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Discussion Thread: Space Metagame Changes

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  • paradise1killerparadise1killer Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Been playing DR a lot, and frankly, Tachyon Beam needs a serious boost because in PvE is does practically nothing now.

    On another note, nice new Tachyon Beam doff. Too bad it's a DR Pack exclusive.

    What if instead of tach beam draining a set number it drain a %. This would allow it to be great in pve against elite bosses but not overpowered in pvp.

    Example
    Tach 1 = deplets 30% of all shield facing
    Tach 2 = 40%
    Tach 3 = 50%

    Charge particle burst
    Tier 1 = 10% all shield facing
    Tier 2 = 20%
    Tier3 = 30 %

    Now all thes value might need to be reduced by 10% or more to take into console boost but this would be fair and allow it to be competitive in PvE and PvP.]
    Nova Core
    ParadiseKiller

    House of Beautiful Orions
    Zeadonouse
    ToLate
  • caldannachcaldannach Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    saxfire wrote: »
    U did know that each point to Driver Coil boosts abilities that have any kind of fligh speed or turn rate?

    Examples: Apo Apa Gamma Pattern Tac Fleet(Trait) Evasive Maneuvers Deuterium Surpus

    Just examples. 1 Point in driver coil boosts them by 1%, essentially doubles the turn/speed bonuses.


    Driver Coil is OP as ****.

    Why would driver coil do this? Surely thats maneuver or impulse skills?
    " Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    caldannach wrote: »
    Why would driver coil do this? Surely thats maneuver or impulse skills?

    Here's an old thread that I created when Legacy of Romulus was still on Tribble.

    Change to Evasive Maneuvers and Deuterium Burn

    As far as I know, these changes were never included in the patch notes. There seem to be undocumented changes every release. When the changes adjudicatorhawk is working on get released, I hope everything is documented clearly.
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2014
    playhard88 wrote: »
    Shield drain is boring and frustrating. The only time when it worked was when tetryon glider was overpowered, and watch your shield being drain in a few seconds without nothing to counter it was no fun at all.
    If they bring back the shield drain, this is going to be really boring, you only need to coordinate the shield drain with the vape and bye (shield drain + hight yield with those nasty reputation torps = gg), we have enough with all the shield bypass stuff, add shield drain to the equation is going to be worst.
    I'm all forward in having more variety for builds, but i dont want shield drain back.

    It's not bringing it back, it's adjusting it up from where it is. Heck, it's not like people ever used it back in S5 (and I remember clearly never seeing it used), and since then we've had shield power creep on all fronts.

    1) Embassy consoles
    2) Reputations
    3) Ship mastery
    4) Specialization
    5) Traits
    6) Ship traits

    I'm not saying to make it overpowered, but considering the massive power creep shield healing/regeneration wise, Tachyon beam, the tetryon proc, and anti-proton sweep need some adjustments upwards to account for all these additions.
  • omega657omega657 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Just my 2 cents,

    As a science char. I feel that science powers are woefully inadequate for the current meta ,even when players spec into them fully , u just get too little for what u give .

    Proposed Changes

    tachyon beam - instead of draining all 4 shieldings side , just drain one side but 6 to 8 times more powerful in a shorter amount of time , this will increase its effectiveness without being game breaking

    Energy siphon - adequate but reduced the time needed for the energy to reach the user

    Tyken Rift - horrible , just horrible ability , pls buff DRAIN and RADIUS and duration



    I also proposed a change to abilities that cofuse and placate

    Sensore jam - pls remove the stupid condition that allow a enemy player to see u if u do more than 2 K damage to enemy

    NEW ABILITY - sramble enemy targeting sensors - a simple ability that causes targeted enemy to miss 40 %of its shots ( increases with rank , duh )

    Sramble enemy sensors , unique and useful ability just buff duration by A LOT

    Viral matrix - decent ability but u should add a unique condition to it , allow it to have a 30 % chance for the the virus to trigger an unwanted warp core over load xD ( chance increases with rank duh )


    OTHERS ABLILITES

    Photonics officer - just buff it

    Gravity well - buff exotic damage

    There are some other science abilities that I won't cover . Cryptic , do ur own research



    Oh yeah , buffing torpedoes won't hurt either......

    Stay tune for more !!! XD
  • rygelx16rygelx16 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    First and foremost the 4 captain abilities need to be changed or adjusted. Each class should have an offensive, defensive, debuff and utility power. These should be close in results but different in play style. Tacs can still have a slight edge in damage but not by such an over the top amount as they do now, same goes for engis and defense and sci with support. So let me break down some ideas for each, some will stay the same.

    Offensive: all 30 sec with 2 min CD

    Tac: Attack Pattern Alpha. Stays the same.

    Eng: EPS Power Transfer. Rename EPS power Overload. Keep power transfer rate buff. Add bufs based on power levels such as damage based of current weapon power and/or crit based off aux. The numbers should be close to APA at max levels.

    Sci: Photonic Fleet. This need allot of work in the bug department but the ships should remain for the full 30 seconds regardless of combat state. The ships are untargetable and provide some damage but each one buffs you, one for damage, one buffs crit, etc. Again numbers should be close to APA while taking into account the damage the ships do.

    Defensive: or "Oh Sh*T" buttons. All same CD.

    Tac: Go Down Fighting. Largely the same but add a shield heal on attack to get close to the amount of shield heal you get from miracle worker. Maybe tone down the damage boost some but enough that tac still has a slight edge in damage.

    Eng: Miracle Worker. Stays the same.

    Sci: Scattering Field. Much like GDF, add a shield heal. Could even be an AOE shield heal as they are none in the game. Because it is an aoe the numbers should not be quite as high as Miracle Worker but still a substantial "oh Sh*t" button. Have it scale with a skill rather than aux though, sci feels too dependent on aux as a captain where the others don't directly depend on any 1 power level as much.

    Debuff:

    Tac: Fire on my Mark. keep the same

    Eng: Nadion inversion. Complete replace this ability. In the current game power level resist is taken care of in much more efficient ways than a 3 min CD. Even without the gear this has a very negligible impact on anything. So lets replace it with a much needed DR debuff. Sci has AOE and Tac has single target so lets make this one a 3-5 target chain ability that decreases in effectiveness for each target it hits.

    Sci: Sensor Scan. keep the same but like Scattering field have it scale with a skill rather than aux power for the same reasons.

    Utility:

    Tac: Tactical Initiative. Keep the same.

    Eng: Rotate Shield Frequency. Keep the same for now I think, gives eng a slight edge in survival.

    Sci: Subnuclonic Beam. While the cooldown drain buff is nice in pvp it doesn't really impact much in pve. Even the buff removal is negligible in PvE. I would still keep the buff removal but as a compromise I would add a damage output and healing received debuff in place of the cool down reduction debuff.

    Well those are some ideas anyway. Sure some may not like them but I think they are on the right track to class balance. The current pigeon holeing them into fixed roles is not good IMO. They need to be more flexible, which in turn makes them more fun.
  • soundwisdomsoundwisdom Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    rygelx16 wrote: »
    Not going to argue/debate with anyone who disagrees as these are my opinions and you are welcome to your own.

    It's hard to even want to read a post that has this at the beginning or the end. The point is discussion and debate to generate results. Don't like it; Live Journal is >>>>>> that way.
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Now that the NPCs have ridiculous shield HP values, shield drains *should* be extremely prominent sci powers. Instead they're just visual FX that does nothing.

    Making them strong enough to leave a mark unbalances them for pvp, though, since players have the same shield strength as before. The suggestion previously to change drains into percentage values has a lot of merit, otherwise the only way these powers can be fixed is to give them different effectiveness against players.
  • thorexxxxthorexxxx Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Hi all,

    In our preparation for Delta Rising, we've been taking a hard look at Space powers and abilities that are underperforming, as well as a select few that dominate the choices players make across the board. The purpose of this thread is for the community to come together and discuss what powers they feel meet either of these two categories, and to talk frankly about any problems with the current metagame of Star Trek Online.

    I'm going to largely be lurking in this thread, but may chime in from time to time. Let's see if we can civilly and rationally discuss what we think are problems, and more importantly why we think those powers are problematic. I want to see what you all care about, and see what changes we can make to address things that you care about while making the game a better game, with a more interesting decision-tree structure that defines your "best action to take at any given time" during space combat.

    LIAR ! :mad:
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    thorexxxx wrote: »
    LIAR ! :mad:
    You have no reason to spout such accusations.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2014
    thorexxxx wrote: »
    LIAR ! :mad:

    Wow, the anger.

    Well, back to topic.

    IF tachyon beam gets changed to a % base (which sounds good in theory), it should still scale appropriately with flow caps skill, otherwise, some builds (like mine) get completely broken.

    Yes, tachyon beam 3 in particular still works very well in PvP, but you have to sacrifice a lot for that. If changed to a percentage, the skills should remain as effective as they are now for PvP and become more effective in PvE.
  • dam999dam999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    As someone already mentioned, make an engineer a more capable character in terms of DPS.

    EPS / weapon overload comparable to APA of the tac captain would do the trick.

    Engineers are the least desired class in space (at ground they are good).
    Nadion inversion is useless as well.
    Reduce the CD on the miracle worker.
    I mean, many people are leaving STO because an engineer character is not sought for in PvE since it's just stalling others and in PvP its just too weak..
    Just make engineer a worthy class when it comes to dealing DPS in space. We've been waiting for it for years..
    If its money, you can make it purchasable by zen or something, whatever it takes, just give engineers some edge in dealing damage, not in bulkiness or healing capabilities, already too much of that..

    Doubt that anyone will read this but there you go.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    dam999 wrote: »
    As someone already mentioned, make an engineer a more capable character in terms of DPS.

    EPS / weapon overload comparable to APA of the tac captain would do the trick.

    Engineers are the least desired class in space (at ground they are good).
    Nadion inversion is useless as well.
    Reduce the CD on the miracle worker.
    I mean, many people are leaving STO because an engineer character is not sought for in PvE since it's just stalling others and in PvP its just too weak..
    Just make engineer a worthy class when it comes to dealing DPS in space. We've been waiting for it for years..
    If its money, you can make it purchasable by zen or something, whatever it takes, just give engineers some edge in dealing damage, not in bulkiness or healing capabilities, already too much of that..

    Doubt that anyone will read this but there you go.

    if you want your engie to do anything but be a heal boat, you should have gave up on it and roled a tac years ago. but there is some small new DPS synergy that engies can best exploit, sure they cant also stack APA on top of it, but its better then nothing.

    those 2 engie captain skills having to do with drain and power boosting work well with the intel skill override subsystem safeties. they can get the most out of that bypassed weapons power hard cap the skill provides by reducing drain thanks to overcaping or drain res.

    if power levels weren't hard caped at the knees like they are, engies through their power boosting potential would be great at DPS, cause each point of additional energy is worth 2% damage. OSS breaking hard caps finally lets engies use that potential. as long as you buy a tier 6 ship.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    if you want your engie to do anything but be a heal boat, you should have gave up on it and roled a tac years ago.
    Another important note for the devs to see. Careers aren't balanced/equally valuable.
  • xigbargxigbarg Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Would it be absurd to suggest a mixed bag Boff ability?

    EX:
    Tactical Team I: Best damage boost, that's it.
    Tactical Team II: Modest Damage boost + reduced weapon cool down (cooldown would be dependent on the length of the cool down. Less effective on cannons, more effective for torpedoes, lance, maybe beams.)
    Tactical Team III: Basically an untouched/original version of TT III




    Engineering Team I: Best flat heal
    Engineering Team II: Small heal + heal over time (Better healer than I over time)
    Engineering Team III: Modest heal + boff cool down reduction.

    Aux to Struc could have better defense boosts to compensate (Hopefully ignoring diminishing returns).




    Science Team I: Strongest flat shield heal
    Science Team II: Modest shield heal + Chance to activate a random science ability without cool down.
    Science Team III: Modest shield heal + boost in all science abilitys
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    One thing I would really like to see is a streamlining/fixing of the UI in all aspects.

    In space/ground combat all abilities take far too long to react to a button click or a keypress. The Activation delay's aren't needed, they just cause things not to function when the player wants them too, or in some cases to function when the player DOESN'T want them to.

    Interfaces like the R&D interface, Reputation System and so on don't need 5s timers to finish for simple tasks, they also don't need to have delays that make a 30s task take 5 mins (like setting 4 R&D projects on ESD). Smoothing out those would go a long way to fixing a lot of the pain players have to suffer through.

    Other things like UI positioning, chat window usage, inventory management, window sizing and size memory, window positioning, exchange search and categorisation, item categorisation, sort functions, all of these could do with a redesign to modern standards. Currently they are only avg for standards from 5 years ago and in some cases far from being even close to useful.
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Look on some videos on youtube where guys can give out insane amounts of damage? Because 99% missions in STO are only about damage in the time limit.
    Defensive play is punished. Kirking with BFAW, APB and keybind on everything is these day the best way to "play" STO. Look on video, where a guy can solo Infested space. Look on video, where a guy can do 100k dps, while most players do not even 10k dps , join at the weekend in a random queue and see.
    Why use any ablitity other than damage boost? Why npcs are immune to placate but not against stacking debuffs (i looking on you APBeta).

    Plasmonic leech for everyone , no dimishing return on tac consoles = bad days for torpedoes

    List of weak abilities (you call them boff powers):
    1) Boarding Party - totally useless everywhere now, I would suggest to extend the duration of the effect in pvp 3x and 6x in PvE. And add some additional debuff like -rezz and/or -defense.
    2) Aceton Beam - add -rezz debuff and increase damage
    3) Tachyon Beam - compare to beam overload very weak , buff drain at least 3x
    4) Charged Particle Burst - compare to BFAW...
    5) Photonic Shockwave - compare to BFAW
    6) Viral Matrix- useless in pve , add some debuffs for pve
    7) Jam Sensors - useless in pve, add at least acurracy debuff
    8) Polarize Hull - add immunity to TBR and FBP
    9) Target subsystem x - remove shared cd with other beam abilities
    10) Directed Energy Modulation- without Marion doff (what is extreme expensive) is weak
    11) Mask energy signature- add defense buff
    12) Tyken's Rift - buff dmg for pve 3x

    List of powerfull abilities:
    1) Beam:Fire at will- add weapon energy drain like old Beam overload
    2) Attack pattern Beta- remove debuff stacking
    3) Attack pattern Omega- to much benefits , it needs slightly nerf
    4) Cannon: Scatter volley- same as BFAW, but not too much

    List of powerfull consoles:
    1) Shield absorbtive frequency generator- add healing cap
    2) Plasmonic leech- remove or nerf power gain
    3) Vulneability locator etc.- add diminishing returns for multiple consoles

    List of powerfull boffs:
    1) Superior romulan operative- add diminishing returns for multiple boffs
    2) remove stacking bonuses for decloak
    3) multiple intel disables are game-breaking for pvp
    4) reduce technician doffs from 3 to 2
    5) particle manipulator trait crits with high points in particles are insane
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Well, no point to this thread now as Hawk left. Heck, no point in asking for the ground R&D school crafting to be fixed to add the new mods since he also was in charge of that.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Well, no point to this thread now as Hawk left. Heck, no point in asking for the ground R&D school crafting to be fixed to add the new mods since he also was in charge of that.

    intel skills changed everything anyway. like, pushed everything past a point of no return, were a skill overhaul that creates balance and harmony between everything is literally impossible.

    all this thread probably would have done is get AtB nerfed anyway. sad to see hawk go though, is borticus the only one working on this type of thing now?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2014
    While Hawk was certainly spearheading this, he was not along in his efforts. He left us with a pretty solid proposal on this subject when he left, backed up by a good amount of actual formulaic data analysis. Most of us have reviewed and agreed with his findings and conclusions. But it's still going to take time to prototype, test, review and iterate on. And now that we're a 1-person-smaller team, our time is even more of a precious commodity, so I'm not certain when we can take action.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The departure of the developer who started this thread doesn't mean there won't be work on game systems. I don't see any reason to stop the discussion.
  • origcaptainquackorigcaptainquack Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    why dont cryptic hire more people to replace the ones that are leaving?
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
    edited November 2014
    why dont cryptic hire more people to replace the ones that are leaving?

    Because that would cost money.
  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,172 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    why dont cryptic hire more people to replace the ones that are leaving?
    illcadia wrote: »
    Because that would cost money.

    http://crypticstudios.com/openings

    Oh look, they are hiring. :rolleyes:
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    While Hawk was certainly spearheading this, he was not along in his efforts. He left us with a pretty solid proposal on this subject when he left, backed up by a good amount of actual formulaic data analysis. Most of us have reviewed and agreed with his findings and conclusions. But it's still going to take time to prototype, test, review and iterate on. And now that we're a 1-person-smaller team, our time is even more of a precious commodity, so I'm not certain when we can take action.

    Great news -- I was a bit worried hearing about Hawk's departure because I was really looking forward to these possible revamps, but it's nice to know the project wasn't his alone and you'll (hopefully) still be getting around to it. :)
  • edited November 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    reximuz wrote: »
    http://crypticstudios.com/openings

    Oh look, they are hiring. :rolleyes:

    Since when does Cryptic have a Seattle office? o.o

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
    Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    While Hawk was certainly spearheading this, he was not along in his efforts. He left us with a pretty solid proposal on this subject when he left, backed up by a good amount of actual formulaic data analysis. Most of us have reviewed and agreed with his findings and conclusions. But it's still going to take time to prototype, test, review and iterate on. And now that we're a 1-person-smaller team, our time is even more of a precious commodity, so I'm not certain when we can take action.

    Sounds a lot like those leaderboards that snix already had in testing, before he left....soo glad all that work didn't go to waste
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited November 2014
    A lot of things that I wanted to comment on have already been addressed (and in greater detail, thank you, Community).

    My personal take on what would make some aspects of the game better focus on Space Combat.

    1: A True, 3D space maneuvering combat system. Full XYZ 360 movement. Space combat would be most epic, and you will see more video's of space combat and battles because of it (which translates to free advertising & more people playing & paying).

    2. An overhaul of weapon classification & how they interact w/ BOffs/DOffs/Ship Bonuses/etc. My own personal gripe is the Experimental Proton Weapon in combination w/ Beam Overload and the Beam Overload DOffs.

    Thank you.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
    Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
    Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
    "A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
    I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited February 2015
    After seeing the Tachyon console from the new ships, a suggestion.

    Change Tachyon Beam 1,2,3 so they're more powerful against NPCs and bump their shield drain amounts so that Tachy 3 drains as much as the console against player.

    That console I rank right up there with the Voth Aceton console as best-in-class for science. Too bad you stuck it in a cruiser which sucks.
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