Ok, I lost interest in this thread somewhere on page 2, but I just have to lol at the OP thinking that just cause he started the thread means he has a right to do some amateur moderating.:rolleyes:
Some people.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
Ok before you start yelling and ranting about this just hear me out.
I have been going back and forth with a friend via email. And this has sparked a nice debate. However WE as a group who have been debating this.. we are at a standstill and look for EVERYONE'S opinion. This is a friendly debate please no cussing, swearing, insulting, ETC. (posts like that will be flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct) remember this is a CIVIL debate.
There are fleets on the entire spectrum that constantly bicker on who is right and who is wrong. We have fleets that charge for access/provisions, we have fleets that do not charge at all. Then we have fleets that don't charge for access but charge for provision use. And constantly the fleets that give free full access reports other fleets that charge for access per the TOS that its scamming players (see TOS 15.2 Sub. J ) BUT how is it a scam because these its giving a price tag to a provision that COSTS. not by EC but in fleet marks, dilithium, doffs, and commodities.
Think about it like a math equation. A fleet wants to provision. Project X requires Y resources and gives 15 provisions. Right? So the price of that provision costs 1/15th Y
People want the tier 5 FED and KDF gear. Which we all understand. I mean who doesnt want a tier 4 fleet avenger or tier 5 fleet assault.? But to gt the higher gear it requires all these resources. And some fleets that are small need to BUY their dilly so that they can knock out these tier projects. So in fact its NOT free to the fleet to tier up so why should the fleet give access for FREE.
I would understand if everyone got a tier 5 fleet off the bat and provisions were free that then it would be a scam because its charging for something that IS free but the current system shows you that a tier 5 fleet IS NOT free and people call foul or scam for when fleets charge.
Remember this is a CIVIL debate, I invite the entire Player base (AND GMS/MODS) to join in and voice their opinion. Remember be civil
q: should people pay for fleet access?
a: if free access is readily available, why would they?
reading your post i almost think your question should be 'should a fleet feel obliged to offer free access', to which i would answer 'no'.
i do for two reasons: spite: hobo will have nothing but bridge services to sell so long as i am in sto. empathy: i know what its like to not be able to hold onto members due to limited fleet holdings. NoP Public Service helps smaller fleets by not only satiating their members' desire for high-end kit, but also giving their members a reason to generate more fleet credit.
Its true they do. HOWEVER they ALSO flag people who charge as scammers because it doesn't conform to their way.
Just a few weeks ago one of their mods flagged a girl I know in-game as Freya as a scammer because she charged for a fleet ship. Point being as you said its up to the fleet weather or not to charge. BUT that does not give a right for fleets who dont charge to call foul for fleets that do charge.
NoP Public Service isnt very welcoming of those that monitor public requests then msg people with some proposal that ends up costing ec or the like. we are downright hostile to people that invite people to a holding under the premise of free-access, yet solicit for some sort of recompense. there are channels better suited for 'commercial' endeavours.
and in defence of those that charge for fleet ships on esd and the like: back when i did sell fleet ships, the payment was never considered compensation for a ship provision. it was instead compensation for my time and effort. i would need to head out to the starbase, map-invite the person, possibly talk them through the system, wait for them to talk to somebody in their fleet to arrange for their return, show them where the ship vendor was, invite them to the fleet and promote them, stand there waiting as they realised they needed to clear a slot on their ship roster, wait while they looked for their ship in the vendor, and so on.
even at 10-15 million a pop i often wondered if it was even worth the time spent.
"should people be allowed to choose how they spend their own hard earned currency even if that mean being scammed"
Since we have extremely kind folks that donate access to their bases to anyone, the answers become
- "no one *should* be dumb enough to pay for access to something that is free"
- "people *should* be allowed to make their own (possibly foolish) decisions with their resources
which are at odds with each other. Choosing either answer excludes the other one, but both answers are valid.
(*** This excludes buying ships. Ships cost the fleet providing access resources and payment there is reasonable. Free access to a ship is a BIG gift and very generous).
- "no one *should* be dumb enough to pay for access to something that is free"
- "people *should* be allowed to make their own (possibly foolish) decisions with their resources
which are at odds with each other. Choosing either answer excludes the other one, but both answers are valid.
How are they at odds with each other? I call this premise "A fool and his money are soon parted". It's the guiding principle of free market capitalism. What are you, some kind of filthy Commie? If it weren't for people who made poor decisions with their money, we'd all be broke and unable to afford nice things. Hell, most of us are STILL broke and unable to afford nice things, and if people don't keep making dumb decisions, I'll never get anywhere near Jedinikon and will be flying on junk forever.
Giving access costs the fleet nothing, expect the energy it takes you to invite someone.
The provisions come from the invited person's fleet's provision stores, not yours.
So yes, it is a scam. The invited person isnt using your provisions.
This is correct and the way it works
But the person looking for the gear has to be in a ( fleet ) with the correct provisions in stock in their fleet which can really mess up the little fleet bad example
your tiny fleet just finished a locater project at your spire....5 locator consoles are available but your fleet leader has store access turned off because the agreement was a certian person gets those consoles because he footed the bill to put them in the store
(You) pop over to as friends starbase and buy those consoles with a map invite removing those consoles from your bases store
Now the person who put those consoles in your fleets store is Shafted because ( you ) stole his hard work
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Yep, getting access to a fleet to buy consoles and such shouldn't cost, as they cost only provisions from your own fleet. But...
If you require to join their fleet temporary to buy a fleet ship, I think its only fair to have to pay as it's costing their fleet's resources for you. Also, if you don't have a fleet but want fleet gear and have to join a fleet to get it, a payment is not out of the question. It's only fair.
EDIT: You should always check with your fleet leader if its okay to use fleet provisions.
Quote about STO on consoles: "Not quite as bad as No man's sky, but a close second."
your tiny fleet just finished a locater project at your spire....5 locator consoles are available but your fleet leader has store access turned off because the agreement was a certian person gets those consoles because he footed the bill to put them in the store
(You) pop over to as friends starbase and buy those consoles with a map invite removing those consoles from your bases store
Now the person who put those consoles in your fleets store is Shafted because ( you ) stole his hard work
if your fleet leader disables store access for you they not only lock the store, they lock away the provisions. you will not be able to use those provisions at any store you are invited to.
Its really up to the Fleet that's doing the inviting.
But at the same time, a little donation towards one of their projects, or a little EC to their Fleet Bank isn't unreasonable (as long as they aren't asking for 10mil +)
Just as a way of saying thanks.
I am not a Mod. I am just a player. You have been informed :cool:
At this point, there are so many fleets giving free access that those who spam advertisements to sell access is essentially attempting to scamming noobs, as no one who knows better will go for it anymore. There isn't any mmo, including Eve Online which take pride upon their hands off approach, willing to tolerate scamming new players, even within confines of game mechanics. It's bad for business.
1: If your fleet works hard to get to tier 5 and have lots of provisions, yet someone is looking to get access to a Tier 5 Store, yet he/she is on a fleet that is Tier 1 and has no provisions. He/she must join your fleet and use YOUR Fleet's provisions which your members worked for. It is as simple as saying, you work hard on making a cake and you give it away free.
~ In this situation I do believe Fleets that give access to Tier 5 Stores, but the invitee uses inviters' own provisions, Yes, The fleet is in it's soul right to charge access.
2: If your fleet works hard to get to tier 5 and you have lots of provisions, yet someone is looking to get access to a Tier 5 Store, yet he/she is on a fleet that is tier 3/4 and has provisions. He/she can get an invite to the Tier 5 Store and buy what'ever using the invitee's own provisions. (Note - Provisions can be locked by Fleet Leaders and prevents the invitee on buying provisions even if he is in a T5 Store.
~ In this situation I do believe Fleets that give access to Tier 5 Stores, but the invitee uses his/her own provisions, No, The Fleet should not charge.
~ But then again it is debatable to charge the "Access" (Invite) to store. in this case, you can leave it at Fleet leader and Officer's discretion.
However, all of this can be categorized as scamming, but the simple answer is no, it is not scamming, if a Fleet wishes to charge in order to give access to their stores, it is in their soul discretion. If the one requiring access to the store does not like the idea of being charged, oh well...
I honestly think the whole debate is pointless for two reasons.
1) Fleet access given in the form on an invite to a fleet holding map should not be charged because the invited party is required to use their own fleet's provisions not the invitee's. If you offer to let someone join your fleet to get those provisions thats on you and however you want to do it.
2) The fleet leaders are the ones who choose how to deal with their access privalages and store access. If the fleet leaders decide to open the doors for free then they have their reasons and it's what ends up happening.
Take what my fleet is doing currently. We are working up the sb and all the holdings currently and we are using all resources at our disposal to do it. after were done I plan to open it up to everyone in NoP Public Service. People cant owe me or my fleet for us wanting our sb at top tier, but they can want access to it, which doesn't affect my fleet's provisions at all. So what do I have that I could rightfully charge for? ...Nothing except for fleet ships. Even then I won't charge for them because its silly.
However, all of this can be categorized as scamming, but the simple answer is no, it is not scamming, if a Fleet wishes to charge in order to give access to their stores, it is in their soul discretion. If the one requiring access to the store does not like the idea of being charged, oh well...
It is however if the person is using the NOP public service channel to get people to come to their base. That channel was set up specifically to give free access to fleet holdings. If you advertise your base or invite people who are asking in that channel you do not charge.
Outside of that channel it is, as I said earlier, the choice of the fleet whether or not to charge.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I've been on the NOP public service channel for 3 months and not once has anyone else been on their or answered me questions about free access.
All I want is a Yellowstone for my Jem Dreadnought and RCS.
I removed it from my try because I was being ignored from November 2013 - Mid February 2014.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
It is however if the person is using the NOP public service channel to get people to come to their base. That channel was set up specifically to give free access to fleet holdings. If you advertise your base or invite people who are asking in that channel you do not charge.
Outside of that channel it is, as I said earlier, the choice of the fleet whether or not to charge.
The issue is not itself with in the NoP Service Channel but as a general topic that hits zone chat... and I do agree with you, if a player is selling access in NoP by all right he should be kicked, as NoP is a Free Service Channel, however I still hold my 2 points of view in the situation, where indirect or directly related to granting access to Stores...
Outside of NoP, or more so, in zone chat, why should a player be flagged as Scam when all he/she is doing, is selling access to his fleet's stores, after working hard to obtain them in the 1st place... If someone wishes to get access to the stores and is desperate to get access, and does not know about NoP, why should the one granting access get flag as a scammer?
Also, too keep in mind, there is nothing on the EULA about selling access to stores, if selling access to stores, is against the EULA, then by all sakes, why do we have an exchange. Taking this in mind and going back to the OP or some other post with-in this thread, No, no one selling access to stores should be flagged as a scammer...
Again it all lies on the one Needing the Access!!! and How bad he needs the access... taking in consideration Fleet Provisions both from invitee and inviter.
Also. I'll put this out there...
If you are seeking access to my Stores, but you have provisions, I'll happily grant you access, but when you join my fleet and need my provisions, then YES, I'll charge you... I give access on NoP Public Service for free,... Outside of NoP if I get asked for access. I charge whether you use your own provisions or mine, but again, I wont charge more than 10+M, 10+ is just way to much to grant access...
Again, it is all on the Fleet Leader's discretion...
Giving access costs the fleet nothing, expect the energy it takes you to invite someone.
The provisions come from the invited person's fleet's provision stores, not yours.
So yes, it is a scam. The invited person isnt using your provisions.
Correct! ^^^
I only learned about this after the NoP Public Service channel went up when one of their guys told me. Confirmed it when making a purchase and seeing my fleet's provision numbers getting affected.
I only learned about this after the NoP Public Service channel went up when one of their guys told me. Confirmed it when making a purchase and seeing my fleet's provision numbers getting affected.
And so what happens when you don't have provisions in your fleet and you join another fleet and use theirs???
Comments
Some people.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
a: if free access is readily available, why would they?
reading your post i almost think your question should be 'should a fleet feel obliged to offer free access', to which i would answer 'no'.
i do for two reasons:
spite: hobo will have nothing but bridge services to sell so long as i am in sto.
empathy: i know what its like to not be able to hold onto members due to limited fleet holdings. NoP Public Service helps smaller fleets by not only satiating their members' desire for high-end kit, but also giving their members a reason to generate more fleet credit.
NoP Public Service isnt very welcoming of those that monitor public requests then msg people with some proposal that ends up costing ec or the like. we are downright hostile to people that invite people to a holding under the premise of free-access, yet solicit for some sort of recompense. there are channels better suited for 'commercial' endeavours.
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Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
even at 10-15 million a pop i often wondered if it was even worth the time spent.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Roughly broken down, we have
"should people be allowed to choose how they spend their own hard earned currency even if that mean being scammed"
Since we have extremely kind folks that donate access to their bases to anyone, the answers become
- "no one *should* be dumb enough to pay for access to something that is free"
- "people *should* be allowed to make their own (possibly foolish) decisions with their resources
which are at odds with each other. Choosing either answer excludes the other one, but both answers are valid.
(*** This excludes buying ships. Ships cost the fleet providing access resources and payment there is reasonable. Free access to a ship is a BIG gift and very generous).
IS it a donation if you tell people HOW much to donate? That's like going to church and saying God want's you to donate...100 dollars! lol
Why can't we say NoP Public Service? ...censorship?
This is correct and the way it works
But the person looking for the gear has to be in a ( fleet ) with the correct provisions in stock in their fleet which can really mess up the little fleet bad example
your tiny fleet just finished a locater project at your spire....5 locator consoles are available but your fleet leader has store access turned off because the agreement was a certian person gets those consoles because he footed the bill to put them in the store
(You) pop over to as friends starbase and buy those consoles with a map invite removing those consoles from your bases store
Now the person who put those consoles in your fleets store is Shafted because ( you ) stole his hard work
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If you require to join their fleet temporary to buy a fleet ship, I think its only fair to have to pay as it's costing their fleet's resources for you. Also, if you don't have a fleet but want fleet gear and have to join a fleet to get it, a payment is not out of the question. It's only fair.
EDIT: You should always check with your fleet leader if its okay to use fleet provisions.
if your fleet leader disables store access for you they not only lock the store, they lock away the provisions. you will not be able to use those provisions at any store you are invited to.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
But at the same time, a little donation towards one of their projects, or a little EC to their Fleet Bank isn't unreasonable (as long as they aren't asking for 10mil +)
Just as a way of saying thanks.
HOWEVER, make your own channel to advertise your service.
Don't go to any of the existing channels and expect to ignore their rules.
Fleets who give away free access should also be allowed to do so. And I personally thank them
1: If your fleet works hard to get to tier 5 and have lots of provisions, yet someone is looking to get access to a Tier 5 Store, yet he/she is on a fleet that is Tier 1 and has no provisions. He/she must join your fleet and use YOUR Fleet's provisions which your members worked for. It is as simple as saying, you work hard on making a cake and you give it away free.
~ In this situation I do believe Fleets that give access to Tier 5 Stores, but the invitee uses inviters' own provisions, Yes, The fleet is in it's soul right to charge access.
2: If your fleet works hard to get to tier 5 and you have lots of provisions, yet someone is looking to get access to a Tier 5 Store, yet he/she is on a fleet that is tier 3/4 and has provisions. He/she can get an invite to the Tier 5 Store and buy what'ever using the invitee's own provisions. (Note - Provisions can be locked by Fleet Leaders and prevents the invitee on buying provisions even if he is in a T5 Store.
~ In this situation I do believe Fleets that give access to Tier 5 Stores, but the invitee uses his/her own provisions, No, The Fleet should not charge.
~ But then again it is debatable to charge the "Access" (Invite) to store. in this case, you can leave it at Fleet leader and Officer's discretion.
However, all of this can be categorized as scamming, but the simple answer is no, it is not scamming, if a Fleet wishes to charge in order to give access to their stores, it is in their soul discretion. If the one requiring access to the store does not like the idea of being charged, oh well...
1) Fleet access given in the form on an invite to a fleet holding map should not be charged because the invited party is required to use their own fleet's provisions not the invitee's. If you offer to let someone join your fleet to get those provisions thats on you and however you want to do it.
2) The fleet leaders are the ones who choose how to deal with their access privalages and store access. If the fleet leaders decide to open the doors for free then they have their reasons and it's what ends up happening.
Take what my fleet is doing currently. We are working up the sb and all the holdings currently and we are using all resources at our disposal to do it. after were done I plan to open it up to everyone in NoP Public Service. People cant owe me or my fleet for us wanting our sb at top tier, but they can want access to it, which doesn't affect my fleet's provisions at all. So what do I have that I could rightfully charge for? ...Nothing except for fleet ships. Even then I won't charge for them because its silly.
It is however if the person is using the NOP public service channel to get people to come to their base. That channel was set up specifically to give free access to fleet holdings. If you advertise your base or invite people who are asking in that channel you do not charge.
Outside of that channel it is, as I said earlier, the choice of the fleet whether or not to charge.
All I want is a Yellowstone for my Jem Dreadnought and RCS.
I removed it from my try because I was being ignored from November 2013 - Mid February 2014.
The issue is not itself with in the NoP Service Channel but as a general topic that hits zone chat... and I do agree with you, if a player is selling access in NoP by all right he should be kicked, as NoP is a Free Service Channel, however I still hold my 2 points of view in the situation, where indirect or directly related to granting access to Stores...
Outside of NoP, or more so, in zone chat, why should a player be flagged as Scam when all he/she is doing, is selling access to his fleet's stores, after working hard to obtain them in the 1st place... If someone wishes to get access to the stores and is desperate to get access, and does not know about NoP, why should the one granting access get flag as a scammer?
Also, too keep in mind, there is nothing on the EULA about selling access to stores, if selling access to stores, is against the EULA, then by all sakes, why do we have an exchange. Taking this in mind and going back to the OP or some other post with-in this thread, No, no one selling access to stores should be flagged as a scammer...
Again it all lies on the one Needing the Access!!! and How bad he needs the access... taking in consideration Fleet Provisions both from invitee and inviter.
Also. I'll put this out there...
If you are seeking access to my Stores, but you have provisions, I'll happily grant you access, but when you join my fleet and need my provisions, then YES, I'll charge you... I give access on NoP Public Service for free,... Outside of NoP if I get asked for access. I charge whether you use your own provisions or mine, but again, I wont charge more than 10+M, 10+ is just way to much to grant access...
Again, it is all on the Fleet Leader's discretion...
Correct! ^^^
I only learned about this after the NoP Public Service channel went up when one of their guys told me. Confirmed it when making a purchase and seeing my fleet's provision numbers getting affected.
And so what happens when you don't have provisions in your fleet and you join another fleet and use theirs???