only PvPers can really understand it; the one that wrote "to the OP the fed / kdf war is over" explains clearly that we need such subforum, because the average guy in 10F won't really get the hidden meaning, making these threads die in a few pages.
I don't really think that a PvEr will ever get to understand at a glance that, when I said "klingons", I meant the playable faction.
Plus, if many PvPers demonstrated to have fun this way, let us do it in a way that doesn't break the forum rules? If a new subforum is too much of a thing, lets make a thread reserved for this? Where we can post that stuff, of course with some limits, without worrying about it to be closed.
I see your point. Unfortunately, I can't explain why it was moved because I didn't do it.
Well to be honest it was rightfully moved. It wasn't really in the right sub forum... having said that it was in the right sub forum. As Mancom stated no one outside of this section would care that Mini was having some PC problems.
As for the nature of other threads... no one is asking for you to ignore morons. If people deserve to be moderated and in some cases more then just warned. So be it. Stupid is as stupid does.
I am not blaming you here BG (your not the first to say it).... but we have heard. "This is why you can't have nice things" junk enough. We have heard from Cryptic for 4 years that they don't want to talk to us or associate with us in game or on the forums because a handful of people are morons. The fact that some people can not behave does not mean the community is not entitled to some basic quality of life improvements.
I guess if I don't want anything nice to ever happen for PvE all I have to do is head over to that side of the game and act like a grade A jerk for so long that to spite me the devs will stop producing PvE stuffz. Logical isn't it ?
Plus, if many PvPers demonstrated to have fun this way, let us do it in a way that doesn't break the forum rules? If a new subforum is too much of a thing, lets make a thread reserved for this? Where we can post that stuff, of course with some limits, without worrying about it to be closed.
They only close things that break general Forum rules. That won't change because they add a subforum. I think that is what BG is trying to convey. I know why he is saying what he has said. Just because they open a new Subforum.... it doesn't mean the overall forum rules go out the window. Threads that go over the line will still get closed. I think he wants to set the expectation... or understand what our motivations are really. I don't think they want any "Why did you ban me for a post in the no rulez Zone yall". lol
#1 PvP "Feedback" has been ignored for what, 6-7 seasons now? I don't think a dev could ever work up the courage to have a serious conversation with any pvper (including the well spoken, good mannered ones). Any "feedback" we provide isn't going anywhere.
#2 The ACTIVE pvp community is realistically only 100-300 people, tops. I'm sure there's lots of people in fleets that pvp, but it is not their primary goal. So our community size is relatively small.
#3 The number of those 100-300 people that actively post on this formus is probably around 50-75 on it's best day (also factoring in how many suspensions you guys gave out in pvp forums this week)
#4 We've had one closed post in the past 2 weeks, and it was due to be closed anyway. We're actually being quite "good" at the moment vs our usual par for the course. This is because the two fleets that were having a "forum war" both have decided to knock it off.
#5 You guys (bg/askray) seem to spend a lot of time in the pvp forums moving posts, deleting posts, closing posts, all your basic work function. Your time is being squandered by a small % of the community because we are all at heart 14 year old min maxers apparently.
So, here's a suggestion. Rather than create a new subforum, why not just change the rules to the pvp forum to allow general discussion as long as it has an effect on the pvp community, because trying to raise the false flag of "this forum is here for feedback".... Yeah... forum is, devs aren't. You see the problem. Also I highly doubt the forum rules are written in stone unable to be changed. Just a suggestion to make it easier for all parties involved.
I was the one that moved smallsam's announcement because, it wasn't a PvP feedback or thread. It was a gaming issue that had to handle with real life problems. So yes, it belongs in ten forward.
As for my personal opinion about a PvP "social" area - No. There is enough forums as is, one for pretty much everything possible and yes, the rules would still apply as they are general rules meaning they are for EVERY forum not just excluding one or another.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
its not exactly accurate to say the devs never listen to us or ignore this section. we just had borticus talking about maps and genesis and foundry relating to pvp. they know us pvpers are the brain trust when it comes to game mechanics, were gonna find the bugs, the exploits, the imbalances. when there's nothing but Punish the Feds! TRIBBLE threads dominating the front page there's nothing of substance to look at, and if there was something important to actually talk about it will get buried under RP these days here. sure, there's nothing substantive to talk about right now, theres been no update on that space meta thing, no real info out of DR, but i have a feeling thats going to change and soon.
thats why i want all this RP and 'pvp culture' stuff out of the main pvp section, and its own subforum, seems best for all.
Forum rules aren't hard to comprehend, unless the person is illiterate or mentally challenged. More often than not, I'm sure troublemakers break the rules on purpose, fully aware of them.
So yeah, Blue geek is stating the obvious here and you're doing the same by defending him/her. Clearly, someone has misunderstood the point of this thread. Topics that are relevant to PvP and that also do not break rules of user conduct are getting censored under the current system. The solution is to amend the system. That much is clear.
Anyways, pvpers are 14 years old minmaxers who cares about their needs.
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Really shows how the mods and devs care about pvpers.
as i already said we need a pvp forum specific mod who is also a pvper.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Askray, no disrespect meant, but if one more sub forum would overload you to that extent in a volunteer position, you should possibly reconsider the position. Again, no disrespect meant, but your response is coming across as "I don't want more volunteer work".
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Askray, no disrespect meant, but if one more sub forum would overload you to that extent in a volunteer position, you should possibly reconsider the position. Again, no disrespect meant, but your response is coming across as "I don't want more volunteer work".
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Okay then if it's coming across as I don't want more work that's not it. Considering I'm also looking at helping keep the master bug list this week cleaned up I'm taking on things that aren't my responsibility but trying to help players :P
We can pass it along to Smirk as he'd be the one to make that final call.
Yes, you have said that on multiple occasions. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish by repeating yourself.
You wanna play legal? I think that would be fun, I'm bored anyway.
"- Introduce yourself, share fan art, fan fiction, and make friends here! Romulan Ale is still prohibited. The Captain's Table (RP) sub-forum can also be found here."
Show me where it says PvP in the Ten forward description in quotations lol.
You can be literal all you want. but Ten Forward is for off topic conversation or real life things (always has been and you know that deokkent :P), the RP forum is for obviously, RP. It doesn't matter if it's PvP RP or not, it's for all RP.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
You've got to know that forcing the PvP folks into Ten Forward for discussions that aren't "feedback or systems" isn't going to end well. And that's not a case of saying that the PvP folks are going to end up trolling all the threads there...it's a case of saying that the PvE folks are going to end up trolling all the PvP threads there. It's one of the reasons why so much that could be discussed elsewhere ends up being discussed in the PvP forums...cause one of the dime a dozen PvE trolls will come crying into the threads to get them closed otherwise.
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
This is how it honestly got broken down by a lot of discussion and debate from internal to key people. Honestly, I don't know totally how it was worked out, but that's what I was told.
There is another thread that's talking about forum reconstruction that you're more than welcome to chime in if you got a great idea on how the structure should go.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
Unfortunately you're right...
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Comments
Yeah... Maybe instead of closing threads could you ban people like this... Thanks would be much appreciated
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
(Bonus points for those who get the Smallsam reference and also remember the context in which this term was first used.)
I see your point. Unfortunately, I can't explain why it was moved because I didn't do it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Say somebody wants to discuss a mechanic/build...where are they going to do it, eh?
The Academy
Star Trek Online General Discussion
Federation Shipyards
Klingon Fleetyards
Romulan Flotilla
Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content
PvP Gameplay
Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
Duty Officer System and R&D
Reputation System
Gameplay Bug Reports
Hell, probably find those discussions popping up in all sorts of other places as well.
I second that. I opened http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1202851 as a disguised attempt to bring more people in Ker'rat with the excuse that the KDF travelled "back in time" (I really stumbled upon that conversation on Watch Dogs anyway) to do some stuff on Earth's past, using that pic as excuse.
I guess only PvPers can really understand it; the one that wrote "to the OP the fed / kdf war is over" explains clearly that we need such subforum, because the average guy in 10F won't really get the hidden meaning, making these threads die in a few pages.
I don't really think that a PvEr will ever get to understand at a glance that, when I said "klingons", I meant the playable faction.
Plus, if many PvPers demonstrated to have fun this way, let us do it in a way that doesn't break the forum rules? If a new subforum is too much of a thing, lets make a thread reserved for this? Where we can post that stuff, of course with some limits, without worrying about it to be closed.
Well to be honest it was rightfully moved. It wasn't really in the right sub forum... having said that it was in the right sub forum. As Mancom stated no one outside of this section would care that Mini was having some PC problems.
As for the nature of other threads... no one is asking for you to ignore morons. If people deserve to be moderated and in some cases more then just warned. So be it. Stupid is as stupid does.
I am not blaming you here BG (your not the first to say it).... but we have heard. "This is why you can't have nice things" junk enough. We have heard from Cryptic for 4 years that they don't want to talk to us or associate with us in game or on the forums because a handful of people are morons. The fact that some people can not behave does not mean the community is not entitled to some basic quality of life improvements.
I guess if I don't want anything nice to ever happen for PvE all I have to do is head over to that side of the game and act like a grade A jerk for so long that to spite me the devs will stop producing PvE stuffz. Logical isn't it ?
They only close things that break general Forum rules. That won't change because they add a subforum. I think that is what BG is trying to convey. I know why he is saying what he has said. Just because they open a new Subforum.... it doesn't mean the overall forum rules go out the window. Threads that go over the line will still get closed. I think he wants to set the expectation... or understand what our motivations are really. I don't think they want any "Why did you ban me for a post in the no rulez Zone yall". lol
#1 PvP "Feedback" has been ignored for what, 6-7 seasons now? I don't think a dev could ever work up the courage to have a serious conversation with any pvper (including the well spoken, good mannered ones). Any "feedback" we provide isn't going anywhere.
#2 The ACTIVE pvp community is realistically only 100-300 people, tops. I'm sure there's lots of people in fleets that pvp, but it is not their primary goal. So our community size is relatively small.
#3 The number of those 100-300 people that actively post on this formus is probably around 50-75 on it's best day (also factoring in how many suspensions you guys gave out in pvp forums this week)
#4 We've had one closed post in the past 2 weeks, and it was due to be closed anyway. We're actually being quite "good" at the moment vs our usual par for the course. This is because the two fleets that were having a "forum war" both have decided to knock it off.
#5 You guys (bg/askray) seem to spend a lot of time in the pvp forums moving posts, deleting posts, closing posts, all your basic work function. Your time is being squandered by a small % of the community because we are all at heart 14 year old min maxers apparently.
So, here's a suggestion. Rather than create a new subforum, why not just change the rules to the pvp forum to allow general discussion as long as it has an effect on the pvp community, because trying to raise the false flag of "this forum is here for feedback".... Yeah... forum is, devs aren't. You see the problem. Also I highly doubt the forum rules are written in stone unable to be changed. Just a suggestion to make it easier for all parties involved.
As for my personal opinion about a PvP "social" area - No. There is enough forums as is, one for pretty much everything possible and yes, the rules would still apply as they are general rules meaning they are for EVERY forum not just excluding one or another.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Whatchu Wanna Ker'rat 4?
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
This is why we cant have nice things...
This keeps coming up. Where has anyone asked or even suggested that the proposed sub-forum would be a no holds barred area?
House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
thats why i want all this RP and 'pvp culture' stuff out of the main pvp section, and its own subforum, seems best for all.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Really shows how the mods and devs care about pvpers.
as i already said we need a pvp forum specific mod who is also a pvper.
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Okay then if it's coming across as I don't want more work that's not it. Considering I'm also looking at helping keep the master bug list this week cleaned up I'm taking on things that aren't my responsibility but trying to help players :P
We can pass it along to Smirk as he'd be the one to make that final call.
You can be literal all you want. but Ten Forward is for off topic conversation or real life things (always has been and you know that deokkent :P), the RP forum is for obviously, RP. It doesn't matter if it's PvP RP or not, it's for all RP.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
You've got to know that forcing the PvP folks into Ten Forward for discussions that aren't "feedback or systems" isn't going to end well. And that's not a case of saying that the PvP folks are going to end up trolling all the threads there...it's a case of saying that the PvE folks are going to end up trolling all the PvP threads there. It's one of the reasons why so much that could be discussed elsewhere ends up being discussed in the PvP forums...cause one of the dime a dozen PvE trolls will come crying into the threads to get them closed otherwise.
There is another thread that's talking about forum reconstruction that you're more than welcome to chime in if you got a great idea on how the structure should go.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Unfortunately you're right...
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
I nominate you for the nobel prize