I'm not even going to get into it with you about using non-game related information to try to defend your self when you miss stated the Andorian being a cruiser..
You are trying to defend non-innate ability's to justify innate ability's. That is totally illogical. I have said that the KDF needs a sci ship. So if the KDF get there version of the Vesta.. then what's your argument? What advantage does that federation ship have that's innate to it self.
This is why there is a bias in balance in the game. Ship for ship Federation ships are pretty much the weakest. Sure they have some gimmicky consoles but so do the other factions. After all look at the Romulans for some pretty insane consoles for there ship.
We could argue back and forth about these added imbalances. KDF elite fleet disruptors are very good while the Federation elite fleet phasers are pretty pathetic. Romulan boffs vs Federation boffs vs Klingon boffs with space traits.. ya Klingons got the short end of the stick and its a imbalance that should be addressed
What I'm talking about is innate ability of the ships. Having innate cloak is pretty darn good... having a innate battle cloak even better... 5% hull.. ya not so much. This imbalance should be addressed.. just because this is the one we have been discussing doesn't mean that other imbalances mainly the boff situation is any less relevant.
Balances that should be addressed:
Federation: Starfleet ships should get a innate ability that reflects Starfleet. There 3 cloaking ships should have there cloak innate or as a device and not have to sacrifice a console. Elite Fleet Phasers could use a buff to there proc or a change to make it more effective.
Klingons: They need space trait boffs that are effective. They NEED more dedicated science ships. Gorn ships lore wise were very armored and tanky... these should also be added.
Romulan: More sci ships, More faction races for ship diversity and Reman designed ships. Elite Fleet plasma weapons should be added.
I see flaws in balance in all three factions and I'm not being biased toward any of the factions. I think all three factions could use some tweaks.
I'm not even going to get into it with you about using non-game related information to try to defend your self when you miss stated the Andorian being a cruiser..
Well, we are using canonical stuff. I will call Androian escort a CRUISER, simply because that is the canonical name.
Why else do you want to stick with Fed? Because, aside from the fact that federation get more choice, it's because you want to play as a fed, of Star Trek -- you even tell me outright you do not want Androian or Caitian ship. You want a traditional Starfleet design. So at the very least, do understand that canonical name is canonical for a reason. I trust that you actually care about Canon, seeing you are actually passionate about staying Federation. Otherwise, if you just treat it as a game, we would not even have this argument; just jump ship and be KDF and Rom.
Now that my rant is over...
Let's put it this way, if when Fed get something, we also get some upgrade, us KDF would not be pissed, but Cryptic's poor track record indicate it to be otherwise. I hope you can at least understand why we are so defensive.
And perhaps, some people do not want to play with innate abilities, except just braving through guns a blazing. Otherwise every fed would just get a Avenger or Andorian Cruiser for the 5 forward, but instead they go for Assault Cruiser or Galaxy X. (though granted, a 180 degree torpedo is gimmicky...)
While it is debatable whether it is really imbalancing to make the cloak innate, I would think making it battle cloak is definitely imbalance -- even KDF does not get BC for everything.
Let's put it this way, if when Fed get something, we also get some upgrade, us KDF would not be pissed, but Cryptic's poor track record indicate it to be otherwise. I hope you can at least understand why we are so defensive.
And perhaps, some people do not want to play with innate abilities, except just braving through guns a blazing. Otherwise every fed would just get a Avenger or Andorian Cruiser for the 5 forward, but instead they go for Assault Cruiser or Galaxy X. (though granted, a 180 degree torpedo is gimmicky...)
While it is debatable whether it is really imbalancing to make the cloak innate, I would think making it battle cloak is definitely imbalance -- even KDF does not get BC for everything.
I stated earlier that lore wise all cloaks should be battle cloaks.. not that game balance wise they should be.
But lore wise the Romulan empire is no more.. and so there is nothing stopping federation cloak research or even phased cloak research other then the Federation stopping them selfs. Cloak is not really this back stabbing tactic that Starfleet wouldn't do.. its camouflage in space. The idea of no cloaks to keep peace with Romulan Empire.. even though a stretch is understandable.. but after there destruction it makes no sense. Scouting formation, cloaking medical trasnsports, supply transports.. there is a lot of non aggressive and defensive use of cloaks.
but you can argue lore till you are blue in the face...
The game is old.. and there are a lot of old ideas that just need to be changed.. the older factions need some care in the balance game between them self's and Romulans and some fleshing out. Will it happen doubt full.. no money to be made but one could hope they balance between factions.. be it ship, boff, or weapons. Change would worry some.. and be resisted by others but MMO's need that change once in while.
Heck I would love to see the new kit options extended to ships. Like if you have a battle cruiser now with 2 tac 2 end and sci. A new system where you have to have the same ratio of officers (meaning same number of tacs ect.) but you get to pick which is the Commander and which is the Lt. Commander and Lt. I think would be a great future option. Allow players to customize there ships based on who there crew is and not some silly console that for some reason wont allow better skilled officers to use all there skills on. Granted that type of change would need a total rebalance off all space skills.
PS: Didn't they refer to Andorian ships as the "Imperial Warhip Kalmari" in Enterprise? Also if you are going to use memory alpha as a sourse.. may want to refer the Andorian ships as Battle Cruiser http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andorian_battle_cruiser given its based off the Kalmari :-)
I'm not even going to get into it with you about using non-game related information to try to defend your self when you miss stated the Andorian being a cruiser..
You are trying to defend non-innate ability's to justify innate ability's. That is totally illogical. I have said that the KDF needs a sci ship. So if the KDF get there version of the Vesta.. then what's your argument? What advantage does that federation ship have that's innate to it self.
KDF dyson?
This is why there is a bias in balance in the game. Ship for ship Federation ships are pretty much the weakest. Sure they have some gimmicky consoles but so do the other factions. After all look at the Romulans for some pretty insane consoles for there ship.
Fed weakest? the problem isnt Bad fed ships but bad fed PLAYERS. I consider myself a real life student of war and i can tell you, if a person can make an unbeatable defense, he will lose NO BATTLES. That is what feds can do! But because the game is so "DPS or go home," NO ONE sees this. what allows fed to tank? the combined effect of ALL their heals. my Avenger has 300% hull healing. and half that is combat. that 150% is about what my mogh has OUT of combat. Conbine that with the borg two piece, lower crew count(which we spoke about before...), Hull healing trait, leadership trait boffs(YES THE BOFFS MATTER!), and you have a VERY resilient hull. then you stack on the damage resists. unbuffed i can get to 50%. buffed, i max it out to the 75%. then there is shields.....elite fleet resilient protect that strong hull better than anything else. add to that elite fleet phasers to heal the shields......add to that ALL the normal boff heals used...all this on avenger, one of the tankiest ships in game....using and Aux2damp build.....my god....
We could argue back and forth about these added imbalances. KDF elite fleet disruptors are very good while the Federation elite fleet phasers are pretty pathetic. They really arent that bad...... Romulan boffs vs Federation boffs vs Klingon boffs with space traits.. ya Klingons got the short end of the stick and its a imbalance that should be addressed
What I'm talking about is innate ability of the ships. Having innate cloak is pretty darn good...First strike, why klingons like to do.... having a innate battle cloak even better...masters of stealth, what the romulans have always been.... 5% hull.. Aids in defense, what the feds have always done...ya not so much. This imbalance should be addressed.. just because this is the one we have been discussing doesn't mean that other imbalances mainly the boff situation is any less relevant.
Balances that should be addressed:
Federation: Starfleet ships should get a innate ability that reflects Starfleet. There 3 cloaking ships should have there cloak innate or as a device and not have to sacrifice a console. Elite Fleet Phasers could use a buff to there proc or a change to make it more effective.
Considering the valdore console, a buff in the healing proc could MAYBE be done, but remember, it cant be too big an increase. heals via 8 spammed beams would be nuts....especially combined with the borg two piece....
Klingons: They need space trait boffs that are effective. They NEED more dedicated science ships. Gorn ships lore wise were very armored and tanky... these should also be added.
on the science this MIGHT be true. Remember, Klingons are WARRIORS, not scientist. they dont study things.....that much....they will shoot first, fight first and the things they study aid in fighting and the best play to study warship tactics in NO A WARSHIP, not a science ship. klingons dont have a need for science ship.....not canon-wise anyway.....and the devs havent thrown canon completely out the window....not yet. i will however admit.....dinos with head lasers.....somebody had a "5-year-old-day" at work....
Romulan: More sci ships, More faction races for ship diversity and Reman designed ships. Elite Fleet plasma weapons should be added.
Romulan Plasma IS their "elite fleet" weapon...they could use more science BUT. where the klingons are warriors, the romulans are SPIES.....they would study those things that aid in stealth....now wile this might bring them closer to using a science ship than the klingons it also might not however, it IS worth noting that romulan science ships have been seen on the show.
I see flaws in balance in all three factions and I'm not being biased toward any of the factions. I think all three factions could use some tweaks.
The entire game could use a tweak here and there, but not much as you, or others think.
I stated earlier that lore wise all cloaks should be battle cloaks.. not that game balance wise they should be.
But lore wise the Romulan empire is no more.. and so there is nothing stopping federation cloak research or even phased cloak research other then the Federation stopping them selfs. This only partly true. the federation president has said that claoking tech would not be developed. That is the lore reason behind feds not having claoks mainstream. the ACTUAL reason, it is done out of respect for the wishes of Star Trek's creator who believed Starfleet and the federation should be "Sneaking about the galaxy." i believe those where the words he used. because of this, CBS isnt going to sign off on a bunch of cloaking fed ships. to be honest, i surprised they let the avenger use one. Cloak is not really this back stabbing tactic that Starfleet wouldn't do.. its camouflage in space. The idea of no cloaks to keep peace with Romulan Empire.. even though a stretch is understandable.. but after there destruction it makes no sense. Scouting formation, cloaking medical trasnsports, supply transports.. there is a lot of non aggressive and defensive use of cloaks.
but you can argue lore till you are blue in the face...
The game is old.. and there are a lot of old ideas that just need to be changed.. the older factions need some care in the balance game between them self's and Romulans and some fleshing out. Will it happen doubt full.. no money to be made but one could hope they balance between factions.. be it ship, boff, or weapons. Change would worry some.. and be resisted by others but MMO's need that change once in while.
Heck I would love to see the new kit options extended to ships. Like if you have a battle cruiser now with 2 tac 2 end and sci. A new system where you have to have the same ratio of officers (meaning same number of tacs ect.) but you get to pick which is the Commander and which is the Lt. Commander and Lt. Oh...you mean like how ALL BOFF slots are universal.......didnt the KDF do that......I think would be a great future option. Allow players to customize there ships based on who there crew is and not some silly console that for some reason wont allow better skilled officers to use all there skills on. Granted that type of change would need a total rebalance off all space skills.
PS: Didn't they refer to Andorian ships as the "Imperial Warhip Kalmari" in Enterprise? Also if you are going to use memory alpha as a sourse.. may want to refer the Andorian ships as Battle Cruiser http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andorian_battle_cruiser given its based off the Kalmari :-)
Some would say that the Federation has no need to pursue cloaking technology now that the Federation - Klingon war is over. The RSE no longer poses a threat either with the Tal Shiar so weakened so I see no reason to need military technology like that. If anything it would create more friction between the three powers in the game.
All that aside, the cloak is pointless anyway. You get a few seconds of extra damage for the loss of a console slot which could be much better utilised. I never use the cloak for my Avenger or Gal-X, it's just not worth it.
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Some would say that the Federation has no need to pursue cloaking technology now that the Federation - Klingon war is over. The RSE no longer poses a threat either with the Tal Shiar so weakened so I see no reason to need military technology like that. If anything it would create more friction between the three powers in the game.
All that aside, the cloak is pointless anyway. You get a few seconds of extra damage for the loss of a console slot which could be much better utilised. I never use the cloak for my Avenger or Gal-X, it's just not worth it.
There are in game tactical reasons behind the cloak. it allows one to engage battle on his terms or not at all. it allows one to ambush a target, to get in close a stick it to them. Sure you cant fade out of battle, but the START of a batter is always under your control.
Consider this: you see a battle happening, a KDF ship is engaging a star fleet vessel. what do you do?
DO you engage to help? DEATH. two more ship decloak and own you. those two ships, were allowed to do that because you didnt know they were even there.
Consider the scene is DS9 where the defiant was enroute to rescue dukat. they came arcoss cardassian wreakage and Bassir demanded they look for survivors. Worf warned them not to, why? there could be cloaked ships in wait. the defiant was cloaked itself, and had total control of the situation but once they declaoked, they would give away that control.
Same thin applies with non cloaking ships. if i am playing my KDF player, and i see a ship i know i cant beat, I STAY CLOAKED. the battle never happens. If you see a ship you know you cant beat, you must hope you can run away, or hope he is not in a fighting mood. Either way, you have no control.
Remember the words of Sun tzu: All warfare is based on deception. Nothing more deceiving than making your enemy think youre not there.
Sun Tzu also said: "if you are far from your enemy, make him believe you are near, if you are near, make him believe you are far." what better way to do that then with a cloak?
this one is for kelshando: Sun tzu also said this: Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack. Defence is what the FEDs are BEST at. hint hint.
Agree that the CLoak consoles should either be made devices only useable on the fed ships that take it as a console now or just made innate. Seriously the Cloak is cool and all but it really isnt worth the console space for an opening valley. Even with Romulan battle cloaks I dont see many cloaking after kills to move to next group. Its ok and all but not really all that big of a change as some seem to make it out as.
Honestly most the game needs a rebalanced approach to the mechanics. The difference between the Hulls of a escort and a cruiser taking hits is a few seconds in most Pve gameplay.
You are not some military history student... if you were then you would of never ever ever said that about defense. Military history has shown that no defense can not be over come. More so that adopting a siege mentality dooms the defenders. That Offensive operation are a must when defending.
You claim Feds defense is what they do so there fine then in same paragraph contradict your self with saying the dps is so high in negates that defense. Guess what... that means that 5% hull is not compensation enough.. thank you for proving my point.
Oh your comments on the whole Klingon are warriors.. here is a little secret.. the KDF are not all Klingons... ya I know its a shocker.. If the Klingons are only warriors.. who is designing there new ships? Who is upgrading there tech? As warriors if they see a advantage of a enemy they would use it. If sci ships support there fleet to that victory they would build them.
Romulan plasma is NOT Elite fleet level....
You didn't even understand the part about the console slots.. you jump to some conclusion with out really reading the post... let me explain it again very simply... you are still subject to the limited number of tac/eng and sci slots... they are all not universal.. just the rank of each slot is not predetermined.
oh you know what.. your worthless to discuses this with... you are so bias and so scared of change you can not be in any way open mined.. go troll somewhere else.
I'm okay with Feds getting something like a better increase in sensors, so they can detect cloaked vessels easier with an innate accuracy bonus.
Cloaks for the Federation are fine the way they are now, and that should not change. You want to do something outside of what is normal for Federation, which is cloaking, you pay for it with a console slot. Or you just don't cloak. If you really just love cloaking that much and don't want to lose a console slot, there are two other factions you can play instead.
Agree that the CLoak consoles should either be made devices only useable on the fed ships that take it as a console now or just made innate. Seriously the Cloak is cool and all but it really isnt worth the console space for an opening valley.
at one time it was an innate cloak on the Tactical Escort Retrofit.... then people where complaining aboutit being an innate ability or something, then they made it a console..... and gave you an extra console slot for it. If it becomes innate on fed ships, they WILL lose their extra consoles again, meaning 9 Console Fleet level ships for the Gal-X and Defiant.
I'm okay with Feds getting something like a better increase in sensors, so they can detect cloaked vessels easier with an innate accuracy bonus.
Cloaks for the Federation are fine the way they are now, and that should not change. You want to do something outside of what is normal for Federation, which is cloaking, you pay for it with a console slot. Or you just don't cloak. If you really just love cloaking that much and don't want to lose a console slot, there are two other factions you can play instead.
I agree 100% and a console slot is a reasonable price to pay for my Avenger and Defiant to cloak.
You mean the Nebula Tachyon Detection Field console is not good enough?
It already allows the feds to make the best cloak detectors ingame.
I dont see why they need even better capability to detect cloakers, especially when the stealth consoles and use of Aux in cloaking do not compete.
As far as I'm aware, that console is only usable on the Nebula, so that doesn't help if you want to use a different ship.
And I'm open for other ideas, that was just one that came to the top of my head. If there's something else that other people think is better, then they can suggest it.
Though, to be honest, I also think things are perfectly fine the way they are now.
As far as I'm aware, that console is only usable on the Nebula, so that doesn't help if you want to use a different ship.
He's talking about the Tier 3 Nebula's console. That one can be equiped on any ship and if you jump to the PvP section of the forum, it aparently helps people detect stealthed oponents at the range of 23 km (or 28 km, don't 100% remember).
The Ability to detect cloaked ships should equal the ability to stay cloaked
advantage cloaked ..........
The ability to destroy a cloaked ship should equal the ability of a cloaked ship to destroy a non cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The ease of staying cloaked should equal the ease of detecting a cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The costs of all 3 items above should equal out in skill points and console slots
advantage cloaked.........
Right now I believe the costs all favor the cloaked side and is very unbalenced
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
He's talking about the Tier 3 Nebula's console. That one can be equiped on any ship and if you jump to the PvP section of the forum, it aparently helps people detect stealthed oponents at the range of 23 km (or 28 km, don't 100% remember).
Ah. The only Nebula I have is the one they gave away for free, which I think was the T5(T4?) version. The T3 one is indeed universal.
Right now I believe the costs all favor the cloaked side and is very unbalenced
True, and that is probably why the ships that cloak have less durability once they engaged in combat, with the exception of Romulans that are OP by design. That is their built-in cost, just like the innate cloak.
Well, I think that sacrificing a console is a bit much for the cloaking device. I agree that there needs to be a sacrifice, but that sacrifice would be well fit by making it fit in an actual device slot. The standard cloak really isn't that good compared to battle cloaks and more importantly, Romulan battle cloaks. For a Defiant or even the Avenger - the loss of a Device would hit them almost/as hard as a console - giving up one of your two device slots for the cloak would be a very fair sacrifice.
Now a Galaxy X, that would be almost a 'non-sacrifice', with it's four devices. But I still think it would be a more palatable choice then a console slot. You don't lose any stats the way a romulan or kdf ship would, but you DO trade it off for something useful.
The Ability to detect cloaked ships should equal the ability to stay cloaked
advantage cloaked ..........
The ability to destroy a cloaked ship should equal the ability of a cloaked ship to destroy a non cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The ease of staying cloaked should equal the ease of detecting a cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The costs of all 3 items above should equal out in skill points and console slots
advantage cloaked.........
Right now I believe the costs all favor the cloaked side and is very unbalenced
1) the ability to detect cloaked is more powerful than the ability to be undetected while cloaked.
2) the only advantage for cloaked is first strike, which is nullified by cloak detection. No advantage for any side is balance.
3) the ease of staying cloaked is easily removed by variuos powers ingame and directly countered by cloak detection which allows the detector to attack an unsuspecting and defenseless foe.
No advantage either side is balance.
It helps but is not the only thing people use to stealth detect.
Stealth detection has no dimishing returns . Everything stacks.
So pure snooper set ups use EPTA, Aux batteries, Sensor probe consoles, Spec into Sensors, and Sensor Scan + TDF console.
And the only thing a Cloaker has to do is mash 1 button saying battlecloak that comes on their ship that has more firepower than mine....Romulan
seems perfectally balenced and fair huh
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And the only thing a Cloaker has to do is mash 1 button saying battlecloak that comes on their ship that has more firepower than mine....Romulan
seems perfectally balenced and fair huh
If you are snooping and let a Romulan get that close to kill you, you should be snooping better.
Besides, there are some bugs that need to be fixed right now, and thus I consider the whole 'imbalance' a moot point because BUGS mean things are not working as they should. Namely that some equipment and abilities are not providing a +Stealth bonus like they should. Also doesn't help that the Stealth skill itself is garbage.
But...none of this matters I suppose. After all, we're getting into purely PvP situations now. And as I hear so much, "PvP doesn't matter". Cloak really don't make a huge difference in PvE, and snooping is also pointless there.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
To all you saying you can build a ship to detect cloak.. you can use consoles to detect cloak... how many detect cloak ability's are innate? So federation should give up even more to deal with cloaking... and you call that balance? How about this... Federation have innate sensor sweeps that detect cloaked ships... how about that.
To all you saying you can build a ship to detect cloak.. you can use consoles to detect cloak... how many detect cloak ability's are innate? So federation should give up even more to deal with cloaking... and you call that balance? How about this... Federation have innate sensor sweeps that detect cloaked ships... how about that.
I'll be fine with that as long as it has a reasonable cooldown that wont hinder the point of the cloak, at least it's not something anti-Federation and doesn't furher blur the faction diversity.
But you're missing another thing, while the cloaking is built-in on certain ships - the preformance of that cloak varies based on other things, just like for stealth detection. For ex. skill points in stealth, stealth consoles, distrubiting more ship power to auxiliary, etc.
There's a huge difference between a ship with innate cloak only and a ship with innate cloak that has invested in stealth.
Snooping abilities don't stay active forever. Then there's the distraction factor of trying to kill someone else and you get blindsided. Then there are times when you could be snooping but the cloakers rushes in, you see them but yet not with enough time to counter them. Or you're simply outnumbered and the first cloaker doesn't get you but the 2nd or 3rd does.
If cloak detection was to stay active forever it would need a balancing downside.
All these other examples are pointless as they either deal with a prepared foe that is not caught unawares of being discovered so of they attack quickly, or the downside of being in a outnumbered combat.
Though I am curiuos how if one is snooping, and skilled/buffed for it, how a second cloaker can surprise you within the 10km range of combat. Even if you can not defend against the second attacker you should still see them.
To all you saying you can build a ship to detect cloak.. you can use consoles to detect cloak... how many detect cloak ability's are innate? So federation should give up even more to deal with cloaking... and you call that balance? How about this... Federation have innate sensor sweeps that detect cloaked ships... how about that.
Sensor scan is innate. Higher the skill the better you can spot cloakers in cloak.
I say no unless your innate detection sweep has a standard cloak cooldown and is like standard cloak in that is not usable during combat.
Comments
You are trying to defend non-innate ability's to justify innate ability's. That is totally illogical. I have said that the KDF needs a sci ship. So if the KDF get there version of the Vesta.. then what's your argument? What advantage does that federation ship have that's innate to it self.
This is why there is a bias in balance in the game. Ship for ship Federation ships are pretty much the weakest. Sure they have some gimmicky consoles but so do the other factions. After all look at the Romulans for some pretty insane consoles for there ship.
We could argue back and forth about these added imbalances. KDF elite fleet disruptors are very good while the Federation elite fleet phasers are pretty pathetic. Romulan boffs vs Federation boffs vs Klingon boffs with space traits.. ya Klingons got the short end of the stick and its a imbalance that should be addressed
What I'm talking about is innate ability of the ships. Having innate cloak is pretty darn good... having a innate battle cloak even better... 5% hull.. ya not so much. This imbalance should be addressed.. just because this is the one we have been discussing doesn't mean that other imbalances mainly the boff situation is any less relevant.
Balances that should be addressed:
Federation: Starfleet ships should get a innate ability that reflects Starfleet. There 3 cloaking ships should have there cloak innate or as a device and not have to sacrifice a console. Elite Fleet Phasers could use a buff to there proc or a change to make it more effective.
Klingons: They need space trait boffs that are effective. They NEED more dedicated science ships. Gorn ships lore wise were very armored and tanky... these should also be added.
Romulan: More sci ships, More faction races for ship diversity and Reman designed ships. Elite Fleet plasma weapons should be added.
I see flaws in balance in all three factions and I'm not being biased toward any of the factions. I think all three factions could use some tweaks.
Well, we are using canonical stuff. I will call Androian escort a CRUISER, simply because that is the canonical name.
Why else do you want to stick with Fed? Because, aside from the fact that federation get more choice, it's because you want to play as a fed, of Star Trek -- you even tell me outright you do not want Androian or Caitian ship. You want a traditional Starfleet design. So at the very least, do understand that canonical name is canonical for a reason. I trust that you actually care about Canon, seeing you are actually passionate about staying Federation. Otherwise, if you just treat it as a game, we would not even have this argument; just jump ship and be KDF and Rom.
Now that my rant is over...
Let's put it this way, if when Fed get something, we also get some upgrade, us KDF would not be pissed, but Cryptic's poor track record indicate it to be otherwise. I hope you can at least understand why we are so defensive.
And perhaps, some people do not want to play with innate abilities, except just braving through guns a blazing. Otherwise every fed would just get a Avenger or Andorian Cruiser for the 5 forward, but instead they go for Assault Cruiser or Galaxy X. (though granted, a 180 degree torpedo is gimmicky...)
While it is debatable whether it is really imbalancing to make the cloak innate, I would think making it battle cloak is definitely imbalance -- even KDF does not get BC for everything.
I stated earlier that lore wise all cloaks should be battle cloaks.. not that game balance wise they should be.
But lore wise the Romulan empire is no more.. and so there is nothing stopping federation cloak research or even phased cloak research other then the Federation stopping them selfs. Cloak is not really this back stabbing tactic that Starfleet wouldn't do.. its camouflage in space. The idea of no cloaks to keep peace with Romulan Empire.. even though a stretch is understandable.. but after there destruction it makes no sense. Scouting formation, cloaking medical trasnsports, supply transports.. there is a lot of non aggressive and defensive use of cloaks.
but you can argue lore till you are blue in the face...
The game is old.. and there are a lot of old ideas that just need to be changed.. the older factions need some care in the balance game between them self's and Romulans and some fleshing out. Will it happen doubt full.. no money to be made but one could hope they balance between factions.. be it ship, boff, or weapons. Change would worry some.. and be resisted by others but MMO's need that change once in while.
Heck I would love to see the new kit options extended to ships. Like if you have a battle cruiser now with 2 tac 2 end and sci. A new system where you have to have the same ratio of officers (meaning same number of tacs ect.) but you get to pick which is the Commander and which is the Lt. Commander and Lt. I think would be a great future option. Allow players to customize there ships based on who there crew is and not some silly console that for some reason wont allow better skilled officers to use all there skills on. Granted that type of change would need a total rebalance off all space skills.
PS: Didn't they refer to Andorian ships as the "Imperial Warhip Kalmari" in Enterprise? Also if you are going to use memory alpha as a sourse.. may want to refer the Andorian ships as Battle Cruiser http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andorian_battle_cruiser given its based off the Kalmari :-)
:eek: wow!!
just wow:rolleyes:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
The entire game could use a tweak here and there, but not much as you, or others think.
All that aside, the cloak is pointless anyway. You get a few seconds of extra damage for the loss of a console slot which could be much better utilised. I never use the cloak for my Avenger or Gal-X, it's just not worth it.
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There are in game tactical reasons behind the cloak. it allows one to engage battle on his terms or not at all. it allows one to ambush a target, to get in close a stick it to them. Sure you cant fade out of battle, but the START of a batter is always under your control.
Consider this: you see a battle happening, a KDF ship is engaging a star fleet vessel. what do you do?
DO you engage to help? DEATH. two more ship decloak and own you. those two ships, were allowed to do that because you didnt know they were even there.
Consider the scene is DS9 where the defiant was enroute to rescue dukat. they came arcoss cardassian wreakage and Bassir demanded they look for survivors. Worf warned them not to, why? there could be cloaked ships in wait. the defiant was cloaked itself, and had total control of the situation but once they declaoked, they would give away that control.
Same thin applies with non cloaking ships. if i am playing my KDF player, and i see a ship i know i cant beat, I STAY CLOAKED. the battle never happens. If you see a ship you know you cant beat, you must hope you can run away, or hope he is not in a fighting mood. Either way, you have no control.
Remember the words of Sun tzu: All warfare is based on deception. Nothing more deceiving than making your enemy think youre not there.
Sun Tzu also said: "if you are far from your enemy, make him believe you are near, if you are near, make him believe you are far." what better way to do that then with a cloak?
this one is for kelshando: Sun tzu also said this: Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack. Defence is what the FEDs are BEST at. hint hint.
like i said, i am a student of war.
Honestly most the game needs a rebalanced approach to the mechanics. The difference between the Hulls of a escort and a cruiser taking hits is a few seconds in most Pve gameplay.
You are not some military history student... if you were then you would of never ever ever said that about defense. Military history has shown that no defense can not be over come. More so that adopting a siege mentality dooms the defenders. That Offensive operation are a must when defending.
You claim Feds defense is what they do so there fine then in same paragraph contradict your self with saying the dps is so high in negates that defense. Guess what... that means that 5% hull is not compensation enough.. thank you for proving my point.
Oh your comments on the whole Klingon are warriors.. here is a little secret.. the KDF are not all Klingons... ya I know its a shocker.. If the Klingons are only warriors.. who is designing there new ships? Who is upgrading there tech? As warriors if they see a advantage of a enemy they would use it. If sci ships support there fleet to that victory they would build them.
Romulan plasma is NOT Elite fleet level....
You didn't even understand the part about the console slots.. you jump to some conclusion with out really reading the post... let me explain it again very simply... you are still subject to the limited number of tac/eng and sci slots... they are all not universal.. just the rank of each slot is not predetermined.
oh you know what.. your worthless to discuses this with... you are so bias and so scared of change you can not be in any way open mined.. go troll somewhere else.
Cloaks for the Federation are fine the way they are now, and that should not change. You want to do something outside of what is normal for Federation, which is cloaking, you pay for it with a console slot. Or you just don't cloak. If you really just love cloaking that much and don't want to lose a console slot, there are two other factions you can play instead.
at one time it was an innate cloak on the Tactical Escort Retrofit.... then people where complaining aboutit being an innate ability or something, then they made it a console..... and gave you an extra console slot for it. If it becomes innate on fed ships, they WILL lose their extra consoles again, meaning 9 Console Fleet level ships for the Gal-X and Defiant.
I agree 100% and a console slot is a reasonable price to pay for my Avenger and Defiant to cloak.
It already allows the feds to make the best cloak detectors ingame.
I dont see why they need even better capability to detect cloakers, especially when the stealth consoles and use of Aux in cloaking do not compete.
R.I.P
And I'm open for other ideas, that was just one that came to the top of my head. If there's something else that other people think is better, then they can suggest it.
Though, to be honest, I also think things are perfectly fine the way they are now.
He's talking about the Tier 3 Nebula's console. That one can be equiped on any ship and if you jump to the PvP section of the forum, it aparently helps people detect stealthed oponents at the range of 23 km (or 28 km, don't 100% remember).
advantage cloaked ..........
The ability to destroy a cloaked ship should equal the ability of a cloaked ship to destroy a non cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The ease of staying cloaked should equal the ease of detecting a cloaked ship
advantage cloaked..........
The costs of all 3 items above should equal out in skill points and console slots
advantage cloaked.........
Right now I believe the costs all favor the cloaked side and is very unbalenced
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
True, and that is probably why the ships that cloak have less durability once they engaged in combat, with the exception of Romulans that are OP by design. That is their built-in cost, just like the innate cloak.
Now a Galaxy X, that would be almost a 'non-sacrifice', with it's four devices. But I still think it would be a more palatable choice then a console slot. You don't lose any stats the way a romulan or kdf ship would, but you DO trade it off for something useful.
1) the ability to detect cloaked is more powerful than the ability to be undetected while cloaked.
2) the only advantage for cloaked is first strike, which is nullified by cloak detection. No advantage for any side is balance.
3) the ease of staying cloaked is easily removed by variuos powers ingame and directly countered by cloak detection which allows the detector to attack an unsuspecting and defenseless foe.
No advantage either side is balance.
R.I.P
And the only thing a Cloaker has to do is mash 1 button saying battlecloak that comes on their ship that has more firepower than mine....Romulan
seems perfectally balenced and fair huh
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If you are snooping and let a Romulan get that close to kill you, you should be snooping better.
Besides, there are some bugs that need to be fixed right now, and thus I consider the whole 'imbalance' a moot point because BUGS mean things are not working as they should. Namely that some equipment and abilities are not providing a +Stealth bonus like they should. Also doesn't help that the Stealth skill itself is garbage.
But...none of this matters I suppose. After all, we're getting into purely PvP situations now. And as I hear so much, "PvP doesn't matter". Cloak really don't make a huge difference in PvE, and snooping is also pointless there.
I'll be fine with that as long as it has a reasonable cooldown that wont hinder the point of the cloak, at least it's not something anti-Federation and doesn't furher blur the faction diversity.
But you're missing another thing, while the cloaking is built-in on certain ships - the preformance of that cloak varies based on other things, just like for stealth detection. For ex. skill points in stealth, stealth consoles, distrubiting more ship power to auxiliary, etc.
There's a huge difference between a ship with innate cloak only and a ship with innate cloak that has invested in stealth.
Its well known the Romulans are Mary Sue.
R.I.P
If cloak detection was to stay active forever it would need a balancing downside.
All these other examples are pointless as they either deal with a prepared foe that is not caught unawares of being discovered so of they attack quickly, or the downside of being in a outnumbered combat.
Though I am curiuos how if one is snooping, and skilled/buffed for it, how a second cloaker can surprise you within the 10km range of combat. Even if you can not defend against the second attacker you should still see them.
R.I.P
Sensor scan is innate. Higher the skill the better you can spot cloakers in cloak.
I say no unless your innate detection sweep has a standard cloak cooldown and is like standard cloak in that is not usable during combat.
R.I.P