Just out of curiosity here, what was wrong with The Motion Picture?
Personally, I don't think there was anything really wrong with it. It just felt... meh. That's the only ST film I really found 'meh'. If I had to find any fault with it, I'd say it was slow, but that's it.
1: II: Wrath of Khan. Because KKKHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And Ricardo Montalban. And Ham-to-Ham Combat between Kirk and Khan. Epicness incarnate.
2: VI: Undiscovered Country. Because f*cking awesome acting.
3: IV: Voyage Home (Save the whales, yay!)
4: III: Search for Spock
5: TMP. This thing's just embarrassing.
6: V: What the f*ck does God need with a starship?
TNG:
Best: First Contact. Alice Krige can assimilate me any day of the week...
Not so great but really fun: Insurrection. I have a soft spot for it.
Painful: Generations (sons of b*tches killed Captain Kirk!)
What the hell were they even thinking?: Nemesis (Seriously, what the actual f*ck? The Scimitar is sweet, but the rest of it MAKES NO SENSE.)
JJCrapverse:
Slightly less-awful: Into Whiteness. Khan is really well-acted, Leonard Nimoy has a good cameo, the protagonists minus Kirk and Love Interest Blonde aren't that bad, but the rest of the movie sucks big-time.
OMG WTF were they thinking?: ST: 2009. This thing was just pathetic.
Well if you watched all of TOS it is kinda hard to complain about weak looking Klingons from TMP.
How was the storyline bad? Or was the whole movie simply too intelligently written for most of the modern audience?
In fairness, zek, it wasn't the best storyline in Trek (though it certainly wasn't the worst *cough* ST:2009 *cough*). I liked the story though. I just felt it wasn't the best film. As I said, I found it 'meh...'
In fairness, zek, it wasn't the best storyline in Trek (though it certainly wasn't the worst *cough* ST:2009 *cough*). I liked the story though. I just felt it wasn't the best film. As I said, I found it 'meh...'
The only thing that I didn't really like about it is that is was somewhat slow before Spock came on board.
Remarkably this hasn't really turned into an 'I hate JJ thread' .
Well done everybody :P.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I hope not, we're all having so much fun bashing TMP .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Well if you watched all of TOS it is kinda hard to complain about weak looking Klingons from TMP.
How was the storyline bad? Or was the whole movie simply too intelligently written for most of the modern audience?
Weak Klingons? Given that their only screen time was fighting V'Ger, those pansies. Personally, TMP was the most Trek out of any movie. Kirk and Crew saved Earth with no violence what so ever, but using their intellect. No other Trek movie has done that and no Trek movie will do that unless there is a change in movie-going culture.
In conversely, I think TWOK was a meh movie. Khan was a very one dimensional villian, but in terms of characterization for the rest of the crew, it was good in that aspect.
TMP's problem is it's a padded out pilot script from "Phase 2". Let's put it this way; TMP and STID have the same run time of just over 2 hours (132 min). If you watch both, TMP just feels longer because they spend too much time doing nothing.
That's why it's sometimes called "Star Trek: the Motionless Picture".
I think a lot of people's problems with ST09 and STID are that they're just different from what they think Star Trek should be. Mind you no one cares what you think Star Trek should be unless your name is Leslie Moonves.
Their purpose was to open the franchise to a new audience. To try to give it life again. There was a reason it was advertised as "Not Your Father's Star Trek". And guess what, they SUCCEDED! You're dragging them through the mud, yet the two of them earned nearly as much as the other 10 put together. ST09 has the highest rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. STID only falls behind WoK and FC on Rotten Tomatoes and has a narrow lead for second at Metacrtic.
So they made money and are well received. Think that's another problem. You're not happy that normal people went out and saw it in droves.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Weak Klingons? Given that their only screen time was fighting V'Ger, those pansies. Personally, TMP was the most Trek out of any movie. Kirk and Crew saved Earth with no violence what so ever, but using their intellect. No other Trek movie has done that and no Trek movie will do that unless there is a change in movie-going culture.
In conversely, I think TWOK was a meh movie. Khan was a very one dimensional villian, but in terms of characterization for the rest of the crew, it was good in that aspect.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like the movie-going culture is going to change anytime soon. TMP was an excellent piece of science fiction.
And as for TWOK I totally agree although it was a fun and entertaining movie.
TMP's problem is it's a padded out pilot script from "Phase 2". Let's put it this way; TMP and STID have the same run time of just over 2 hours (132 min). If you watch both, TMP just feels longer because they spend too much time doing nothing.
That's why it's sometimes called "Star Trek: the Motionless Picture".
I think a lot of people's problems with ST09 and STID are that they're just different from what they think Star Trek should be. Mind you no one cares what you think Star Trek should be unless your name is Leslie Moonves.
Their purpose was to open the franchise to a new audience. To try to give it life again. There was a reason it was advertised as "Not Your Father's Star Trek". And guess what, they SUCCEDED! You're dragging them through the mud, yet the two of them earned nearly as much as the other 10 put together. ST09 has the highest rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. STID only falls behind WoK and FC on Rotten Tomatoes and has a narrow lead for second at Metacrtic.
So they made money and are well received. Think that's another problem. You're not happy that normal people went out and saw it in droves.
Like all JJ fanboys, you're missing the point comically.
I have massive artistic issues with JJCrap. Also, I do not consider box office returns to be a measure of quality since the average viewer is frankly an idiot.
Like all JJ fanboys, you're missing the point comically.
I have massive artistic issues with JJCrap. Also, I do not consider box office returns to be a measure of quality since the average viewer is frankly an idiot.
TMP's problem is it's a padded out pilot script from "Phase 2". Let's put it this way; TMP and STID have the same run time of just over 2 hours (132 min). If you watch both, TMP just feels longer because they spend too much time doing nothing.
That's why it's sometimes called "Star Trek: the Motionless Picture".
I think a lot of people's problems with ST09 and STID are that they're just different from what they think Star Trek should be. Mind you no one cares what you think Star Trek should be unless your name is Leslie Moonves.
Their purpose was to open the franchise to a new audience. To try to give it life again. There was a reason it was advertised as "Not Your Father's Star Trek". And guess what, they SUCCEDED! You're dragging them through the mud, yet the two of them earned nearly as much as the other 10 put together. ST09 has the highest rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. STID only falls behind WoK and FC on Rotten Tomatoes and has a narrow lead for second at Metacrtic.
So they made money and are well received. Think that's another problem. You're not happy that normal people went out and saw it in droves.
If you take into account inflation, ST:ID and 09 earned a lot less money than you think they did.
Like all JJ fanboys, you're missing the point comically.
I have massive artistic issues with JJCrap. Also, I do not consider box office returns to be a measure of quality since the average viewer is frankly an idiot.
This.
In more simple words: The Jar Jar movies are dump movies. I would hate them no matter which franchise they are from. I just talk more about them because they use that title.
Wrath of Khan
First Contact
Voyage Home
Undiscovered Country
Star Trek 09 *Depends on the day for me as this and Search for Spock are almost tied.*
Worst *Includes those I found disappointing.*
Into Darkness: Reason- I was not only expecting something that would be original or at least tie in to one of the better Trek villains but something that could step up from 09 as they did have a good solid footing. Now, the mostly missed with this one. Action was perhaps the only plus I gave this movie and one of the few reasons I still watch it when I am bored. But the ill timed death scene that is a direct rip off as well as their poor use of Khan got me to hate a lot of parts of this movie. Anyway.. The action took up a lot of space in the film and did not pick a bad guy much like Iron Man 3 did. Which made the film utterly pointless. Though it is not the worst trek film.. Disappointing but not terrible. and I have seen plenty of terrible *shudders at the thought of Uwe Boll.*
Motion Picture: Reason- Its about 2 hours and 12 minutes and hardly anything of note happens. It really should have been scrapped.
Star Trek Insurrection: Reason- Like Motion Picture this one is utterly forgettable and down right boring. It would have made an interesting DS9 episode or something but again what were they thinking.
Star Trek Nemesis..: Reason- Only reason I watch this movie is to see the battle at the last 25% of this movie.
i'm one of the few people that actually liked nemesis... was it the best? no. but was it flawed? yes. but as a movie, it was awesome.
there's two ways to answer the question of which is the best. and that's through Trekky mind, and non-trekky mind. trekky mind is looking at everything from a super canon "this is how star trek is, and how all federation should act" steriotypish TRIBBLE. the non-trekky view is "i have no idea what star trek is, just watching this cause the trailer was cool".
trekky view:
best: first contact (the borg really felt like the worst enemy in the universe in this movie, which was the point.)
worst: the undiscovered country (seriously the plot of this felt like it jumped all over the place for no reason.)
non-trekky view:
best: nemesis (if you've never seen star trek before, watching the scimitar appear is like O.O)
worst: TMP (if you've never seen star trek before this is honestly boring and confusing no matter your IQ)
i'm one of the few people that actually liked nemesis... was it the best? no. but was it flawed? yes. but as a movie, it was awesome.
there's two ways to answer the question of which is the best. and that's through Trekky mind, and non-trekky mind. trekky mind is looking at everything from a super canon "this is how star trek is, and how all federation should act" steriotypish TRIBBLE. the non-trekky view is "i have no idea what star trek is, just watching this cause the trailer was cool".
trekky view:
best: first contact (the borg really felt like the worst enemy in the universe in this movie, which was the point.)
worst: the undiscovered country (seriously the plot of this felt like it jumped all over the place for no reason.)
non-trekky view:
best: nemesis (if you've never seen star trek before, watching the scimitar appear is like O.O)
worst: TMP (if you've never seen star trek before this is honestly boring and confusing no matter your IQ)
I saw Nemesis just yesterday.... And I have to say that movie has a few things going for it.
The basic plot was... not that bad, just badly executed.
The pace was really nice.
And the space battle was simply the best one we have seen in the franchise yet IMO. At least in terms of eye candy. That doesn't make a good movie, but it certainly does not hurt.
With a few less logic gaps and a far better actor for shinzon that thing might have worked...
Let me preface this by saying that the worst thing a book or movie can do (besides being deliberately insulting or crass just for the hell of it) is to not get me to care. Perfection is not required to get me to care...there has to be something there, but as a fanfic writer if I feel like I want to try to fix the flaws instead of trying to forget it exists, then at least something positive has been accomplished. That means my rankings are likely to surprise people and perhaps even offend the tastes of some. But so be it: what sparks my imagination and what does not are not anybody else's to determine.
But let's start with the best. There are two that tie for first place in my mind, listed in order of release:
--The Undiscovered Country: A sweeping political thriller, yet it never gets bogged down by the scale of it. It still stays personal. The mystery is well done, the clues well placed--not too obvious but not too obscure. It also represents a major turning point IMO for Spock's character where we begin for the first time to really believe he might be half human...a journey then completed in what some might consider the unlikeliest of places...
--First Contact: Not only an incredibly good, edge-of-your-seat action movie with a frightening enemy, but I even enjoy the humor of the Earth scenes. Future attempts to replicate this type of banter failed miserably in later TNG movies, but here they got it right. But the best part is watching Captain Self-Righteous get his comeuppance and be forced to realize that all the BS he spouted about human nature was just that: self-delusional BS. That was absolutely awesome.
It starts to get tougher for me after this point...
--The Wrath of Khan/The Search for Spock: I treat these two as one movie, and in that regard they are really good. I actually think the second of the two is stronger--it's particularly poignant to see DeForest Kelly's acting as a tormented version of McCoy with Spock in his mind. What keeps this out of the top spot is the lack of clarity in Khan's thinking: he is just NUTS by this time, to the point where even his crew knows it. Sometimes I think a villain is scarier if they are only JUST on the other side of the "crazy" line and they make you question yourself. This Khan does not accomplish that. Who does is likely a surprise for many of you...
--Generations: This movie suffers in production values compared to other TNG movies, and to some the death of Kirk is controversial. However, I consider this movie seriously underrated because when you really think about it, it takes on some serious philosophical questions without being as heavy handed as many episodes of TNG are. It would not be appropriate to debate this here, but IMO one must think about whether eternity without redemption is worth the price. And to get me thinking in that direction without beating me over the head with it...that was not a frequent accomplishment for TNG, so it's one I commend.
--The Voyage Home: It does make a nice continuation to the second and third movies, and can be quite funny...but it gets too heavy-handed with the environmentalism and some of the humor is dated and IMO not as likely to stand as a timeless movie as the ones higher on the list. But as a character piece, and a light comedy movie, it is enjoyable and rewatchable to a certain generation (myself included).
--Star Trek XI and Into Darkness: These movies have a lot of awesome action, and some extremely compelling, powerful scenes (the big death scenes in particular), and very much succeed in keeping me watching. We get some real treats like seeing what I consider to be the final resolution of the Prime Spock's character arc (he really, truly is half-Vulcan, half-human at last), and a version of Khan that really forces you to think about the reasons for his actions. I wanted to get in his head and explore what was going on, whereas I do not feel so compelled by the TWOK version, who has no ambiguity at all. And we get Pike finally allows to live and die in a manner that just feels so much more right...making him the one character who really wins in this universe. In my opinion that sense of loss we feel, comparing the characters here to the prime universe, is not necessarily a bad thing and even a legitimate theme worthy of exploration. Yes--Kirk DID lose a lot compared to the prime version. That, I think, is a loss we are supposed to feel, that he cannot be the man we know he has potential to be . And that theme of loss and violation is one that as a fanfic writer has kept me coming back. The major detractors, however, are everything to do with the Spock/Uhura relationship (disgraceful, classless, tasteless, for both, and should have gotten Spock court-martialed), the fact that it took the comics to explain what happened to Khan's appearance when that absolutely NEEDED to be onscreen to avoid creating an insulting inconsistency (heck, even I as a non-professional writer proved that it works thematically--yet another violation committed by Admiral Marcus), and the fact that Scotty's characterization bears no relation to the man we saw in TOS. Remedy these three specific items and these two movies would be moving significantly higher on my list. But the fact that I still care shows that something about them DID succeed.
--Nemesis: The books showed that this one had more potential than we actually saw in the movie--both the movie novelization itself, and several other novels written later to show the history of the Romulans and Remans. STO has actually done well with the premise, too. And as far as the movie, it's one I enjoy going back to for the battles, and for the final resolution it gives to several plot threads: Riker and Troi's marriage, Riker taking command, Picard seeing (yet again) that he ought not put himself too high on a pedestal because he too had the potential to act in a horrible manner. But the B4 plotline was painful to watch sometimes, and I think as the books show, scenes were cut out that really would have made it flow better. Still, I do find it rewatchable and enjoyed writing some fanfic to try to fill in the gaps in Romulan/Reman history. Heck, even the relationship between my Reman captain and her version of Tovan Khev (and the characterization I felt was necessary for Khev in particular) trace back to Nemesis.
There were three movies, however, that committed the cardinal sin of making me not care. It's hard to say which is the worst, though I did eventually settle on a true Razzie winner.
--The Final Frontier: This one at least has me morbidly curious enough to consider watching it one more time...and at least I know something will actually happen at the end. That said, though, there are enough cringeworthy moments that I don't think it's likely to be an enjoyable experience.
--The Motion Picture: From a cinematography standpoint, this one may be pretty good for its time, and if I were watching JUST for that, it could be interesting. However, I could not make myself care about the slow plot and the flat characters that only got flatter when V'Ger got involved. Yawn.
But the WORST among these stinkers has to be the movie that, when the projector screwed up for ten minutes near the end of the movie in the theater, I found I actually didn't care about what I might be missing. The Worst Trek POS award goes to...
--Insurrection (in my mind, Indigestion): Boob jokes. Zit jokes. Data as a flotation device. Sex jokes. I can actually excuse that more in the Abramsverse because it is a whole other universe. Coming from the TNG characters, it was absolutely cringeworthy. And the plot...the Fountain of Youth? That is actually worse than what The Final Frontier did. I happen to agree with Picard that it was not worth evicting the Ba'ku, but for a different reason: as I mentioned in my Generations review, I have yet to be convinced of the therapeutic benefits of immortality. The flesh may be willing, but the spirit, in this world, is weak. The end result would be madness. Study the place, sure, to see if anything could be found for curing serious illness, but I am not convinced the human condition is or ever will be prepared for more. But the other awful thing about this movie: it had so little connection to the Dominion War! Honestly, what we really should have had at this point was an epic DS9 movie, something that advanced the plot of the franchise, instead of being forced to explain why Picard was apparently being put out to pasture rather than at the center of the action.
I know my list is likely to ruffle feathers--especially suggesting the JJVerse movies were only a few key flaws away from going higher on the list, and did things better in any area than most fans' precious TWOK. But it's a matter of personal opinion.
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Which Star Trek movie do you think was the best and which one was the worst. There are so many bad ones it is hard to tell.
I think the best was The Motion Picture because it was intelligently written and had intelligent science fiction, not just a typical Hollywood style movie. But unfortunately it was too intelligent for the audience so they so called nerfed star trek. The movie actually followed the traditional style of Star trek too.
The worst in my opinion was The Undiscovered Country. General Chang ruined it for me with his annoying Skakesphere quotes.
I'm with you on ST:TMP. In my opinion the best of the Trek movies. Like you it seems to me that this movie was more like the original Trek than any subsequent movie. I love the uniforms (though could have wished for them to stay with the original color scheme and brighter colors) not least of all because I prefer "rank on the sleeve", aka "scrambled eggs". That method of display of rank has a long history in both military and merchant/non-military applications whereas pips on the collar are usually found only in a military organization.
I also prefer their portrayal of the Klingons. As usual, over time, the Klingons became more and more humanized until they were simply variations on a human theme rather than truly alien/non-terran. Though they had only a brief appearance in TMP the nature of their physical appearance as well as their actions could have been built into a more non-human portrayal than what we ended up with.
WORST, though, IMO would have to be ST: Into Darkness. That will likely be the one Star Trek movie I will never watch again. As bad as some of them are they are at least watchable on a repeat basis. That one was simply too horrible. I could write a book about what's wrong with that movie and how it represents a new low for Star Trek in general but others already have. What makes it worse is that most of the cast are really good... it's not the fault of the actors. Abrams had a cast and crew that could have delivered a first rate movie... what he lacks is vision, understanding and writers who can write above the level of sitcom.:mad:
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
Like all JJ fanboys, you're missing the point comically.
I have massive artistic issues with JJCrap. Also, I do not consider box office returns to be a measure of quality since the average viewer is frankly an idiot.
Liking something does not mean not being able to see the flaws, and assuming that's how it is for everyone is quite patronizing. Not only am I not an idiot but understanding what some of the flaws are has allowed me to explore them as a writer. I am not a professional, but I am also not stupid.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Liking something does not mean not being able to see the flaws, and assuming that's how it is for everyone is quite patronizing. Not only am I not an idiot but understanding what some of the flaws are has allowed me to explore them as a writer. I am not a professional, but I am also not stupid.
--Not talking to you in that comment, not insulting you at all.
--One can ENJOY JJCrap without being a fanboy who gets insulted at every criticism of JJ's artistic incompetence. Hell, I had a great time at Into Darkness. Sure, the plot was a railroad, and the underwear scene made me roll my eyes, but Benedict Cumberbatch was on FIRE and the action was (despite the annoying lens flare) rather well-executed.
Frankly, it was a fun movie, despite the fact that artistically it's a piece of sh*t.
I'm with you on ST:TMP. In my opinion the best of the Trek movies. Like you it seems to me that this movie was more like the original Trek than any subsequent movie. I love the uniforms (though could have wished for them to stay with the original color scheme and brighter colors) not least of all because I prefer "rank on the sleeve", aka "scrambled eggs". That method of display of rank has a long history in both military and merchant/non-military applications whereas pips on the collar are usually found only in a military organization.
I also prefer their portrayal of the Klingons. As usual, over time, the Klingons became more and more humanized until they were simply variations on a human theme rather than truly alien/non-terran. Though they had only a brief appearance in TMP the nature of their physical appearance as well as their actions could have been built into a more non-human portrayal than what we ended up with.
WORST, though, IMO would have to be ST: Into Darkness. That will likely be the one Star Trek movie I will never watch again. As bad as some of them are they are at least watchable on a repeat basis. That one was simply too horrible. I could write a book about what's wrong with that movie and how it represents a new low for Star Trek in general but others already have. What makes it worse is that most of the cast are really good... it's not the fault of the actors. Abrams had a cast and crew that could have delivered a first rate movie... what he lacks is vision, understanding and writers who can write above the level of sitcom.:mad:
Finally I found someone who can appreciate a good movie!
I have enjoyed reading through this thread as I have been thinking about some of the movies today. Before I put up my list, I want to preface this by saying that one thing I love is there is something in each movie that appeals to everyone. I also want to say I do like them all but definitely have my favorites and least favorites.
Best to worst.
6, 8, 4, 9, 2, 11, 10, 12, 7, 5, 1, 3.
Other thoughts. I have had a few issues with into darkness that to me made the movie sloppy. The ultra long transporter, seriously why have starships, and the klingon home world isn't spelled chronos, and grrr the worst one is spock should have never EVER yelled Khan. That should have only ever been Shatner's line. Also I am hoping the obsession with Leonard Nemoy ends with this movie. And the next one won't be titled the obsession with spock.
Also I would truly love to see nemesis with all the deleted scenes added back in. I bet it would improve the movie so much. If anyone knows of a fan edit that has this let me know.
In some of the not as good movies still have a few highlights for me. When Kirk tells Spock he's going to knock him on his @ss is pretty funny to me. Also what does God need with a starship? Classic! The singing of a British tar was pretty funny in insurrection. But I do enjoy the one liners and humor that are in a majority of star trek movies.
Edit: Forgot to mention I wish that Christophers Lloyd and Plummer could have switched roles. I think that Lloyd was one of the best klingons in the series and I think he would have been a better Chang.
TMP's problem is it's a padded out pilot script from "Phase 2". Let's put it this way; TMP and STID have the same run time of just over 2 hours (132 min). If you watch both, TMP just feels longer because they spend too much time doing nothing.
That's why it's sometimes called "Star Trek: the Motionless Picture".
I think a lot of people's problems with ST09 and STID are that they're just different from what they think Star Trek should be. Mind you no one cares what you think Star Trek should be unless your name is Leslie Moonves.
Their purpose was to open the franchise to a new audience. To try to give it life again. There was a reason it was advertised as "Not Your Father's Star Trek". And guess what, they SUCCEDED! You're dragging them through the mud, yet the two of them earned nearly as much as the other 10 put together. ST09 has the highest rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. STID only falls behind WoK and FC on Rotten Tomatoes and has a narrow lead for second at Metacrtic.
So they made money and are well received. Think that's another problem. You're not happy that normal people went out and saw it in droves.
It's not a 'padded out script from Phase II' per se - (and yes, I realize the VGer designation was from the aborted Star Trek: Phase II pilot script) - ST:TMP is basically a remake of the TOS second season episode "The Changeling" - which MANY TOS fans at the time (including me) noticed; and that detracted from the film for me, as I was hoping to see something new, and not a retread with admittedly nice visual effects.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Comments
Personally, I don't think there was anything really wrong with it. It just felt... meh. That's the only ST film I really found 'meh'. If I had to find any fault with it, I'd say it was slow, but that's it.
"Meh"...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Lol. Where to start? Veger being one. The myth mill says verger is Borg mommy.
Bad story line and weak looking Klingon's.
Next?
TOS:
1: II: Wrath of Khan. Because KKKHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And Ricardo Montalban. And Ham-to-Ham Combat between Kirk and Khan. Epicness incarnate.
2: VI: Undiscovered Country. Because f*cking awesome acting.
3: IV: Voyage Home (Save the whales, yay!)
4: III: Search for Spock
5: TMP. This thing's just embarrassing.
6: V: What the f*ck does God need with a starship?
TNG:
Best: First Contact. Alice Krige can assimilate me any day of the week...
Not so great but really fun: Insurrection. I have a soft spot for it.
Painful: Generations (sons of b*tches killed Captain Kirk!)
What the hell were they even thinking?: Nemesis (Seriously, what the actual f*ck? The Scimitar is sweet, but the rest of it MAKES NO SENSE.)
JJCrapverse:
Slightly less-awful: Into Whiteness. Khan is really well-acted, Leonard Nimoy has a good cameo, the protagonists minus Kirk and Love Interest Blonde aren't that bad, but the rest of the movie sucks big-time.
OMG WTF were they thinking?: ST: 2009. This thing was just pathetic.
Well if you watched all of TOS it is kinda hard to complain about weak looking Klingons from TMP.
How was the storyline bad? Or was the whole movie simply too intelligently written for most of the modern audience?
In fairness, zek, it wasn't the best storyline in Trek (though it certainly wasn't the worst *cough* ST:2009 *cough*). I liked the story though. I just felt it wasn't the best film. As I said, I found it 'meh...'
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The only thing that I didn't really like about it is that is was somewhat slow before Spock came on board.
Well done everybody :P.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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*Bows*
Thank you! Thank you! You're too kind!
(You realise you just jinxed it, right?)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I hope not, we're all having so much fun bashing TMP
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Weak Klingons? Given that their only screen time was fighting V'Ger, those pansies. Personally, TMP was the most Trek out of any movie. Kirk and Crew saved Earth with no violence what so ever, but using their intellect. No other Trek movie has done that and no Trek movie will do that unless there is a change in movie-going culture.
In conversely, I think TWOK was a meh movie. Khan was a very one dimensional villian, but in terms of characterization for the rest of the crew, it was good in that aspect.
That's why it's sometimes called "Star Trek: the Motionless Picture".
I think a lot of people's problems with ST09 and STID are that they're just different from what they think Star Trek should be. Mind you no one cares what you think Star Trek should be unless your name is Leslie Moonves.
Their purpose was to open the franchise to a new audience. To try to give it life again. There was a reason it was advertised as "Not Your Father's Star Trek". And guess what, they SUCCEDED! You're dragging them through the mud, yet the two of them earned nearly as much as the other 10 put together. ST09 has the highest rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. STID only falls behind WoK and FC on Rotten Tomatoes and has a narrow lead for second at Metacrtic.
So they made money and are well received. Think that's another problem. You're not happy that normal people went out and saw it in droves.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Unfortunately it doesn't look like the movie-going culture is going to change anytime soon. TMP was an excellent piece of science fiction.
And as for TWOK I totally agree although it was a fun and entertaining movie.
Like all JJ fanboys, you're missing the point comically.
I have massive artistic issues with JJCrap. Also, I do not consider box office returns to be a measure of quality since the average viewer is frankly an idiot.
Welcome to the 21st century.....:rolleyes:
If you take into account inflation, ST:ID and 09 earned a lot less money than you think they did.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Worst: Nemesis.
This.
In more simple words: The Jar Jar movies are dump movies. I would hate them no matter which franchise they are from. I just talk more about them because they use that title.
Top Star Trek films
Wrath of Khan
First Contact
Voyage Home
Undiscovered Country
Star Trek 09 *Depends on the day for me as this and Search for Spock are almost tied.*
Worst *Includes those I found disappointing.*
Into Darkness: Reason- I was not only expecting something that would be original or at least tie in to one of the better Trek villains but something that could step up from 09 as they did have a good solid footing. Now, the mostly missed with this one. Action was perhaps the only plus I gave this movie and one of the few reasons I still watch it when I am bored. But the ill timed death scene that is a direct rip off as well as their poor use of Khan got me to hate a lot of parts of this movie. Anyway.. The action took up a lot of space in the film and did not pick a bad guy much like Iron Man 3 did. Which made the film utterly pointless. Though it is not the worst trek film.. Disappointing but not terrible. and I have seen plenty of terrible *shudders at the thought of Uwe Boll.*
Motion Picture: Reason- Its about 2 hours and 12 minutes and hardly anything of note happens. It really should have been scrapped.
Star Trek Insurrection: Reason- Like Motion Picture this one is utterly forgettable and down right boring. It would have made an interesting DS9 episode or something but again what were they thinking.
Star Trek Nemesis..: Reason- Only reason I watch this movie is to see the battle at the last 25% of this movie.
there's two ways to answer the question of which is the best. and that's through Trekky mind, and non-trekky mind. trekky mind is looking at everything from a super canon "this is how star trek is, and how all federation should act" steriotypish TRIBBLE. the non-trekky view is "i have no idea what star trek is, just watching this cause the trailer was cool".
trekky view:
best: first contact (the borg really felt like the worst enemy in the universe in this movie, which was the point.)
worst: the undiscovered country (seriously the plot of this felt like it jumped all over the place for no reason.)
non-trekky view:
best: nemesis (if you've never seen star trek before, watching the scimitar appear is like O.O)
worst: TMP (if you've never seen star trek before this is honestly boring and confusing no matter your IQ)
I saw Nemesis just yesterday.... And I have to say that movie has a few things going for it.
The basic plot was... not that bad, just badly executed.
The pace was really nice.
And the space battle was simply the best one we have seen in the franchise yet IMO. At least in terms of eye candy. That doesn't make a good movie, but it certainly does not hurt.
With a few less logic gaps and a far better actor for shinzon that thing might have worked...
But let's start with the best. There are two that tie for first place in my mind, listed in order of release:
--The Undiscovered Country: A sweeping political thriller, yet it never gets bogged down by the scale of it. It still stays personal. The mystery is well done, the clues well placed--not too obvious but not too obscure. It also represents a major turning point IMO for Spock's character where we begin for the first time to really believe he might be half human...a journey then completed in what some might consider the unlikeliest of places...
--First Contact: Not only an incredibly good, edge-of-your-seat action movie with a frightening enemy, but I even enjoy the humor of the Earth scenes. Future attempts to replicate this type of banter failed miserably in later TNG movies, but here they got it right. But the best part is watching Captain Self-Righteous get his comeuppance and be forced to realize that all the BS he spouted about human nature was just that: self-delusional BS. That was absolutely awesome.
It starts to get tougher for me after this point...
--The Wrath of Khan/The Search for Spock: I treat these two as one movie, and in that regard they are really good. I actually think the second of the two is stronger--it's particularly poignant to see DeForest Kelly's acting as a tormented version of McCoy with Spock in his mind. What keeps this out of the top spot is the lack of clarity in Khan's thinking: he is just NUTS by this time, to the point where even his crew knows it. Sometimes I think a villain is scarier if they are only JUST on the other side of the "crazy" line and they make you question yourself. This Khan does not accomplish that. Who does is likely a surprise for many of you...
--Generations: This movie suffers in production values compared to other TNG movies, and to some the death of Kirk is controversial. However, I consider this movie seriously underrated because when you really think about it, it takes on some serious philosophical questions without being as heavy handed as many episodes of TNG are. It would not be appropriate to debate this here, but IMO one must think about whether eternity without redemption is worth the price. And to get me thinking in that direction without beating me over the head with it...that was not a frequent accomplishment for TNG, so it's one I commend.
--The Voyage Home: It does make a nice continuation to the second and third movies, and can be quite funny...but it gets too heavy-handed with the environmentalism and some of the humor is dated and IMO not as likely to stand as a timeless movie as the ones higher on the list. But as a character piece, and a light comedy movie, it is enjoyable and rewatchable to a certain generation (myself included).
--Star Trek XI and Into Darkness: These movies have a lot of awesome action, and some extremely compelling, powerful scenes (the big death scenes in particular), and very much succeed in keeping me watching. We get some real treats like seeing what I consider to be the final resolution of the Prime Spock's character arc (he really, truly is half-Vulcan, half-human at last), and a version of Khan that really forces you to think about the reasons for his actions. I wanted to get in his head and explore what was going on, whereas I do not feel so compelled by the TWOK version, who has no ambiguity at all. And we get Pike finally allows to live and die in a manner that just feels so much more right...making him the one character who really wins in this universe. In my opinion that sense of loss we feel, comparing the characters here to the prime universe, is not necessarily a bad thing and even a legitimate theme worthy of exploration. Yes--Kirk DID lose a lot compared to the prime version. That, I think, is a loss we are supposed to feel, that he cannot be the man we know he has potential to be . And that theme of loss and violation is one that as a fanfic writer has kept me coming back. The major detractors, however, are everything to do with the Spock/Uhura relationship (disgraceful, classless, tasteless, for both, and should have gotten Spock court-martialed), the fact that it took the comics to explain what happened to Khan's appearance when that absolutely NEEDED to be onscreen to avoid creating an insulting inconsistency (heck, even I as a non-professional writer proved that it works thematically--yet another violation committed by Admiral Marcus), and the fact that Scotty's characterization bears no relation to the man we saw in TOS. Remedy these three specific items and these two movies would be moving significantly higher on my list. But the fact that I still care shows that something about them DID succeed.
--Nemesis: The books showed that this one had more potential than we actually saw in the movie--both the movie novelization itself, and several other novels written later to show the history of the Romulans and Remans. STO has actually done well with the premise, too. And as far as the movie, it's one I enjoy going back to for the battles, and for the final resolution it gives to several plot threads: Riker and Troi's marriage, Riker taking command, Picard seeing (yet again) that he ought not put himself too high on a pedestal because he too had the potential to act in a horrible manner. But the B4 plotline was painful to watch sometimes, and I think as the books show, scenes were cut out that really would have made it flow better. Still, I do find it rewatchable and enjoyed writing some fanfic to try to fill in the gaps in Romulan/Reman history. Heck, even the relationship between my Reman captain and her version of Tovan Khev (and the characterization I felt was necessary for Khev in particular) trace back to Nemesis.
There were three movies, however, that committed the cardinal sin of making me not care. It's hard to say which is the worst, though I did eventually settle on a true Razzie winner.
--The Final Frontier: This one at least has me morbidly curious enough to consider watching it one more time...and at least I know something will actually happen at the end. That said, though, there are enough cringeworthy moments that I don't think it's likely to be an enjoyable experience.
--The Motion Picture: From a cinematography standpoint, this one may be pretty good for its time, and if I were watching JUST for that, it could be interesting. However, I could not make myself care about the slow plot and the flat characters that only got flatter when V'Ger got involved. Yawn.
But the WORST among these stinkers has to be the movie that, when the projector screwed up for ten minutes near the end of the movie in the theater, I found I actually didn't care about what I might be missing. The Worst Trek POS award goes to...
--Insurrection (in my mind, Indigestion): Boob jokes. Zit jokes. Data as a flotation device. Sex jokes. I can actually excuse that more in the Abramsverse because it is a whole other universe. Coming from the TNG characters, it was absolutely cringeworthy. And the plot...the Fountain of Youth? That is actually worse than what The Final Frontier did. I happen to agree with Picard that it was not worth evicting the Ba'ku, but for a different reason: as I mentioned in my Generations review, I have yet to be convinced of the therapeutic benefits of immortality. The flesh may be willing, but the spirit, in this world, is weak. The end result would be madness. Study the place, sure, to see if anything could be found for curing serious illness, but I am not convinced the human condition is or ever will be prepared for more. But the other awful thing about this movie: it had so little connection to the Dominion War! Honestly, what we really should have had at this point was an epic DS9 movie, something that advanced the plot of the franchise, instead of being forced to explain why Picard was apparently being put out to pasture rather than at the center of the action.
I know my list is likely to ruffle feathers--especially suggesting the JJVerse movies were only a few key flaws away from going higher on the list, and did things better in any area than most fans' precious TWOK. But it's a matter of personal opinion.
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I'm with you on ST:TMP. In my opinion the best of the Trek movies. Like you it seems to me that this movie was more like the original Trek than any subsequent movie. I love the uniforms (though could have wished for them to stay with the original color scheme and brighter colors) not least of all because I prefer "rank on the sleeve", aka "scrambled eggs". That method of display of rank has a long history in both military and merchant/non-military applications whereas pips on the collar are usually found only in a military organization.
I also prefer their portrayal of the Klingons. As usual, over time, the Klingons became more and more humanized until they were simply variations on a human theme rather than truly alien/non-terran. Though they had only a brief appearance in TMP the nature of their physical appearance as well as their actions could have been built into a more non-human portrayal than what we ended up with.
WORST, though, IMO would have to be ST: Into Darkness. That will likely be the one Star Trek movie I will never watch again. As bad as some of them are they are at least watchable on a repeat basis. That one was simply too horrible. I could write a book about what's wrong with that movie and how it represents a new low for Star Trek in general but others already have. What makes it worse is that most of the cast are really good... it's not the fault of the actors. Abrams had a cast and crew that could have delivered a first rate movie... what he lacks is vision, understanding and writers who can write above the level of sitcom.:mad:
Liking something does not mean not being able to see the flaws, and assuming that's how it is for everyone is quite patronizing. Not only am I not an idiot but understanding what some of the flaws are has allowed me to explore them as a writer. I am not a professional, but I am also not stupid.
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--Not talking to you in that comment, not insulting you at all.
--One can ENJOY JJCrap without being a fanboy who gets insulted at every criticism of JJ's artistic incompetence. Hell, I had a great time at Into Darkness. Sure, the plot was a railroad, and the underwear scene made me roll my eyes, but Benedict Cumberbatch was on FIRE and the action was (despite the annoying lens flare) rather well-executed.
Frankly, it was a fun movie, despite the fact that artistically it's a piece of sh*t.
Finally I found someone who can appreciate a good movie!
I never said TMP was a bad movie; I just said that I found it slow.
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Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Only a couple parts were slow but your right on that part.
Best to worst.
6, 8, 4, 9, 2, 11, 10, 12, 7, 5, 1, 3.
Other thoughts. I have had a few issues with into darkness that to me made the movie sloppy. The ultra long transporter, seriously why have starships, and the klingon home world isn't spelled chronos, and grrr the worst one is spock should have never EVER yelled Khan. That should have only ever been Shatner's line. Also I am hoping the obsession with Leonard Nemoy ends with this movie. And the next one won't be titled the obsession with spock.
Also I would truly love to see nemesis with all the deleted scenes added back in. I bet it would improve the movie so much. If anyone knows of a fan edit that has this let me know.
In some of the not as good movies still have a few highlights for me. When Kirk tells Spock he's going to knock him on his @ss is pretty funny to me. Also what does God need with a starship? Classic! The singing of a British tar was pretty funny in insurrection. But I do enjoy the one liners and humor that are in a majority of star trek movies.
Edit: Forgot to mention I wish that Christophers Lloyd and Plummer could have switched roles. I think that Lloyd was one of the best klingons in the series and I think he would have been a better Chang.
It's not a 'padded out script from Phase II' per se - (and yes, I realize the VGer designation was from the aborted Star Trek: Phase II pilot script) - ST:TMP is basically a remake of the TOS second season episode "The Changeling" - which MANY TOS fans at the time (including me) noticed; and that detracted from the film for me, as I was hoping to see something new, and not a retread with admittedly nice visual effects.
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