On a fleet Cruiser that is 10 consoles+8 weapons+Core/Shield/deflector/engine=22 items to fully outfit a ship or 66 days under that wait period. Unless they can be run concurrently.
Another question, do crafting assignments take assignment slots in your Doff list?
Basically the DIL cost multiplied by the expected chance of purple at high skill should still be less than the cost to buy an equivalent item outright with DIL.
A lot of crafting systems contain no randomness in their result, but are also limited in what they let you make. Looking at a certain 7,500 lb. gorilla in the industry, you can often make Blue-quality gear, for instance, but only certain slots would let you make endgame-quality gear. We'll let you make endgame-quality stuff in all slots, but not necessarily on your first go. However, as you get more and more skilled at a given school, the chance of white vanishes and the chance of green greatly diminishes, while the chance of purple goes from close-to-zero up to 33% (and maybe higher, depending on tuning changes based on feedback).
So, if I want to equip a ship like mentioned above, I have a 1 in 3 chance of not getting vendor trash, so it will take around 66 attempts to fill 22 slots. So how far under the dilithium cap are the prices going to go? 2 items per day will take 33 days to equip a ship, 3 items per day will take 22.
Do you really think anyone will be interested in that?
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
It all depends on the purpose of the crafting system and who it is aimed at. If the pinnacle of tech is fleet gear then crafting means it is only useful for a new VA/LG so blue is likely fine. The big issue no matter what the quality is purely down to costs though. Any system which is far too expensive in terms of time and resources (especially time gated resources) will be a failure as it will be quicker to get stuff through normal gameplay from fleet yards, rep stores or exchange.
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
No, what all of us want is a system where we are *guaranteed* to get a Purple item if we're pursuing it. Making crafting based on a chance *is* gambling. And gambling with a resource that we can use to get guaranteed Mk XII Purple gear. As it stands, using Dil to spend on a chance for a Purple is not worth it. If it was EC or GPL, no one would mind. But why spend Dilithium on a chance when I can guaranteed get a Purple Item with unique procs and stats from the Rep and Fleet Stores? I'd rather spend more and guarantee I get what I want than spend less and take a CHANCE on what I want.
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
Nobody cares about blue items. It kind of reminds me of Everquest II crafting, they used to have quality levels up to pristine. They eventually scrapped all the lower quality levels when they realized that nobody was interested in anything other than pristine.
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
Nobody cares about blue items. It kind of reminds me of Everquest II crafting, they used to have quality levels up to pristine. They eventually scrapped all the lower quality levels when they realized that nobody was interested in anything other than pristine.
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
No but what you folks have is simply fleece.
Lets look at the facts.
Some who has max out crafting. Once again gets screwed. But what do we expect that Cryptic normal method. You could careless about long planing players.
I remeber when dilthium was add we told it be a time currency. YET unless you do certain things you do not earn any.
YET EVERYTHING thing the game needs a ton of dilithium.
Want to improve crafting?
There should NOT EVER BE A WHITE, GREEN OR BLUE REWARD FOR MAX Crafter on craft that requires Dilthium
WHY SHOULD I WASTE MY TIME LEVEL CRAFTING. IT BE WASTE. YOU JUST WIPE EVERYTHING AGAIN NEXT TIME YOU UP DATE IF THIS GAME EVEN STILL AROUND.
It no wonder I log into STO less and less every day.
EVERYTHING is GRIND. DILTHIUM is hard to get unless you do cerain stuff. IT NOT TIME CURRENCY like we told when you folks TRIBBLE us out of marks and add to simply currency then add more currency ak new different marks later.
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
personally, i think the whole current concept of crafting gear is flawed. There are too many other ways to get good gear in the game now. Reps, fleet star bases and even some drops...
Crafting should not be competing with those systems, it should be complementing them. You should be able to craft unique consumables or devices (far too few in the game now.) or other buff items.
or make ALL gear use the socket system that kits got and have crafting be the main source of the "gems" that you socket. That way to level up your rep, buy some cool rep gear and then do some crafting to make them better. That way crafting does not replace the Rep gear grind, it enhances it.
"Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
Nobody wants blue items. People want gear that is competitive with what they can get through other means- I have access to everything the fleet system can sell; that gear is expensive, but has no RNG involved. On the flipside, it also has limited variety in the form of available modifiers to choose from.
edit: or to follow what the previous poster said, if the gear isn't competitive, it at least must be unique and not available through any other means.
We can tolerate a system that is expensive, but an expensive system must very reliably produce premium results. A cheap system *might* be tolerant of lower reliability; but even a modest cost will be too high without premium gear (see existing crafting system).
Green was cheapest, purple the most expensive in materials. Why can't we have that now?
Dedicated "crafting system" players in MMOs want to make stuff, and they want to make a LOT of stuff. They want there to eternally be a reason for them to make another thing, for them to sell or to trade or to give away to their friends. We want to reward these players for playing the system, and give them continual reasons to "make more stuff".
Typical MMO crafting systems force you to create things sequentially - you must make 5 wood swords before you can move on to bronze nuggets, and then on to bronze hilts, and then bronze blades, etc, etc. We wanted to cut all of that out and let people make top-mark gear from the get-go. Part of the reasoning for that was so that you don't feel like you're wasting time making cruft you don't want. Part of the reasoning for that was because Mark of item matters far more in STO than rarity of item. So, given that we wanted to reward time investment in the system but we wanted to allow low-level crafters to make high-level gear, the most logical and viable axis of scaling was quality of item.
Also, on the topic of "old crafting", let's be clear - a store interface with a "number of times you've interacted with this store" counter in very few ways constitutes an actual crafting system. It was the best we could do at the time, but now we can do much better, and make something far more accessible and expandable/future-proof.
We're working on getting additional "endgame only" schematics into the crafting schools. Each school will have at least one unique item (with preset mods, no randomness) that can only be created via R+D. For example, the Cannons school will be able to make DHCs with [Acc][Dmg][Arc]. These recipes will create Very Rare items on success, and Ultra Rare items on crit. This will help alleviate some of the incidences of players looking at costs vs. outcomes and not finding the outcomes worthwhile, but there is also more coming.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I have access to everything the fleet system can sell; that gear is expensive, but has no RNG involved.
To be perfectly honest, if you're fully decked out in Fleet gear, the most appealing part of the crafting system to you for awhile is just going to be trait and title unlocks. The system is aimed more at players who like to do crafting and players who like to be able to spend time/effort/energy at solo progression, than it is at members of large fleets. But you can level all the way to 20 without spending any Dilithium, if you like crafting or want to participate in the system.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
I would prefer no system and just chalk it up to something this game does not have. Any dilithium cost in this system does not make it broadly appealing. With the amount of work you have to put in on the front end to start getting and making good gear, adding the dilithium grind to it just shoots it pretty much dead out of the gate. Look at how gated the system is already...
Obtain good quality purple DOFFs - probably a dilithium grind at the Academy or lots of credits, zen, etc... Long grind to get to that.
Obtain many crafting resource items - all gated by time and now no real good way to effectively farm so it will be people popping in and out of mission just to harvest nodes.
Craft subcomponents - again all dependent from the grind for resources and your luck at getting rarer mats. Also with a dilithium surcharge on sub components.
Construction times on items - these are too long, I am just at the MK VI for beams and one hour is silly. So there is gate.
XP curve for leveling is not balanced with XP for items made - currently with the time gate and low amount of XP this system is now double gated just in the crafting phase.
Randomness in item - now you go through all of that and you may have to rinse and repeat very slowly to get where you want to. Progression will feel too slow and gated so most player will drop out.
You guys went too wild building in gates, micro-transaction hooks, and grinds to the point this system will not be fun at all. I am not trying to be mean, but if something does not give in it, then it will be all for nothing, too few people will use it and then you will not be able to justify additions to it. You want solutions here are some:
Non-combat farming - Put back in the particle scan missions for each star cluster and let us take them from a contact interact when we get to the particular nebula. Put each one on a 15 min cool down (each cluster seperately). This allows players to still complete their Star Cluster accolades and gives people a way to actively obtain resources in a non-combat fashion.
Drastically reduce the dilithium costs of the DOFF grinders - Why double dip now and have dilithium penalties in two places in the system especially if you are not going to up the refining limit per day.
Remove the dilithium costs for crafted items as a whole - this is exactly what killed the crafting/exchange system in the first place and why would it be any different now that a random element has been added. This makes it worse and makes it more of a gambling system rather than a crafting system.
Typical MMO crafting systems force you to create things sequentially -
As we see it now though the current system forces us to do the exact same thing but we get a choice in what junk to make first. We will still need to level the craft up to 20 so have to craft 100 or so shields so we can start making the good stuff at level 20 as you said at the end of the post.
I'm not agreeing with the tone of this post, but there are some good points to it.
For people who invest the time to max a school, and then invest dilithium, it doesn't seem fair to not be guaranteed a very rare reward.
I'm okay with not being guaranteed purple as I'm ranking up in the system, I wouldn't expect to be, but after making the investments I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an appropriate reward.
We're working on getting additional "endgame only" schematics into the crafting schools. Each school will have at least one unique item (with preset mods, no randomness) that can only be created via R+D. For example, the Cannons school will be able to make DHCs with [Acc][Dmg][Arc]. These recipes will create Very Rare items on success, and Ultra Rare items on crit. This will help alleviate some of the incidences of players looking at costs vs. outcomes and not finding the outcomes worthwhile, but there is also more coming.
Can I just say? WHY CANT THIS BE THE BASIC SYSTEM? I would like to be able to chose the quality and then have a Crit Chance for a grade higher. Geko was talking about an upgrade system for down the line anyways on P1. Why not give us the choice of Common->Very Rare with Fleet Grade as a high crit bonus reward. That's gonna not hurt as much and a Purple is just as competitive.
Another thing, Crafting is a core in-game system. Why are we gambling on it like a lockbox?
You're... not? You know exactly what you're making - Mk XII Antiproton Beam Array - you just might have to make it a couple times to get a purple quality one. I can understand posts that point out that the cost of items is too high given the uncertainty of what they'll produce, but I think it's hyperbole to equate the system to gambling. You'll make all of what you want much more quickly with R+D than you would, say, farming in Kerrat or ISE.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
....
We're working on getting additional "endgame only" schematics into the crafting schools. Each school will have at least one unique item (with preset mods, no randomness) that can only be created via R+D. For example, the Cannons school will be able to make DHCs with [Acc][Dmg][Arc]. These recipes will create Very Rare items on success, and Ultra Rare items on crit. This will help alleviate some of the incidences of players looking at costs vs. outcomes and not finding the outcomes worthwhile, but there is also more coming.
I can see me getting TOTALLY behind a system like this. I support this implementation across the board.
Typical MMO crafting systems force you to create things sequentially - you must make 5 wood swords before you can move on to bronze nuggets, and then on to bronze hilts, and then bronze blades, etc, etc. We wanted to cut all of that out and let people make top-mark gear from the get-go. Part of the reasoning for that was so that you don't feel like you're wasting time making cruft you don't want. Part of the reasoning for that was because Mark of item matters far more in STO than rarity of item. So, given that we wanted to reward time investment in the system but we wanted to allow low-level crafters to make high-level gear, the most logical and viable axis of scaling was quality of item.
But how is that really any different? in order to level up my crafting, I'm still going end up making truckloads of common and uncommon vendor trash before I get high enough to even start seeing purple.
"Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie" - The Doctor
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -Agatha Heterodyne
No, it doesn't. You can make some Ultraviolet items with R+D - that doesn't mean you can make the actual items that are in the Fleet store. Ultraviolet items are just one quality higher than Purple - so for weapons, they have +1 mod, while for consoles, they work as though they're 5 item-levels higher.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
But how is that really any different? in order to level up my crafting, I'm still going end up making truckloads of common and uncommon vendor trash before I get high enough to even start seeing purple.
If you just want to make blues and purples, you can make low mark items. If you just want to make Mark XII items, you can make greens and whites. Since making Mark XII gets you ~93% of the way to peak performance, it's immensely different from a system where you make a level 5 sword at level 80 just because you didn't start crafting til endgame.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
You're... not? You know exactly what you're making - Mk XII Antiproton Beam Array - you just might have to make it a couple times to get a purple quality one. I can understand posts that point out that the cost of items is too high given the uncertainty of what they'll produce, but I think it's hyperbole to equate the system to gambling. You'll make all of what you want much more quickly with R+D than you would, say, farming in Kerrat or ISE.
You pay dilithium for a purple but may not even get the purple. That's gambling. No different than me paying for a chance to get a lockbox ship but not getting it.
Hypostetically, I wouldn't want a system that charged me for purple if I was only awarded a blue.
That is totally fair, and like we've said many many times, the numbers will reflect that and be cheaper than the weighted proportional chance for you to get a purple item. E.g., even if you have bad luck and take more than the average number of crafts to make a Mk XII, it will still be cheaper to craft it than to buy it in the store.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
You're... not? You know exactly what you're making - Mk XII Antiproton Beam Array - you just might have to make it a couple times to get a purple quality one. I can understand posts that point out that the cost of items is too high given the uncertainty of what they'll produce, but I think it's hyperbole to equate the system to gambling. You'll make all of what you want much more quickly with R+D than you would, say, farming in Kerrat or ISE.
Only if you take the exchange and getting your preferred modifiers out of the equation.
That is totally fair, and like we've said many many times, the numbers will reflect that and be cheaper than the weighted proportional chance for you to get a purple item. E.g., even if you have bad luck and take more than the average number of crafts to make a Mk XII, it will still be cheaper to craft it than to buy it in the store.
The costs to make an MK XII is going to have to be really low if it is to be cheaper than a rep store even in the worst case of bad luck.
Comments
Do you really think anyone will be interested in that?
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
Hypothetically, would you prefer a system where you could only make Blue items?
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
The old system had it right.
You could make green, blue and purple.
Green was cheapest, purple the most expensive in materials. Why can't we have that now?
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
No, what all of us want is a system where we are *guaranteed* to get a Purple item if we're pursuing it. Making crafting based on a chance *is* gambling. And gambling with a resource that we can use to get guaranteed Mk XII Purple gear. As it stands, using Dil to spend on a chance for a Purple is not worth it. If it was EC or GPL, no one would mind. But why spend Dilithium on a chance when I can guaranteed get a Purple Item with unique procs and stats from the Rep and Fleet Stores? I'd rather spend more and guarantee I get what I want than spend less and take a CHANCE on what I want.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Nobody cares about blue items. It kind of reminds me of Everquest II crafting, they used to have quality levels up to pristine. They eventually scrapped all the lower quality levels when they realized that nobody was interested in anything other than pristine.
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
This. People go for the finest gear you can get.
No but what you folks have is simply fleece.
Lets look at the facts.
Some who has max out crafting. Once again gets screwed. But what do we expect that Cryptic normal method. You could careless about long planing players.
I remeber when dilthium was add we told it be a time currency. YET unless you do certain things you do not earn any.
YET EVERYTHING thing the game needs a ton of dilithium.
Want to improve crafting?
There should NOT EVER BE A WHITE, GREEN OR BLUE REWARD FOR MAX Crafter on craft that requires Dilthium
WHY SHOULD I WASTE MY TIME LEVEL CRAFTING. IT BE WASTE. YOU JUST WIPE EVERYTHING AGAIN NEXT TIME YOU UP DATE IF THIS GAME EVEN STILL AROUND.
It no wonder I log into STO less and less every day.
EVERYTHING is GRIND. DILTHIUM is hard to get unless you do cerain stuff. IT NOT TIME CURRENCY like we told when you folks TRIBBLE us out of marks and add to simply currency then add more currency ak new different marks later.
Hypostetically, I wouldn't want a system that charged me for purple if I was only awarded a blue.
personally, i think the whole current concept of crafting gear is flawed. There are too many other ways to get good gear in the game now. Reps, fleet star bases and even some drops...
Crafting should not be competing with those systems, it should be complementing them. You should be able to craft unique consumables or devices (far too few in the game now.) or other buff items.
or make ALL gear use the socket system that kits got and have crafting be the main source of the "gems" that you socket. That way to level up your rep, buy some cool rep gear and then do some crafting to make them better. That way crafting does not replace the Rep gear grind, it enhances it.
Nobody wants blue items. People want gear that is competitive with what they can get through other means- I have access to everything the fleet system can sell; that gear is expensive, but has no RNG involved. On the flipside, it also has limited variety in the form of available modifiers to choose from.
edit: or to follow what the previous poster said, if the gear isn't competitive, it at least must be unique and not available through any other means.
We can tolerate a system that is expensive, but an expensive system must very reliably produce premium results. A cheap system *might* be tolerant of lower reliability; but even a modest cost will be too high without premium gear (see existing crafting system).
Dedicated "crafting system" players in MMOs want to make stuff, and they want to make a LOT of stuff. They want there to eternally be a reason for them to make another thing, for them to sell or to trade or to give away to their friends. We want to reward these players for playing the system, and give them continual reasons to "make more stuff".
Typical MMO crafting systems force you to create things sequentially - you must make 5 wood swords before you can move on to bronze nuggets, and then on to bronze hilts, and then bronze blades, etc, etc. We wanted to cut all of that out and let people make top-mark gear from the get-go. Part of the reasoning for that was so that you don't feel like you're wasting time making cruft you don't want. Part of the reasoning for that was because Mark of item matters far more in STO than rarity of item. So, given that we wanted to reward time investment in the system but we wanted to allow low-level crafters to make high-level gear, the most logical and viable axis of scaling was quality of item.
Also, on the topic of "old crafting", let's be clear - a store interface with a "number of times you've interacted with this store" counter in very few ways constitutes an actual crafting system. It was the best we could do at the time, but now we can do much better, and make something far more accessible and expandable/future-proof.
We're working on getting additional "endgame only" schematics into the crafting schools. Each school will have at least one unique item (with preset mods, no randomness) that can only be created via R+D. For example, the Cannons school will be able to make DHCs with [Acc][Dmg][Arc]. These recipes will create Very Rare items on success, and Ultra Rare items on crit. This will help alleviate some of the incidences of players looking at costs vs. outcomes and not finding the outcomes worthwhile, but there is also more coming.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
To be perfectly honest, if you're fully decked out in Fleet gear, the most appealing part of the crafting system to you for awhile is just going to be trait and title unlocks. The system is aimed more at players who like to do crafting and players who like to be able to spend time/effort/energy at solo progression, than it is at members of large fleets. But you can level all the way to 20 without spending any Dilithium, if you like crafting or want to participate in the system.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I would prefer no system and just chalk it up to something this game does not have. Any dilithium cost in this system does not make it broadly appealing. With the amount of work you have to put in on the front end to start getting and making good gear, adding the dilithium grind to it just shoots it pretty much dead out of the gate. Look at how gated the system is already...
You guys went too wild building in gates, micro-transaction hooks, and grinds to the point this system will not be fun at all. I am not trying to be mean, but if something does not give in it, then it will be all for nothing, too few people will use it and then you will not be able to justify additions to it. You want solutions here are some:
As we see it now though the current system forces us to do the exact same thing but we get a choice in what junk to make first. We will still need to level the craft up to 20 so have to craft 100 or so shields so we can start making the good stuff at level 20 as you said at the end of the post.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
For people who invest the time to max a school, and then invest dilithium, it doesn't seem fair to not be guaranteed a very rare reward.
I'm okay with not being guaranteed purple as I'm ranking up in the system, I wouldn't expect to be, but after making the investments I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an appropriate reward.
Can I just say? WHY CANT THIS BE THE BASIC SYSTEM? I would like to be able to chose the quality and then have a Crit Chance for a grade higher. Geko was talking about an upgrade system for down the line anyways on P1. Why not give us the choice of Common->Very Rare with Fleet Grade as a high crit bonus reward. That's gonna not hurt as much and a Purple is just as competitive.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
You're... not? You know exactly what you're making - Mk XII Antiproton Beam Array - you just might have to make it a couple times to get a purple quality one. I can understand posts that point out that the cost of items is too high given the uncertainty of what they'll produce, but I think it's hyperbole to equate the system to gambling. You'll make all of what you want much more quickly with R+D than you would, say, farming in Kerrat or ISE.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I can see me getting TOTALLY behind a system like this. I support this implementation across the board.
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" - Agatha Heterodyne
No, it doesn't. You can make some Ultraviolet items with R+D - that doesn't mean you can make the actual items that are in the Fleet store. Ultraviolet items are just one quality higher than Purple - so for weapons, they have +1 mod, while for consoles, they work as though they're 5 item-levels higher.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
If you just want to make blues and purples, you can make low mark items. If you just want to make Mark XII items, you can make greens and whites. Since making Mark XII gets you ~93% of the way to peak performance, it's immensely different from a system where you make a level 5 sword at level 80 just because you didn't start crafting til endgame.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
You pay dilithium for a purple but may not even get the purple. That's gambling. No different than me paying for a chance to get a lockbox ship but not getting it.
That is totally fair, and like we've said many many times, the numbers will reflect that and be cheaper than the weighted proportional chance for you to get a purple item. E.g., even if you have bad luck and take more than the average number of crafts to make a Mk XII, it will still be cheaper to craft it than to buy it in the store.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Only if you take the exchange and getting your preferred modifiers out of the equation.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/CaptainCidStorm
The costs to make an MK XII is going to have to be really low if it is to be cheaper than a rep store even in the worst case of bad luck.