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Torpedo Damage (TS/HY) - Chron/Trans/Elachi
virusdancer
Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
So I was looking at a parse after changing some stuff...and...I noticed something off about one of the lines.
The following are all Mk XI Common - all gear/traits/etc were removed - just the 9 Weapon Training and 9 Projectile Weapons in play.
Chroniton: 3602.2
TS3 - 1598.7 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1891.9 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2482.5 - 68.92%
Photon: 4207.5
TS3 - 2498.6 - 59.38%
TS2 - 2879.2 - 68.43%
TS1 - 3648.2 - 86.71%
Plasma: 3301.3
TS3 - 1948.9 - 59.03%
TS2 - 2245.8 - 68.03%
TS1 - 2845.6 - 86.20%
Quantum: 4676.8
TS3 - 2757.5 - 58.96%
TS2 - 3224.4 - 68.95%
TS1 - 4166.1 - 89.04%
Transphasic: 3043.1
TS3 - 1350.6 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1598.2 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2097.1 - 68.91%
So uh, shouldn't all of those percentages be the same?
If we just look at the torps with a Salvo (instead of the HY, so no Plasma)...
Chroniton: 3602.2
HY3 - 1998.4 (x4) - 55.48% - total 221.91%
HY2 - 2364.9 (x3) - 65.65% - total 196.96%
HY1 - 3103.1 (x2) - 86.14% - total 172.29%
Photon: 4207.5
HY3 - 3123.2 (x4) - 74.23% - total 296.92%
HY2 - 3599 (x3) - 85.54% - total 256.61%
HY1 - 4560.3 (x2) - 108.39% - total 216.77%
Quantum: 4676.8
HY3 - 3446.9 (x4) - 73.70% - total 294.81%
HY2 - 4030.6 (x3) - 86.18% - total 258.55%
HY1 - 5207.6 (x2) - 111.35% - total 222.70%
Transphasic: 3043.1
HY3 - 1688.2 (x4) - 55.48% - total 221.91%
HY2 - 1997.8 (x3) - 65.65% - total 196.95%
HY1 - 2621.4 (x2) - 86.14% - total 172.29%
So it appears we have roughly two groups...so let's take a look at one from each group, eh?
Quantum: 4676.8
Chroniton: 3602.2
The Chron is doing ~77.02% the damage of the Quant.
HY3 - 3446.9 * 0.7702 = 2654.8 / 4676.8 = 56.77%
HY2 - 4030.6 * 0.7702 = 3104.4 / 4676.8 = 66.38%
HY1 - 5207.6 * 0.7702 = 4010.9 / 4676.8 = 85.76%
And what does that mean? Notice how close those last percentages are to the Chron/Trans percentages? The HY numbers were from the Quant though...times the percentage of damage that the Chron was compared to the Quant.
This gives the appearance, then, that certain torps are getting double dinged - so to speak - with regard to their damage. The Chron gets dinged by that ~0.7702 on its regular shot and then it's also getting dinged on the HY Salvos.
Does the same hold true for the Spreads?
TS3 - 2757.5 * 0.7702 = 2123.8 / 4676.8 = 45.41%
TS2 - 3224.4 * 0.7702 = 2483.4 / 4676.8 = 53.10%
TS1 - 4166.1 * 0.7702 = 3208.7 / 4676.8 = 68.61%
Here are the Chron Spread numbers again...
Chroniton: 3602.2
TS3 - 1598.7 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1891.9 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2482.5 - 68.92%
...and aren't they pretty close to what we just did to the Quant Spread numbers by hitting them by 0.7702 like we did with the HY Salvo above?
Course, I didn't notice it with a Chron vs. a Quant...meh. I noticed it with an Elachi vs. a Photon. The Elachi Subspace Torp is in the Chron/Tran group of getting "double dinged" on damage.
But Virus, the Trans is not 77.02% the damage of the Quant...etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I know - I told you guys I'm not a math guy, ask the math guys - I usually drop out a bunch of raw data and kind of just drool waiting for them to make sense of it.
If one compares the TS3 ~75%, TS2 ~76%, & TS1 ~77% numbers though...well, those would be the percentages that Chron/Trans (GroupB) do compared to Quant/Photons (GroupA) all the same. Lucky? Quirky? Meh...beyond me.
Okay then, but that's just tooltip stuff...what about actual damage? Hrmm, I can't do the HY3/HY2/HY1 on the toon - but I can look at TS3/TS2/TS1 on the toon...comparing that Chron and the Quant. Will average 10 non-crit hits for each. The percentage in ()'s is from the tooltip information above
Quant Avg: 4623.23
(4804.9, 5065.24, 4390.68, 5010.23, 4637.53, 4304.87, 4756.87, 4517.08, 4436.31, 4308.57)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 2757.33 - 59.64% (58.96%)
(2662.96, 2512.94, 2709.93, 2875.14, 2504.39, 2981.47, 2716.5, 3012.32, 3009.62, 2588.01)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 3147.50 - 68.08% (68.95%)
(2933.28, 3323.81, 3306.49, 3406.29, 2935.62, 3277.78, 2973, 2980.1, 3268.19, 3070.46)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 4060.08 - 87.82% (89.04%)
(4528.4, 3876.1, 4024.33, 4271.72, 4111.43, 3848.44, 4122.62, 3818.73, 3958.47, 4040.53)
So we see that the Quant percentages (small sample average, 10) came pretty close to the tooltip percentages. Okay then, so let's look at the Chron percentages...
Chron Avg: 3594.10
(3483.09, 3371.71, 3634.67, 3295.94, 3918.98, 3590.89, 3912.87, 3791.29, 3671.45, 3270.13)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 1604.75 - 44.65% (44.38%)
(1690.11, 1690.77, 1606.96, 1458.04, 1514.92, 1441.29, 1502.1, 1639.34, 1751.12, 1752.88)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 1922.91 - 53.50% (52.52%)
(2049.95, 1860.44, 1953.14, 1834.55, 1843.94, 1909.44, 1856.66, 1881.46, 2080.06, 1959.47)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 2420.31 - 67.34% (68.92%)
(2600.44, 2511.85, 2255.63, 2441.68, 2371.25, 2257.11, 2596.06, 2348.02, 2410.72, 2410.29)
So again, we were pretty close to the what the percentages the tooltips would have worked out to be.
To me, that would confirm that there is an issue with the TS damage of Chronitons...and...I would use that confirmation as confirmation of the issue with both TS & HY with both Chronitons & Transphasics.
Of course, again this all started by noticing the low numbers with the Elachi Subspace Torpedo - so let's take a look at what that gives, eh?
First the tooltips...
Elachi: 4188.3
TS3 - 2140.6 - 51.19%
TS2 - 2533.2 - 60.48%
TS1 - 3323.8 - 79.36%
Second some testing (same method as earlier)...
Elachi Avg: 4236.69
(4289.45, 4251.26, 4460.32, 4125.56, 4068.44, 4432.84, 4468.97, 3907.07, 4277.94, 4085.04)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 2310.27 - 54.53%
(2459.6, 2321.78, 2111.16, 2394.77, 2361.62, 2199.16, 2125.56, 2395.73, 2550.46, 2182.81)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 2755.97 - 65.05%
(2853.59, 2593.37, 2698.98, 2957.34, 2603.71, 2548.95, 2586.92, 2779.61, 2990.96, 2946.27)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 3656.81 - 86.31%
(3785.03, 3833.62, 3960.1, 3491.26, 3570.96, 3940.65, 3353.48, 3323.25, 3499.71, 3810.05)
Curious numbers there, eh? ~3-5% higher than the tooltips. The TS1 sample average is near the Quant/Photon percentage while the TS2/TS3 are ~3-4% lower than the Quant/Photon percentage.
Not as big a hit as the Chron/Trans, but don't forget the report on the VR Bio Photons from the Rep Store only hitting as hard as Rare Bio Photons from the boxes (2.5% difference): http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1191821
Now to see if all the King's horses and all the King's men, can put ol' Willard the Rat back together again...meh.
The following are all Mk XI Common - all gear/traits/etc were removed - just the 9 Weapon Training and 9 Projectile Weapons in play.
Chroniton: 3602.2
TS3 - 1598.7 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1891.9 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2482.5 - 68.92%
Photon: 4207.5
TS3 - 2498.6 - 59.38%
TS2 - 2879.2 - 68.43%
TS1 - 3648.2 - 86.71%
Plasma: 3301.3
TS3 - 1948.9 - 59.03%
TS2 - 2245.8 - 68.03%
TS1 - 2845.6 - 86.20%
Quantum: 4676.8
TS3 - 2757.5 - 58.96%
TS2 - 3224.4 - 68.95%
TS1 - 4166.1 - 89.04%
Transphasic: 3043.1
TS3 - 1350.6 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1598.2 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2097.1 - 68.91%
So uh, shouldn't all of those percentages be the same?
If we just look at the torps with a Salvo (instead of the HY, so no Plasma)...
Chroniton: 3602.2
HY3 - 1998.4 (x4) - 55.48% - total 221.91%
HY2 - 2364.9 (x3) - 65.65% - total 196.96%
HY1 - 3103.1 (x2) - 86.14% - total 172.29%
Photon: 4207.5
HY3 - 3123.2 (x4) - 74.23% - total 296.92%
HY2 - 3599 (x3) - 85.54% - total 256.61%
HY1 - 4560.3 (x2) - 108.39% - total 216.77%
Quantum: 4676.8
HY3 - 3446.9 (x4) - 73.70% - total 294.81%
HY2 - 4030.6 (x3) - 86.18% - total 258.55%
HY1 - 5207.6 (x2) - 111.35% - total 222.70%
Transphasic: 3043.1
HY3 - 1688.2 (x4) - 55.48% - total 221.91%
HY2 - 1997.8 (x3) - 65.65% - total 196.95%
HY1 - 2621.4 (x2) - 86.14% - total 172.29%
So it appears we have roughly two groups...so let's take a look at one from each group, eh?
Quantum: 4676.8
Chroniton: 3602.2
The Chron is doing ~77.02% the damage of the Quant.
HY3 - 3446.9 * 0.7702 = 2654.8 / 4676.8 = 56.77%
HY2 - 4030.6 * 0.7702 = 3104.4 / 4676.8 = 66.38%
HY1 - 5207.6 * 0.7702 = 4010.9 / 4676.8 = 85.76%
And what does that mean? Notice how close those last percentages are to the Chron/Trans percentages? The HY numbers were from the Quant though...times the percentage of damage that the Chron was compared to the Quant.
This gives the appearance, then, that certain torps are getting double dinged - so to speak - with regard to their damage. The Chron gets dinged by that ~0.7702 on its regular shot and then it's also getting dinged on the HY Salvos.
Does the same hold true for the Spreads?
TS3 - 2757.5 * 0.7702 = 2123.8 / 4676.8 = 45.41%
TS2 - 3224.4 * 0.7702 = 2483.4 / 4676.8 = 53.10%
TS1 - 4166.1 * 0.7702 = 3208.7 / 4676.8 = 68.61%
Here are the Chron Spread numbers again...
Chroniton: 3602.2
TS3 - 1598.7 - 44.38%
TS2 - 1891.9 - 52.52%
TS1 - 2482.5 - 68.92%
...and aren't they pretty close to what we just did to the Quant Spread numbers by hitting them by 0.7702 like we did with the HY Salvo above?
Course, I didn't notice it with a Chron vs. a Quant...meh. I noticed it with an Elachi vs. a Photon. The Elachi Subspace Torp is in the Chron/Tran group of getting "double dinged" on damage.
But Virus, the Trans is not 77.02% the damage of the Quant...etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I know - I told you guys I'm not a math guy, ask the math guys - I usually drop out a bunch of raw data and kind of just drool waiting for them to make sense of it.
If one compares the TS3 ~75%, TS2 ~76%, & TS1 ~77% numbers though...well, those would be the percentages that Chron/Trans (GroupB) do compared to Quant/Photons (GroupA) all the same. Lucky? Quirky? Meh...beyond me.
Okay then, but that's just tooltip stuff...what about actual damage? Hrmm, I can't do the HY3/HY2/HY1 on the toon - but I can look at TS3/TS2/TS1 on the toon...comparing that Chron and the Quant. Will average 10 non-crit hits for each. The percentage in ()'s is from the tooltip information above
Quant Avg: 4623.23
(4804.9, 5065.24, 4390.68, 5010.23, 4637.53, 4304.87, 4756.87, 4517.08, 4436.31, 4308.57)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 2757.33 - 59.64% (58.96%)
(2662.96, 2512.94, 2709.93, 2875.14, 2504.39, 2981.47, 2716.5, 3012.32, 3009.62, 2588.01)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 3147.50 - 68.08% (68.95%)
(2933.28, 3323.81, 3306.49, 3406.29, 2935.62, 3277.78, 2973, 2980.1, 3268.19, 3070.46)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 4060.08 - 87.82% (89.04%)
(4528.4, 3876.1, 4024.33, 4271.72, 4111.43, 3848.44, 4122.62, 3818.73, 3958.47, 4040.53)
So we see that the Quant percentages (small sample average, 10) came pretty close to the tooltip percentages. Okay then, so let's look at the Chron percentages...
Chron Avg: 3594.10
(3483.09, 3371.71, 3634.67, 3295.94, 3918.98, 3590.89, 3912.87, 3791.29, 3671.45, 3270.13)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 1604.75 - 44.65% (44.38%)
(1690.11, 1690.77, 1606.96, 1458.04, 1514.92, 1441.29, 1502.1, 1639.34, 1751.12, 1752.88)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 1922.91 - 53.50% (52.52%)
(2049.95, 1860.44, 1953.14, 1834.55, 1843.94, 1909.44, 1856.66, 1881.46, 2080.06, 1959.47)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 2420.31 - 67.34% (68.92%)
(2600.44, 2511.85, 2255.63, 2441.68, 2371.25, 2257.11, 2596.06, 2348.02, 2410.72, 2410.29)
So again, we were pretty close to the what the percentages the tooltips would have worked out to be.
To me, that would confirm that there is an issue with the TS damage of Chronitons...and...I would use that confirmation as confirmation of the issue with both TS & HY with both Chronitons & Transphasics.
Of course, again this all started by noticing the low numbers with the Elachi Subspace Torpedo - so let's take a look at what that gives, eh?
First the tooltips...
Elachi: 4188.3
TS3 - 2140.6 - 51.19%
TS2 - 2533.2 - 60.48%
TS1 - 3323.8 - 79.36%
Second some testing (same method as earlier)...
Elachi Avg: 4236.69
(4289.45, 4251.26, 4460.32, 4125.56, 4068.44, 4432.84, 4468.97, 3907.07, 4277.94, 4085.04)
TS3 (x4) Avg - 2310.27 - 54.53%
(2459.6, 2321.78, 2111.16, 2394.77, 2361.62, 2199.16, 2125.56, 2395.73, 2550.46, 2182.81)
TS2 (x3) Avg - 2755.97 - 65.05%
(2853.59, 2593.37, 2698.98, 2957.34, 2603.71, 2548.95, 2586.92, 2779.61, 2990.96, 2946.27)
TS1 (x2) Avg - 3656.81 - 86.31%
(3785.03, 3833.62, 3960.1, 3491.26, 3570.96, 3940.65, 3353.48, 3323.25, 3499.71, 3810.05)
Curious numbers there, eh? ~3-5% higher than the tooltips. The TS1 sample average is near the Quant/Photon percentage while the TS2/TS3 are ~3-4% lower than the Quant/Photon percentage.
Not as big a hit as the Chron/Trans, but don't forget the report on the VR Bio Photons from the Rep Store only hitting as hard as Rare Bio Photons from the boxes (2.5% difference): http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1191821
Now to see if all the King's horses and all the King's men, can put ol' Willard the Rat back together again...meh.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Wee bit confused. You're saying there's a problem with torps like chroniton and transphasic dealing less damage than photon and quantum for their tradeoff profs? Transphasic less for the shield penetration, chroniton for speed and turn rate debuff. Do correct me if I'm wrong
Transphasic are pretty much obsolete now. Quantum will do the same type of hull bleedthough with all the other benefits. I keep looking at Quantum and thinking they seem to be the best of everything with the right traits. High hull bleed though like Transphasic, high DoT like Plasma, fast travel time, larger explosion radios, higher raw damage. That and with torpedo spread having a higher damage modifier why use any other torpedo?
Sometimes I think the devs hate or don’t care about projectiles. It feels like the devs ignored all the bug reports about projectile crafting which is still broken today, ignored the missing projectiles in the fleet store, ignored the different damage boosts to different torpedoes from torpedo spread and high yield for years, ignored the broken lobi mines that does under half the damage of normal mines and the list goes on.
Nope, not what I'm saying. Chron/Trans do less damage than Quants for their "specials" and Photons do less damage than Quants for their "recharge"...
Say we just look at the Quant vs. Chron (since that's what I focused in the original post)...
The base damage (TRIBBLE/Mk 0) for a Quantum Torpedo is 1503.
The base damage (TRIBBLE/Mk 0) for a Chroniton Torpedo is 1158.
The Chroniton has a base damage of ~77.05% that of the Quantum - which it gives up for the "special". There's no issue there. The issue I'm talking about are the modifiers to damage for HY & TS.
For the Quantum and TS/HY, we saw above the following percentages for the modifiers from the tooltip calculations...
TS3 - 58.96%
TS2 - 68.95%
TS1 - 89.04%
HY3 - 73.70%
HY2 - 86.18%
HY1 - 111.35%
For the Chroniton, we saw the following...
TS3 - 44.38%
TS2 - 52.52%
TS1 - 68.92%
HY3 - 55.48%
HY2 - 65.65%
HY1 - 86.14%
Both the Quants and Chrons fire the same number of torpedoes for each of those attacks.
Those percentages are a percentage of the standard torpedo damage.
So with the standard Chroniton already doing ~77% the damage of the standard Quantum...
TS3 - 57.99% the damage per torp
TS2 - 58.69% the damage per torp
TS1 - 59.64% the damage per torp
HY3 - 58.00% the damage per torp
HY2 - 58.69% the damage per torp
HY1 - 59.60% the damage per torp
...it's not maintaining the ~77% damage - it's doing less damage.
Basically, a standard Chroniton shot is more competitive against a standard Quantum shot (doing ~77% the damage) than it is when used with TS/HY (~57.99% to ~59.64%)...
Chroniton, and Transphasic Torpedoes get a 222% damage boost.
Photon Grav torps get a 162.5% damage (grav chance boosted to 100% from 30%)
Photon get a 296.8% damage boost.
Quantum get a 294.8% damage boost.
Plasma gets a 400% damage boost (but is destructible too make up for the extra boost)
The grav and plasma make sense. The rest look broken but have always been like that.
Yeah, being broken for an extended period of time doesn't mean that it's necessarily working as intended. Could have been recognized previously but didn't make the cut, so it'd be nice to have it recognized again with the hopes of it making the cut this time around...
The chroniton percentages are roughly 77% of the Quantum percentages... (I think that's what you mean with "double dinged"? I'm no native english speaker).
So: Chroniton is 77% base dmg of a Quantum, and it seems as if you use a BO ability, this percentage is calculated a second time on the damage. Do I see that right?
Say we had two torps, Torp-A and Torp-B. They each have a different amount of damage - that we're not concerned with for this. We use an ability to buff those torps. We'll use the 77% number, okay? We'll use the Buff as the name for the value of the buff.
Torp-A * (Buff * 1) = damage
Torp-B * (Buff * 0.77) = damage
With the double-dinged, that's the appearance it had with one of the torps. That the difference in the base damage between the two was being applied twice - once to the base damage and once to the buff. Additional testing showed that was not the case, since different torps with different base damages were experiencing the same reduction from the buff. So it's just a case of them not receiving the full buff from the buff.
And well, with the TS (&FAW) thing that came up recently with traits...yeah, yeah...anyway.
But honestly...
Base Damage
Recharge
Effect
...imho, should be where the balancing comes into play - not a double ding with TS/HY as well.
http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/2v6g7d/i_will_need_volunteers_for_an_experiment/
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"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
So instead of moving three torps up...they'd instead move how many torps down? And down to which...so they'd even nerf them more? That's kind of pessimistic.
Pretty much yeah. Perhaps they'd use Chroniton for the baseline. Who knows. But as for the pessimism, do you entirely blame me? As you might say:
"They has been a lot of nerfing lately, yeah?" :P
btw, the most of what u call nerfs i'd rather call fixes (viral torp, ionic, attempt for plasma doping that made it worse somehow
Have you not played this game?!?! It seems anytime something is "outside the norm", things are brought down, NEVER "up". :P
no matter that, this thread is about the enhancement for torpedos, the abilities. not the torps itselves.
i'll give them that they're that conscient
If that's the case, it remains to be seen if Bort is willing to go through every Torp in existence to "fix" the discrepancies, as he refused to do so with the thousands of doffs in existence.
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somehow that post scares me :eek:... clarification by dev-side really would be helpful on this i guess.
Considering they did their so called fix, in regards to how much modifying TS & HY impose upon said skills 1, 2, 3.
I believe they made it a global change so, what might be happening is that flat rate effect, might not be quite so great on the lower dpv torpedoes, while looking nicer for the higher dpv torpedoes.
This not to say they didn't mess up the #'s but, than again, I never understood the whole need for reduced dpv using a TS in the first place, especially the higher the skill degree becomes.
I mean, imagine if they implemented such a change to BFAW, as they did to TS?
Look how BFAW1 actually lowers each shots dpv, now imagine if BFAW2 & 3, worked in fashion to TS2 & 3, by lowering the dpv of each shot even worse the higher # skill you use!!!
You would find a whole lot of people, quickly turned off of using them so much and, complaining of said changes while at the same time, looking into alternatives and possibly using BFAW1 instead of 2 & 3.
I mean, granted the skills of TS vs BFAW are different, only in the fact that TS is limited to how many additional torpedoes are fired per target and, how many targets overall but, the overall concepts are pretty similar.
Both are multiple targeting attacks, that implement multiple attacks per target allowed, yet BFAW awards you with higher degree usage, while TS punishes you for using higher degree usage so to speak.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I thought that was bug reported as well? It's not meant to do it. I've joked about it also in a few of the FAW complaint threads. The thing with FAW1 ignoring the...what was it...it ignores the Quality/Rarity, no?
If you've got Common Mk whatever beams, the the damage is as expected with FAW1-FAW3. The moment you go to Uncommon and start working your way up, the lack of the Rarity boost kicks in and FAW1 no longer works as expected compared to FAW2/3.
* * * * *
As for the adjustments they made to the Neutronic to bring it in line with other torps, the TS/HY appears to be coded into the torps - so each one has to be adjusted. Those mentioned in this thread at the time of the thread, had not been adjusted up to match those numbers leaving the particular torps to underperform with said weapon enhancements.
They adjusted the neutronic torpedo but, also the TS skill itself I believe got effected as well.
Even though, it states they adjusted the neutronic being effected by TS.
I believe they goofed and, the result effected all torpedoes using the TS skill but, I cannot prove it for say.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22158941&postcount=36
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