Mirror Hoshi, she was the classic Lady Macbeth character in the way she manipulated her way to the top
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
More antagonist than villain, I like both Borg queens (Krige and Thompson), Seska, Tolian Soran, Tiny Ron's and Tony Todd's Hirogen Alphas, the Dukat/Weyoun/Damar trio (for their banter alone), and the one brief showing by Kaitlin Hopkins as the Vorta Kilana.
I'm not a fan of Q or Lore. I always thought their characters were poorly written and poorly developed. I hate the Dominion Founder Changeling, but that's a testament to Salome Jens putting on a good performance.
??? Confused as I made that quite clear that it all happened 6 months later.
right, but Kirk and crew didn't know it happened. why didn't they do X, Y, or Z? Plot... but also because Khan was being exiled and left to fend for himself.
I did mention that the Hobus star going super nova was not the fault of Spock or the Federation. Spock (and by default the Federation) attempted to save Romulus and Remus from destruction. Any rational person should clearly be able to see that. However, as you mentioned it was Nero's grief that basically caused him to lash out at Spock (and the Federation) because he promised to help, but ultimately failed.
That is why I stated. "No good deed goes unpunished".
oh yeah.... it also goes to show how utterly stupid Hollywood movies can be.
People IRL have done worse..... so it's not something you can say is a failing of the writers. That part of his character is actually realistic. People do all sorts of crazy stuff, why? well.... it's called crazy for a reason.
Michael Eddington - The true thorn in Sisko's side for about a season or so roughly in DS9, he caused more problems than even the Cardassians did. He loved Les Miserables, and was quite the romantic at heart as such, considering Sisko to have become 'Javert'.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Tribbles! What else could keep Star Fleet at bay, and not want to attack them, without even being harmful they can devastate any location they inhabit. PLus they drive Klingons crazy, to the point they where considered priority enemy's of the empire.
Tribbles! What else could keep Star Fleet at bay, and not want to attack them, without even being harmful they can devastate any location they inhabit. PLus they drive Klingons crazy, to the point they where considered priority enemy's of the empire.
"Tell me, do the Klingons still sing songs about the glorious Tribble conquest?"-Odo.
People IRL have done worse..... so it's not something you can say is a failing of the writers. That part of his character is actually realistic. People do all sorts of crazy stuff, why? well.... it's called crazy for a reason.
I am not saying that the writers wrote a scene that was out of character for Spock.
My issue is why the f*** does he need to manufacture & bring so much red matter if only a drop was necessary to create a black hole?
How about Admrial Nechave? She was Picard's worst enemy.
... What? Leaving aside the "you're confusing her with the Borg" issue, Alynna Nechayeva was perfectly within her rights to remind Picard that his job description includes the military defense of Federation citizens against armed aggression, i.e. the only interaction with other species that the Borg Collective is capable of.
"Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not wrestle with your conscience." Words to live by, captains. You can waste time moralizing after you do your damn job, because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Michael Eddington - The true thorn in Sisko's side for about a season or so roughly in DS9, he caused more problems than even the Cardassians did. He loved Les Miserables, and was quite the romantic at heart as such, considering Sisko to have become 'Javert'.
Oh, please. He was a genocidal jerk with delusions of grandeur and "For the Uniform" was a ****ty episode that engaged in character assassination of Sisko just so the writers could make Les Miz references.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Sisko's behavior in the pale moonlight was not exactly above board, he lied, he conned the Romulans into a war.
He even let Garak get away with murder
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Sisko's behavior in the pale moonlight was not exactly above board, he lied, he conned the Romulans into a war.
He even let Garak get away with murder
That made him the hero though not a villain.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's still ethically and morally wrong what Sisko did in my book, that was behavior unbecoming of a starfleet officer
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It's still ethically and morally wrong what Sisko did in my book, that was behavior unbecoming of a starfleet officer
What is? Saving the Alpha and Beta Quadrants?
That's the point of Starfleet Officers.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's still ethically and morally wrong what Sisko did in my book, that was behavior unbecoming of a starfleet officer
Yes, on a black-and-white moral level and considered in isolation, it was wrong, and Sisko even admitted as much. But the context was not a black-and-white situation, nor can Sisko's actions be taken in isolation.
The Federation and Klingons were in a stalemate with the Dominion at that point, one which favored the Dominion in the long run because they can replace their troops much faster (since the Jem'Hadar are cloned, not born). And the Dominion had proven in the past on multiple occasions what they were willing to do to cement their dominance and in particular had admitted to an intent to glass Earth preemptively (not even in response to a rebellion, underline, but to prevent one from ever happening).
And then we have Sisko, a man who had on numerous occasions demonstrated he could make the pragmatic decision when the situation called for it. He frequently disliked what he had to do, but he recognized its necessity. Bringing the Romulans into the war was at that point necessary to overcome the Dominion's long-term numerical advantages and open a second front, a la the Italy and Normandy invasions.
Sacrificing two lives now (not counting Vreenak's shuttle crew and bodyguards; make that maybe ten people, tops) to save billions of lives down the road is exactly the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" concept that has been part and parcel of Star Trek from the very beginning, and was perfectly in line with his character.
In short, Sisko violated a lower principle of the Federation to preserve one of its very highest, which is commendable.
Contrast "For the Uniform", which was just Sisko letting Eddington get his goat and making the situation personal. So what if he insulted you and the service and wrecked your precious starship? Take it like a man, dammit; don't stoop to a war criminal's level.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Even though Sisko's behavior helped swing the balance of the dominion war, that is the blood of thousands of dead romulans on his hands
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Even though Sisko's behavior helped swing the balance of the dominion war, that is the blood of thousands of dead romulans on his hands
This is correct. Regardless of the 'greater good', Sisko was willing to sacrifice the lives of another faction/government for his own personal gain. Romulans died in the Dominion War for an unjust cause.
Even though Sisko's behavior helped swing the balance of the dominion war, that is the blood of thousands of dead romulans on his hands
Possibly, who's to say the Dominion wouldn't have turned on the Romulans after they won the war? They were a significant threat, why would the Dominion just leave them be?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Possibly, who's to say the Dominion wouldn't have turned on the Romulans after they won the war? They were a significant threat, why would the Dominion just leave them be?
Pulling people into wars over what 'could' happen is still generally considered to be bad diplomacy. Using 'what if' scenarios to spark wars is still considered shady and underhanded.
Even if they did, that was still the Romulans' problem to deal with, not Sisko's. The Federation isn't the galaxy police.
Pulling people into wars over what 'could' happen is still generally considered to be bad diplomacy. Using 'what if' scenarios to spark wars is still considered shady and underhanded.
Even if they did, that was still the Romulans' problem to deal with, not Sisko's. The Federation isn't the galaxy police.
No, we don't know for certain what would happen. That's the same argument as the "we can't save these people because they might become galactic conquerors later" BS that gets bandied about with the Prime Directive. But we can make predictions based on known facts. Would you be willing to bet that
A) the Dominion would continue to honor their treaty with the Romulans once the Klingons and Feds capitulated/were wiped out? Given the Founders' demonstrated complete and utter disdain for solids and determination to subjugate them, the probable answer is "no". Assuming "no", would you then be willing to bet that
the Romulans could successfully defend themselves without the other two superpowers helping? Considering that the Dominion had stalemated the Federation and the Klingons simultaneously without Kar'ukan's ships (the fleet the Prophets made go away in "Sacrifice of Angels"), the probable answer is, again, "no". It then follows that the Dominion would treat them the way they treat other conquered peoples, which isn't to hand out flowers if you get my drift.
Yes, it was a dirty, underhanded trick that cost the lives of thousands of Romulan soldiers. But how many Romulan lives did it likely save?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
No, we don't know for certain what would happen. That's the same argument as the "we can't save these people because they might become galactic conquerors later" BS that gets bandied about with Prime Directive. But we can make predictions based on known facts. Would you be willing to bet that
A) the Dominion would continue to honor their treaty with the Romulans once the Klingons and Feds capitulated/were wiped out? Given the Founders' demonstrated complete and utter disdain for solids and determination to subjugate them, the probable answer is "no". Assuming "no", would you then be willing to bet that
the Romulans could successfully defend themselves without the other two superpowers helping? Considering that the Dominion had stalemated the Federation and the Klingons simultaneously without Kar'ukan's ships (the fleet the Prophets made go away in "Sacrifice of Angels"), the probable answer is, again, "no". It then follows that the Dominion would treat them the way they treat other conquered peoples, which isn't to hand out flowers if you get my drift.
Yes, it was a dirty, underhanded trick that cost the lives of thousands of Romulan soldiers. But how many Romulan lives did it likely save?
We don't know for certain what would happen, but seeing as how it's a fictional medium we can safely say that if the story called for it, the Romulans could have created a Deus Ex Machina device that allows them to prevent the Dominion from winning against them. Sisko said that the RSE would have been 'surrounded', but seeing as how Starfleet has little to no diplomatic contact with the Romulans, he is going off of it based on Starfleet's perspective. It is unknowable just how prepared the RSE was when it came to fighting the Dominion. That is the danger of having one foreign power make suppositions on another.
So many things would have altered in that history (with the Federation and KDF getting taken out) that would have led to an outcome that could certainly put power in the Romulan Star Empire's hands as to allow them to become the 'last hope' against the Dominion.
It does not matter how many theoretical lives could have been saved when the reality is thousands were definatively lost.
A government lying to its own people, or lying to another country's people in order to fabricate grounds for war is the highest form of treachery. If this was so morally justified, then Sisko wouldn't have been beating himself up mentally over it. If this was so morally justified, then all of this shadiness would not have had to have been kept secret.
It's one of the best episodes of DS9 because it showed Sisko was willing to carry the burden on his shoulders, he was willing to be evil and make peace with it.
He was driven to it out of desperation, not because he had a clear mind over the issue. We're supposed to sympathize with him over that.
It's not unlike the sinking of the Maine, where the U.S. used it to drum of propaganda and domestic support for a war against Spain -- even though we never knew for a fact Spain was responsible for it, and it was just as likely it was an accident rather than intentional sabotage.
Being dragged into a brutal war over false reasons is reprehensible. We should never say it is morally justified, whether in a fictional TV show or not. The truth will always set you free.
Roosevelt could have declared war on Japan and the Axis powers at any time prior to Pearl Harbor. He sent supplies and other aid to the Allied forces, sure. But he was unwilling to take direct military action even though he was urged to do so multiple times.
He was not willing to take a pre-emptive strike on Japan even though political tensions were high. He took the moral high ground by saying he would not commit to military action unless Japan made the first overt aggression.
We had to suffer Pearl Harbor because of it, but it was that action that spurred us to fight even harder. As Isoroku Yamamoto put it, all they did at Pearl Harbor was "Wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."
And no shady or underhanded tactics were needed to prod the U.S. into joining the war. Just Japan's blatant and vulgar aggression, combined with their formal declaration of war that was delivered after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Sisko never had the moral high ground when it came to the Romulans joining the war.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd! He was Kirk's "Q"... much more believable and entertaining that "Q", anyday! A Rogue and Pirate...
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
Comments
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'm not a fan of Q or Lore. I always thought their characters were poorly written and poorly developed. I hate the Dominion Founder Changeling, but that's a testament to Salome Jens putting on a good performance.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Anyone blackhearted enough to do that would have made an incredible Star Trek villain.
Michael Eddington - The true thorn in Sisko's side for about a season or so roughly in DS9, he caused more problems than even the Cardassians did. He loved Les Miserables, and was quite the romantic at heart as such, considering Sisko to have become 'Javert'.
"Tell me, do the Klingons still sing songs about the glorious Tribble conquest?"-Odo.
I am not saying that the writers wrote a scene that was out of character for Spock.
My issue is why the f*** does he need to manufacture & bring so much red matter if only a drop was necessary to create a black hole?
^ Winner of the Thread. It's over. Everyone might as well pack up and go home.
"Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not wrestle with your conscience." Words to live by, captains. You can waste time moralizing after you do your damn job, because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Oh, please. He was a genocidal jerk with delusions of grandeur and "For the Uniform" was a ****ty episode that engaged in character assassination of Sisko just so the writers could make Les Miz references.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
He even let Garak get away with murder
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
That made him the hero though not a villain.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
It's still ethically and morally wrong what Sisko did in my book, that was behavior unbecoming of a starfleet officer
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
What is? Saving the Alpha and Beta Quadrants?
That's the point of Starfleet Officers.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes, on a black-and-white moral level and considered in isolation, it was wrong, and Sisko even admitted as much. But the context was not a black-and-white situation, nor can Sisko's actions be taken in isolation.
The Federation and Klingons were in a stalemate with the Dominion at that point, one which favored the Dominion in the long run because they can replace their troops much faster (since the Jem'Hadar are cloned, not born). And the Dominion had proven in the past on multiple occasions what they were willing to do to cement their dominance and in particular had admitted to an intent to glass Earth preemptively (not even in response to a rebellion, underline, but to prevent one from ever happening).
And then we have Sisko, a man who had on numerous occasions demonstrated he could make the pragmatic decision when the situation called for it. He frequently disliked what he had to do, but he recognized its necessity. Bringing the Romulans into the war was at that point necessary to overcome the Dominion's long-term numerical advantages and open a second front, a la the Italy and Normandy invasions.
Sacrificing two lives now (not counting Vreenak's shuttle crew and bodyguards; make that maybe ten people, tops) to save billions of lives down the road is exactly the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" concept that has been part and parcel of Star Trek from the very beginning, and was perfectly in line with his character.
In short, Sisko violated a lower principle of the Federation to preserve one of its very highest, which is commendable.
Contrast "For the Uniform", which was just Sisko letting Eddington get his goat and making the situation personal. So what if he insulted you and the service and wrecked your precious starship? Take it like a man, dammit; don't stoop to a war criminal's level.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Even though Sisko's behavior helped swing the balance of the dominion war, that is the blood of thousands of dead romulans on his hands
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
This is correct. Regardless of the 'greater good', Sisko was willing to sacrifice the lives of another faction/government for his own personal gain. Romulans died in the Dominion War for an unjust cause.
Possibly, who's to say the Dominion wouldn't have turned on the Romulans after they won the war? They were a significant threat, why would the Dominion just leave them be?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Pulling people into wars over what 'could' happen is still generally considered to be bad diplomacy. Using 'what if' scenarios to spark wars is still considered shady and underhanded.
Even if they did, that was still the Romulans' problem to deal with, not Sisko's. The Federation isn't the galaxy police.
A) the Dominion would continue to honor their treaty with the Romulans once the Klingons and Feds capitulated/were wiped out? Given the Founders' demonstrated complete and utter disdain for solids and determination to subjugate them, the probable answer is "no". Assuming "no", would you then be willing to bet that
Yes, it was a dirty, underhanded trick that cost the lives of thousands of Romulan soldiers. But how many Romulan lives did it likely save?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
We don't know for certain what would happen, but seeing as how it's a fictional medium we can safely say that if the story called for it, the Romulans could have created a Deus Ex Machina device that allows them to prevent the Dominion from winning against them. Sisko said that the RSE would have been 'surrounded', but seeing as how Starfleet has little to no diplomatic contact with the Romulans, he is going off of it based on Starfleet's perspective. It is unknowable just how prepared the RSE was when it came to fighting the Dominion. That is the danger of having one foreign power make suppositions on another.
So many things would have altered in that history (with the Federation and KDF getting taken out) that would have led to an outcome that could certainly put power in the Romulan Star Empire's hands as to allow them to become the 'last hope' against the Dominion.
It does not matter how many theoretical lives could have been saved when the reality is thousands were definatively lost.
A government lying to its own people, or lying to another country's people in order to fabricate grounds for war is the highest form of treachery. If this was so morally justified, then Sisko wouldn't have been beating himself up mentally over it. If this was so morally justified, then all of this shadiness would not have had to have been kept secret.
It's one of the best episodes of DS9 because it showed Sisko was willing to carry the burden on his shoulders, he was willing to be evil and make peace with it.
He was driven to it out of desperation, not because he had a clear mind over the issue. We're supposed to sympathize with him over that.
It's not unlike the sinking of the Maine, where the U.S. used it to drum of propaganda and domestic support for a war against Spain -- even though we never knew for a fact Spain was responsible for it, and it was just as likely it was an accident rather than intentional sabotage.
Being dragged into a brutal war over false reasons is reprehensible. We should never say it is morally justified, whether in a fictional TV show or not. The truth will always set you free.
Roosevelt could have declared war on Japan and the Axis powers at any time prior to Pearl Harbor. He sent supplies and other aid to the Allied forces, sure. But he was unwilling to take direct military action even though he was urged to do so multiple times.
He was not willing to take a pre-emptive strike on Japan even though political tensions were high. He took the moral high ground by saying he would not commit to military action unless Japan made the first overt aggression.
We had to suffer Pearl Harbor because of it, but it was that action that spurred us to fight even harder. As Isoroku Yamamoto put it, all they did at Pearl Harbor was "Wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."
And no shady or underhanded tactics were needed to prod the U.S. into joining the war. Just Japan's blatant and vulgar aggression, combined with their formal declaration of war that was delivered after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Sisko never had the moral high ground when it came to the Romulans joining the war.