I was talking more about the actual stat on your own ship having a DR formula not just the firing mechanic.
We are all running around on toons that have much more then 55 bonus defense.
I can make an escort stay north of 100 pretty darn near 100% of the time. I was thinking something more like hull resistance where adding more and more starts to be less and less effective. (Ditto for the Acc mechanic as with traits weapon mods consoles ect its possible to stack that up pretty high as well... and Cryptic isn't done releasing more acc and targeting stat items)
But that's the thing, that does exist...
There are no diminishing returns on Damage Resistance Rating.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Defense.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Accuracy.
There are diminishing returns when the DRR is used to calculate Damage Resistance.
There are diminishing returns when the BD is used to calculate To Hit.
There are diminishing returns when the BA is used to calculate Accuracy Overflow.
If I boost my Bonus Defense by 5% and then by another 5%, the second 5% is not giving me the same benefit that the first 5% did. If I boost my Bonus Accuracy (for Accuracy Overflow) by 5% and then by another 5%, again the second 5% is not giving as much as the first.
I can keep stacking +17.5 Rare Mk XI Neuts and I never get less DRR from one - it's only through the conversion to DR that the diminishing returns comes in to play...that's how it is with BA/BD.
That they introduced non-movement related buffs to Defense tells us that their concept of Defense is not purely movement related.
A naked build sitting still has -15% Bonus Defense.
A build sitting still where somebody has 9 Maneuvers has +/-0% Bonus Defense.
A build with 9 Maneuvers and Elusive sitting still has +10% Bonus Defense.
And there are a myriad of items that you can add further to boost that Bonus Defense...while sitting still.
They changed Evasive Maneuvers to provide a boost to Bonus Defense based on Speed.
The tooltips for the boost to Bonus Defense for Attack Pattern Omega are incorrect - there's actually a formula for it based on ship type, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps if they were to base all of the Bonus Defense boosts in a manner similar to what was done with EM - then it would tie all the Bonus Defense back into actual movement.
A target sitting still would be at -15% Bonus Defense...because at 0 speed none of the boosts would apply.
nothing in this thread is or has suggested getting rid of either, just changing the basis of them.
with these stats derived from velocity(preferably angular velosity imo), you wouldnt get the defence disparity you mention in parked rom ships which has utterly nothing to do wit the ship itself.
the current mechanic is good, as an idea. but as a mechanic its too inflexible and flawed. and you admit that its flawed when you start talking about how.
if it accounted for turning and angular velocity then it would actually make manouvering more of a skill than just pointing the front of your ship at a target.
I hear what you are saying.
I also hear what you are saying VD.
I think what I am more meaning is the DR forumulas are to blame. They are not harsh enough. There is also no cap on defense that I can see. With The DR on hull resists it is harsh enough that it becomes almost pointless to try and boost your hull resist further after a point. That doesn't happen with Defense... and perhaps it should.
My main issue with the idea of velocity effecting ACC... is simple. The idea of an escort with out a cloak would die instantly the second something like that was added. The best practice would be to cloak so you could park and unload a vape... then run away and repeat. If a velocity degrading ACC was introduced actual escorts would become obsolete. We go back in time 6 months to vaper online. imo
with these stats derived from velocity(preferably angular velosity imo), you wouldnt get the defence disparity you mention in parked rom ships which has utterly nothing to do wit the ship itself.
Wrong. Because if that where the case you could, as a vaper (most likely in a rom ship), just decloak, tractor and blow your target to oblivion in a much less risky way if such a mechanic would be implemented. The problem is the cloaking mechanic and balancing the attractiveness of it compared to persistent escorts.
With one ship type you would circumvent the whole mechanic and guess what people will be using then? Sure there are counters to being tractored, but a vape attempt is far less predictable then a timed alpha by a non-cloaking escort.
I'd suggest reducing the base defence bonus on escorts a little. What is it right now? A 15% bonus? Make that maybe 7% to 10%.
I also like VD's suggestion. No target should have any bonus defence at 0 movement speed. It's funny to actually imagine that.
very simple explanation for that.
agility is a multiplier for both offence and defence at the same time. this was something obviously completly ignored or misunderstood be the devs.
resulting in the misconceived mess we have now. when the spacewhales are teh ships that need their heals just to live.
of course a tank is going to be the weakest link. every school kid knows that the fattie that gets its face kicked in every day, is losing.
but regardless, your invoking a2b and the symptoms around that, is admission that the tank/heal/dps system is an utter failure.
AND, admission that, you know it is an utter failure.
sigh, so close. it would be an utter failure, but its not because AtB is there to make up the speed difference a substantial amount. there is no solution more elegant and selectively buffs slow tac ships wile not buffing sci ships and healers too, its why the devs need to leave it the hell alone. AtB ships fit perfectly were they are. none are too good, and just about everything can be made good enough with it.
accuracy and evasion in a star trek setting should actually be handled in a star trek way. keep in mind that the computers on these ships have processors computing within warp fields, so it can process at speeds beyond whats physically possible. nothing moving at sublight should be missed because the computer miss calculated the shot.
beams move at approximately c, fired from an array accuracy really shouldn't be a factor. only really believable that cannons can miss, they move much slower, its actually possible for a ship at sublight to dodge. the possibility for missing is much more likely due to manual control human error, limitations in the weapon bank's ability to swivel sufficiently, and most of all sensor interference projected by your ship.
THAT should determine defense score, not movement FFS. specing varoius types of sensors should be the skill that determains your acc and def, not relegated to just exploit vs cloaked ships.
thats a massively rose tinted view of a2b.
tell me, how many doffs for individual abilities would you need to slot to get what a2b gets?
the beam power doffs
the tt doffs
the eptx cd doffs
the eptx boonus power doffs
etc etc
all that from one ability is not 'elegant' its a 'cudgel'.
don't be fooled into thinking that maters what so ever. 90% of doffs are hot garbage by design, what maters is how much a ship is buffed by it, and if those ships are made OP by it compared to ships that cant use it or don't need it. currently those ships that need AtB are the weakest links within the system, AtD escorts, vappy warbirds, control sci ships in various flavors, DPS sci ships that can't be shot and can only be countered by more sci ships, and healers that can single handedly prevent all deaths for hours have twice the effect on a match then anything running AtB does. the fact that so many players and the devs want to nerf it, i feel dumber just living on the same planet as them.
its like taking apO and mixing eptE eptW and several other abilities into it.(besides a2id and PH, but thats yet another story...)
AtD plays a huge roll in AtB escorts not being OP. the main difference between an AtB escort and crusier is that one has DEM3 and the other has APO3. nether of these are particularly swift, EPtE is just baseline, its not like you can actually not run it, on anything, anymore. AtD escorts have twice the speed and turn on AtB escorts, as long as your a good pilot they are practically untouchable, and supper difficult to actually duel if your not loaded up with high aux AtD too. if a healer is around there's also no HPS advantage on the AtB ship ether, it just is slower, thats about all you can say about it then.
in a startrek way? that would mean firing from tens of thousands of kilometers, while moving at up to 30% of c. if not ftl.
even with tachyonic weapons and quantum computing you would still have travel time which means time to evade.
and other than thaleron & triC weapons effecting subspace, i havnt heard of singularity weapons being used in trek... though that would explain the q blowing up stars.
so, yes, movement would determine evasive stats, even in star trek, even if putting a lot of effort into active ecm to fool sensors would play a part.
yaaa... that hasn't so much as been implied thats how combat is in trek since the 60s.
accuracy and evasion in a star trek setting should actually be handled in a star trek way. keep in mind that the computers on these ships have processors computing within warp fields, so it can process at speeds beyond whats physically possible. nothing moving at sublight should be missed because the computer miss calculated the shot.
beams move at approximately c, fired from an array accuracy really shouldn't be a factor. only really believable that cannons can miss, they move much slower, its actually possible for a ship at sublight to dodge. the possibility for missing is much more likely due to manual control human error, limitations in the weapon bank's ability to swivel sufficiently, and most of all sensor interference projected by your ship.
THAT should determine defense score, not movement FFS. specing varoius types of sensors should be the skill that determains your acc and def, not relegated to just exploit vs cloaked ships.
I would say you are pretty close, to being on target (no pun intended)!
The ships computer can easily accommodate for speeds, trajectories, multiple targets, multiple weapons fire, etc.
The one thing it cannot account for, is the pre-determined route a ship will take, with 100% ACC (again no pun intended).
In other words, just because it can estimate with ACC, as to how fast a ship is moving vs the weapons point of impact, or even estimate if the ship remains on the exact same course, or even factors in all possible flight courses/speeds for the duration of the weapon fired to make contact, it cannot judge exactly if/and when the ship may make a course correction, in an attempt to evade weapons fire from making contact.
So in actuality, there is some chance for a miss, even with the targeting computers working at 100+% Efficiency.
People tend to forget, that our weapons are not fired, by looking thru gun sights!
I think what I am more meaning is the DR forumulas are to blame. They are not harsh enough. There is also no cap on defense that I can see. With The DR on hull resists it is harsh enough that it becomes almost pointless to try and boost your hull resist further after a point. That doesn't happen with Defense... and perhaps it should.
My main issue with the idea of velocity effecting ACC... is simple. The idea of an escort with out a cloak would die instantly the second something like that was added. The best practice would be to cloak so you could park and unload a vape... then run away and repeat. If a velocity degrading ACC was introduced actual escorts would become obsolete. We go back in time 6 months to vaper online. imo
Totally agree with you. I like the idea of the OP but now that I think about it, it would cause more vaping. It's funny how a lot of fixes actually make people go to vaping to get a kill. I think a lot of balance problems would be fixed if they lowered damage and healing but that's for another thread.
I fly a fleet b'rel. Stopping in my tracks means warp core breach for me. Yes yes, I get that a bop is behind the times, but that's not the point.
I fly one too. I don't have a problem slowing down for a second to get a clean kill. Heck, I often use a TB so I need to stop for a second before firing then evasives or ICC out.
Totally agree with you. I like the idea of the OP but now that I think about it, it would cause more vaping. It's funny how a lot of fixes actually make people go to vaping to get a kill. I think a lot of balance problems would be fixed if they lowered damage and healing but that's for another thread.
I fly one too. I don't have a problem slowing down for a second to get a clean kill. Heck, I often use a TB so I need to stop for a second before firing then evasives or ICC out.
If so, than I would suspect a possible 1-2sec. cd, between uses!
The emergency conn doff already brings evasives to global (20 seconds), so if you can get epte at global then there's no need for the other doff.
Its pretty darn powerful. I haven't been killed in that horrible pve machine with white mk ix gear I'm running in the video in Kerrat yet since I got the doff. If this doff doesn't get fixed the pvp meta will be greatly hurt....and everyone will have to run psw every 15-20 seconds.
Comments
But that's the thing, that does exist...
There are no diminishing returns on Damage Resistance Rating.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Defense.
There are no diminishing returns on Bonus Accuracy.
There are diminishing returns when the DRR is used to calculate Damage Resistance.
There are diminishing returns when the BD is used to calculate To Hit.
There are diminishing returns when the BA is used to calculate Accuracy Overflow.
If I boost my Bonus Defense by 5% and then by another 5%, the second 5% is not giving me the same benefit that the first 5% did. If I boost my Bonus Accuracy (for Accuracy Overflow) by 5% and then by another 5%, again the second 5% is not giving as much as the first.
I can keep stacking +17.5 Rare Mk XI Neuts and I never get less DRR from one - it's only through the conversion to DR that the diminishing returns comes in to play...that's how it is with BA/BD.
A naked build sitting still has -15% Bonus Defense.
A build sitting still where somebody has 9 Maneuvers has +/-0% Bonus Defense.
A build with 9 Maneuvers and Elusive sitting still has +10% Bonus Defense.
And there are a myriad of items that you can add further to boost that Bonus Defense...while sitting still.
They changed Evasive Maneuvers to provide a boost to Bonus Defense based on Speed.
The tooltips for the boost to Bonus Defense for Attack Pattern Omega are incorrect - there's actually a formula for it based on ship type, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps if they were to base all of the Bonus Defense boosts in a manner similar to what was done with EM - then it would tie all the Bonus Defense back into actual movement.
A target sitting still would be at -15% Bonus Defense...because at 0 speed none of the boosts would apply.
I hear what you are saying.
I also hear what you are saying VD.
I think what I am more meaning is the DR forumulas are to blame. They are not harsh enough. There is also no cap on defense that I can see. With The DR on hull resists it is harsh enough that it becomes almost pointless to try and boost your hull resist further after a point. That doesn't happen with Defense... and perhaps it should.
My main issue with the idea of velocity effecting ACC... is simple. The idea of an escort with out a cloak would die instantly the second something like that was added. The best practice would be to cloak so you could park and unload a vape... then run away and repeat. If a velocity degrading ACC was introduced actual escorts would become obsolete. We go back in time 6 months to vaper online. imo
Wrong. Because if that where the case you could, as a vaper (most likely in a rom ship), just decloak, tractor and blow your target to oblivion in a much less risky way if such a mechanic would be implemented. The problem is the cloaking mechanic and balancing the attractiveness of it compared to persistent escorts.
With one ship type you would circumvent the whole mechanic and guess what people will be using then? Sure there are counters to being tractored, but a vape attempt is far less predictable then a timed alpha by a non-cloaking escort.
I'd suggest reducing the base defence bonus on escorts a little. What is it right now? A 15% bonus? Make that maybe 7% to 10%.
I also like VD's suggestion. No target should have any bonus defence at 0 movement speed. It's funny to actually imagine that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1j9dHh5v8w
:while thinking about how Sub BOFFs help boost a ship's defense.
Just picture the BOFFs on the bridge of the ship, am I right?
sigh, so close. it would be an utter failure, but its not because AtB is there to make up the speed difference a substantial amount. there is no solution more elegant and selectively buffs slow tac ships wile not buffing sci ships and healers too, its why the devs need to leave it the hell alone. AtB ships fit perfectly were they are. none are too good, and just about everything can be made good enough with it.
beams move at approximately c, fired from an array accuracy really shouldn't be a factor. only really believable that cannons can miss, they move much slower, its actually possible for a ship at sublight to dodge. the possibility for missing is much more likely due to manual control human error, limitations in the weapon bank's ability to swivel sufficiently, and most of all sensor interference projected by your ship.
THAT should determine defense score, not movement FFS. specing varoius types of sensors should be the skill that determains your acc and def, not relegated to just exploit vs cloaked ships.
don't be fooled into thinking that maters what so ever. 90% of doffs are hot garbage by design, what maters is how much a ship is buffed by it, and if those ships are made OP by it compared to ships that cant use it or don't need it. currently those ships that need AtB are the weakest links within the system, AtD escorts, vappy warbirds, control sci ships in various flavors, DPS sci ships that can't be shot and can only be countered by more sci ships, and healers that can single handedly prevent all deaths for hours have twice the effect on a match then anything running AtB does. the fact that so many players and the devs want to nerf it, i feel dumber just living on the same planet as them.
AtD plays a huge roll in AtB escorts not being OP. the main difference between an AtB escort and crusier is that one has DEM3 and the other has APO3. nether of these are particularly swift, EPtE is just baseline, its not like you can actually not run it, on anything, anymore. AtD escorts have twice the speed and turn on AtB escorts, as long as your a good pilot they are practically untouchable, and supper difficult to actually duel if your not loaded up with high aux AtD too. if a healer is around there's also no HPS advantage on the AtB ship ether, it just is slower, thats about all you can say about it then.
yaaa... that hasn't so much as been implied thats how combat is in trek since the 60s.
I would say you are pretty close, to being on target (no pun intended)!
The ships computer can easily accommodate for speeds, trajectories, multiple targets, multiple weapons fire, etc.
The one thing it cannot account for, is the pre-determined route a ship will take, with 100% ACC (again no pun intended).
In other words, just because it can estimate with ACC, as to how fast a ship is moving vs the weapons point of impact, or even estimate if the ship remains on the exact same course, or even factors in all possible flight courses/speeds for the duration of the weapon fired to make contact, it cannot judge exactly if/and when the ship may make a course correction, in an attempt to evade weapons fire from making contact.
So in actuality, there is some chance for a miss, even with the targeting computers working at 100+% Efficiency.
People tend to forget, that our weapons are not fired, by looking thru gun sights!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Totally agree with you. I like the idea of the OP but now that I think about it, it would cause more vaping. It's funny how a lot of fixes actually make people go to vaping to get a kill. I think a lot of balance problems would be fixed if they lowered damage and healing but that's for another thread.
I fly one too. I don't have a problem slowing down for a second to get a clean kill. Heck, I often use a TB so I need to stop for a second before firing then evasives or ICC out.
Also if they don't fix the emergency conn doff...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iifRn0idKN4
Have you tried it with the other doff?
You know the other EM reduction doff?
Can they be used together, or not?
If so, than I would suspect a possible 1-2sec. cd, between uses!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The emergency conn doff already brings evasives to global (20 seconds), so if you can get epte at global then there's no need for the other doff.
Its pretty darn powerful. I haven't been killed in that horrible pve machine with white mk ix gear I'm running in the video in Kerrat yet since I got the doff. If this doff doesn't get fixed the pvp meta will be greatly hurt....and everyone will have to run psw every 15-20 seconds.