Thats cause it has never made a whole class redundant. Explain to me how an engineer is going to tank a 80-100,000 damage hit.
To put this in retrospect. Cloaked Vapers will now hit like Donatra in KSE. 1 shot, no matter what hull you have, resists... doesn't matter. The damage is so far over capped that even dedi-tanks can't survive it.
OPvP has been testing it all day on tribble. There is no surviving it.
It might make tank cruisers worthwhile now. A decent tank cruiser can take a 100k hit without an problem.
Um...it's a 25% reduction in BO damage. A BO after the patch will only hit 75% as hard as it did before the patch. There will be more of the 75% damage BO crits than there were non-BO crits, and thus the average damage of the BO hits will increase...but the BO itself is going to hit for less damage.
The potential gain/issue will come from the removal of the drain and what that means for the rest of the weapons hitting as well as various boosts one might have from various Cores/Traits.
even with the higher kinetic resist on most armors nowadays, imagine this + motivation + deadly intent + every tac buff you can squeeze off...we're talking potential 1k+ plus sniper hits after resist every 3 seconds until either motivation or deadly intent wears off
most players don't get above 600 or so HP
1k? That is utterly pathetic, my fleet's top sniper hits more in the 4k and above range. This has already been tested and when it comes down to it the TR-116B was taking 20 shots to kill something that was taking the MACO 4 or 5.
Now granted you may be referring to PvP, but even in PvE this rifle was terrible, and that was on normal difficulty. We also need to remember that Science and Engineering Officers need to be able to enjoy this thing as well, and at the moment that just isn't possible.
On another note, thanks for putting Craylon into missions finally, I'm really looking forward to running those queues again.
Dunno what to make of the Beam Overload Buff yet, seeing as no one in this thread can get off their high horse about PvP (which is essentially just about shattering fragments of what's left of it anyway) and actually do some PvE testing to get a balanced view of how it is working. As it is this came out in the middle of the night for me and I have no time to test it, so thanks for the one-sided testing as ever.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
You're nuts right? They have been testing this all day. Some of the best tanks in PvP, with ships sitting on close to 97K hull get insta popped.
Its 100K applied, after resists.
Are you really saying the new Beam overload is doing well over 200k raw damage! how? I run at well over 60% hull resistance at I think it was over 60k hull hitpoints. Not in game right now to check. Without the 15k shields I should still take a 100k blast without a problem. Factor in shields and 150k hits do not 1 shot kill.
Um...it's a 25% reduction in BO damage. A BO after the patch will only hit 75% as hard as it did before the patch. There will be more of the 75% damage BO crits than there were non-BO crits, and thus the average damage of the BO hits will increase...but the BO itself is going to hit for less damage.
The potential gain/issue will come from the removal of the drain and what that means for the rest of the weapons hitting as well as various boosts one might have from various Cores/Traits.
Apart from players might no longer care about crit chance and can swap over for crit serv instead. What if I swap all my tac consoles to boost crit damage as I no longer need crit chance tac consoles?
I need to test more but I will crit more and do more damage per crit after the change.
even with the higher kinetic resist on most armors nowadays, imagine this + motivation + deadly intent + every tac buff you can squeeze off...we're talking potential 1k+ plus sniper hits after resist every 3 seconds until either motivation or deadly intent wears off
I still miss the old BO from way back when at the very beginning where BO caused each of your arrays to fire off an overloaded shot rather than just 1. Having a succession of slightly more powerful shots from all of your arrays rather than one nuke from a single array would even out the issue of your arrays getting the BO instead of a DBB, and could affect the alpha and impact of various mods a bit.
Apart from players might no longer care about crit chance and can swap over for crit serv instead. What if I swap all my tac consoles to boost crit damage as I no longer need crit chance tac consoles?
I need to test more but I will crit more and do more damage per crit after the change.
Are you just running a DBB for a BO every 30s, every 15s while running 2x BO, running CD reduction on the BO? No other weapons...no Clickies...no Sci Abilities that do damage?
Cause otherwise, why are you going to give up your Locators for Exploiters? Only the BO's going to be at 100% crit...you'd lose all sorts of damage by giving up the Locators depending on the build.
But let's take a look at switching 4x Locators for Exploiters, and just the DBB - ignoring everything else...keeping it simple with 100% to-hit but no Accuracy Overflow:
While also having given up the 6.4% CrtH for everything else that's not going to have the 100% CrtH.
It would have been 45232 instead of 48338 if you hadn't given up the Locators for the Exploiters...but yeah, it's going to drop from 60309.2 to 45232 with the change.
What's the Current without a Crit though?
Damage = 2749.5 * 4.707 * 2.744 = 35512.563996
And tada, that's where you're going to get your average gain...cause you'll be looking at your number of Crits with anywhere between ~20-30% CrtH with Crits doing 60309.2 and non-Crits doing 35512.6 damage to each of the BOs (all Crits) doing 45232 damage.
Even though it doesn't work this way, it's a chance not a guarantee...but if you had 30% CrtH and did 100 BOs...the average "would be" 42951.6...so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage. 20% "would be" 40471.9 - so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage, etc, etc, etc...
So perhaps that's why they did the No Drain as well...cause of the hit that the BO is actually taking in max damage.
Still have a feeling - it would need testing - that in the end though, folks are still probably going to come out ahead in the damage they're doing in a short period. That -50 Weapon Power is -100% damage for other Energy Weapon attacks, messes with Cores, etc. Sure, folks could counter it...Hell, folks were doing 2-3x BOs before that change. But still feel some testing needed to be done for how it would all play out in that regard...
Are you just running a DBB for a BO every 30s, every 15s while running 2x BO, running CD reduction on the BO? No other weapons...no Clickies...no Sci Abilities that do damage?
Cause otherwise, why are you going to give up your Locators for Exploiters? Only the BO's going to be at 100% crit...you'd lose all sorts of damage by giving up the Locators depending on the build.
........
Well I only have 1 DBB fitted for my torp boat. But I was thinking along the lines of 8 energy weapons all with 2.5% chance to proc beam overload and perhaps EptW3. Then focus on crit damage over crit chance. You still end up with a respectable crit chance for all the other weapons but you get a ton of crazy BO's.
I am already on 100% severity without focusing on severity. Dropping down to 20% crit chance to gain a large amount of severity seems worth while.
Well I only have 1 DBB fitted for my torp boat. But I was thinking along the lines of 8 energy weapons all with 2.5% chance to proc beam overload and perhaps EptW3. Then focus on crit damage over crit chance. You still end up with a respectable crit chance for all the other weapons but you get a ton of crazy BO's.
Have they stated whether there's an internal cooldown of any sort on the chance to [Over] or not?
Hrmm, I guess I could hit up Tribble and try to crank out some [Over] Arrays to see if I get any [Over] procs within a 15s period or not.
You can buy over mk2 items very cheap to test with that's what I did. You said -50 power but I thougth they removed that?
The -50 was for how it is now...not what it will be. My concern is about the lack of the drain, since it's +2% damage per point of Weapon Power; not losing that 50 weapon power means all the other weapons can gain up to 100% or more damage when using a BO after the patch.
Wishing there had been more time to compare the 25% lost on the BO to what's gained by everything else...
It is a step in the right direction however, and it might not need the extra damage now if that works, however someone will inevitably need to test it, hopefully the same guy who tested it before could do another round for it (I would but don't want to waste the EC from the exchange and certainly not paying dilithium to get the crafting done).
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
BO will remain a substantial burst damage tool, but as much as possible I want to move combat out of the "one-shot" territory and out of the "infinite slugfest" territory, and towards a happy medium where people die under focused fire but have a chance to react and outplay.
You do realize that people on Tribble have been one shot killing each other on Tribble and boasting about it with this change, so you're definitely still in the "one-shot" territory.
You do realize that people on Tribble have been one shot killing each other on Tribble and boasting about it with this change, so you're definitely still in the "one-shot" territory.
Yup. They have been testing it all day. It's fisting all none cloaking escorts badly.
You gotta remember, even if the beam misses or you survive on bare single digits of health. They then also have full power to weapons to lay in cannons.
There is no hull amount in the game players can have that will stop this. Considering UI lag and the fact you literally have 1-3 seconds to respond.
It's fine for a skill to have downsides, but in BO's case that downside wasn't really communicated well, and it was overtuned to the point of making a DPS cooldown a DPS loss. BO being bad also forced FAW to be good at both Single Target and AoE. With BO present as a single-target beam power, we can hypothetically refocus Fire at Will to be more about Area of Effect and less rewarding if used on only a single target.
This seems to be the cornerstone motivation so I would like to address it.
A beam boat can kill almost any single target with high-intensity pressure damage, without using FAW at all. Over-capping weapon power, attack patterns, DEM3, ..., a solid beam boat can kill anything that isnt running 125 power to shields and aux-to-damp on full rotation. FAW is certainly helpful in stacking a little more power onto a target but it is not needed. Thus your premise that FAW fills the role is mistaken, it is optional but wholly unnecessary and there are a lot of reasons not to use it.
The problem is that FAW does too much damage to all targets. It should be debuffed a bit. Maybe you could divide damage across multiple targets, and reduce weapon drain so that consistent damage across multiple targets is higher, while removing the buff to spike.
The thing is, BO doesn't compete with FAW. I use them for entirely different builds.
Even with permacrits, I'm never going to use BO in a beam boat, because I will be using FAW.
Doesn't matter how much DPS FAW does, because if I have a beam on my cannon boats I'm using it for spike BOs.
That said, BO needed a buff because it wasn't competitive enough with just dropping the DBB for an extra DHC. The BO buff will do nothing to change my use of FAW. They are apples and oranges.
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let me guess...due to the way you coded the [Over] mod that is apparently not supposed to drain power when it procs, this was the only way you were able to fix that issue without resorting to very convoluted code hacks?
and this just made DBBs with [CrtD]x3 far more valuable
BWAHAHAH this is EXACTLY the first thing I thought...they couldn't figure it out so...FRAK IT - BO no longer takes power! Fixed!
I have stopped playing ground PvP for it being all about Tactical and their Motivation with 100% critical hit. Now I have to stop playing space PvP too?
Vapers could already kill in a less then a second if made properly. Why you still calling it Critical Hit chance if it is 100% now?
Nonsense.
__________________
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With some of the recent weapons proving powerful in PvP, adding Beam Overload 100% crit, it's not going to be much fun. Engineers, didn't have much to do in space other than tank and FAW, now tanking will be a lot harder, Engineers even more irrelevant...
Can we ever get some real focus or thought on PvP balance for a change? Just for a change...
To bad they were actually listening to this uninformed feedback. 20% penetration wasn't to bad, now they tweaked it to 100% penetration which makes shields completely useless... including anything thats related to that. Maco armor, the engineer class....
As stated by the dev's the TR116-b wasn't performing as intended, guess the intention then was to kill the engineer class off, cause thats what this gun will do now.. maybe ground pvp even alltogether.. cause one-shotting has never been any easier:
That "sniper" type of gun also has no red-line same as the other low level TR-116 gun, which means in a pvp game you never know anyone even shot that at you... until you suddenly fall over dead, which will no doubt now happen a lot in pvp.
So yea, great job on that gun, also cool that we had a whole day of testing on tribble before that nonsense went to holodeck. Maybe cryptic should hire some new developer for ground, one with an actual feeling for balance on ground, cause that seems to have gone completely missing since the xindi lockbox apparently.
That "sniper" type of gun also has no red-line same as the other low level TR-116 gun, which means in a pvp game you never know anyone even shot that at you... until you suddenly fall over dead, which will no doubt now happen a lot in pvp.
so, basically, they made it realistic...finally something they managed to do right
now they just need to remove the idiotic 'look at me, i'm sniping you!' lines from every other sniper rifle in the game, too, as well as the chargeup time
sniper shots are supposed to be instant - that and the fact you don't know a sniper is around until it's too late is what makes them so feared by armies around the world
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BO will remain a substantial burst damage tool, but as much as possible I want to move combat out of the "one-shot" territory and out of the "infinite slugfest" territory, and towards a happy medium where people die under focused fire but have a chance to react and outplay.
Hawk, this is in your court now to fix. We're still knee deep in the one-shot territory and PvP has become a BO fest where the fastest to shoot and land a hit wins.
Comments
So instead they make BO just as OP, if not worse.
You're nuts right? They have been testing this all day. Some of the best tanks in PvP, with ships sitting on close to 97K hull get insta popped.
Its 100K applied, after resists.
The potential gain/issue will come from the removal of the drain and what that means for the rest of the weapons hitting as well as various boosts one might have from various Cores/Traits.
1k? That is utterly pathetic, my fleet's top sniper hits more in the 4k and above range. This has already been tested and when it comes down to it the TR-116B was taking 20 shots to kill something that was taking the MACO 4 or 5.
Now granted you may be referring to PvP, but even in PvE this rifle was terrible, and that was on normal difficulty. We also need to remember that Science and Engineering Officers need to be able to enjoy this thing as well, and at the moment that just isn't possible.
On another note, thanks for putting Craylon into missions finally, I'm really looking forward to running those queues again.
Dunno what to make of the Beam Overload Buff yet, seeing as no one in this thread can get off their high horse about PvP (which is essentially just about shattering fragments of what's left of it anyway) and actually do some PvE testing to get a balanced view of how it is working. As it is this came out in the middle of the night for me and I have no time to test it, so thanks for the one-sided testing as ever.
Are you really saying the new Beam overload is doing well over 200k raw damage! how? I run at well over 60% hull resistance at I think it was over 60k hull hitpoints. Not in game right now to check. Without the 15k shields I should still take a 100k blast without a problem. Factor in shields and 150k hits do not 1 shot kill.
I need to test more but I will crit more and do more damage per crit after the change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ruCbP9TCKM this video shows how useless the TR116-B is even with shields down. More shield pen will not make it usefull.
I still miss the old BO from way back when at the very beginning where BO caused each of your arrays to fire off an overloaded shot rather than just 1. Having a succession of slightly more powerful shots from all of your arrays rather than one nuke from a single array would even out the issue of your arrays getting the BO instead of a DBB, and could affect the alpha and impact of various mods a bit.
Are you just running a DBB for a BO every 30s, every 15s while running 2x BO, running CD reduction on the BO? No other weapons...no Clickies...no Sci Abilities that do damage?
Cause otherwise, why are you going to give up your Locators for Exploiters? Only the BO's going to be at 100% crit...you'd lose all sorts of damage by giving up the Locators depending on the build.
Current BO Formula
Base = Mk 0/TRIBBLE Damage
BaseMagnitude = Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + BO#Boost)
Damage = BaseMagnitude * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost)
New BO Formula
Base = Mk 0/TRIBBLE Damage * 0.75
BaseMagnitude = Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + BO#Boost)
Damage = BaseMagnitude * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost)
But let's take a look at switching 4x Locators for Exploiters, and just the DBB - ignoring everything else...keeping it simple with 100% to-hit but no Accuracy Overflow:
Current
Base = 130
Weapon Power = 125; 1.5 boost
BO# = BO3; 7.46 boost
BaseMagnitude = 130 * 2.5 * 8.46 = 2749.5
Strength Boosts
9 Starship Weapon Training = 0.495
9 Starship Energy Weapons = 0.495
TT1 (Full Crew) = 0.09
4x Locators = 1.276
2pc Silent = 0.076
VR = 0.075
Mk XII = 1.2
Total = 3.707
Bonus Boosts
9 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization = 0.25
2pc Ordnance = 0.075
Base CrtD = 0.5
[CrtD]x3 = 0.6
EPtW1 = 0.1
Rombush = 0.25
2pc Strikeforce = 0.025
APO3 = 0.248
APA3 = 0.496
APA3 CrtD = 0.496
TacFleet2 = 0.3
Assimilated Module = 0.092
Tachyokinetic = 0.076
Bioneural Infusion = 0.152
Total = 3.66
Damage = 2749.5 * 4.707 * 4.66 = 60309.23769
Let's switch out those Locators for Exploiters and run it through the new formula:
New
Base = 130 * 0.75 = 97.5
Weapon Power = 125; 1.5 boost
BO# = BO3; 7.46 boost
BaseMagnitude = 97.5 * 2.5 * 8.46 = 2062.125
Strength Boosts
9 Starship Weapon Training = 0.495
9 Starship Energy Weapons = 0.495
TT1 (Full Crew) = 0.09
4x Exploiters = 1.276
2pc Silent = 0.076
VR = 0.075
Mk XII = 1.2
Total = 3.707
Bonus Boosts
9 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization = 0.25
2pc Ordnance = 0.075
Base CrtD = 0.5
[CrtD]x3 = 0.6
EPtW1 = 0.1
Rombush = 0.25
2pc Strikeforce = 0.025
APO3 = 0.248
APA3 = 0.496
APA3 CrtD = 0.496
TacFleet2 = 0.3
Assimilated Module = 0.092
Tachyokinetic = 0.076
Bioneural Infusion = 0.152
4x Exploiters = 0.32
Total = 3.98
Damage = 2062.125 * 4.707 * 4.98 = 48337.9834275
So that's 60309.2 vs. 48338 damage for the BO3...
While also having given up the 6.4% CrtH for everything else that's not going to have the 100% CrtH.
It would have been 45232 instead of 48338 if you hadn't given up the Locators for the Exploiters...but yeah, it's going to drop from 60309.2 to 45232 with the change.
What's the Current without a Crit though?
Damage = 2749.5 * 4.707 * 2.744 = 35512.563996
And tada, that's where you're going to get your average gain...cause you'll be looking at your number of Crits with anywhere between ~20-30% CrtH with Crits doing 60309.2 and non-Crits doing 35512.6 damage to each of the BOs (all Crits) doing 45232 damage.
Even though it doesn't work this way, it's a chance not a guarantee...but if you had 30% CrtH and did 100 BOs...the average "would be" 42951.6...so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage. 20% "would be" 40471.9 - so that 45232 would be a gain in average damage, etc, etc, etc...
So perhaps that's why they did the No Drain as well...cause of the hit that the BO is actually taking in max damage.
Still have a feeling - it would need testing - that in the end though, folks are still probably going to come out ahead in the damage they're doing in a short period. That -50 Weapon Power is -100% damage for other Energy Weapon attacks, messes with Cores, etc. Sure, folks could counter it...Hell, folks were doing 2-3x BOs before that change. But still feel some testing needed to be done for how it would all play out in that regard...
I am already on 100% severity without focusing on severity. Dropping down to 20% crit chance to gain a large amount of severity seems worth while.
Have they stated whether there's an internal cooldown of any sort on the chance to [Over] or not?
Hrmm, I guess I could hit up Tribble and try to crank out some [Over] Arrays to see if I get any [Over] procs within a 15s period or not.
The -50 was for how it is now...not what it will be. My concern is about the lack of the drain, since it's +2% damage per point of Weapon Power; not losing that 50 weapon power means all the other weapons can gain up to 100% or more damage when using a BO after the patch.
Wishing there had been more time to compare the 25% lost on the BO to what's gained by everything else...
It is a step in the right direction however, and it might not need the extra damage now if that works, however someone will inevitably need to test it, hopefully the same guy who tested it before could do another round for it (I would but don't want to waste the EC from the exchange and certainly not paying dilithium to get the crafting done).
You do realize that people on Tribble have been one shot killing each other on Tribble and boasting about it with this change, so you're definitely still in the "one-shot" territory.
Yup. They have been testing it all day. It's fisting all none cloaking escorts badly.
You gotta remember, even if the beam misses or you survive on bare single digits of health. They then also have full power to weapons to lay in cannons.
There is no hull amount in the game players can have that will stop this. Considering UI lag and the fact you literally have 1-3 seconds to respond.
But oh yeah, they can always use Proton Barrage.
R.I.P STO PvP.
A beam boat can kill almost any single target with high-intensity pressure damage, without using FAW at all. Over-capping weapon power, attack patterns, DEM3, ..., a solid beam boat can kill anything that isnt running 125 power to shields and aux-to-damp on full rotation. FAW is certainly helpful in stacking a little more power onto a target but it is not needed. Thus your premise that FAW fills the role is mistaken, it is optional but wholly unnecessary and there are a lot of reasons not to use it.
The problem is that FAW does too much damage to all targets. It should be debuffed a bit. Maybe you could divide damage across multiple targets, and reduce weapon drain so that consistent damage across multiple targets is higher, while removing the buff to spike.
Why am I talking to a tree?
Even with permacrits, I'm never going to use BO in a beam boat, because I will be using FAW.
Doesn't matter how much DPS FAW does, because if I have a beam on my cannon boats I'm using it for spike BOs.
That said, BO needed a buff because it wasn't competitive enough with just dropping the DBB for an extra DHC. The BO buff will do nothing to change my use of FAW. They are apples and oranges.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
We dont like A2b FAW, but cant change because of the rage, so lets gave everyone an AA console
Oh that does not make a much of a difference what else can we do
OH lets buff and OP Beam overload, it is a single target skill, maybe people will stop using A2B FAW builds
Oh buffing BO had some unintended consequence, what else can we do? insert [redacted]
BWAHAHAH this is EXACTLY the first thing I thought...they couldn't figure it out so...FRAK IT - BO no longer takes power! Fixed!
Vapers could already kill in a less then a second if made properly. Why you still calling it Critical Hit chance if it is 100% now?
Nonsense.
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Can we ever get some real focus or thought on PvP balance for a change? Just for a change...
Why? Hasn't Cryptic said that they find forum posters 'whiny' and that they don't listen to feedback at all?
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To bad they were actually listening to this uninformed feedback. 20% penetration wasn't to bad, now they tweaked it to 100% penetration which makes shields completely useless... including anything thats related to that. Maco armor, the engineer class....
As stated by the dev's the TR116-b wasn't performing as intended, guess the intention then was to kill the engineer class off, cause thats what this gun will do now.. maybe ground pvp even alltogether.. cause one-shotting has never been any easier:
http://youtu.be/oXLxKe0Duvg
That "sniper" type of gun also has no red-line same as the other low level TR-116 gun, which means in a pvp game you never know anyone even shot that at you... until you suddenly fall over dead, which will no doubt now happen a lot in pvp.
So yea, great job on that gun, also cool that we had a whole day of testing on tribble before that nonsense went to holodeck. Maybe cryptic should hire some new developer for ground, one with an actual feeling for balance on ground, cause that seems to have gone completely missing since the xindi lockbox apparently.
now they just need to remove the idiotic 'look at me, i'm sniping you!' lines from every other sniper rifle in the game, too, as well as the chargeup time
sniper shots are supposed to be instant - that and the fact you don't know a sniper is around until it's too late is what makes them so feared by armies around the world
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Hawk, this is in your court now to fix. We're still knee deep in the one-shot territory and PvP has become a BO fest where the fastest to shoot and land a hit wins.