I tend to disagree with this stance. While it has a certain logical, removing preferred choices will lead to a bland, 'equalized' range of space sets, with none of them being particularly more desireable than the other. Which, in turn, leads to an overall disinterest in the game. I mean, why bother striving for set Y, when you already have set X, which is about equally good!?
Because it does something else. Instead of "more healing then set X", one set is about healing, the other about offense, one about teleporting across the map, and so on.
With your approach, I have no reason to ever take the worse option. I know it'S less powerful.
In the current version of the Omega Reputation, you can acquire 3 different marks of the ASsimialted gear - why would you ever not wait and take the MK XII?
Do you ever bother buying very rare MK VIII items for a commander level character? No, most likely not, because you know you will only really gear up if you get to Mark XII stuff and are at endgame.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Because it does something else. Instead of "more healing then set X", one set is about healing, the other about offense, one about teleporting across the map, and so on.
THe problem with the game is there is less give and take. It used to be if you wanted to do face melting DPS you gave up a lot of survivability to get. Or if you wanted to be an unkillable healer you gave up damage. Now you have builds with Primary and secondary roles and the secondary roles are pretty close to primary roles. I think it is more about sets as whole as opposed to one particular set o vs another.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
wow if this thread is any indication of the majority reaction to the DEvs fixing a bug....i can't even imagine the reaction to a general balance pass that deserves the name and takes both pvp and pve in account.
They once tried seriously nerfing the Borg set... Cue a bunch of people who swore they needed the Borg set to tank and threw a tantrum. That alone should tell you everything you need to know, about the Borg set AND about some in the player base.
When was that? I know that they nerfed the shield heal at one time and then essentially removed the free shield heal by splitting the set and forcing people to use the Borg shield if they wanted to keep the shield proc, but I really can't recall that they ever wanted to change the Borg set and then refrained from doing so.
They once tried seriously nerfing the Borg set... Cue a bunch of people who swore they needed the Borg set to tank and threw a tantrum. That alone should tell you everything you need to know, about the Borg set AND about some in the player base.
I do not use any of the borg set. For escort the borg set was phenomenal an extra passive heal that escorts were short in not to mention the additional power received to eng/shields/or aux. I am half tempted to play with 2 piece borg and the hyper regen shields now that I have ST instead of TSS.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
When was that? I know that they nerfed the shield heal at one time and then essentially removed the free shield heal by splitting the set and forcing people to use the Borg shield if they wanted to keep the shield proc, but I really can't recall that they ever wanted to change the Borg set and then refrained from doing so.
Yeah, that's the only "nerf" I remember coming up in the past (but then again, I sometimes forget what happened yesterday).
It is kind of funny though, imho, how it kind of reflects other things in the game, eh?
There's too many currencies! Now with more currencies than ever!
There's too much subsystem power in the game! Now with more subsystem power than ever!
BO stacking does too much damage! Now with more things you can stack to do even more damage!
There shouldn't be any four piece bonuses where you can get the 3pc bonus without having to run a major part of the set! Now with more and more and more 4pc sets!
When was that? I know that they nerfed the shield heal at one time and then essentially removed the free shield heal by splitting the set and forcing people to use the Borg shield if they wanted to keep the shield proc, but I really can't recall that they ever wanted to change the Borg set and then refrained from doing so.
I don't understand why you feel the need to fix something that isnt broken.
Or seeing as its a major nerf of its usefulness, break something that isnt broken.
It does not matter how much you try to sugarcoat it.
The simple fact is that its been NERFED Big-Time.
And my efforts to obtain a "second set" on the same character is now completely wasted.
Thank you so much for making the Borg set decent again. It now works well for amor/hull tankers. Healing rate and resistance are a little lower then before but it no longer feels like a bad nerf. Overall I think its a good set now.
Thanks. I had completely forgotten that when they split off the console they also attempted to tweak the numbers of the Borg set.
Heh, that was before that split...that was the F2P Set Revamp stuff from Tribble leading up to the F2P launch.
Does kind of call into question why they'd finally make the change now when they wouldn't then. Have to wonder what else they're going to try to sell folks that they want to be better than the 2pc Borg, eh?
Thanks. I had completely forgotten that when they split off the console they also attempted to tweak the numbers of the Borg set.
I forgot about that, too. So basically what we are realizing is that the devs always meant to fix it, but decided to postpone it a little while to appease all the nay-sayers? Or am I reading that wrong?
Does kind of call into question why they'd finally make the change now when they wouldn't then. Have to wonder what else they're going to try to sell folks that they want to be better than the 2pc Borg, eh?
The Solanae set comes to mind as an alternative people didn't want to use.
The Solanae set comes to mind as an alternative people didn't want to use.
Yeah, but in my hierarchy of things - that can't even begin to compare and shouldn't compare.
It's from running 3 missions...tada...done. As opposed to grinding for how long and grinding how much to get the 2pc Borg?
Since everybody but Willard was a reroll though, those seven other guys down there are running the 4pc set until I decide what I want to replace it with. The 3pc isn't that bad...might even be OP. :P
Interestingly, the bug was found when one of us tried to update the tooltips for the set to make them accurate. As soon as the tooltips were telling the truth, they clearly exposed the bug for us to find and fix.
Yeah, but in my hierarchy of things - that can't even begin to compare and shouldn't compare.
It's from running 3 missions...tada...done. As opposed to grinding for how long and grinding how much to get the 2pc Borg?
Ah, but you're not looking at the big picture!
They want the set to be desirable so that people will feel compelled to buy the 9 ships set, one or two 3 ship sets, or at least a few of the variants, of the Dyson Destroyer.
The 3 mission rewards are like that first, free sample....
They want the set to be desirable so that people will feel compelled to buy the 9 ships set, one or two 3 ship sets, or at least a few of the variants, of the Dyson Destroyer.
The 3 mission rewards are like that first, free sample....
Hrmmm, why? I mean...seriously...lol, is it a case that Cryptic really thinks that little of their playerbase?
Balance is a lot about removing mandatory choices and obvious choices.
It just occured to me, that, by your reasoning, we should also nerf the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated Console, the Zero-Point module, and the Plasmonic Leech.
Yeah, no. Having choices is not about making everything bland (in fact, that's the definition of having NO choice: if X is as good as Y, 'choosing' between either of them becomes just a token action). Having a choice means: "I want item X over Y, damnit, and I'm willing to grind for!"
we should also nerf the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated Console, the Zero-Point module, and the Plasmonic Leech.
Are any of those even mandatory? I'd say the first three are obsolete and the fourth is about to become obsolete with the Undine Rep. A year ago, I wouldn't have said that - pretty much every build I ran had the first three...but that was then and this is now.
Yeah, no. Having choices is not about making everything bland (in fact, that's the definition of having NO choice: if X is as good as Y, 'choosing' between either of them becomes just a token action). Having a choice means: "I want item X over Y, damnit, and I'm willing to grind for!"
Just because something is not mandatory does not mean it is bland. There can still be choice, even pseudo mandatory choice based on build...
If X is better for build A...
If Y is better for build B...
If Z is better for build C...
Is not the same as X is best for build A, B, and C.
I'd say the first three are obsolete and the fourth is about to become obsolete with the Undine Rep.
Wait, wha?! I'm missing something? Plasmonic Leech getting obsoleted by Undine Rep?! That better be some *real* good Rep then! ... So good, that ppl ppl should already be asking for a nerf.
Wait, wha?! I'm missing something? Plasmonic Leech getting obsoleted by Undine Rep?! That better be some *real* good Rep then! ... So good, that ppl ppl should already be asking for a nerf.
Heh, folks have already complained about it.
edit: Though Hawk has said we weren't supposed to have seen any of it to be able to complain about it yet...cause it's all still WIP.
edit2: Even there, it would still be something subject to testing to see how it played out.
It just occured to me, that, by your reasoning, we should also nerf the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated Console, the Zero-Point module, and the Plasmonic Leech.
for!"
Or buff the alternate choices, yes.
Don't confuse balance with blandness or identity.
It is a sytem of opportunity cost, basically. I have x slots for items. I can have any combination of items in those x slots, but which one is the one that will give the type of gamemplay and the abilities that I want or need?
That balancing of console powers hasn't happened sufficiently so far is one of the failings of the game, not a proof that it must never be attempted in any area of the game.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
With your approach, I have no reason to ever take the worse option. I know it'S less powerful.
In the current version of the Omega Reputation, you can acquire 3 different marks of the ASsimialted gear - why would you ever not wait and take the MK XII?
Do you ever bother buying very rare MK VIII items for a commander level character? No, most likely not, because you know you will only really gear up if you get to Mark XII stuff and are at endgame.
THe problem with the game is there is less give and take. It used to be if you wanted to do face melting DPS you gave up a lot of survivability to get. Or if you wanted to be an unkillable healer you gave up damage. Now you have builds with Primary and secondary roles and the secondary roles are pretty close to primary roles. I think it is more about sets as whole as opposed to one particular set o vs another.
They once tried seriously nerfing the Borg set... Cue a bunch of people who swore they needed the Borg set to tank and threw a tantrum. That alone should tell you everything you need to know, about the Borg set AND about some in the player base.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
I do not use any of the borg set. For escort the borg set was phenomenal an extra passive heal that escorts were short in not to mention the additional power received to eng/shields/or aux. I am half tempted to play with 2 piece borg and the hyper regen shields now that I have ST instead of TSS.
Yeah, that's the only "nerf" I remember coming up in the past (but then again, I sometimes forget what happened yesterday).
It is kind of funny though, imho, how it kind of reflects other things in the game, eh?
There's too many currencies! Now with more currencies than ever!
There's too much subsystem power in the game! Now with more subsystem power than ever!
BO stacking does too much damage! Now with more things you can stack to do even more damage!
There shouldn't be any four piece bonuses where you can get the 3pc bonus without having to run a major part of the set! Now with more and more and more 4pc sets!
Over 2 years ago.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=247193
Watch as over the course of 12 pages of tantrums the Borg 2-piece bonus gets gradually denerfed.
Here are some of my choice picks:-
And after the denerf:-
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Heh, that was before that split...that was the F2P Set Revamp stuff from Tribble leading up to the F2P launch.
Does kind of call into question why they'd finally make the change now when they wouldn't then. Have to wonder what else they're going to try to sell folks that they want to be better than the 2pc Borg, eh?
I forgot about that, too. So basically what we are realizing is that the devs always meant to fix it, but decided to postpone it a little while to appease all the nay-sayers? Or am I reading that wrong?
The Solanae set comes to mind as an alternative people didn't want to use.
Yeah, but in my hierarchy of things - that can't even begin to compare and shouldn't compare.
It's from running 3 missions...tada...done. As opposed to grinding for how long and grinding how much to get the 2pc Borg?
Since everybody but Willard was a reroll though, those seven other guys down there are running the 4pc set until I decide what I want to replace it with. The 3pc isn't that bad...might even be OP. :P
edit: Er, I meant dev tracker.
Ah, but you're not looking at the big picture!
They want the set to be desirable so that people will feel compelled to buy the 9 ships set, one or two 3 ship sets, or at least a few of the variants, of the Dyson Destroyer.
The 3 mission rewards are like that first, free sample....
Hrmmm, why? I mean...seriously...lol, is it a case that Cryptic really thinks that little of their playerbase?
It just occured to me, that, by your reasoning, we should also nerf the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated Console, the Zero-Point module, and the Plasmonic Leech.
Yeah, no. Having choices is not about making everything bland (in fact, that's the definition of having NO choice: if X is as good as Y, 'choosing' between either of them becomes just a token action). Having a choice means: "I want item X over Y, damnit, and I'm willing to grind for!"
Are any of those even mandatory? I'd say the first three are obsolete and the fourth is about to become obsolete with the Undine Rep. A year ago, I wouldn't have said that - pretty much every build I ran had the first three...but that was then and this is now.
Just because something is not mandatory does not mean it is bland. There can still be choice, even pseudo mandatory choice based on build...
If X is better for build A...
If Y is better for build B...
If Z is better for build C...
Is not the same as X is best for build A, B, and C.
I still consider those consoles mandatory, yes.
Wait, wha?! I'm missing something?
Heh, folks have already complained about it.
edit: Though Hawk has said we weren't supposed to have seen any of it to be able to complain about it yet...cause it's all still WIP.
edit2: Even there, it would still be something subject to testing to see how it played out.
No no its working as intended now shush !
........ patch notes 3 years later !!!!!
We resolved an issue with X console, and we have no idea how it got under the radar for 3 years !
*quiet conversation in the background*
Do you think they will realise what we are up to ? How much is projected this will make us ?
Don't confuse balance with blandness or identity.
It is a sytem of opportunity cost, basically. I have x slots for items. I can have any combination of items in those x slots, but which one is the one that will give the type of gamemplay and the abilities that I want or need?
That balancing of console powers hasn't happened sufficiently so far is one of the failings of the game, not a proof that it must never be attempted in any area of the game.