I was joking, I know that!:D
OK, this is my PvP personal ranking:
1 A skilled Fed premade or pugmade team mastering teamworking and crosshealing
2 A skilled KDF premade or pugmade team mastering vape attacks and harassing tactics
3 A KDF pug team
4 A Fed pug team
The results? Only few Fed players win against the evuls, the rest of them bear to lose nearly every time or leave the PvP.
you are missing the entry:
A skilled KDF premade or pugmade team mastering teamworking and crosshealing
korath, palisade, both are excellent choices, the dyson science destroyer is one of the best drain ships in the game then there is the varanus ha'num and r'mor. although technically not a sci ship the karfi is an excellent choice to do SCIENCE
in PvP wins who has the best team, surely not the scimi-atb-valdre,marion-dem-faw-beams. What you should worry about are the DHC variants, with our without AtB :P
Many just kirk it like nothing... there's no I win button, except the a fully buffed Nadion bomb.
there has never been a wider variety of viable builds. unfortunately after they nerf the bio torp, there will be less.
I'll continue using it after the patch with Spread. If it's weaker, then I'll just swap the aft gravimetric with biomolecular front... good 'n old Protonic Arsenal always served me well, I still miss those nasty rifts from spreads
korath, palisade, both are excellent choices, then there is the varanus ha'num and r'mor
Varanaus...meh...+7 Inertia for -5 Aux and -0.1 Shield Mod for the regular version vs. the DSSV. With Fleet, it's +1 Tac Console/-1 Sci Console and a -0.13 Shield Mod now. That's 13% less base shield cap and shield regen.
I also believe that knowing you're about to go up against a team with majority cloakers is different than just randomly meeting in the Qs.
Snoopers are going to be way less effective against non cloaking targets.
So as a general question, what should a team bring if you don't know whom you gonna face and what ships the opponent will bring?
A cloakable ship, spec'd and geared for vaping duties, or a fat recluse, spec'd for monster heals, are very good at what they are intended to do.
But can a recluse work as a good sci/offense or even as a snooper, chasing a slippy runner across the map?
At what point becomes a Scimitar, Recluse, or a vaper, a liability for your team? Choose these kind of ships, and you've painted yourself into a corner where you cannot escape.
A well set-up team will prey on those blunders. Even a lot of the experienced PvP fleets did not (and still do not) understand, which enabled us to stomp even the strongest premades as if they were pugs, in less then ten minutes. So on that note, if you see me flying in my vaper, or if you see us bringing scimitars into a match or something like that, then you'll know we are just goofing around for the lulz, that we are very vulnerable.
So I have to disagree with your statement. Knowing beforehand what your gonna be facing is good, but not required. A good team will be able to adapt on the fly.
A snooper is easily built and can be switched to, if need be. So yeah, adapting to vapers in a fast science vessel is a lot easier than in some hulking healer that can't move for sh*t.
The general feeling i get when doing premade pvp (if i ever do it) is that speed is a lot more important now then it ever was. Not only can you adapt your support ships to fill multiple roles, but it enables different strategies in general. Sadly i never see this potential used too much. Every pug match generally escalates into a swirling ball of death, where the loosing team is just too keen to fly into and get obliterated.
Preamdes aren't that far off either. Ships fly around each other, someone gets multinuked (sometimes a single nuke will suffice), and double spiked afterwards. The only thing that could have been done would be to nuke the opposing teams alphas off, but that would not have been very sportsmanlike.
Tell me (everyone in general). What if you know every counter to every skill in the game and every timing related move? What's left after that?
The general feeling i get when doing premade pvp (if i ever do it) is that speed is a lot more important now then it ever was.
Indeed. The gameplay has become way more fast paced in general.
Speed is a component that is still being overlooked by some, maybe because it conflicts with the prevalent "dps spreadsheeting" attitude (people who think x dps equals x skill).
Team setups that were considered tough to beat, like vaper premades, or zombie tank premades, or FAW-teams, to their horror got torn to pieces in record time by some of our speed-optimized builds. I once showed Hilbert a video of such a match, he jokingly remarked the video looked like being fast-forwarded. Very effective, very fun to play.
Sadly, you need a full team to make it work, one single pug oblivious of the strategy would most likely ruin it.
What if you know every counter to every skill in the game and every timing related move?
IMO it's not that simple.
No one, not even the most experienced veteran, knows everything about the game. Be it tactics, overall-strategy, weird synergies or even keybinds, you never stop learning. The constant supply of new ships, toys, new patches etc. open up new possibilities that one maybe didn't think of before. I've also learned much just by watching some pugs play or listening to casual PvE'ers on teamspeak.
And also, successful premades with only few challenges left do have the tendency to become somewhat stagnant and complacent, which makes them vulnerable and prone to get beaten at some point. Happened to TSI, Pandas, TRH, and Inner Circle.
No one, not even the most experienced veteran, knows everything about the game. Be it tactics, overall-strategy, weird synergies or even keybinds, you never stop learning. The constant supply of new ships, toys, new patches etc. open up new possibilities that one maybe didn't think of before. I've also learned much just by watching some pugs play or listening to casual PvE'ers on teamspeak.
I think a lot of folks underestimate the underlying complexity of the game and that leads them to underestimate the sheer amount of potential strategies/tactics that one can undertake; while those that understand this can do things some consider magic...and...would likely call hax!
One can complain about the game being too casual, without taking away from the sheer complexity that exists in the game...
Comments
you are missing the entry:
A skilled KDF premade or pugmade team mastering teamworking and crosshealing
Those 3x Wells...they're 3x Korath.
Though the Roms in their 3x R'Mor are laughing at both.
Many just kirk it like nothing... there's no I win button, except the a fully buffed Nadion bomb.
I'll continue using it after the patch with Spread. If it's weaker, then I'll just swap the aft gravimetric with biomolecular front... good 'n old Protonic Arsenal always served me well, I still miss those nasty rifts from spreads
Varanaus...meh...+7 Inertia for -5 Aux and -0.1 Shield Mod for the regular version vs. the DSSV. With Fleet, it's +1 Tac Console/-1 Sci Console and a -0.13 Shield Mod now. That's 13% less base shield cap and shield regen.
So as a general question, what should a team bring if you don't know whom you gonna face and what ships the opponent will bring?
A cloakable ship, spec'd and geared for vaping duties, or a fat recluse, spec'd for monster heals, are very good at what they are intended to do.
But can a recluse work as a good sci/offense or even as a snooper, chasing a slippy runner across the map?
At what point becomes a Scimitar, Recluse, or a vaper, a liability for your team? Choose these kind of ships, and you've painted yourself into a corner where you cannot escape.
A well set-up team will prey on those blunders. Even a lot of the experienced PvP fleets did not (and still do not) understand, which enabled us to stomp even the strongest premades as if they were pugs, in less then ten minutes. So on that note, if you see me flying in my vaper, or if you see us bringing scimitars into a match or something like that, then you'll know we are just goofing around for the lulz, that we are very vulnerable.
So I have to disagree with your statement. Knowing beforehand what your gonna be facing is good, but not required. A good team will be able to adapt on the fly.
If your using the detection consoles it isn't hard to swap them with something more useful in your inventory.
Most (Edit All) of the Standard CC does a great job VS cloak and non cloak.
A snooper is easily built and can be switched to, if need be. So yeah, adapting to vapers in a fast science vessel is a lot easier than in some hulking healer that can't move for sh*t.
The general feeling i get when doing premade pvp (if i ever do it) is that speed is a lot more important now then it ever was. Not only can you adapt your support ships to fill multiple roles, but it enables different strategies in general. Sadly i never see this potential used too much. Every pug match generally escalates into a swirling ball of death, where the loosing team is just too keen to fly into and get obliterated.
Preamdes aren't that far off either. Ships fly around each other, someone gets multinuked (sometimes a single nuke will suffice), and double spiked afterwards. The only thing that could have been done would be to nuke the opposing teams alphas off, but that would not have been very sportsmanlike.
Tell me (everyone in general). What if you know every counter to every skill in the game and every timing related move? What's left after that?
Indeed. The gameplay has become way more fast paced in general.
Speed is a component that is still being overlooked by some, maybe because it conflicts with the prevalent "dps spreadsheeting" attitude (people who think x dps equals x skill).
Team setups that were considered tough to beat, like vaper premades, or zombie tank premades, or FAW-teams, to their horror got torn to pieces in record time by some of our speed-optimized builds. I once showed Hilbert a video of such a match, he jokingly remarked the video looked like being fast-forwarded. Very effective, very fun to play.
Sadly, you need a full team to make it work, one single pug oblivious of the strategy would most likely ruin it.
IMO it's not that simple.
No one, not even the most experienced veteran, knows everything about the game. Be it tactics, overall-strategy, weird synergies or even keybinds, you never stop learning. The constant supply of new ships, toys, new patches etc. open up new possibilities that one maybe didn't think of before. I've also learned much just by watching some pugs play or listening to casual PvE'ers on teamspeak.
And also, successful premades with only few challenges left do have the tendency to become somewhat stagnant and complacent, which makes them vulnerable and prone to get beaten at some point. Happened to TSI, Pandas, TRH, and Inner Circle.
Skill, skill, skill, practise, practise, practise
I think a lot of folks underestimate the underlying complexity of the game and that leads them to underestimate the sheer amount of potential strategies/tactics that one can undertake; while those that understand this can do things some consider magic...and...would likely call hax!
One can complain about the game being too casual, without taking away from the sheer complexity that exists in the game...