Historically...what Klingon ship replaced the D7/K'tinga?

goodscotch

Was it the Vor'cha? Or was it the Bird-of-Prey line?

artan42

goodscotch wrote: »

Was it the Vor'cha? Or was it the Bird-of-Prey line?

In game the D-8 Kamarag.

In the shows the D- 7 K'tingas were used during the Dominion war.

However they were most likely phased out for more Vor'chas

stofsk

The D7/K't'ingas seem to be roughly analogous to the Constitution/Excelsior evolution, while the Vor'cha is analogous to the Galaxy-class.

An intermediate ship class between the K't'inga and the Vor'cha (something that's analogous to the Ambassador-class) would probably fit. There's nothing in canon that points to such a ship*, but in STO that ship would be the Kamarag.

* Except maybe one of the larger BoP classes, like the K'vort. In my view though I consider BoPs to be a separate class altogether. They seem to work best in groups, or solo missions where stealth is needed (scouting or behind-the-lines style raiding).

ursusmorologus

They were both still in use during the Dominion wars. Mirandas were used too, ofc, so take it as you will.

virusdancer

D7 -> K't'inga -> Vor'cha -> Negh'Var

STO adds several ships before/after/here/there...

As mentioned though, you saw the K't'inga even after seeing the Vor'cha and Negh'Var - just as you saw older Fed vessels after seeing newer Fed vessels.

bitemepwe

The BoP line, including the Kvort, was designed and used for different purposes that the larger battle cruisers would have been wasted onm

mimey2

Also keep in mind that the K't'ingas and such you might've seen in the Dominion War of DS9 were also possibly a mothball fleet.

Klingons tend to not 'throw' ships away at all, and simply keep upgrading them most of the time, but even they would have a 'mothball fleet' most likely, a common enough thing even in today's world, of ships they simply didn't need right now, and kept to the side lines.

Same reason why Starfleet pulled out all their probably very unused, and long mothballed Mirandas in the Dominion War as well. It's easier and faster to refit an old ship than it is to build new ships.

To use another real-world example: The Nimitz-class carriers were the main carriers and such of the US Navy for decades, were refitted a couple times during their lifetime, but are slowly getting replaced by the new 'Gerald R. Ford' class. A good comparison to Star Trek in that regard is the Excelsior class. It was used for a LOOONG time in the shows, practically an entire century of usage of one ship design, refitted and updated as technology improved.

As for what directly replaced the D7/K't'inga, the Vor'cha did, in terms of only what the shows...showed us.

davidwford

virusdancer wrote: »

D7 -> K't'inga -> Vor'cha -> Negh'Var

STO adds several ships before/after/here/there...

As mentioned though, you saw the K't'inga even after seeing the Vor'cha and Negh'Var - just as you saw older Fed vessels after seeing newer Fed vessels.

This. I agree that the Vor'Cha replaced the D7/K't'inga.

mimey2 wrote: »

Also keep in mind that the K't'ingas and such you might've seen in the Dominion War of DS9 were also possibly a mothball fleet.

Klingons tend to not 'throw' ships away at all, and simply keep upgrading them most of the time, but even they would have a 'mothball fleet' most likely, a common enough thing even in today's world, of ships they simply didn't need right now, and kept to the side lines.

Same reason why Starfleet pulled out all their probably very unused, and long mothballed Mirandas in the Dominion War as well. It's easier and faster to refit an old ship than it is to build new ships.

To use another real-world example: The Nimitz-class carriers were the main carriers and such of the US Navy for decades, were refitted a couple times during their lifetime, but are slowly getting replaced by the new 'Gerald R. Ford' class. A good comparison to Star Trek in that regard is the Excelsior class. It was used for a LOOONG time in the shows, practically an entire century of usage of one ship design, refitted and updated as technology improved.

As for what directly replaced the D7/K't'inga, the Vor'cha did, in terms of only what the shows...showed us.

THank you. I cound not have said it better myself.

warmaker001b

artan42 wrote: »

In game the D-8 Kamarag.

In the shows the D- 7 K'tingas were used during the Dominion war.

However they were most likely phased out for more Vor'chas

Yep, canon-wise, the Vor'Chas replaced the D-7 / K'T'Inga line, thought hey were still being used in TNG/DS9/Dominion War era.

stofsk

mimey2 wrote: »

Also keep in mind that the K't'ingas and such you might've seen in the Dominion War of DS9 were also possibly a mothball fleet.

Klingons tend to not 'throw' ships away at all, and simply keep upgrading them most of the time, but even they would have a 'mothball fleet' most likely, a common enough thing even in today's world, of ships they simply didn't need right now, and kept to the side lines.

It's interesting to note that no other faction has anywhere near the kind of ship variety that Starfleet has. They tend to settle on one particular design and any others are conjectures from non-canon sources.

Starfleet on the other hand has a wide variety of ship classes, ranging from ones we see one or two times, to more standard work-horse designs like your Mirandas and Excelsiors. We know the out of universe answer to this. In-universe might be anything that sounds reasonable. I like the idea that all the other factions have their own prototype ships but they keep them hidden well enough. Sort of like how the cardassians have the Galor class ships as their work horse military vessel, with the more powerful Keldon class developed in secret and kept away from prying eyes.

mandoknight89

artan42 wrote: »

In game the D-8 Kamarag.

The given lore for the Kamarag states that it was prototyped just before TNG-era, but never entered general production until around 2409.

"The Kamarag class was first designed in the mid-24th century, but only a few prototype vessels were built. After problems were found in the ship's power transfer systems, the design was shelved. Empire engineers later created the mighty Vor'cha Battle Cruiser.

Now that the Klingon Empire and its allies are looking for new ships, a team at the Ty'Gokor shipyards has revisited the Kamarag class. Its power problems were easily solved by modern EPS systems, and the Kamarag was reimagined as a mid-sized vessel that can be tougher than a Bird-of-Prey but more maneuverable than a Battle Cruiser."

(Source: Season 7 Blog #33)

doffingcomrade

mimey2 wrote: »

A good comparison to Star Trek in that regard is the Excelsior class. It was used for a LOOONG time in the shows, practically an entire century of usage of one ship design, refitted and updated as technology improved.

By STO's era, it seems clear that the Excelsior is Starfleet's B-52: A plane that just keeps on going, while attempted successors have all been retired, with no end in sight.

mimey2 wrote: »

As for what directly replaced the D7/K't'inga, the Vor'cha did, in terms of only what the shows...showed us.

Far as we know, nothing ever really replaced it, since the Klingons were still fielding them in quantity, but the Vorcha seems to have supplanted it as the Klingon line warship. Neghvars have never been used in a line warship role on the show, only as command ships.

mandoknight89

doffingcomrade wrote: »

Far as we know, nothing ever really replaced it, since the Klingons were still fielding them in quantity, but the Vorcha seems to have supplanted it as the Klingon line warship. Neghvars have never been used in a line warship role on the show, only as command ships.

Negh'vars were also the newest ships in the Klingon fleet at the time. TNG used Vor'chas in a similar manner (the first few appearances were as the chancellor's flagship, for both K'mpec and Gowron).

jellico1

goodscotch wrote: »

Was it the Vor'cha? Or was it the Bird-of-Prey line?

---

The L-42 Great Bird seemed to be the logical choice to replace the D-7 but no canon exists to prove or disprove it

The entire bop line of warships were very popular at that time

artan42

mandoknight89 wrote: »

The given lore for the Kamarag states that it was prototyped just before TNG-era, but never entered general production until around 2409.

"The Kamarag class was first designed in the mid-24th century, but only a few prototype vessels were built. After problems were found in the ship's power transfer systems, the design was shelved. Empire engineers later created the mighty Vor'cha Battle Cruiser.

Now that the Klingon Empire and its allies are looking for new ships, a team at the Ty'Gokor shipyards has revisited the Kamarag class. Its power problems were easily solved by modern EPS systems, and the Kamarag was reimagined as a mid-sized vessel that can be tougher than a Bird-of-Prey but more maneuverable than a Battle Cruiser."

(Source: Season 7 Blog #33)

Interesting.

So why don't we have the Type 3 hull material for it Cryptic???

futurepastnow

In canon, we don't know what, if anything, came between the K't'inga and and the Vor'cha. It's likely some other battlecruiser was in there, probably around the Enterprise-C era. The game's answer is the Kamarag, which looks the part.

warmaker001b

artan42 wrote: »

Interesting.

So why don't we have the Type 3 hull material for it Cryptic???

There's other KDF ships that don't have the new Type 3 hull either. Negh'var I think is a mega example.

futurepastnow wrote: »

In canon, we don't know what, if anything, came between the K't'inga and and the Vor'cha. It's likely some other battlecruiser was in there, probably around the Enterprise-C era. The game's answer is the Kamarag, which looks the part.

If just talking onscreen, there is no bridge between the K'T'Inga and Vor'Cha. So the onscreen, canon Klingon Cruiser lineage goes as:

D-7 / K'T'Inga / Vor'Cha / Negh'var

I didn't bother with ENT so not sure what was shown there, so I stuck with TOS onwards.

Also, the Negh'var was not made as a replacement for the Vor'Cha. Negh'vars were more as flagship quality vessels. The funny thing with General Martok, and I guess one of the things that made him awesome, was that despite having such a major command during the Dominion War, he never made a Negh'Var or even Vor'Cha as his flagship. He preferred a simple B'Rel BOP. He had a large fleet likely encompassing everything available to the Empire, but he commanded from a B'Rel the entire time.

age03

It was the Vorcha as the K'tinga replaced the D7 class.

davidwford

warmaker001b wrote: »

Also, the Negh'var was not made as a replacement for the Vor'Cha. Negh'vars were more as flagship quality vessels. The funny thing with General Martok, and I guess one of the things that made him awesome, was that despite having such a major command during the Dominion War, he never made a Negh'Var or even Vor'Cha as his flagship. He preferred a simple B'Rel BOP. He had a large fleet likely encompassing everything available to the Empire, but he commanded from a B'Rel the entire time.

Haynes Klingon Bird of Prey Owner's Manual states that the Vor'Cha design to replace the K'T'inga was personally approved by K'mpec and as such, one of the first ones was used as his personal flagship (Wheter it was the IKS Vor'Cha or the IKS Quam'Chee is another discussion).

That same book also states that it was Gowron who approved the Negh'Var, even though the Vor'Cha class IKS Bortas was his flagship during the Klingon Civil War. My guess is that after defeating the House of Duras and its supporters, he felt he had to prove something by making a bigger ship. That same book also states that the Negh'Var has many features that cause mass production of the design impractical.

It is likely that with time, the production capabilities improved so that it was easier to make more ships.. It could also be possible that some of the cutting edge features of the prototype Negh'Var were dropped from production line versions to further make it easier to mass produce the ship. It is not uncommon today for the second or third prototype to be better quality that the first mass production models.

One case in point is the US Navy's Spruance/Kidd-class destroyers. The Kidd class was the original design, but the US Navy told the designers to remove some redundancies so as to make the ship more affordable. The Shah of Iran ordered the same ship, but wanted the fully equipped version that the US declined. After the 1979 Revolution, Khomeini canceled the order, with several of these ships nearly completed. Northrup-Grundman then turned around and asked the US Navy if they wanted to pay the final payment for finishing the ships as the Shah had already paid most of the cost. Hence, the nickname "Ayatollah-class".

artan42

warmaker001b wrote: »

There's other KDF ships that don't have the new Type 3 hull either. Negh'var I think is a mega example.

But that bit of lore said that the Kamarag was a 2409 ship, the Negh'Var is a DS9 era ship.

age03 wrote: »

It was the Vorcha as the K'tinga replaced the D7 class.

The K'tinga is a refitted D-7 , it didn't really replace it.

nickcastleton

from a series stand point the beral was newer in search for spock and may be that it was replacing the Klingon D7 at the time with D7's being slowly phased out but as for which cruiser replaced it who knows.

arilouskiff

stofsk wrote: »

It's interesting to note that no other faction has anywhere near the kind of ship variety that Starfleet has. They tend to settle on one particular design and any others are conjectures from non-canon sources.

Starfleet on the other hand has a wide variety of ship classes, ranging from ones we see one or two times, to more standard work-horse designs like your Mirandas and Excelsiors. We know the out of universe answer to this. In-universe might be anything that sounds reasonable. I like the idea that all the other factions have their own prototype ships but they keep them hidden well enough. Sort of like how the cardassians have the Galor class ships as their work horse military vessel, with the more powerful Keldon class developed in secret and kept away from prying eyes.

I always assumed it was because while the KDF designs their stuff for war (and thus must be ready to, essentially, pull out a production line at any moment) Starfleet is mostly dealing with exploration and such, and can thus afford to put out more individualized design.

oldravenman3025

artan42 wrote: »

But that bit of lore said that the Kamarag was a 2409 ship, the Negh'Var is a DS9 era ship.



The K'tinga is a refitted D-7 , it didn't really replace it.

The K't'inga was an entirely new vessel based on the D7 design, and was part of a design linage stretching back to the old D5.


Probably the reason for Starfleet's "top to bottom" redesign of the Constitution class into what amounted to an entirely new vessel.

artan42

oldravenman3025 wrote: »

The K't'inga was an entirely new vessel based on the D7 design, and was part of a design linage stretching back to the old D5.


Probably the reason for Starfleet's "top to bottom" redesign of the Constitution class into what amounted to an entirely new vessel.

How is it anything like a D5?

It's a refit in the exact same way the Constitution was refitted.

angrytarg

warmaker001b wrote: »

(...)

Also, the Negh'var was not made as a replacement for the Vor'Cha. Negh'vars were more as flagship quality vessels. The funny thing with General Martok, and I guess one of the things that made him awesome, was that despite having such a major command during the Dominion War, he never made a Negh'Var or even Vor'Cha as his flagship. He preferred a simple B'Rel BOP. He had a large fleet likely encompassing everything available to the Empire, but he commanded from a B'Rel the entire time.

I always figured that the Negh'Var was the Empire's response to the Galaxy Class. If you analyse them, Klingon ships are not meant to operate independently while Starfleet always designed multi-mission ships that were able to act alone in most given situations. Even the Vor'Cha is more of a formation dependant battle cruiser. It never sat well with the Empire that the Federation would have more powerful ships and so the Negh'Var took the place as command ships, produced in smaller number just like the Starfleet counterpart. It was also the first Klingon vessel you would suspect to have a broad mission profile and a lower demand for supporting ships. The Vor'cha on the other hand is rivaled IMHO by the Sovereign class ships in Starfleet. Lesser bulk and straight-forward firepower, but more manoeuvreable and agile.

davidwford

Ultimately, I see comparing the Galaxy and Sovereign to the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var is like trying to compare Soviet Mi-24 (Hind) helicopters to US Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. Different militaries and paramilitaries have different requirements and as such while the vehicles may be similar, they have entirely different mission profiles.

angrytarg

davidwford wrote: »

Ultimately, I see comparing the Galaxy and Sovereign to the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var is like trying to compare Soviet Mi-24 (Hind) helicopters to US Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. Different militaries and paramilitaries have different requirements and as such while the vehicles may be similar, they have entirely different mission profiles.

This is correct (although I have no idea about RL military stuff, at least past the napoleonic era XD), but you can still compare them. All the Klingon starships we know are part of the KDF, which is the Klingon's military. All of them are warships, battle cruisers and raiders. Starfleet on the other hand is a different kind of organization (as much as people want to deny that ) and they are not warships but star cruisers with an entirely different design philosophy. Yet you can put them side by side and see similarities in their tactical use. Most of what can be said about the Galaxy class in terms of strength and weaknesses, design philosophy and numbers produced etc. can be projected on the Negh'Var. The Vor'cha/Sovereign comparision is my own, though. There is nothing on screen that creates a link between those, but it is possible IMO to make this comparision via deductive reasoning and observation

iconians

artan42 wrote: »

But that bit of lore said that the Kamarag was a 2409 ship, the Negh'Var is a DS9 era ship.

The Kamarag wasn't a 2409-era ship. The ship was designed in the mid-24th century. The K'Maj variant might be a 2409-era design, however.

It was very clever kitbash of the Vor'cha and K't'inga. It has a Vor'cha-like hull, but a K't'inga forward command pod.

The Kamarag was likely developed (in fact I'd bet money on it), as a response to the Ambassador-class. However, due to the EPS issues it apparently had, it was shelved up until they created the Vor'cha.

The current Kamarags use 2409-era technology to correct the design flaws, but the ships themselves were mid-24th century designs.

Similarly, the Dhelan-class Warbird is actually a 23rd-century design as an upgrade to the T'Liss, and to give the RSE some firepower to compete with the Constitution-class. However, because political tensions between the two factions diminished, it remained in the prototype stage (aka it was shelved just like the Kamarag), and only came about in 2409 due to the Romulan Republic being desperate for ships.

Here's a very brief breakdown of the 'arms' race in regards to starships, at least from my perspective.

Starfleet creates the Constitution. The KDF has the D7. The RSE tries to compete with the T'Liss but appears to be outgunned by the Federation's Connie -- as evidenced by the Enterprise. The RSE later begins using D7s as part of their brief alliance with the KDF.

RSE creates the prototype Dhelan, but all ships are put into mothball fleets as political tensions are cooled.

The KDF creates the K't'inga-class. Starfleet responds with the creation of the Excelsior-class, with the Connie to be retired.

Time passes, and Starfleet creates the Ambassador-class. The KDF are similarly working on a new battlecruiser to compete with the Ambassador, the Kamarag. Design flaws in the power system prevents it from going into widespread use, and eventually gets shelved until said flaws can be corrected. The RSE incorporates Warbirds, but it's unknown what type they were (I don't think we ever saw a good image of them from Yesterday's Enterprise).

Starfleet creates the Galaxy-class, the KDF respond with the Vor'cha. The RSE creates the D'Deridex.

Starfleet creates the Sovereign-class, the KDF creates the Negh'Var, the RSE creates the Mogai, then later the Ha'apax, Ha'feh, and Ha'nom in tandem to maintain combat superiority. The RSE's interest in the MVAM from Starfleet's Prometheus prototype is later found to result in the Ha'apax's dual-vector technology.

Shinzon unleashes the Scimitar, which is quickly destroyed, but proved itself as a superior space vessel by being able to simultaneously engage a Sovereign-class assault cruiser and Mo'gai heavy warbirds. The RSE later begins building more, as do the Remans.

Eventually, Starfleet responds to threats from the KDF and the dreadnought warbirds of the RSE (and advanced ships seen elsewhere) and in 2409 launches the Odyssey. The KDF respond by launching the Bortas, and the Bortasqu' sub-types. The Romulan Republic responds with upgraded dreadnought warbirds based on the Scimitar's successful design, the Tulwar and Falchion.

angrytarg

iconians wrote: »

(...)

Shinzon unleashes the Scimitar, which is quickly destroyed, but proved itself as a superior space vessel by being able to simultaneously engage a Sovereign-class assault cruiser and Mo'gai heavy warbirds. The RSE later begins building more, as do the Remans.

(...)

Im curious, where does the assumption come from that the Valdore-class (Mogai in STO) is supposed to be a "heavy" or more heavily armed ship than the D'd? It is significantly smaller and was never portrayed as having superior firepower. Instead, it's a smaller and probably more "nimble" design to rival the Galaxy-Sovereign development since the D'd warbirds were shown to have significant weaknesses when they were supposed to operate in line formation rather than ambushing and completely annihilating the target.

I know it exists because they wanted something fancier to show off in the movie and that backfired because they blew the budget early, but let's not go there since so many things can be explained with stupid RL reasons

artan42

iconians wrote: »

Starfleet creates the Constitution. The KDF has the D7. The RSE tries to compete with the T'Liss but appears to be outgunned by the Federation's Connie -- as evidenced by the Enterprise. The RSE later begins using D7s as part of their brief alliance with the KDF.

After capturing a few in battle.

warmaker001b

artan42 wrote: »

After capturing a few in battle.

They didn't capture D-7's from the Klingons. The Romulans got D-7's as part of an agreement with the Klingons, in exchange for Cloaking technology.

Romulan ship building and power core technology was terrible in the TOS era. "Balance of Terror" should be a terrific indicator on the power and limitations of Romulan technology of the time before the diplomatic agreement of the RSE & Klingon Empire. The T'Liss sent on the cross-Neutral Zone raid (a blatant violation of the peace treaty between the RSE & Federation) had powerful Plasma Torpedo weaponry that could 1 or 2 shot outposts and had a very real chance to 1 shot the USS Enterprise (Constitution-classes are the pride of the Starfleet lineup). But the ship was fragile and the power core was very limiting. Near misses were very damaging to the ship. All throughout the episode the Romulans of the ship were mentioning that all their actions, including keeping Cloaks on, were draining their fuel and they had to have enough to get home to Romulus. The Enterprise constantly pursuing and harassing them was a major hindrance. The captain simply wanted to cloak and go home, but Kirk was doing everything in his power to stop that. And the chase was killing the ship's power reserves.

The exchange between the two Empires was of huge importance to both, but the Romulans really needed it more.