They didn't capture D-7's from the Klingons. The Romulans got D-7's as part of an agreement with the Klingons, in exchange for Cloaking technology.
The exchange between the two Empires was of huge importance to both, but the Romulans really needed it more.
There is no evidence of this at all.
This is the closest to an answer for it from canon.
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design'.
Nowhere does that suggest that the Romulans traded THE single most effective weapon in all three powers (the cloak) for a couple of battlecruisers.
The only confirmed / canon Klingon-Romulan alliances are the one from Khitomer (where Worf's father was killed) which is post UC, and the one in the episodes of Reunion.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Im curious, where does the assumption come from that the Valdore-class (Mogai in STO) is supposed to be a "heavy" or more heavily armed ship than the D'd? It is significantly smaller and was never portrayed as having superior firepower. Instead, it's a smaller and probably more "nimble" design to rival the Galaxy-Sovereign development since the D'd warbirds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they were supposed to operate in line formation rather than ambushing and completely annihilating the target.
I know it exists because they wanted something fancier to show off in the movie and that backfired because they blew the budget early, but let's not go there since so many things can be explained with stupid RL reasons
I'm going by soft canon from Memory Beta, that said the Mogai was 'most likely' developed in response to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
You are correct though that it is just speculation and conjecture -- and my little arms race outline was really from my perspective of things, not necessarily true canon.
I'm going by soft canon from Memory Beta, that said the Mogai was 'most likely' developed in response to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
You are correct though that it is just speculation and conjecture -- and my little arms race outline was really from my perspective of things, not necessarily true canon.
I see. Well, I would concur on the Sovereign. The D'ds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they didn't struck from a cloaked ambush, which however is pretty much the only way Romulans engaged in battles for at least two centuries. Romulans aren't bent on conquest and territorial control, which resembled their ships' design. With ships like the Sovereign which sacrificed some bulk and possibly raw firepower for more manoeuvreability I suspect the Valdore to do the same after the more traditional engagements of the Dominon war. The Negh'Var however was a reaction on the capital ships of the other powers and a late response of the Empire itself, in my opinion. This is also just specualtion on my end, but it just makes sense to me comparing the fleets of their time
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I see. Well, I would concur on the Sovereign. The D'ds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they didn't struck from a cloaked ambush, which however is pretty much the only way Romulans engaged in battles for at least two centuries. Romulans aren't bent on conquest and territorial control, which resembled their ships' design. With ships like the Sovereign which sacrificed some bulk and possibly raw firepower for more manoeuvreability I suspect the Valdore to do the same after the more traditional engagements of the Dominon war. The Negh'Var however was a reaction on the capital ships of the other powers and a late response of the Empire itself, in my opinion. This is also just specualtion on my end, but it just makes sense to me comparing the fleets of their time
I saw the D'Deridex as more of an 'intimidating' design rather than conquest and territorial control. The Enterprise made a fool out of their flagship in TOS -- and in retrospect without needing the Dhelan design, the Romulans wanted a capital ship design that could strike fear into the Federation and KDF, and stand toe-to-toe with the Galaxy/Vor'cha.
Since it seemed the Romulans were 'done' playing second-string to their neighbors, and wanted to make it obvious this wasn't the same RSE from TOS.
I think that's also why they became so obsessed with more advanced and powerful ship designs like stealing the Prometheus' MVAM technology for incorporation on the Ha'apax, or the building of the Scimitar prototype.
The Mogai might seem smaller in profile to the D'Deridex but the wingspan is much wider. In comparison, the Sovereign is actually smaller in profile to the Galaxy, but is longer. To me it seemed to be the next stage in starship design to make powerful ships that were actually a bit more maneuverable due to the Dominion War.
Im curious, where does the assumption come from that the Valdore-class (Mogai in STO) is supposed to be a "heavy" or more heavily armed ship than the D'd? It is significantly smaller and was never portrayed as having superior firepower. Instead, it's a smaller and probably more "nimble" design to rival the Galaxy-Sovereign development since the D'd warbirds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they were supposed to operate in line formation rather than ambushing and completely annihilating the target.
I know it exists because they wanted something fancier to show off in the movie and that backfired because they blew the budget early, but let's not go there since so many things can be explained with stupid RL reasons
I agree. I would suspect that the Mogai/Valdore/Norexan class was build during the TNG-era but was not seen onscreen OR that it was developed and put into production during the Dominion war. This is just speculation, of course.
I agree. I would suspect that the Mogai/Valdore/Norexan class was build during the TNG-era but was not seen onscreen OR that it was developed and put into production during the Dominion war. This is just speculation, of course.
An alternative theory is that the Mogai was the type of Warbird that was used attack the colony on Narendra III and subsequently destroyed the Enterprise-C (since I don't believe we saw the type of warbird used in Yesterday's Enterprise).
That would make the Ha'apax, Ha'feh, and Ha'nom the RSE's direct response to the arms race in regards to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
Constitution, D7, T'Liss. The Connie appears to be the dominant ship in this era.
The KDF then create the K't'inga to challenge the Connie, which leads to a response by the Federation in the form of the Excelsior, and the RSE creates the Dhelan which is shelved. The K't'inga might be considered the dominant ship of the era before the Excelsior. The Excelsior's failed transwarp experiment results in the Federation looking for a more powerful ship to challenge the K't'inga.
Which becomes the Ambassador, then the KDF create the Kamarag (which is shelved), and the Mogai by the RSE. Without a ship capable of competing with the Ambassador or Mogai, the KDF are at a disadvantage when it comes to Narendra III -- and the destruction of the Enterprise-C suggests the Mogai was the dominant ship in the mid-24th century.
The destruction of the Enterprise-C by Mogai warbirds then leads to the Galaxy, the Vor'cha, and the RSE responds with the D'Deridex.
Then the Sovereign, Negh'var, and Ha'apax/Ha'feh/Ha'nom family of warbirds developed in tandem.
Finally, the Scimitar (which among other subsequent threats), leads to the Odyssey, Bortasqu', and is then given updated designs in the form of the Tulwar and Falchion.
An alternative theory is that the Mogai was the type of Warbird that was used attack the colony on Narendra III and subsequently destroyed the Enterprise-C (since I don't believe we saw the type of warbird used in Yesterday's Enterprise).
That would make the Ha'apax, Ha'feh, and Ha'nom the RSE's direct response to the arms race in regards to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
Constitution, D7, T'Liss. The Connie appears to be the dominant ship in this era.
The KDF then create the K't'inga to challenge the Connie, which leads to a response by the Federation in the form of the Excelsior, and the RSE creates the Dhelan which is shelved. The K't'inga might be considered the dominant ship of the era before the Excelsior. The Excelsior's failed transwarp experiment results in the Federation looking for a more powerful ship to challenge the K't'inga.
Which becomes the Ambassador, then the KDF create the Kamarag (which is shelved), and the Mogai by the RSE. Without a ship capable of competing with the Ambassador or Mogai, the KDF are at a disadvantage when it comes to Narendra III -- and the destruction of the Enterprise-C suggests the Mogai was the dominant ship in the mid-24th century.
The destruction of the Enterprise-C by Mogai warbirds then leads to the Galaxy, the Vor'cha, and the RSE responds with the D'Deridex.
Then the Sovereign, Negh'var, and Ha'apax/Ha'feh/Ha'nom family of warbirds developed in tandem.
Finally, the Scimitar (which among other subsequent threats), leads to the Odyssey, Bortasqu', and is then given updated designs in the form of the Tulwar and Falchion.
I always envisioned the Ent-C was destroyed by several Big D'Ds. I think the book, "Vulcan's Heart" also implys this although that is not hard canon. It would not surprise me that the Mogai was built pre-TNG, and much like the Big D'D, was not seen by Starfleet until after the end of RSE's isolation and return to galatic politics.
This is the closest to an answer for it from canon.
Nowhere does that suggest that the Romulans traded THE single most effective weapon in all three powers (the cloak) for a couple of battlecruisers.
The only confirmed / canon Klingon-Romulan alliances are the one from Khitomer (where Worf's father was killed) which is post UC, and the one in the episodes of Reunion.
Oh, we'll play this stupid game?
Where is the evidence the Romulans captured D-7 Cruisers? :rolleyes:
Or maybe the Klingons captured Cloaking technology from the Romulans? :rolleyes:
Or maybe both parties agreed to trade? Take note of my earlier post regarding the "advanced" technology of the Romulan warbird dealt with by the Enterprise in "Balance of Terror." They had very real technological limitations despite their weapons & cloaking device. Then later we end up with Romulans flying D-7 Cruisers and Klingons conveniently sporting Cloaking devices, the Romulans' greatest technological marvel :rolleyes:
I always envisioned the Ent-C was destroyed by several Big D'Ds. I think the book, "Vulcan's Heart" also implys this although that is not hard canon. It would not surprise me that the Mogai was built pre-TNG, and much like the Big D'D, was not seen by Starfleet until after the end of RSE's isolation and return to galatic politics.
4 D'Deridex Warbirds vs. 1 Ambassador-class Cruiser brings a whole new definition of 'outgunned' to my mind.
Not saying that is or is not how it went down (fictionally speaking, of course), but good lord that is some serious overkill.
I'm surprised Rachel Garrett didn't complain to Starfleet Command about Romulan premades making pvp unfair.
200 D7-As were traded to the romulans without weapons. they were bigger and faster than anything the romulans had .........for
!2 cloaking devices ...of older technology
and the s-11 scout which the klingons loved so much they stated reproducing it as the BoP
source the fasa rpg/battle simulator approved by gene roddenbury as part of the Lore of star trek
The L-42 great bird replaced the D-7 as seen in tng...klingon civil war and the Vor'cha
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
200 D7-As were traded to the romulans without weapons. they were bigger and faster than anything the romulans had .........for
!2 cloaking devices ...of older technology
and the s-11 scout which the klingons loved so much they stated reproducing it as the BoP
source the fasa rpg/battle simulator approved by gene roddenbury as part of the Lore of star trek
The L-42 great bird replaced the D-7 as seen in tng...klingon civil war and the Vor'cha
That is not right. The FASA games are just licensed games, like any other Star Trek game out there. None of it is part of the official lore, being a "real" tabletop game with lots of manuals doesn't change that. I'm just mentioning this because frequently people try to bring the FASA material up in canon discussions, but it's just "beta" material.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I am personally in support of the early Romulan-Klingon alliance, several lines of dialogue in TNG hint at this and I find it more plausible than the use of captured vessels. However, we do not know anything detailed about that period of time. FASA, just like other publications of the time, just try to come up with something to fill the gap.That however doesn't make it official.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Where is the evidence the Romulans captured D-7 Cruisers? :rolleyes:
Or maybe the Klingons captured Cloaking technology from the Romulans? :rolleyes:
Or maybe both parties agreed to trade? Take note of my earlier post regarding the "advanced" technology of the Romulan warbird dealt with by the Enterprise in "Balance of Terror." They had very real technological limitations despite their weapons & cloaking device. Then later we end up with Romulans flying D-7 Cruisers and Klingons conveniently sporting Cloaking devices, the Romulans' greatest technological marvel :rolleyes:
There is no evidence for it. Maybe they did capture it.
Which seems more likely?
Neither is backed up by any evidence what so ever.
They are two pieces of evidence from dialog that 'lead' to the suggestion of an alliance.
Riker saying 'a new alliance' in Redemption. and Spock saying that 'Romulans are now using Klingon designs'.
Rikers comment must have being referring to the Kitomer alliance which is well after TOS, and the line in Redemption is silent as to the reason why the Roms were using D-7s.
So which makes more sense? Two galactic superpowers that are in the middle of a cold war with border skirmishes trade the single most game changing device in the quadrant for some big ships.
Or during these skirmishes both sided try to capture the others tec?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
4 D'Deridex Warbirds vs. 1 Ambassador-class Cruiser brings a whole new definition of 'outgunned' to my mind.
Not saying that is or is not how it went down (fictionally speaking, of course), but good lord that is some serious overkill.
I'm surprised Rachel Garrett didn't complain to Starfleet Command about Romulan premades making pvp unfair.
When you intend to massacre an entire colony, why simply use one or two ships? You use overwhelming force so as to minimize losses and attrition while maximizing damage inflicted to your opponent.
As some have said, "the only fair fight is the one where I will every time, and with overwhelming force." I suspect the Romulans very much believe in this mantra.
There is no evidence for it. Maybe they did capture it.
Which seems more likely?
Neither is backed up by any evidence what so ever.
They are two pieces of evidence from dialog that 'lead' to the suggestion of an alliance.
Riker saying 'a new alliance' in Redemption. and Spock saying that 'Romulans are now using Klingon designs'.
Rikers comment must have being referring to the Kitomer alliance which is well after TOS, and the line in Redemption is silent as to the reason why the Roms were using D-7s.
So which makes more sense? Two galactic superpowers that are in the middle of a cold war with border skirmishes trade the single most game changing device in the quadrant for some big ships.
Or during these skirmishes both sided try to capture the others tec?
Riker didn't say anything about an alliance in "Redeption", he said so in "Reunion".
And what the heck is a "Khitomer Alliance" supposed to be anyway? Never head of it.
Also Worf said this in "The Neutral Zone":
"Captain, these are Romulans. They are without honour. They killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer when they were supposed to be our allies."
So we got at least three.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" were not only using the Klingon ships, they were also using their hand weapons. That doesn't make much sense unless it's because they were getting those weapons along with spare parts for them from an outside supplier. Otherwise it's logistical nonsense.
In addition your theory means the Romulans capture Klingon ships and suddenly started building ships with typical Klingon design influences like anguler nacelles and the neck and forward hull design while the Klingons began to use cloaking tech fleet-wide. And both these things occured entirely because both sides had busily captured stuff from the others....from two enemies who were known to rather kill themselves and blow their ships up rather than get captured....under such circumstances an alliance is far more reasonable by comparison.
As far as the reason is concerned it's pretty obvious: a propulsion system that does not s*ck.
The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" was a slow snail, its speed didn't change between cloak on or off so please spare me the "the cloak made it move so slow" stuff.;)
In "The Enteprise Incident" the Enterprise was unable to outrun the Klingon ship even though she was already at Warp 9.
That's very obvious reason to trade: your cloak doesn't do you much good when you can't go anywhere.
And what the heck is a "Khitomer Alliance" supposed to be anyway? Never head of it.
Also Worf said this in "The Neutral Zone":
"Captain, these are Romulans. They are without honour. They killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer when they were supposed to be our allies."
So we got at least three.
That's the one, Kitomer / Alliance etc.
So still only two.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" were not only using the Klingon ships, they were also using their hand weapons. That doesn't make much sense unless it's because they were getting those weapons along with spare parts for them from an outside supplier. Otherwise it's logistical nonsense.
It makes plenty of sense. The D-7 presumably has an armoury on-board.
In addition your theory means the Romulans capture Klingon ships and suddenly started building ships with typical Klingon design influences like anguler nacelles and the neck and forward hull design while the Klingons began to use cloaking tech fleet-wide. And both these things occured entirely because both sides had busily captured stuff from the others....from two enemies who were known to rather kill themselves and blow their ships up rather than get captured....under such circumstances an alliance is far more reasonable by comparison.
No. Reverse engineering is likely why the ships were captured in the first place. Also the Romulan ships (like the D'D's) are nothing like D-7s, they have almost nothing in common with Klingon designs at all.
As far as the reason is concerned it's pretty obvious: a propulsion system that does not s*ck.
The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" was a slow snail, its speed didn't change between cloak on or off so please spare me the "the cloak made it move so slow" stuff.;)
In "The Enteprise Incident" the Enterprise was unable to outrun the Klingon ship even though she was already at Warp 9.
That's very obvious reason to trade: your cloak doesn't do you much good when you can't go anywhere.
I don't get this bit. Is this a reference to the claimed 'lack of warp' or something else?
The BoP was quite handy at darting between outposts and reaching them before the Enterprise got to the next one.
Capturing a Klingon ship would get you the engines without having to reveal the secrets behind your enormous tactical advantage.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
200 D7-As were traded to the romulans without weapons. they were bigger and faster than anything the romulans had .........for
!2 cloaking devices ...of older technology
and the s-11 scout which the klingons loved so much they stated reproducing it as the BoP
source the fasa rpg/battle simulator approved by gene roddenbury as part of the Lore of star trek
The L-42 great bird replaced the D-7 as seen in tng...klingon civil war and the Vor'cha
The "BoP is a Romulan design" theory was completely torpedoed by the 22nd century Bird of Prey seen in Enterprise. The Movie-era ship has been retconned on screen as a modern version of an earlier design, rather than a Romulan trade, while subsequent Romulan designs eschewed the BoP's unique engine / wing arrangement in favour of a more conventional pair of warp nacelles. Still, I agree that the larger BoPs seen in TNG seem to have replaced the K't'inga as the workhorse of the Klingon fleet - but let's at least give them the on-screen name of K'vort class and not the RPG designation .
Anyway - yes, there's nothing conclusive beyond the fact that (a) the TOS-Era Romulans used Klingon ships, and (b) in TNG there are references to a collapsed Romulan-Klingon alliance. However, there is equally nothing in TOS (or even Enterprise) which states that the Klingons and Romulans were in conflict prior to the Movie era - so any supposition that the Klingon vessels in the Enterpise Incident are captured is equally shaky.
Personally? I can see how after the events of S1 TOS the Klingons and Romulans would start to cooperate - the Klingons are stalled by the divinely-enforced Organian Peace Treaty, while the Romulans have found even their newest design badly inferior to the Federation's Constitution-class vessels. So it makes sense that, in desperation, the Klingons would start arming the Romulans in exchange for their cloaking devices and in the hope that a more aggressive Romulan empire would help contain the Federation.
They weren't really replaced although the best way imo to look at it they build new ship classes as the need arises to build one of equal stature in the case of an ally or enemy building something new.
Although if you look at the voyager episode where they encountered the Kuvah'magh or whatever pilgrimage where they were on a D7 for all those years. You can obviously tell they do build them to last plus upgrade them on the fly whenever they encounter better tech. In reality with the future of the KDF the devs should really take this concept to heart. Emphasis on tech itself and making the boff stations and console layouts be more flexible being the KDF never had that many different ship classes to begin with.
...Although if you look at the voyager episode where they encountered the Kuvah'magh or whatever pilgrimage where they were on a D7 for all those years. You can obviously tell they do build them to last plus upgrade them on the fly whenever they encounter better tech...
Yeah, even the Federation crews/ships did this, upgrade in the field. all the more reason to add additional ship appearance modifications to ships like the D7/K'tinga and other Federation and Romulan older vessels.
heh, things never change around here. Canon needs to get flushed
STO already did that
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
There is no evidence of this at all.
This is the closest to an answer for it from canon.
Nowhere does that suggest that the Romulans traded THE single most effective weapon in all three powers (the cloak) for a couple of battlecruisers.
The only confirmed / canon Klingon-Romulan alliances are the one from Khitomer (where Worf's father was killed) which is post UC, and the one in the episodes of Reunion.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I'm going by soft canon from Memory Beta, that said the Mogai was 'most likely' developed in response to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
You are correct though that it is just speculation and conjecture -- and my little arms race outline was really from my perspective of things, not necessarily true canon.
I see. Well, I would concur on the Sovereign. The D'ds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they didn't struck from a cloaked ambush, which however is pretty much the only way Romulans engaged in battles for at least two centuries. Romulans aren't bent on conquest and territorial control, which resembled their ships' design. With ships like the Sovereign which sacrificed some bulk and possibly raw firepower for more manoeuvreability I suspect the Valdore to do the same after the more traditional engagements of the Dominon war. The Negh'Var however was a reaction on the capital ships of the other powers and a late response of the Empire itself, in my opinion. This is also just specualtion on my end, but it just makes sense to me comparing the fleets of their time
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I saw the D'Deridex as more of an 'intimidating' design rather than conquest and territorial control. The Enterprise made a fool out of their flagship in TOS -- and in retrospect without needing the Dhelan design, the Romulans wanted a capital ship design that could strike fear into the Federation and KDF, and stand toe-to-toe with the Galaxy/Vor'cha.
Since it seemed the Romulans were 'done' playing second-string to their neighbors, and wanted to make it obvious this wasn't the same RSE from TOS.
I think that's also why they became so obsessed with more advanced and powerful ship designs like stealing the Prometheus' MVAM technology for incorporation on the Ha'apax, or the building of the Scimitar prototype.
The Mogai might seem smaller in profile to the D'Deridex but the wingspan is much wider. In comparison, the Sovereign is actually smaller in profile to the Galaxy, but is longer. To me it seemed to be the next stage in starship design to make powerful ships that were actually a bit more maneuverable due to the Dominion War.
Again, just conjecture and speculation.
I agree. I would suspect that the Mogai/Valdore/Norexan class was build during the TNG-era but was not seen onscreen OR that it was developed and put into production during the Dominion war. This is just speculation, of course.
An alternative theory is that the Mogai was the type of Warbird that was used attack the colony on Narendra III and subsequently destroyed the Enterprise-C (since I don't believe we saw the type of warbird used in Yesterday's Enterprise).
That would make the Ha'apax, Ha'feh, and Ha'nom the RSE's direct response to the arms race in regards to the Sovereign and Negh'var.
Constitution, D7, T'Liss. The Connie appears to be the dominant ship in this era.
The KDF then create the K't'inga to challenge the Connie, which leads to a response by the Federation in the form of the Excelsior, and the RSE creates the Dhelan which is shelved. The K't'inga might be considered the dominant ship of the era before the Excelsior. The Excelsior's failed transwarp experiment results in the Federation looking for a more powerful ship to challenge the K't'inga.
Which becomes the Ambassador, then the KDF create the Kamarag (which is shelved), and the Mogai by the RSE. Without a ship capable of competing with the Ambassador or Mogai, the KDF are at a disadvantage when it comes to Narendra III -- and the destruction of the Enterprise-C suggests the Mogai was the dominant ship in the mid-24th century.
The destruction of the Enterprise-C by Mogai warbirds then leads to the Galaxy, the Vor'cha, and the RSE responds with the D'Deridex.
Then the Sovereign, Negh'var, and Ha'apax/Ha'feh/Ha'nom family of warbirds developed in tandem.
Finally, the Scimitar (which among other subsequent threats), leads to the Odyssey, Bortasqu', and is then given updated designs in the form of the Tulwar and Falchion.
I always envisioned the Ent-C was destroyed by several Big D'Ds. I think the book, "Vulcan's Heart" also implys this although that is not hard canon. It would not surprise me that the Mogai was built pre-TNG, and much like the Big D'D, was not seen by Starfleet until after the end of RSE's isolation and return to galatic politics.
Oh, we'll play this stupid game?
Where is the evidence the Romulans captured D-7 Cruisers? :rolleyes:
Or maybe the Klingons captured Cloaking technology from the Romulans? :rolleyes:
Or maybe both parties agreed to trade? Take note of my earlier post regarding the "advanced" technology of the Romulan warbird dealt with by the Enterprise in "Balance of Terror." They had very real technological limitations despite their weapons & cloaking device. Then later we end up with Romulans flying D-7 Cruisers and Klingons conveniently sporting Cloaking devices, the Romulans' greatest technological marvel :rolleyes:
4 D'Deridex Warbirds vs. 1 Ambassador-class Cruiser brings a whole new definition of 'outgunned' to my mind.
Not saying that is or is not how it went down (fictionally speaking, of course), but good lord that is some serious overkill.
I'm surprised Rachel Garrett didn't complain to Starfleet Command about Romulan premades making pvp unfair.
!2 cloaking devices ...of older technology
and the s-11 scout which the klingons loved so much they stated reproducing it as the BoP
source the fasa rpg/battle simulator approved by gene roddenbury as part of the Lore of star trek
The L-42 great bird replaced the D-7 as seen in tng...klingon civil war and the Vor'cha
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That is not right. The FASA games are just licensed games, like any other Star Trek game out there. None of it is part of the official lore, being a "real" tabletop game with lots of manuals doesn't change that. I'm just mentioning this because frequently people try to bring the FASA material up in canon discussions, but it's just "beta" material.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I am personally in support of the early Romulan-Klingon alliance, several lines of dialogue in TNG hint at this and I find it more plausible than the use of captured vessels. However, we do not know anything detailed about that period of time. FASA, just like other publications of the time, just try to come up with something to fill the gap.That however doesn't make it official.
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There is no evidence for it. Maybe they did capture it.
Which seems more likely?
Neither is backed up by any evidence what so ever.
They are two pieces of evidence from dialog that 'lead' to the suggestion of an alliance.
Riker saying 'a new alliance' in Redemption. and Spock saying that 'Romulans are now using Klingon designs'.
Rikers comment must have being referring to the Kitomer alliance which is well after TOS, and the line in Redemption is silent as to the reason why the Roms were using D-7s.
So which makes more sense? Two galactic superpowers that are in the middle of a cold war with border skirmishes trade the single most game changing device in the quadrant for some big ships.
Or during these skirmishes both sided try to capture the others tec?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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When you intend to massacre an entire colony, why simply use one or two ships? You use overwhelming force so as to minimize losses and attrition while maximizing damage inflicted to your opponent.
As some have said, "the only fair fight is the one where I will every time, and with overwhelming force." I suspect the Romulans very much believe in this mantra.
Riker didn't say anything about an alliance in "Redeption", he said so in "Reunion".
And what the heck is a "Khitomer Alliance" supposed to be anyway? Never head of it.
Also Worf said this in "The Neutral Zone":
"Captain, these are Romulans. They are without honour. They killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer when they were supposed to be our allies."
So we got at least three.
Also, the Romulans in "The Enterprise Incident" were not only using the Klingon ships, they were also using their hand weapons. That doesn't make much sense unless it's because they were getting those weapons along with spare parts for them from an outside supplier. Otherwise it's logistical nonsense.
In addition your theory means the Romulans capture Klingon ships and suddenly started building ships with typical Klingon design influences like anguler nacelles and the neck and forward hull design while the Klingons began to use cloaking tech fleet-wide. And both these things occured entirely because both sides had busily captured stuff from the others....from two enemies who were known to rather kill themselves and blow their ships up rather than get captured....under such circumstances an alliance is far more reasonable by comparison.
As far as the reason is concerned it's pretty obvious: a propulsion system that does not s*ck.
The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" was a slow snail, its speed didn't change between cloak on or off so please spare me the "the cloak made it move so slow" stuff.;)
In "The Enteprise Incident" the Enterprise was unable to outrun the Klingon ship even though she was already at Warp 9.
That's very obvious reason to trade: your cloak doesn't do you much good when you can't go anywhere.
Yeah that was a typo.
That's the one, Kitomer / Alliance etc.
So still only two.
It makes plenty of sense. The D-7 presumably has an armoury on-board.
No. Reverse engineering is likely why the ships were captured in the first place. Also the Romulan ships (like the D'D's) are nothing like D-7s, they have almost nothing in common with Klingon designs at all.
I don't get this bit. Is this a reference to the claimed 'lack of warp' or something else?
The BoP was quite handy at darting between outposts and reaching them before the Enterprise got to the next one.
Capturing a Klingon ship would get you the engines without having to reveal the secrets behind your enormous tactical advantage.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The "BoP is a Romulan design" theory was completely torpedoed by the 22nd century Bird of Prey seen in Enterprise. The Movie-era ship has been retconned on screen as a modern version of an earlier design, rather than a Romulan trade, while subsequent Romulan designs eschewed the BoP's unique engine / wing arrangement in favour of a more conventional pair of warp nacelles. Still, I agree that the larger BoPs seen in TNG seem to have replaced the K't'inga as the workhorse of the Klingon fleet - but let's at least give them the on-screen name of K'vort class and not the RPG designation
Anyway - yes, there's nothing conclusive beyond the fact that (a) the TOS-Era Romulans used Klingon ships, and (b) in TNG there are references to a collapsed Romulan-Klingon alliance. However, there is equally nothing in TOS (or even Enterprise) which states that the Klingons and Romulans were in conflict prior to the Movie era - so any supposition that the Klingon vessels in the Enterpise Incident are captured is equally shaky.
Personally? I can see how after the events of S1 TOS the Klingons and Romulans would start to cooperate - the Klingons are stalled by the divinely-enforced Organian Peace Treaty, while the Romulans have found even their newest design badly inferior to the Federation's Constitution-class vessels. So it makes sense that, in desperation, the Klingons would start arming the Romulans in exchange for their cloaking devices and in the hope that a more aggressive Romulan empire would help contain the Federation.
Although if you look at the voyager episode where they encountered the Kuvah'magh or whatever pilgrimage where they were on a D7 for all those years. You can obviously tell they do build them to last plus upgrade them on the fly whenever they encounter better tech. In reality with the future of the KDF the devs should really take this concept to heart. Emphasis on tech itself and making the boff stations and console layouts be more flexible being the KDF never had that many different ship classes to begin with.
Yeah, even the Federation crews/ships did this, upgrade in the field. all the more reason to add additional ship appearance modifications to ships like the D7/K'tinga and other Federation and Romulan older vessels.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
STO already did that
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