If the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser, which has a cloak and SENSOR ANALYSIS, can have 3 cruiser commands the D'deridex and Ha'apax can have the same. BTW the Adapted BC will be a beast with the sensor analysis changes in the works.
if rom sci ships have SA, subsystem targeting, and secondary deflectors like any other sci ships, the d'deridex should have battle cruiser console commands, and the hap'pax should have all 4 cruiser commands
The Dyson ships aren't classified as warbirds btw. and the Adapted Battle Cruiser is a Cruiser, he doesn't have a singularity core.
Warbird is the equivalent of saying ship for the federation. People are getting too hung up on that term. Some warbirds are escorts like the dhlean, some are sci warbirds like the ha'nom, some are destroyers like the valdore and some are cruisers like the D'deridex and Ha'apax. Cruiser, escort and science are roles and every fleet has ships that fill those rolls. Warbird is just factional flavor.
Singularities are paid for with the 40 power tax so no more with the but..but..but it has a singularity! -40 power is a lot in a game where power means power!
As for the battle cloak, the lock box ship has a adapted cloak, but that is more than made up with the ship having sensor analysis which is really good on a 8 weapon ship and will be amazing after the S9 buff to sa.
Finally, even in game it is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser.
Its actually has both cruiser and warbird in its name, oh noes!
bigger WITH Bigger wings don't you know anything about space travel
It would be all about the power to mass ratio effecting any given part of the ship. That and its ability to keep itself in one piece while forcing a change in acceleration would determine how fast a ship could turn.
The problem is the MU, not the ships. HALF the sci ships are carriers (if it has 6 weapons and aux power bonus, its a sci ship...) and those cannot close rifts properly. Rom "cruisers" (whatever that means... 8 weapons and engineer CMDR? Cause it sure does not mean cruiser commands..) get the shaft and are the only ones unable to power the stations.
A simple change should be made to fix the issue:
-- engineer captain, powers station faster
-- sci captain, closes rifts faster
-- tac captain: all aoe skills last 4x longer because there are too many ships :P (half kidding)
I agree, they should be more consistent about this sort of thing. But really, lets talk actual ship power. Scenario: the base's shields in MU are failing, its at 10/10 and you are fully geared and awesome. Which ship you gonna take in to clear out 20 MU ships and save the day? The 3 cannon 3 turret dyson, or the 8 beam array DD? Which one will fly thru there and leave nothing alive without dying? Its not even a comparison... the DD has every advantage in staying alive and aoe destruction.
Warbird is the equivalent of saying ship for the federation. People are getting too hung up on that term.
That's wrong and correct at the same time.
Warbirds are "just" Romulan ships with their unique feature in the form of Singularity Core. Among those warbirds there are several "ship types" which are basically a form of existing escorts, destroyers, cruisers and science ships.
However from the game's perspective a Warbird is a class of its own, in the same way the Battle Cruiser or Fleet Escort Carrier is a class.
I imagine Cryptic got way ahead of itself and basically made all Romulan ships a single class with no way of adding certain features to them. This is way Ha'nom won't close the rifts faster in MI, or D'deridex and Ha'apax won't repair power relays quicker.
On the other hand, Dyson Science Destroyer Warbird is a class separate from other Warbirds, and as such has all the benefits of a proper science vessel AND warbird features.
Still, considering that Ha'nom has been given sensor analysis and subsystem targeting, not to mention the Dyson one is even more fleshed out, I still think the D'deridex and Ha'apax both deserve SOME kind of buff. They're "battle cruiser-type" warbirds, yet they don't benefit from any Cruiser abilities. What's more, they're the slowest of the bunch, with mere 5,5 base turn-rate, while the OP-ness that's the Scimitar can fly in circles like crazy with proper skills...
Warbird is the equivalent of saying ship for the federation.
Not really, there is actually a category "Wabird" in the game. You can sort the ship requisition for them, there are items, that can only be used by "Warbirds" etc.
It would be all about the power to mass ratio effecting any given part of the ship. That and its ability to keep itself in one piece while forcing a change in acceleration would determine how fast a ship could turn.
There is a lot to it. Inertia vs thrust, but you also have the position of the thruster. If the turning thrust is on the extremity of the wings, it has more effect at the same thrust power than if it is near the center of the ship.
Physics in this game are *hopeless*. Consider: if you just hold down the turn thruster, you will spin faster, and faster, and faster.... it will apply acceleration until either all the crew black out and die from the g-force or the ship falls apart or whatever. Every ship should start to turn slowly and increase turn over time --- and reversing the process should also take time and be gradual. And this is just one of 1000 details that are messed up (which is fine, its a game not a sim). Want more? Why do ships BANK in SPACE? Why is space really 2-d (you can't even turn your ship up or down, you have to spiral drive to change "altitude")?! I could keep going but you can already see trying to apply physics to this game is pointless.
Not really, there is actually a category "Wabird" in the game. You can sort the ship requisition for them, there are items, that can only be used by "Warbirds" etc.
Under the warbird designation you have small craft, cruiser, escorts and sci ships. Once again the D'deridex, which is listed under warbird, is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser. It is listed under the warbird tab with battle cruiser in the name. It is not one or the other, it is both.
Under the warbird designation you have small craft, cruiser, escorts and sci ships. Once again the D'deridex, which is listed under warbird, is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser. It is listed under the warbird tab with battle cruiser in the name. It is not one or the other, it is both.
So, then, how does one define a cruiser if one cannot say "ships with cruiser commands" ?? The haakona is simply the "advanced warbird" with no cruiser in the name, is it one? The haakon splits into a haanom, is that not a science ship that should be able to close rifts faster? Or is it an escort?? (From the description: The Haakona Advanced Warbird was designed based on stolen plans for the U.S.S. Prometheus, a powerful Federation Escort)
Its a mess. The haakona is a cruiser, really --- engineering officers and 8 weapons, meh turn rate are all indications. But is that enoug? The scimitar has 8 weapons and can seat a ltcmdr engineer, is it not a battle cruiser as is the designation of the avenger...???
If the DD and haakona are cruisers, the scim & family are as well. And in that case, the word cruiser is meaningless.
Under the warbird designation you have small craft, cruiser, escorts and sci ships. Once again the D'deridex, which is listed under warbird, is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser. It is listed under the warbird tab with battle cruiser in the name. It is not one or the other, it is both.
That still doesn't change the fact, that "Warbird" is an "in-build" category, that has meaning and exist. If you start to give out cruiser commands to warbirds, then the Fed and KDF cruiser commander will protest (and rightfully so). There is just NO reason whatsoever, to give the DD the cruiser commands.
Yes, you can argue, that the Dyson ship shouldn't have the science abilities, but science ships are so weak anyway, that it doesn't really matter. It has those, so what? Do you lose anything by them having those? Do you get destroyed in PvP by those ships using those abilities often? I don't think so.
That still doesn't change the fact, that "Warbird" is an "in-build" category, that has meaning and exist.
I think its more of a filter than a class
Yes, you can argue, that the Dyson ship shouldn't have the science abilities, but science ships are so weak anyway, that it doesn't really matter. It has those, so what? Do you lose anything by them having those? Do you get destroyed in PvP by those ships using those abilities often? I don't think so.
Its a question of design intent and game balance. If warbird+cruiser is illegal because OP then warbird+science should also be illegal under the same design constraints. Also the fact that warbird+science is in fact massively OP compared to every other DSD.
Its a question of design intent and game balance. If warbird+cruiser is illegal because OP then warbird+science should also be illegal under the same design constraints. Also the fact that warbird+science is in fact massively OP compared to every other DSD.
WB+cruiser is op because the "cruisers" for roms are high dps ships --- they can seat at least a ltcmdr tac, have a ton of guns, and all the singularity tricks, and are extremely durable including high ranked engineers to heal, and in the case of the DD, a high ranked sci on top of all that!
The warbird dyson is a low dps ship with few guns, a weak hull, and very little engineering officer seating. The gimmick mode gun is rubbish.
Just because the first one is OP does not mean the second one is. The dyson is a NICE sci ship, but its not OP because its a little fragile and somewhat low dps.
I agree the rom dyson is better than the other factions'. But the other factons have many other sci ships; roms have 2 and one of those is poor (haanom is not great AND it is gated behind fleet purchase or you are stuck with the level 40 version). The dyson is the only readily available rom sci ship, so it *should* be pretty good.
Its a question of design intent and game balance. If warbird+cruiser is illegal because OP then warbird+science should also be illegal under the same design constraints. Also the fact that warbird+science is in fact massively OP compared to every other DSD.
Nope, there are actual items that can only put on a Warbird.
Warbirds are also the only class, that can wear a singularity core, have a build-in Battle Cloak etc.
And the DD just doesn't need Cruiser Commands and there is no law, that forbids Cryptic from doing anything.
If the DD would get Crauiser Command, EVERY large Warbird would want that. Hey, reduced energy costs for weapons on my Scimi? Damn right I wan't that, if the DD gets it! :P
WB+cruiser is op because the "cruisers" for roms are high dps ships --- they can seat at least a ltcmdr tac, have a ton of guns, and all the singularity tricks, and are extremely durable including high ranked engineers to heal, and in the case of the DD, a high ranked sci on top of all that!
Tons of gun? No more than any other ship.
Boff seating? The Avenger has the exact same tac seating and can run Dual A2B.
Singularity? -40 power ALL THE TIME in return for a power you might use once in a while...at the cost of even MORE power. Even using things like shield cap drains the singularity, losing as much as 25 power, warp cores do not need to worry about that. Imagine a romulan with 40+ more power in shields and or weapons at all times. Singularities are different but not a I win button and come at a huge cost.
Boff seating? The Avenger has the exact same tac seating and can run Dual A2B.
Singularity? -40 power ALL THE TIME in return for a power you might use once in a while...at the cost of even MORE power. Even using things like shield cap drains the singularity, losing as much as 25 power, warp cores do not need to worry about that. Imagine a romulan with 40+ more power in shields and or weapons at all times. Singularities are different but not a I win button and come at a huge cost.
Sorry, I am not following you. The conversation is about why the rom "cruiser" (whatever THAT means) getting commands is a touch OP while the dyson rom sci ship with sensor scan etc is not.
In that context, the so-called cruisers (haakona family & DD) have 8 guns compared to 6 on the dyson ( I do not count the proton gimmick as a real gun). I have no idea how the avenger plays into this topic at all?? The avenger is sort of a scimitar, except it has more durability and commands while the scim has singularity & cloak. Its obvious which one is stronger in practice.
Also -- the DD, Haakona, and rom dyson ALL use singularity. It is not part of the argument between cruiser commands vs sci commands on the respective ROMULAN ships. ???? I mean, it *is* because ppl say singularity powers make up for no cruiser commands, but that does not fit in with your commentary.
Likewise A2B is not really part of the discussion. I am *completely* lost about your point here?
Sorry, I am not following you. The conversation is about why the rom "cruiser" (whatever THAT means) getting commands is a touch OP while the dyson rom sci ship with sensor scan etc is not.
WB+cruiser is op because the "cruisers" for roms are high dps ships --- they can seat at least a ltcmdr tac, have a ton of guns, and all the singularity tricks, and are extremely durable including high ranked engineers to heal, and in the case of the DD, a high ranked sci on top of all that!
WB+cruiser is op...then you listed why you felt so. My reply was to counter those points, the avenger was mentioned because it has cruiser commands and blows the D'D out of the water when it comes to the very reasons you list for DD. Dual A2B doubles the boff seating on the few ships that can do it. That is effectively gives the avenger TWO LtCmdr tacs and two ensign tacs. That is why Dual A2B was relevant.
The thread is about the 2 romulan cruiser getting the cruiser commands they should have. The nerf sci ships was a joke. The point was to poke holes in the very weak argument that Warbirds could not be cruisers.
the warbird cruisers are at least half fail, far from the best. the d'deridex can be interesting, but basically anything you want to do on it you can do better on a dhlean.
The warbird dyson is a low dps ship with few guns, a weak hull, and very little engineering officer seating.
That's the hallmark of a science ship. ALL science ships are like that. Thus they have to be used differently, they have to manipulate the target so that weapons fire is more effective, they have to use shields instead of hull, etc. So the negatives you assign to the rom DSD is actually no different from every other sci ship.
Then you add the singularity powers and the battlecloak and its basically in the top-tier of science ships along with Wells and Vesta for OP-ness.
If those things make it OP, then it should not have them, or it should not have the science things and just make it a Warbird with Cmdr sci BOFF. It does not need sensor analysis -and- subsystem targeting -and- a secondary deflector -and- singularity powers -and- battlecloaking. Its absurd.
Honestly the only reason for being this way is a design error. Cryptics storyline and c-store sales strategy and the secondary deflector balance mechanic all crossed streams at this juncture. Now they cant be separated, because people paid $$ for the ship and Cryptic has to bend over backwards to explain logic of why warbird+science is okay but warbird+cruiser isnt. Another big mistake due to "just do this and get it off my checklist" design.
That's the hallmark of a science ship. ALL science ships are like that. Thus they have to be used differently, they have to manipulate the target so that weapons fire is more effective, they have to use shields instead of hull, etc. So the negatives you assign to the rom DSD is actually no different from every other sci ship.
Then you add the singularity powers and the battlecloak and its basically in the top-tier of science ships along with Wells and Vesta for OP-ness.
If those things make it OP, then it should not have them, or it should not have the science things and just make it a Warbird with Cmdr sci BOFF. It does not need sensor analysis -and- subsystem targeting -and- a secondary deflector -and- singularity powers -and- battlecloaking. Its absurd.
Honestly the only reason for being this way is a design error. Cryptics storyline and c-store sales strategy and the secondary deflector balance mechanic all crossed streams at this juncture. Now they cant be separated, because people paid $$ for the ship and Cryptic has to bend over backwards to explain logic of why warbird+science is okay but warbird+cruiser isnt. Another big mistake due to "just do this and get it off my checklist" design.
let us consider DPS/Burst DMG in this ship.....
i use this ship a lot, the romulan one A LOT, and it is NOT as powerful as you guys are saying it is, OR i am just so much of a bloody noob that i dont see what you guys see.
To me, is ship is OP if it can get kills at a "higher than average" rate all on its own.
Crusiers are doing it with A2b.
Escorts do it with high as hell burst.
even BoP, with 3-4 tac consoles, mostly 3, do it with burst.
Sci ships......well they use powers and those have NOTHING to do with the ship.
this ship just does not do that. It is a great addition to any team but solo or 1v1, the ship isnt OP in the least. DPS-wise it is low, like every other science ship out there. It only has a 3/3 weapon slot set up. boostig those 3/3 waepons mean your leave out the proton DHC. and boosting the proton cannon gimps all your other weapons. The arguement could be made that you simply use protonic polaron weapons BUT, the boosted base damage is STILL lower than if you used spire tac consoles. and the boost to proton dmg only matters if you crit ALOT and even then, you still never do as much dmg as Antiproton.
And before you ask, YES i have tested it.
i using a tac romulan, with a crit rate of over 26% and still did less dmg than my AP set up. So it is safe to say if DPS/high burst is your goal, protonic weapons are out. But as an AP using ship, because of the proton DHC you are stuck with, you DPS/burst with never match a full escort. At best, this ship is a "hit and run" type ship or a shield tanking....something. and honestly, there are other ships who do those jobs better. this one just does an ok job at both.
So how is it TOO OP in that regard?
Lets look at powers.
in sci mode, as i have mentioned, you have 3/3 weapons so high dps here is not going to happen, which means you have to rely on sci powers to control/kill the target. Sensor A, isnt goingto make your weapons hit hard enough to kill another player at all. Subsystem targeting(SST) is cleared with eng. Team and thats IF it knocks out the system. otherwise, and most of the time it only drains, and if you arent speccing into anti-drain, youve got more problems than a sci ship on your six. MOst players put at least 6 points into anti drain and after that, SST does nearly nothing. when you consider the short time it does drain, it doesnt hurt anyone... you would have to make a complete drain build to drain a ship dry and that would mean you DPS/dmg output is too lower to kill a target on your own. Sure you drained him dry, but if you cant kill them in 10-15 seconds, youve failed and they are now gunning for YOU.
As a drain, like most other science ships, youre the "Set-up" guy. you use your powers to control the battle and set up kills for others. do the sing power aid in this? not a bit. when has a sing jump held do a ship for a kill? Has the plasma burst EVER hurt anyone? sing Overload doesnt even do enough of an emprovement to make it worst using and the last power only aids in tanking and even then BARELY. furthermore, none of these power combine with SST or SA to do anything. the combination of them on one ship gives the pilot nothing to aid in getting kills. In fact, sing powers are best use defensively....
Absurd? Hardly.
Even my dsiabling build does little to one who brought ET to the battle. and even if they didnt, to disable with any true effect, i need to be in sci mode, which means i am in no position to kill a target fast. again, im the "set up" guy. and thats not OP either, thats just teamwork. so again, nothing about the ship is OP here either.
Now. the ONE thing having SST, SA and sing powers all on one ship do is make you a harder target to kill, OR allow you to disable another player so a teamate can finish them. you are slightly better at getting away and maybe you have a few options more than the guy NOT in a dyson. In pvp this doesnt matter because your "teamwork" is what gets the kills, not some Uber-dyson going Jenkins-kirk vaping the competition like some of you seem to be describing. In pve, who cares what this ship is doing when you can jump in a scimitar and 50k DPS faceroll a whole mission. this ship will NEVER do that.
TL:DR?
to some it up, this ship is not OP in the slightest. What in samhill are you people talking about?
Everyone keep bringing up the 7 turn rate on the Scimitar and asking why a larger ship turns better than a Romulan D'deridex. The answer is simple, the Scimitar isn't a Romulan designed ship, rather it is a Reman designed ship (only one in the game I think) using advanced technology. I think the movie Star Trek Nemisis makes that point rather clear hehe.
Ok now what that has to do with balance or the DD being slow in game, no clue. Honestly the DD should be buffed to a 7 turn rate ship because honestly I see no in or out of game justification for it to be one of the slowest turning ships in the game. Also battlecloak and singluarity powers aren't a good enough justification in my option because at best they are situational abillites only useful very occassionally where are cruiser commands are useful 100% of the time, providing a very signifiant buff all the time.
Comments
That's the part that bothers me. The Scimitar is huge - larger then a D'Deridex, but has a better turn rate? How does that even make sense?
Well, size isn't everything (ha ha ha), the strength of the engines etc. also plays a role.
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Bigger it is, but with small hull and big wings, unlike the D'Deridex.
But is it heavier?
In space, the mass still resist changes not the size...
Warbird is the equivalent of saying ship for the federation. People are getting too hung up on that term. Some warbirds are escorts like the dhlean, some are sci warbirds like the ha'nom, some are destroyers like the valdore and some are cruisers like the D'deridex and Ha'apax. Cruiser, escort and science are roles and every fleet has ships that fill those rolls. Warbird is just factional flavor.
Singularities are paid for with the 40 power tax so no more with the but..but..but it has a singularity! -40 power is a lot in a game where power means power!
As for the battle cloak, the lock box ship has a adapted cloak, but that is more than made up with the ship having sensor analysis which is really good on a 8 weapon ship and will be amazing after the S9 buff to sa.
Finally, even in game it is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser.
Its actually has both cruiser and warbird in its name, oh noes!
bigger WITH Bigger wings don't you know anything about space travel
It would be all about the power to mass ratio effecting any given part of the ship. That and its ability to keep itself in one piece while forcing a change in acceleration would determine how fast a ship could turn.
A simple change should be made to fix the issue:
-- engineer captain, powers station faster
-- sci captain, closes rifts faster
-- tac captain: all aoe skills last 4x longer because there are too many ships :P (half kidding)
I agree, they should be more consistent about this sort of thing. But really, lets talk actual ship power. Scenario: the base's shields in MU are failing, its at 10/10 and you are fully geared and awesome. Which ship you gonna take in to clear out 20 MU ships and save the day? The 3 cannon 3 turret dyson, or the 8 beam array DD? Which one will fly thru there and leave nothing alive without dying? Its not even a comparison... the DD has every advantage in staying alive and aoe destruction.
Warbirds are "just" Romulan ships with their unique feature in the form of Singularity Core. Among those warbirds there are several "ship types" which are basically a form of existing escorts, destroyers, cruisers and science ships.
However from the game's perspective a Warbird is a class of its own, in the same way the Battle Cruiser or Fleet Escort Carrier is a class.
I imagine Cryptic got way ahead of itself and basically made all Romulan ships a single class with no way of adding certain features to them. This is way Ha'nom won't close the rifts faster in MI, or D'deridex and Ha'apax won't repair power relays quicker.
On the other hand, Dyson Science Destroyer Warbird is a class separate from other Warbirds, and as such has all the benefits of a proper science vessel AND warbird features.
Still, considering that Ha'nom has been given sensor analysis and subsystem targeting, not to mention the Dyson one is even more fleshed out, I still think the D'deridex and Ha'apax both deserve SOME kind of buff. They're "battle cruiser-type" warbirds, yet they don't benefit from any Cruiser abilities. What's more, they're the slowest of the bunch, with mere 5,5 base turn-rate, while the OP-ness that's the Scimitar can fly in circles like crazy with proper skills...
Why such difference? They're both the same kind of ship. Ha'apax can also use dual cannons and can utilize them even more with the separation console.
Not really, there is actually a category "Wabird" in the game. You can sort the ship requisition for them, there are items, that can only be used by "Warbirds" etc.
There is a lot to it. Inertia vs thrust, but you also have the position of the thruster. If the turning thrust is on the extremity of the wings, it has more effect at the same thrust power than if it is near the center of the ship.
Physics in this game are *hopeless*. Consider: if you just hold down the turn thruster, you will spin faster, and faster, and faster.... it will apply acceleration until either all the crew black out and die from the g-force or the ship falls apart or whatever. Every ship should start to turn slowly and increase turn over time --- and reversing the process should also take time and be gradual. And this is just one of 1000 details that are messed up (which is fine, its a game not a sim). Want more? Why do ships BANK in SPACE? Why is space really 2-d (you can't even turn your ship up or down, you have to spiral drive to change "altitude")?! I could keep going but you can already see trying to apply physics to this game is pointless.
Under the warbird designation you have small craft, cruiser, escorts and sci ships. Once again the D'deridex, which is listed under warbird, is called D'deridex Warbird Battle Cruiser. It is listed under the warbird tab with battle cruiser in the name. It is not one or the other, it is both.
So, then, how does one define a cruiser if one cannot say "ships with cruiser commands" ?? The haakona is simply the "advanced warbird" with no cruiser in the name, is it one? The haakon splits into a haanom, is that not a science ship that should be able to close rifts faster? Or is it an escort?? (From the description: The Haakona Advanced Warbird was designed based on stolen plans for the U.S.S. Prometheus, a powerful Federation Escort)
Its a mess. The haakona is a cruiser, really --- engineering officers and 8 weapons, meh turn rate are all indications. But is that enoug? The scimitar has 8 weapons and can seat a ltcmdr engineer, is it not a battle cruiser as is the designation of the avenger...???
If the DD and haakona are cruisers, the scim & family are as well. And in that case, the word cruiser is meaningless.
That still doesn't change the fact, that "Warbird" is an "in-build" category, that has meaning and exist. If you start to give out cruiser commands to warbirds, then the Fed and KDF cruiser commander will protest (and rightfully so). There is just NO reason whatsoever, to give the DD the cruiser commands.
Yes, you can argue, that the Dyson ship shouldn't have the science abilities, but science ships are so weak anyway, that it doesn't really matter. It has those, so what? Do you lose anything by them having those? Do you get destroyed in PvP by those ships using those abilities often? I don't think so.
Its a question of design intent and game balance. If warbird+cruiser is illegal because OP then warbird+science should also be illegal under the same design constraints. Also the fact that warbird+science is in fact massively OP compared to every other DSD.
WB+cruiser is op because the "cruisers" for roms are high dps ships --- they can seat at least a ltcmdr tac, have a ton of guns, and all the singularity tricks, and are extremely durable including high ranked engineers to heal, and in the case of the DD, a high ranked sci on top of all that!
The warbird dyson is a low dps ship with few guns, a weak hull, and very little engineering officer seating. The gimmick mode gun is rubbish.
Just because the first one is OP does not mean the second one is. The dyson is a NICE sci ship, but its not OP because its a little fragile and somewhat low dps.
I agree the rom dyson is better than the other factions'. But the other factons have many other sci ships; roms have 2 and one of those is poor (haanom is not great AND it is gated behind fleet purchase or you are stuck with the level 40 version). The dyson is the only readily available rom sci ship, so it *should* be pretty good.
Nope, there are actual items that can only put on a Warbird.
Warbirds are also the only class, that can wear a singularity core, have a build-in Battle Cloak etc.
And the DD just doesn't need Cruiser Commands and there is no law, that forbids Cryptic from doing anything.
If the DD would get Crauiser Command, EVERY large Warbird would want that. Hey, reduced energy costs for weapons on my Scimi? Damn right I wan't that, if the DD gets it! :P
Tons of gun? No more than any other ship.
Boff seating? The Avenger has the exact same tac seating and can run Dual A2B.
Singularity? -40 power ALL THE TIME in return for a power you might use once in a while...at the cost of even MORE power. Even using things like shield cap drains the singularity, losing as much as 25 power, warp cores do not need to worry about that. Imagine a romulan with 40+ more power in shields and or weapons at all times. Singularities are different but not a I win button and come at a huge cost.
Sorry, I am not following you. The conversation is about why the rom "cruiser" (whatever THAT means) getting commands is a touch OP while the dyson rom sci ship with sensor scan etc is not.
In that context, the so-called cruisers (haakona family & DD) have 8 guns compared to 6 on the dyson ( I do not count the proton gimmick as a real gun). I have no idea how the avenger plays into this topic at all?? The avenger is sort of a scimitar, except it has more durability and commands while the scim has singularity & cloak. Its obvious which one is stronger in practice.
Also -- the DD, Haakona, and rom dyson ALL use singularity. It is not part of the argument between cruiser commands vs sci commands on the respective ROMULAN ships. ???? I mean, it *is* because ppl say singularity powers make up for no cruiser commands, but that does not fit in with your commentary.
Likewise A2B is not really part of the discussion. I am *completely* lost about your point here?
This is what you said.
WB+cruiser is op...then you listed why you felt so. My reply was to counter those points, the avenger was mentioned because it has cruiser commands and blows the D'D out of the water when it comes to the very reasons you list for DD. Dual A2B doubles the boff seating on the few ships that can do it. That is effectively gives the avenger TWO LtCmdr tacs and two ensign tacs. That is why Dual A2B was relevant.
The thread is about the 2 romulan cruiser getting the cruiser commands they should have. The nerf sci ships was a joke. The point was to poke holes in the very weak argument that Warbirds could not be cruisers.
Then you add the singularity powers and the battlecloak and its basically in the top-tier of science ships along with Wells and Vesta for OP-ness.
If those things make it OP, then it should not have them, or it should not have the science things and just make it a Warbird with Cmdr sci BOFF. It does not need sensor analysis -and- subsystem targeting -and- a secondary deflector -and- singularity powers -and- battlecloaking. Its absurd.
Honestly the only reason for being this way is a design error. Cryptics storyline and c-store sales strategy and the secondary deflector balance mechanic all crossed streams at this juncture. Now they cant be separated, because people paid $$ for the ship and Cryptic has to bend over backwards to explain logic of why warbird+science is okay but warbird+cruiser isnt. Another big mistake due to "just do this and get it off my checklist" design.
let us consider DPS/Burst DMG in this ship.....
i use this ship a lot, the romulan one A LOT, and it is NOT as powerful as you guys are saying it is, OR i am just so much of a bloody noob that i dont see what you guys see.
To me, is ship is OP if it can get kills at a "higher than average" rate all on its own.
Crusiers are doing it with A2b.
Escorts do it with high as hell burst.
even BoP, with 3-4 tac consoles, mostly 3, do it with burst.
Sci ships......well they use powers and those have NOTHING to do with the ship.
this ship just does not do that. It is a great addition to any team but solo or 1v1, the ship isnt OP in the least. DPS-wise it is low, like every other science ship out there. It only has a 3/3 weapon slot set up. boostig those 3/3 waepons mean your leave out the proton DHC. and boosting the proton cannon gimps all your other weapons. The arguement could be made that you simply use protonic polaron weapons BUT, the boosted base damage is STILL lower than if you used spire tac consoles. and the boost to proton dmg only matters if you crit ALOT and even then, you still never do as much dmg as Antiproton.
And before you ask, YES i have tested it.
i using a tac romulan, with a crit rate of over 26% and still did less dmg than my AP set up. So it is safe to say if DPS/high burst is your goal, protonic weapons are out. But as an AP using ship, because of the proton DHC you are stuck with, you DPS/burst with never match a full escort. At best, this ship is a "hit and run" type ship or a shield tanking....something. and honestly, there are other ships who do those jobs better. this one just does an ok job at both.
So how is it TOO OP in that regard?
Lets look at powers.
in sci mode, as i have mentioned, you have 3/3 weapons so high dps here is not going to happen, which means you have to rely on sci powers to control/kill the target. Sensor A, isnt goingto make your weapons hit hard enough to kill another player at all. Subsystem targeting(SST) is cleared with eng. Team and thats IF it knocks out the system. otherwise, and most of the time it only drains, and if you arent speccing into anti-drain, youve got more problems than a sci ship on your six. MOst players put at least 6 points into anti drain and after that, SST does nearly nothing. when you consider the short time it does drain, it doesnt hurt anyone... you would have to make a complete drain build to drain a ship dry and that would mean you DPS/dmg output is too lower to kill a target on your own. Sure you drained him dry, but if you cant kill them in 10-15 seconds, youve failed and they are now gunning for YOU.
As a drain, like most other science ships, youre the "Set-up" guy. you use your powers to control the battle and set up kills for others. do the sing power aid in this? not a bit. when has a sing jump held do a ship for a kill? Has the plasma burst EVER hurt anyone? sing Overload doesnt even do enough of an emprovement to make it worst using and the last power only aids in tanking and even then BARELY. furthermore, none of these power combine with SST or SA to do anything. the combination of them on one ship gives the pilot nothing to aid in getting kills. In fact, sing powers are best use defensively....
Absurd? Hardly.
Even my dsiabling build does little to one who brought ET to the battle. and even if they didnt, to disable with any true effect, i need to be in sci mode, which means i am in no position to kill a target fast. again, im the "set up" guy. and thats not OP either, thats just teamwork. so again, nothing about the ship is OP here either.
Now. the ONE thing having SST, SA and sing powers all on one ship do is make you a harder target to kill, OR allow you to disable another player so a teamate can finish them. you are slightly better at getting away and maybe you have a few options more than the guy NOT in a dyson. In pvp this doesnt matter because your "teamwork" is what gets the kills, not some Uber-dyson going Jenkins-kirk vaping the competition like some of you seem to be describing. In pve, who cares what this ship is doing when you can jump in a scimitar and 50k DPS faceroll a whole mission. this ship will NEVER do that.
TL:DR?
to some it up, this ship is not OP in the slightest. What in samhill are you people talking about?
You should also consider, that it is the ONLY real science ship for Romulan characters.
Ok now what that has to do with balance or the DD being slow in game, no clue. Honestly the DD should be buffed to a 7 turn rate ship because honestly I see no in or out of game justification for it to be one of the slowest turning ships in the game. Also battlecloak and singluarity powers aren't a good enough justification in my option because at best they are situational abillites only useful very occassionally where are cruiser commands are useful 100% of the time, providing a very signifiant buff all the time.