test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Time for a new breed of Fed escorts
asovanra
Member Posts: 139 Arc User
For all the time I've spent playing Fed toons and getting all sorts of fancy ships and trying every build I just (yes, I literally within the past few days) have started playing the Klingon faction.
1. The defiant needs a battle cloak, its been said several thousand times; but to compete with raiders it really does need a battle cloak
2. So lots of us have complained about the boff layout of certain ships, and I just realized that Klingon raiders have all universal boff stations. So lets get some Fed ships with all universal boff stations; it's only fair and I feel that it would bring a whole new element of game play to STO.
3. Klingons need more ships, specifically they need more ships with 4 and 5 tactical consoles. It's pretty pathetic that most raiders only have 3 tactical consoles.
Thanks to all who will read this post; don't complain (OMG Fed ships with universal BOFFs would be so over powered!!!) I do not like those who think every change spells doom in this game. To the rest of you readers, happy hunting. :-)
Note to moderator(s): DO NOT repost my thread in the Klingon shipyard, leave it hear, because my main point has to do with Fed ships.
1. The defiant needs a battle cloak, its been said several thousand times; but to compete with raiders it really does need a battle cloak
2. So lots of us have complained about the boff layout of certain ships, and I just realized that Klingon raiders have all universal boff stations. So lets get some Fed ships with all universal boff stations; it's only fair and I feel that it would bring a whole new element of game play to STO.
3. Klingons need more ships, specifically they need more ships with 4 and 5 tactical consoles. It's pretty pathetic that most raiders only have 3 tactical consoles.
Thanks to all who will read this post; don't complain (OMG Fed ships with universal BOFFs would be so over powered!!!) I do not like those who think every change spells doom in this game. To the rest of you readers, happy hunting. :-)
Note to moderator(s): DO NOT repost my thread in the Klingon shipyard, leave it hear, because my main point has to do with Fed ships.
Post edited by asovanra on
0
Comments
But mostly a commander engineer escort...we haven't got one of those yet
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
If you want the Defiant to be a "Raider," OP (which I'm completely against), then the Defiant's stats need to be reduced to a "Raider." NONE of the Birds of Prey have 5 TAC Consoles.
And frankly, I think the vast majority of the playerbase (regardless of faction) cannot handle the sacrifices that have to be made to play as a "Raider."
There is a reason they're called "Raider": These ships are flimsy as hell and one mistake, you are DEAD. Klingon Birds of Prey make up the bulk, but you must include the Breen Raider. They're flexible. They can hit pretty hard. They get the flanking bonus. But their hulls are fragile as hell with no room for any error. They cannot take punishment at all whatsoever. They have enough for one good strike then must run.
The Defiant doesn't suffer from that because it has the endurance to stay and dogfight.
I say this because even among the KDF, endgame BOPs are very uncommon. Out of the sheer number of ships orbiting Qo'nos, maybe 1 of those will be an endgame BOP, even if you discount low tiered ships.
I say this because of the "abundance" of Breen Raiders you see flying around. Meaning, *NONE*. You saw a lot of Breen Raiders when they first came out from the winter event, and it was the goal of many players to get one.
"WOOHOO! Fast! Look at those Universals! Look at those Console slots!"
After time, players realized how fragile it is. How quickly you die.
"I don't like dying that quick."
Then we got what we see now... nonexistent Breen Raiders. Count yourself extremely lucky if you see more than one player Breen Raider for a month's worth of heavy playtime.
Most of the players of STO cannot handle life as a "Raider" or "Bird of Prey" styled captain. And I say that with the utmost confidence.
"The Grass Isn't Always Greener On The Other Side Of The Fence"
Another Edit to add: A link to this thread, and on Page 3 I bring my issues regarding the Birds of Prey and the "Raider" thing in general. Frankly, the Birds of Prey and the Raider gameplay are obsolete. The only reason to fly a "Raider" is to fly the B'Rel. That is the ONLY saving grace... to fly such a cool looking ship. But if you want to fly fast moving, heavy damage dealing ships that can, and will be able to stay in a fight, Escorts are completely superior in every way shape and form.
The Defiant has some issues. But turning it into a Raider will not fix it. I promise you that.
To compare to the movie Aladdin from Disney...spoilers:
At the end of the movie, Jafar wishes to be a genie. He gains that power, but everything that goes with it, namely that he himself is also trapped in a lamp, etc.
Are you willing to give up hull, shields, and possible console slots for everything a BoP has? Because you probably would have to. Cryptic isn't just going to hand over a full raider with all the dressings for no 'cost' somehow.
To bring up the Plesh Brek like Warmaker did, here's some stat comparisons for the ships:
30,00hull, the two ships have the same hull. The fleet Defiant obviously has more hull, but the normal tier-5 Defiant is equal to the Plesh.
.88 vs .90 shields. The Plesh has the same level of shield as the fleet BoPs, though the Defiant, and it's fleet version both have .90 shields, just a little higher.
Fleet Defiant and Plesh both have 5 tac consoles, 3 eng, and 2 sci.
I believe the Plesh is faster and turns better.
The Defiant has the option to cloak, the Plesh has it's AoE Jam Sensors thing.
The Defiant is locked into it's BOFF layout, the Plesh has a Cmdr Tac and all other slots are universal.
So, aside from being faster, turning better, and having more universal slots, how are you really losing that much from a Defiant just compared to the Plesh Brek? Yet I barely see them as well. The most commonly seen Plesh I notice is one that a fleetmate flies, and even then, not all the time.
Something else to ask: What would you do with a full universal layout? With just the Cmdr Universal alone you set the stage for your entire build. A Cmdr tac? You are already going for a DPS heavy layout, which means that will be a primary focus for you, just like all Raptors and Escorts in the game. Eng cmdr? Then you are already thinking about being more resilient overall. Sci cmdr? Debuffs, holds, drains, etc is what you might end up wanting.
Remember, no heavy-universal ship gets the full 5 BOFFs as universal. The Plesh Brek doesn't, it's Cmdr is locked as tac. No tier 5 BoP gets full BOFF seating, heck, even the Fleet Norgh still only has 4 BOFF slots in the end.
To finish: Why do you talk about the KDF so much, yet leave out the Romulans?
I'm sorry to people who I, in the past, insulted, annoyed, etc.
Yeah they do tend to come out of the woodwork at the drop of a hat (predictable that way). Makes it probably a trolling post, in which case d'oh!
go roll a kdf already.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I disagree. No cloak for Starfleet or through the "affiliated-races loophole". Romulans already cover that.
I disagree. Raiders are a unique ship class and pay dearly for their universal layout. Unless you take everything that comes with having a "raider" (which starfleet doesn't, by the way) there will not be all-universal ships fedside. Mimey and Warmaker already spelled that out in great detail.
This, however, I agree with. Klingons need more ships, not only tacscorts but I also long for a new Negh'Var variant or something comparable
Change doesn't necessarily spell doom, yet complete uniformity and leveled gameplay does. If you want a raider, play a Klingon (you don't even need to because they already opened up the possibility to play one cross-faction). You are not forced to play one side in the game, you can choose freely, at any given time.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Way back when, two cloak tiers were used to force different ships into different roles. And that sorta worked, until a third, better tier was added- the Romulan battlecloak, built into ships that couldn't be more different than the original Klingon raiders.
It's time to return to two tiers by chopping off the bottom one. There's no "lore" reason why a battlecruiser would have a different cloak than a bird of prey, anyway.
i can get behind that.
romulans had their year of OPness. surely cryptic bled them of the majority of their OP value already. its time for kdf/feddies to get a balance pass, and this is probably the best place to start.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It would make more sense if regular cloak was useable in combat however caused shields to drop slightly before the cloak engaged, battle cloak being designed to be used in combat would have the cloak come up before shields dropped.
Rather than universal slot's I would much rather see them just add a module thing or some system where you can fully customize the bridge officer layout, the current system seems overly restrictive essentially forcing you to pick based on what slot's the ship has available rather than if you actually like how it looks / would like to fly it.
Opening up the officer layouts could possibly expand the variation of vessel's you see flying around which would be great. STF shield gfx really need to be a unlock as well to add even more variety.
So you are insisting that no one *complain* (meaning disagree) and you are telling moderators what to do. Is this your first time at the rodeo?
I always thought that whatever the commander BOFF seat is on a ship(excluding universals) is a big factor in what type the ship is. Escorts, Raiders, Raptors, Destroyers, etc have either Commander Tactical or Universal BOFF seatings, Cruisers of all varieties have either Commander Engineering or Universals, and science ships(Science Vessels, Support Vessels, science-heavy Warbirds, etc) have either a Science or Universal Commander BOFF position. And so far, the game is supporting my hypothesis.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
1/2. No, does not need it. Like others have said, you want raider status for the Defiant, prepare to lose A LOT of the defiant's strengths in return. Trust me, it's not worth it.
3. That's been a given. Frankly KDF needs lower level flight deck cruisers that do not cost money that are science bent. Also some raptors that have a 5/2 setup and a 5 tac console raptor.
But honestly, Feds do NOT NEED RAIDERS. It goes against their doctrine and well name one time feds came in, raided pillaged and burned?
Oh wait that's right. THEY DO NOT DO THAT.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Fleet Defiant vs. Plesh Brek
+3300 Hull
+2% Shield Mod
+1 Aft Weapon
Fixed BOFF layout vs. Cmdr Tac/Uni Rest
+1 Eng Console
-1 Sci Console
-2 Turn
-0.01 Impulse Mod
-5 Inertia
No Flanking
Can use Cloak Console for Standard Cloak
Fleet Defiant vs. Fleet B'rel
(Why the B'rel? Only ZEN Raider - thus only discounted Fleet Raider to match a potentially discounted Fleet Defiant.)
+5775 Hull
+2% Shield Mod
+1 Aft Weapon
Fixed BOFF layout vs. 4x Uni layout (12 BOFF abilities for Defiant / 11 for B'rel)
+2 Tac Consoles
-1 Eng Console
-1 Sci Console
-6 Turn
Same Impulse Mod
-10 Inertia
No Flanking
No Improved Ambush
Cloak Console for Standard Cloak vs. Built-In Enhanced Battle Cloak
Something that is oft glossed over in base stat comparisons is how some of those base stats work out as one starts applying bonuses.
Say somebody's got 9 in Structural Integrity, providing that +30% base hull. That +5775 Hull becomes +7507.5 Hull.
Something that is oft glossed over in comparing stats even after looking at the above is how effective health plays into things.
Say somebody's got 33% damage resistance. That +7507.5 Hull becomes +11205 Hull.
Something that is oft glossed over in comparing stats even after looking at the above is what that means for the ability to drop out heals.
That extra 11.2k Hull provides additional buffer for one to be ability to drop out heals more efficiently, rather than perhaps wasting some of that healing as it's lost to overhealing and then not really having the heal as you need it.
Not saying you're glossing over anything or overlooking anything, mimey - just saying it tends to be something many folks gloss over or take for granted or in some cases simply do not know. Heh, I tend to try not to look at it cause I'm not a fan of all the percentage based boosts in the game (would rather have flat boosts) and I tend to go off on side tirades about percentage based boosts, ratios, and how they're one of the underlying roots of the many problems in STO. DAYUM, I started to go off there...let me grab a smoke and some caffeine - try to get back on track here...lol.
Meh, I can't remember - got off on that tirade too much too fast, lol. Maybe it was going to be folks look at KDF thinking they're Roms?
Fleet T'varo vs. Fleet B'rel
+2475 Hull
+11% Shield Mod
+1 Aft Weapon
Psedo Fixed BOFF layout w/ Uni LCdr vs. 4x Uni layout (12 BOFF abilities for T'varo / 11 for B'rel)
+1 Tac Console
-1 Eng Console
-5 Turn
-0.1 Impulse Mod
-10 Inertia
-5 Weapon Power
+5 Engine Power
Base40 instead of Base50 Subsystem Power (skills reduce the loss)
No Flanking
No Improved Ambush
REBC vs. EBC; +55 Stealth Value (though there's up to a -400 Stealth Value debuff from Singularity Charge)
Singularity Abilities
Access to the better Romulan/Reman BOFFs
Kind of like how you can look at the various Warbirds, see that they're improved versions of KDF Raptors and Battle Cruisers...but some folks still see that KDF Boogeyman there, so they don't see that.
And yeah, that's entirely too much babbling and rambling from me...I need more caffeine.
I could get behind the cloak upgrade... Not because the defiante does even remotely need that in any way to compete, more because I think the split battle cloak/cloak is just stupid (immersion killer) and in balance terms dated since the release of lor.
For everything else... No. Just no. The raider class is something Klingon exclusive, we already have next to nothing going for them left already...
Hex code 1b1c1f.
You're welcome.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Enhanced "Battle" Cloak
"Battle" Cloak
Mask Energy Signature
That sort of thing, right? Where the "Battle" part could have been removed, right? Where the "standard" cloak should have never existed outside of something along the lines of MES, right?
Kind of.
I just see no reason why a ship having a cloaking device should be unable to use it in combat (or worst... outside of combat just because the red alert is still on). And this simply isn't how it worked in the shows either.
Before LOR the argument could be made that this was "necessary for balance reasons", thats over now.
Especially small ships are "punished" enough, being hit by a single good torpedo without shields while cloaking manages to kill most raiders....
So, my personal opinion is that all cloaks should work like battle cloaks. And if we need a "battle cloak" then it should give some enhanced bonuses. Like may be a defense buff or resistance buff when cloaking to make it easier for some ships to survive that progress (Raiders really could need that), may be a shorter cool down, something like that.
But that isn't a supposed fed perk, the KDF is the one benefiting from that. Onscreen they did cloak as much as the romulans, I just don't see why they are put at a that massive disadvantage compared to the romulans in terms of cloak.
But feds allready have ship with all universal slots, its this one
Oh , and defiant w/ BC, AGAIN??
If u want BC on fed side, make romnie and choose fed faction, cant be more simpler thatn that!
The only thing I agree with you on, is that KDF need more ships!
Captain: Engage the cloak!
Lieutenant: But sir, they're still shooting at us.
Ensign#1: Our shields will drop.
Ensign#2: We'll be vulnerable.
Lieutenant Commander: Cloaking now will get everybody killed!
Captain: I'm the captain, engage the cloak!
Later on the Forums: I hate this game...I keep dying through no fault of my own.
That's the way it was then the roms came out remember? lol
Player1: "I keep dieing, battlecloak sucks"
Player2: "are you cloaking while being attacked?"
Player1: "yes, so battlecloak sucks"
Don't think so. After all, the most "fragile" ship was the first one with the BC.
Also... "Dear ensign, the enemy has been destroyed, please cloak the f*** ship"
"But captain the red alert is still on"
or
"Dear ensign, the enemy is targeting another ship, please cloak"
"But Captain he could decide to target us any time"
"Dear ensign, please cloak the ship, if not we will certainly be destroyed"
"But captain, we might take damage if we cloak now"...
Player isn't protected to any degree.
And again, all rom ships have that full battle cloak now, its nothing rare any more.
Anyone who cannot handle criticism should not risk stating an opinion.
I'm fairly certain the mechanical implications of the proposed changes have been beaten to death so I'm going to throw my two cents in a completely different direction.
The USS Defiant was a Bird of Prey done Federation style. If the Tactical Escort Retrofit was made more raider-like, I would have no problems with that change.
Especially since that would add the Federation players to the ranks of those pushing for raider fixes.
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
You'd think it would be the reverse. (which would also distinguish them a bit, "regular" cloak being for opening alpha-strike salvoes while BC's would favour more hit&run style)
Not really. You might be willing to give up stuff to make the Defiant into a raider, but is most of the playerbase? Do you really think that they will be ok with losing stats and such out of the blue, changing the ship so drastically?
And to anyone, how many Plesh Breks do you see? Even if anyone reading this flies one, how many do you see besides your own? I see very, VERY few of them.
As for 'raider fixes', not really. The problem isn't that you cannot make a raider useful, it is that you cannot make it needed or necessary. Right now most of the game's content is VERY anti-raider friendly. There's a lot of stuff that NPCs can do that have a lot of de-cloaking effects (like tractor beams, GW, etc), or do VERY high damage, especially through kinetic damage, that will swat a raider out of the sky. They are fragile. Though to some degree, this problem is for all ships, with stupid stuff like Borg one-shot torps.