I didnt read it all but i can speak for me and my partner when i say that we do not like when we have spent liek months if not a year of work into a game to actually be up to date on gear and then teh gaming company decides to release something that we have again to grind for for ages....
its like you lure a dog with a sausage and once he is able to get his tounge-tip close to it you pull it farther away from him..making him run again...
I didnt read it all but i can speak for me and my partner when i say that we do not like when we have spent liek months if not a year of work into a game to actually be up to date on gear and then teh gaming company decides to release something that we have again to grind for for ages....
its like you lure a dog with a sausage and once he is able to get his tounge-tip close to it you pull it farther away from him..making him run again...
(( this includes nerfing ))
Throw a rock at a gaming company and this happens.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
i think ALOT of MMO's need to watch some of those vids especially the F2P crowd am also surprised id never actually seen this one thanks for the link.
No prob. Honestly a lot of those vids done by those guys are amazing. And slightly funny to watch whille getting great information.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
One major flaw with this logic, is if in fact a good majority of the veteran player base sees this, as too favorable for new player's, and not allowing for much or any room to separate them, it can also lead to a large decline of veteran player's, and a good majority if not all veteran player's spend or have spent loads of money.
Veteran player's want to be on top with all the work they put into this game, and to easily allow new player's to sit in the same seat as them with practically no work involved, can turn away a large amount of player's.
The flip side of this is when power creep gets out of control and the game becomes completely inaccessible. iv seen games where its gotten so bad that the grind would take so long it could take 3 years to get on the same level as other players. NO ONE will pvp in such a game and end game pve will either be impossible for new players (which drives them away) or too easy for veterans (making them lose interest).
Adding another 5 levels to a game and a new set of gear seems to be the go to move for keeping MMO's alive. but imo content, storys and unique and interesting game mechanics that require skill to overcome can be just as effective and more enjoyable then simply raising a few numbers.
Sure its an RPG of course it should have goals and interesting things / items / ships to reach for. but at the same time no one wants to play "Grind Simulator 2014" either.
As a 4 year life-timer, I don't agree with the above. What vet actually enjoy curb-stomping newer players while using the best gear / ships / skills when there is no challenge nor honor in it?
And it's fun to as you put it, to "curb-stomp" a elite stf in the time it takes to make a bag of popcorn?
The flip side of this is when power creep gets out of control and the game becomes completely inaccessible. iv seen games where its gotten so bad that the grind would take so long it could take 3 years to get on the same level as other players. NO ONE will pvp in such a game and end game pve will either be impossible for new players (which drives them away) or too easy for veterans (making them lose interest)..
Check out Eve Online and that game is not going anywhere. I think people would BUT the content of the game has to be good and well made. From entry level content to extreme end-level content among other things.
power advancement should be a diagonal grade, horizontal should be more like changing how you do something, not being more powerful.
Creeps not advancement, its just gaining power and abilities at the same level. Advancement comes with challenge at the level you've manged too get too, were as creep just invalidates everything you could currently do by simple making too easy, and giving you so many gimmicks and tools that its a cake walk, thus no challenge or content geared to handle people at that level.
PvP is bad too bring into the equation in either system because if you run into a end game, or max creep, vet player and your new its likely to be like running into a brick wall, but that's ture of any system that allows for continues player power growth past max level be it via equipment, abilities, or additional traits, perks and skills. even on a level playing field someone with vastly more experience is likely too flatten someone without it.
This is a good observation. I think Cryptic might be trying to address this with harder content. The issue seems to be that players are looking at effort/reward and are doing the easier content instead. This happened a lot with the Mirror event. You can see a different element of the issue with The Hive too, queues for that take significantly longer than other ESTF queues. All cryptic can do is create harder content, but people are still likely going to do the content with the highest return on time invested. The only other solution is to make rewards relative to the effort it takes to do the mission. There would be screams heard all around the world if they nerfed ISE or KASE....
There's already the difficulty settings you can set.
There's already the Normal and "Elite" (and I say that term loosely for STO) STF-like instances.
Exactly how many different levels of difficulty can someone make for a single game, much less an MMO?
This is the only MMO I've played where there's a Difficulty setting. This is the only MMO I've played where the content is literally a joke, even with titles allowing high-end, endgame gear.
Because if Cryptic does not reign in Power Creep, the first step being the Reputation System Traits, the game always will be a joke.
Cryptic for years had been selling Power Creep. Always had, and they still are (hello Patrol Escort Refit). Only very, very recently that maybe, just maybe they realized they've painted themselves in a corner. The developers did a monumentously, MMO-genre bendingly bad job in maintaining their own game balance. I've seen imbalances and Power Creep before, but other game developers took great effort in trying to keep things under check.
Not so with STO over the years.
Cryptic kept on giving out the Power Creep. DOFF system, which in itself is game breaking, Reputation Traits, Reputation Equipment, Lobi / Lockbox Ships of increasing power. We are at a point now that even the potent JHAS has lost some of its luster because there are other just as good ships out there in OP'ness. There's a new faction now that practically its entire ship lineup is OP. On and on. And Cryptic never bothered to look at how a new addition affected a game. Every Season, there's some game breaking DOFF. Every Season there's some game breaking ship. Every Season there's something game breaking, period (hello Undine ships, etc).
With so much Power Creep having been granted, and STILL being granted, with no checks and balances, nothing, and there is absolutely nothing Cryptic can do to make content that provides even some form of moderate challenge.
Edit to add: One of the hardest ESTFs from before was CSE. It used to take coordination, communication, and lane discipline, and acute awareness by the entire team to beat CSE. You can do this now in less than a handful of minutes. A Scimitar that's well played can go to any of the 3 wings and take out the content by itself. Avengers, Moghs can do the same thing but not in the same efficiency as the Scimitar.
It's a terrible ****ing joke. And people say Power Creep is a good thing? The OP is on crack!
There's already the difficulty settings you can set.
There's already the Normal and "Elite" (and I say that term loosely for STO) STF-like instances.
Exactly how many different levels of difficulty can someone make for a single game, much less an MMO?
This is the only MMO I've played where there's a Difficulty setting. This is the only MMO I've played where the content is literally a joke, even with titles allowing high-end, endgame gear.
Because if Cryptic does not reign in Power Creep, the first step being the Reputation System Traits, the game always will be a joke.
Cryptic for years had been selling Power Creep. Always had, and they still are (hello Patrol Escort Refit). Only very, very recently that maybe, just maybe they realized they've painted themselves in a corner. The developers did a monumentously, MMO-genre bendingly bad job in maintaining their own game balance. I've seen imbalances and Power Creep before, but other game developers took great effort in trying to keep things under check.
Not so with STO over the years.
Cryptic kept on giving out the Power Creep. DOFF system, which in itself is game breaking, Reputation Traits, Reputation Equipment, Lobi / Lockbox Ships of increasing power. We are at a point now that even the potent JHAS has lost some of its luster because there are other just as good ships out there in OP'ness. There's a new faction now that practically its entire ship lineup is OP. On and on. And Cryptic never bothered to look at how a new addition affected a game. Every Season, there's some game breaking DOFF. Every Season there's some game breaking ship. Every Season there's something game breaking, period (hello Undine ships, etc).
With so much Power Creep having been granted, and STILL being granted, with no checks and balances, nothing, and there is absolutely nothing Cryptic can do to make content that provides even some form of moderate challenge.
Actually, they have two options:
1.) Update all content to make it more difficult. (heh he heh, riiiiiiiight)
2.) Make new, more difficult than what we currently have content.
1.) Update all content to make it more difficult. (heh he heh, riiiiiiiight)
2.) Make new, more difficult than what we currently have content.
Which will be immediately rendered obsolete and weak with the unbridled Power Creep.
Then we're back to people complaining about how easy the game is.
And the joke that we call "difficulty" in STO was brought about by... Power Creep. Which only increased over time in the history of STO because nothing was done by Cryptic to try to control it. Only recently with S9 and the Reputation Trait revision was SOMETHING done.
Really guys, how much unbridled Power Creep do you need for this retardedly easy game???
Getting more breadth is functionally the same as getting more depth, no?
Not necessarily, but I get your meaning. The options have to be incomparable. For example, look at this, this, and this. Each one of those weapons is very different, fulfills a different function, and comes with it's own unique advantages and drawbacks. That's how horizontal advancement works.
The problem is, with Team Fortress 2, when you die you respawn in a couple of seconds, and you're free to choose what weapons will be more useful this time around. It's not impossible, but the game would need some changes, particularly dealing with ground combat.
Loadouts would have to behave differently, and you would need access to more weapons. Two isn't enough.
ill say this i used to play another mmo , which had a era of power creep , it got so bad and changed so much that all my gear I setup , ground out and payed for became obsolete .
I left that game ,when it gets to a point of being like a full wipe . having to regrind / pay for all your gear all over is kinda pointless in the state of mind of a veteran player of a game . hence i set coarse for a new game , and it looks like STO is approaching that same crossroads with its power creep.
you really cant have no Power creep in a MMO as you add new gear and ideas, but it can be controlled and weened . , STO is at the stage where they can fix it so the Veterans dont feel that all there work and spending is wasted .
1.) Update all content to make it more difficult. (heh he heh, riiiiiiiight)
2.) Make new, more difficult than what we currently have content.
That'll never happen again, not on a permanent basis anyway. Cryptic has tried to upgrade STO's AI before, most famously in "Hell Week" prior to S7, only to have to roll it back after getting an avalanche of complaints from their noob casual player base that it made the game too hard.
Yep, once again we keep getting back to that inconvenient little truth about STO, and the real reason why power creep has been allowed to go unchecked: Cryptic and PWE cater to the casual player base above all else, and power creep is what casual players want - or at least Cryptic has been trained by experience to believe as much.
That'll never happen again, not on a permanent basis anyway. Cryptic has tried to upgrade STO's AI before, most famously in "Hell Week" prior to S7, only to have to roll it back after getting an avalanche of complaints from their noob casual player base that it made the game too hard.
Yep, once again we keep getting back to that inconvenient little truth about STO, and the real reason why power creep has been allowed to go unchecked: Cryptic and PWE cater to the casual player base above all else, and power creep is what casual players want - or at least Cryptic has been trained by experience to believe as much.
Hell week happened, not because of smart AI, but ridiculous game breaking spike damage that was unavoidable.
We're not saying that STO has horizontal advancement, but that it's better than vertical. It's certainly more sustainable and welcoming to new players.
Comments
its like you lure a dog with a sausage and once he is able to get his tounge-tip close to it you pull it farther away from him..making him run again...
(( this includes nerfing ))
Throw a rock at a gaming company and this happens.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
i think ALOT of MMO's need to watch some of those vids especially the F2P crowd am also surprised id never actually seen this one thanks for the link.
No prob. Honestly a lot of those vids done by those guys are amazing. And slightly funny to watch whille getting great information.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Better endgame content today!!
The flip side of this is when power creep gets out of control and the game becomes completely inaccessible. iv seen games where its gotten so bad that the grind would take so long it could take 3 years to get on the same level as other players. NO ONE will pvp in such a game and end game pve will either be impossible for new players (which drives them away) or too easy for veterans (making them lose interest).
Adding another 5 levels to a game and a new set of gear seems to be the go to move for keeping MMO's alive. but imo content, storys and unique and interesting game mechanics that require skill to overcome can be just as effective and more enjoyable then simply raising a few numbers.
Sure its an RPG of course it should have goals and interesting things / items / ships to reach for. but at the same time no one wants to play "Grind Simulator 2014" either.
And it's fun to as you put it, to "curb-stomp" a elite stf in the time it takes to make a bag of popcorn?
Check out Eve Online and that game is not going anywhere. I think people would BUT the content of the game has to be good and well made. From entry level content to extreme end-level content among other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr3rlT7NfVU
And as far as progression goes, no more power increase, instead: options. Remember the egg drop contest in science class?
Creeps not advancement, its just gaining power and abilities at the same level. Advancement comes with challenge at the level you've manged too get too, were as creep just invalidates everything you could currently do by simple making too easy, and giving you so many gimmicks and tools that its a cake walk, thus no challenge or content geared to handle people at that level.
PvP is bad too bring into the equation in either system because if you run into a end game, or max creep, vet player and your new its likely to be like running into a brick wall, but that's ture of any system that allows for continues player power growth past max level be it via equipment, abilities, or additional traits, perks and skills. even on a level playing field someone with vastly more experience is likely too flatten someone without it.
There's already the difficulty settings you can set.
There's already the Normal and "Elite" (and I say that term loosely for STO) STF-like instances.
Exactly how many different levels of difficulty can someone make for a single game, much less an MMO?
This is the only MMO I've played where there's a Difficulty setting. This is the only MMO I've played where the content is literally a joke, even with titles allowing high-end, endgame gear.
What's next? "Super-Elite-Non-Newbie-Friendly-Nightmare-Mode?"
Because if Cryptic does not reign in Power Creep, the first step being the Reputation System Traits, the game always will be a joke.
Cryptic for years had been selling Power Creep. Always had, and they still are (hello Patrol Escort Refit). Only very, very recently that maybe, just maybe they realized they've painted themselves in a corner. The developers did a monumentously, MMO-genre bendingly bad job in maintaining their own game balance. I've seen imbalances and Power Creep before, but other game developers took great effort in trying to keep things under check.
Not so with STO over the years.
Cryptic kept on giving out the Power Creep. DOFF system, which in itself is game breaking, Reputation Traits, Reputation Equipment, Lobi / Lockbox Ships of increasing power. We are at a point now that even the potent JHAS has lost some of its luster because there are other just as good ships out there in OP'ness. There's a new faction now that practically its entire ship lineup is OP. On and on. And Cryptic never bothered to look at how a new addition affected a game. Every Season, there's some game breaking DOFF. Every Season there's some game breaking ship. Every Season there's something game breaking, period (hello Undine ships, etc).
With so much Power Creep having been granted, and STILL being granted, with no checks and balances, nothing, and there is absolutely nothing Cryptic can do to make content that provides even some form of moderate challenge.
Edit to add: One of the hardest ESTFs from before was CSE. It used to take coordination, communication, and lane discipline, and acute awareness by the entire team to beat CSE. You can do this now in less than a handful of minutes. A Scimitar that's well played can go to any of the 3 wings and take out the content by itself. Avengers, Moghs can do the same thing but not in the same efficiency as the Scimitar.
It's a terrible ****ing joke. And people say Power Creep is a good thing? The OP is on crack!
Actually, they have two options:
1.) Update all content to make it more difficult. (heh he heh, riiiiiiiight)
2.) Make new, more difficult than what we currently have content.
Which will be immediately rendered obsolete and weak with the unbridled Power Creep.
Then we're back to people complaining about how easy the game is.
And the joke that we call "difficulty" in STO was brought about by... Power Creep. Which only increased over time in the history of STO because nothing was done by Cryptic to try to control it. Only recently with S9 and the Reputation Trait revision was SOMETHING done.
Really guys, how much unbridled Power Creep do you need for this retardedly easy game???
An increase in options is an advancement.
If you used to be able to choose option A, but lacked the ability to choose option B, gaining the ability to choose B is advancement.
Not necessarily, but I get your meaning. The options have to be incomparable. For example, look at this, this, and this. Each one of those weapons is very different, fulfills a different function, and comes with it's own unique advantages and drawbacks. That's how horizontal advancement works.
The problem is, with Team Fortress 2, when you die you respawn in a couple of seconds, and you're free to choose what weapons will be more useful this time around. It's not impossible, but the game would need some changes, particularly dealing with ground combat.
Loadouts would have to behave differently, and you would need access to more weapons. Two isn't enough.
I left that game ,when it gets to a point of being like a full wipe . having to regrind / pay for all your gear all over is kinda pointless in the state of mind of a veteran player of a game . hence i set coarse for a new game , and it looks like STO is approaching that same crossroads with its power creep.
you really cant have no Power creep in a MMO as you add new gear and ideas, but it can be controlled and weened . , STO is at the stage where they can fix it so the Veterans dont feel that all there work and spending is wasted .
That'll never happen again, not on a permanent basis anyway. Cryptic has tried to upgrade STO's AI before, most famously in "Hell Week" prior to S7, only to have to roll it back after getting an avalanche of complaints from their noob casual player base that it made the game too hard.
Yep, once again we keep getting back to that inconvenient little truth about STO, and the real reason why power creep has been allowed to go unchecked: Cryptic and PWE cater to the casual player base above all else, and power creep is what casual players want - or at least Cryptic has been trained by experience to believe as much.
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Hell week happened, not because of smart AI, but ridiculous game breaking spike damage that was unavoidable.
All the options are meaningless because there is no challenge that requires them.