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Canon: Is romulan cloak really superior to Klingon?
revandarklighter
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
It seems to be common believe that the Romulan cloak is superior to the Klingon one.
Star Trek onlines devs clearly believe that. Other games handled it that way before. Also a lot of people just state that as a simply obviously given fact.
But, the way I see that... this in not only NOT supported by canon, canon indicates pretty much the opposite.
For clarification: By canon I mean canon. Not what people want to be canon. Canon is what has been on screen.
So the "source" of that believe seems to be that "Romulans had cloak first".
About that: I might agree that Enterprise supports/suggests that, but thats basically it. Because the infamous alliance between the Klingons and the Romulans including the "trade" of weapon/ship technology for cloak technology might be a very reasonable assumption of canon facts but its not canon.
Be is as it is lets assume Romulans had cloak first.
There are 100 years between TOS and TNG. In the real world there are certainly a million examples for this that one country or company developed first and another one has it in a far better version later. So thats not an argument, its an indication at best.
Even in Star Trek isstelf the federation - who don't use cloak - had a working phase cloak a decade before the romulans experimented with that kind of technology.
So lets do some comparison.
I can only remember ONE occasion where a klingon cloak has been broken. Which is obviously Star trek 6.
Romulan cloak? That sucked pretty much every time it appeared.
The Romulan Warbird following the Enterprise in TNG to that "gonthu" thing, don't remember the episode title "because they used to much energy at high warp".
Data decloaked a whole Romulan fleet during that Klingon civil war.
The already mentioned phase cloak experiment went very very bad.. (ok Klingons didn't do such experiments onscreen in the first place..)
The Defaint (equipped with a ROMULAN cloak) was about... how long? 3 minutes in the Gamma quadrant when the Jem'Hadar said "found em".
The Romulan warbird stalking DS9 and who's singularity core made O'Brien time jump (again, don't remember the episode title) was discovered too.
Prety much every time the cloak had story relevance it was found.
Also functionality: The Defaint could not use the transporter without dropping cloak. I think in "Face of the enemy" mentioned Warbirds could not beam without dropping cloak.
Klingon ships?
Kirks BoP on earth could transport with active cloak perfectly well.
And to troll the romulans, in "unification" a Klingon bird of prey parked in Romulus orbit (you know, the absolute core world of that people that are supposed gods of cloaks) and beamed Data, Spock and Picard up und down on such a regular base that they probably beamed up just to get some drink from the fridge, without being discovered.
So that point seems to go to the Klingons too.
Watching at this.... i find the assumption Romulans would be better clockers kind of ridiculous.
Not saying that Klingon cloak is definitely superior, for a definite comparison we would need to see them in the same situations, but inferior? No.
So what is really the base for that assumption?
Star Trek onlines devs clearly believe that. Other games handled it that way before. Also a lot of people just state that as a simply obviously given fact.
But, the way I see that... this in not only NOT supported by canon, canon indicates pretty much the opposite.
For clarification: By canon I mean canon. Not what people want to be canon. Canon is what has been on screen.
So the "source" of that believe seems to be that "Romulans had cloak first".
About that: I might agree that Enterprise supports/suggests that, but thats basically it. Because the infamous alliance between the Klingons and the Romulans including the "trade" of weapon/ship technology for cloak technology might be a very reasonable assumption of canon facts but its not canon.
Be is as it is lets assume Romulans had cloak first.
There are 100 years between TOS and TNG. In the real world there are certainly a million examples for this that one country or company developed first and another one has it in a far better version later. So thats not an argument, its an indication at best.
Even in Star Trek isstelf the federation - who don't use cloak - had a working phase cloak a decade before the romulans experimented with that kind of technology.
So lets do some comparison.
I can only remember ONE occasion where a klingon cloak has been broken. Which is obviously Star trek 6.
Romulan cloak? That sucked pretty much every time it appeared.
The Romulan Warbird following the Enterprise in TNG to that "gonthu" thing, don't remember the episode title "because they used to much energy at high warp".
Data decloaked a whole Romulan fleet during that Klingon civil war.
The already mentioned phase cloak experiment went very very bad.. (ok Klingons didn't do such experiments onscreen in the first place..)
The Defaint (equipped with a ROMULAN cloak) was about... how long? 3 minutes in the Gamma quadrant when the Jem'Hadar said "found em".
The Romulan warbird stalking DS9 and who's singularity core made O'Brien time jump (again, don't remember the episode title) was discovered too.
Prety much every time the cloak had story relevance it was found.
Also functionality: The Defaint could not use the transporter without dropping cloak. I think in "Face of the enemy" mentioned Warbirds could not beam without dropping cloak.
Klingon ships?
Kirks BoP on earth could transport with active cloak perfectly well.
And to troll the romulans, in "unification" a Klingon bird of prey parked in Romulus orbit (you know, the absolute core world of that people that are supposed gods of cloaks) and beamed Data, Spock and Picard up und down on such a regular base that they probably beamed up just to get some drink from the fridge, without being discovered.
So that point seems to go to the Klingons too.
Watching at this.... i find the assumption Romulans would be better clockers kind of ridiculous.
Not saying that Klingon cloak is definitely superior, for a definite comparison we would need to see them in the same situations, but inferior? No.
So what is really the base for that assumption?
Post edited by revandarklighter on
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That was more because the Dominion was more advanced than everyone else at this point. Remember, everybody's shields were useless against the Dominion at that same point.
That was only because O'Brien saw the warbird attack in the future and told them where to look...
Other than that, good points.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Its shields are still up while cloaked.
It can still fire while cloaked.
Geordi LaForge says it has a perfect cloak.
All of these things are on-screen, and therefore canon.
None of the KDF ships have demonstrated the ability to do all of these things at once, nor have any characters specifically mentioned that any KDF ship has a perfect cloak.
Since logic and 'canon' is whatever the writers of Star Trek says it is -- then by having LaForge specifically state it's a 'perfect' cloak, then canonically speaking... it is perfect.
And that was my 2,000th post.
So what you're saying is the Remans' cloaking technology is superior to either the Klingons' or the Romulans'. :cool:
If you want to count the Remans as a separate faction. But on-screen it's pretty clear they're owned entirely by the Romulans, including their technology.
Which was something of an important plot point in the movie, I think.
I thought the Remans had (completely implausibly) designed and built the Scimitar on their own. I'm certainly not going to re-watch the film to check.
Why are you making me defend this piece of garbage film? Why!?
Yes, they designed and built the Scimitar on their own. But the film says in no uncertain terms they're a slave caste. Shock troops. Cannon fodder.
I'd argue that the creation of slave labor belongs to their owner, and not the slave.
I could really be nitpicky and point out Mr. Plinkett's glorious review (NSFW) of Nemesis and say the control panels on the Scimitar weren't made for monster reman hands considering how small the buttons are. But I'm already feeling dirty for bringing this stupid film into the discussion simply because it's canon.
actually that link seems to refer to "planc" detection.. Good luck with that, measuring the "linear" versus "non-linear" time streams over an area (as best defined) is still well beyond true human comprehension much less execution...
As for the OP.. Romulans originated the cloaks that were "obtained" by the KDF during TOS era, the KDF though known for armoring things very well is lackluster when it comes to engineering.. When your whole society has the suicidal urge to "die a good death" staying back and tinkering isnt as encouraged.. Thus the primary plot flaw with the KDF as a still existing much less separate faction.. A merged Fed/KDF group would have slaughtered the duplicitous IRW/Tal Shiar decades ago... But noooo we have to be "good guys" and stupid ones at that...
So in the end yes the sneaky romulans with their illegal weapons have the better cloaks.. Not that those cloaks are any more than one greedy ferengi away from being in any and every other factions hands at any time.
Let's count that as a half-point against the Romulans.
Detected Romulans: 0.5
Detected Klingons: 0
Detected Romulans: 1.5
Detected Klingons: 0
Romulans and Klingons both used D7s...let's count this one against both of them.
Detected Romulans: 2.5
Detected Klingons: 1
Detected Romulans: 2.5
Detected Klingons: 2
Let's assume this worked.
Detected Romulans: 3.5
Detected Klingons: 2
Used to detect both Romulan ships as well as Dukat's Bird of Prey.
Detected Romulans: 4.5
Detected Klingons: 3
Shown to affect only Romulan cloaking devices.
Detected Romulans: 5.5
Detected Klingons: 3
Detected Romulans: 6.5
Detected Klingons: 3
Detected Romulans: 6.5
Detected Klingons: 4
The long-range tachyon scanner was used to detect Klingons. The antiproton beam was successful against the Defiant's Romulan cloaking device (once, anyway).
Detected Romulans: 7.5
Detected Klingons: 5
It seems that when it comes to imperfections in the cloak, the Klingons have a bit of an edge...but it's not exactly the blowout the OP suggests.
It was kept a secret from the senate, but it's never explicitly said it was exclusively a Reman product. We do see that Shinzon had at least some high level Romulan co-conspirators, and with all the power games we see in the RSE it's entirely plausible that a great many Romulans would be willing to hand the top chair to a Reman if it meant elevating their own position enough. He could have had extensive allies in the Romulan military and government.
For that matter, for the transition of power we see, he probably needed a lot of those allies. Even with the Scimitar, the Remans would have little hope of overthrowing the empire in a civil war, just killing the senate and taking over a building wouldn't do the trick if the military refuses to recognize your government. If he didn't have allies in enough places to either seize extensive control or disrupt a counterattack, the civil war would have already broken out by the time the Enterprise arrived.
If you're referring to the "longscan" part at the end, that's a very small subset of the discussion. There was far more discussion of heat sources and "planc" was never mentioned once.
The Klingons have been at peace with the Federation for much of Star Trek and thus there are fewer episodes where the heroes attempt to penetrate a Klingon cloak.
The Romulans have always been hostile to the Federation and are the "cloaking device aliens", so the heroes have to frequently find ways to counter their cloaks.
That's not evidence. That's just conflict resolution.
And yes, the Scimitar puts this argument to bed.
Also: evading 31st century technology even a little is worth half a point?
I agree with your statement, but not that I was "missing the point."
The OP's intent was to stick only to established canonical fact; I tried to adhere to that standard.
An extension of your logic might be that Nemesis was the final on-screen appearance of the Prime Universe, so who's to say that (A) the Klingons didn't develop a cloak equivalent or superior to the Scimitar's, or (B) a means of beating the Scimitar's cloak wouldn't have been found?
No further episodes of Star Trek were produced, and thus there are fewer episodes where the heroes attempt to beat that cloaking device.
That's the main flaw with the "Only on-screen evidence counts!" prerequisite.
Since if Nemesis is the final on-screen appearance of the Prime Universe, then all previous technology would be considered obsolete.
Like comparing a Ford Model-T to a modern day vehicle.
We can speculate to our hearts content, but if we're going to be bound by the "Canon only!" rule, then no speculation is allowed.
Again, I agree. Just trying to play by the OP's rules.
You apparently don't understand my logic. There are more episodes where Romulan cloaking devices are a problem to be overcome than there are episodes where Klingon cloaking devices are a problem to be overcome. It's an unfair standard. It's like saying the Enterprise is the worst ship in the fleet, because it's nearly destroyed every week.
The rest of your point is just making up random stuff, and I don't see how that's an extension of anyone's logic.
The OP wasn't saying Klingon cloaking technology was overwhelmingly superior.
He was saying that the assumption that Romulan cloaks were so clear cut and superior is false, given what is shown onscreen.
As for the Scimitar... I think that is a one time deal, unique to that ship. Subsequent Warbirds did not field such technology. Not even the brandspanking--new Warbirds Donatra brings in to save the Enterprise had that tech.
And the Klingons had a bird of prey that could fire while cloaked, but we did not see any subsequent technology of that sort fielded by the Klingons.
"One time deal" or not, it is canon. Which speaks as much to the fundamentally flawed argument prerequisites to begin with as it does to the point that you could say every time something is cloaked or detected while cloaked is a "One time deal", since cloaking devices are only as powerful or weak as the episode/movie requires them to be.
It's absurd to think that the on-screen appearances reflect all instances of cloaks being detected.
It's absurd to think that all cloaks seen in the series are equal, and that each faction wouldn't possess a variety of models of various ages and quality.
It's absurd to think that the Scimitar's cloak is completely undetectable, simply because the Enterprise crew couldn't figure it out within the few days they had.
I thought it was just for funsies...:rolleyes:
Star Trek arguments are serious business.
Still they didn't seem to be able to detect the rotarran during the war....
I wouldnt "really" count the the d7 from prophecy, I mean that was aged by almost a century at this point. After all, adapting to the cloak and adapting the cloak to the adoption is kind of a permanent process with that kind of technology. But technically its a detected klingon ship I admit.
I also forgot about fleet in way of the warrior. I could argue that its naturally harder to hide a third of the entire klingon defense force in one place then a few singular ships, or even a single one... but similar arguments can be made for the romulans in other places. Detected is detected after all.
In favor of the romulans comparisons based of the ent era do not fit well. Of course their cloak was not broken in that time.... they didn't have any yet.
Also there is still that argument with the transporter that worked perfectly well on cloaked klingon ships while romulans had to decloak.
And they couldn't detect the Defiant during the war either.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
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A fun thought about that:
I don't remember the exact wording in the original engllish version. But in the german version of Star Trek 6 they acted pretty surprised and said something like "But the bird of prey class can not fire while cloaked".
By stating explicitly that THE BIRD OF PREY CLASS couldn't fire while cloaked I always thought: If they have to put that out to THAT CLASS in particular... may be other ships actually can regularly fire under cloak already...
Just a thought.
After all the (i believe non canon given) reason for not being able to fire under cloak is that the cloak needs to much energy . A much larger ship (scimitar... whatever they had beside the K'Tinga in the TOS time) might produce enough energy for weapons and cloak.
Thats mostly because the Defaint didn't use the cloak... A fact ppl kind of seem to miss is that it was destroyed and not replaced during the retake of ds9 very early in the war.
Actually, at the battle for DS9, the Defiant escapes the Dominion Fleet by cloaking. It's also inferred on-screen that the Defiant used her cloak to destroy a Dominion listening post early in Season Six (inferred on-screen, note).
Also, at numerous stages after The Search, the Defiant used her cloak and remained undetected by the Dominion.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
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colored text = mod mode
How many times during the series is a Federation cloak detected? Once?
I'll bet it's less than the Romulans and Klingons. Therefore, the Federation canonically has the best cloaking technology if we "adhere to the OP's rules" or whatever that guy said.
The Defiant was destroyed very late in the last season of DS9. There were only five episodes of the series left when the Breen got it. The replacement didn't have a cloak, though, that is true.
oops... wrong cloak.
I find it hard to decide which is better in canon. Then again, I only care if the device does its job which both clearly do. I'd say the Romulans may have a slightly better cloak because of the power source they use for their ships, though.
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
The Defiant had a Romulan cloaking device, on loan from the RSE due to the Dominion threat. The Federation aren't allowed to develop their own cloaking devices under the Treaty of Algeron.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood