That's all fine. But then I don't want to hear "some people like to knowingly use broken items," as as an excuse to get one particular item nerfed. If looking "to get the most out of a set game enviroment" is okay, then so was using the pre-nerfed Borg set. You can't have your cookie and eat it.
How many times ... : A bug, discovered by a developer and subsequently fixed. No player involvement.
Choice ≠ just one usable item(-set) for a specific slot.
It's a common issue in the PvE vs. PvP threads. Egos. I hate stereotyping, but imho it tends to be the PvE ego unable to accept that they're not as good as they think they are or accepting the sheer number of crutches they're reliant upon.
In the end, that's what the 2pc Borg is - it's a crutch. It's a proc heal. Requires no active involvement from the player. They slot it, it does all the work, and they pat themselves on the back for it. By attempting to adjust an obviously broken item (much as is the case with any of the obviously broken items), you're attacking their egos. Without the various crutches, you're pointing out to them that perhaps they need to chill with patting themselves on the back so much.
Of course, the same thing comes up in threads other than PvE vs. PvP. The same "pointing out" takes place in discussions of certain things just within PvP threads. Some of the folks actually know the edge that it gives them - and - they're usually quiet. Those that have an inflated Ego because of some broken mechanic, just like the PvE folks - are generally there at the frontlines trying to defend the mechanic.
I'm not saying this as some PvP/PvE Rockstar. Not even a roadie. Not even a groupie. More like the guy that found out about the concert after it sold out....
It's a common issue in the PvE vs. PvP threads. Egos. I hate stereotyping, but imho it tends to be the PvE ego unable to accept that they're not as good as they think they are or accepting the sheer number of crutches they're reliant upon.
In the end, that's what the 2pc Borg is - it's a crutch. It's a proc heal. Requires no active involvement from the player. They slot it, it does all the work, and they pat themselves on the back for it. By attempting to adjust an obviously broken item (much as is the case with any of the obviously broken items), you're attacking their egos. Without the various crutches, you're pointing out to them that perhaps they need to chill with patting themselves on the back so much.
Of course, the same thing comes up in threads other than PvE vs. PvP. The same "pointing out" takes place in discussions of certain things just within PvP threads. Some of the folks actually know the edge that it gives them - and - they're usually quiet. Those that have an inflated Ego because of some broken mechanic, just like the PvE folks - are generally there at the frontlines trying to defend the mechanic.
I'm not saying this as some PvP/PvE Rockstar. Not even a roadie. Not even a groupie. More like the guy that found out about the concert after it sold out....
Ive been saying it for a long time, that the PvE community is usually the nastier of the two regarding egos and flaming. They take things ultra serious but when you read their builds its so obvious they stack up the most passive way to NOT play the game its silly.
its also a major reason youll see some of these pve heroes come into PvP queues and start raging in zone when they get blown up, because they are so used to being handed everything just because they geared for it. God forbid they died because someone actually outplayed them or anything.
"youd never beat me one on one" Yeah right, never lost that challenge once.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Yeah .. i just find it frustrating when people use circular logic or strawman arguments. It's like they had this dialogue in their heads play out. Everything worked out fine in this imaginary world, but when a real world counter argument is applied, they still go through with their dream-dialogue.
And then always these blatant generalisations. "One PvPer said..." , so every other vaguely pro PvP player must have the same opinion.
Or just ignoring other options, "You can't have your pie and eat it". Sure i can, it's called ballance.
What it comes down to is egos and the egotistical perspective of some players, because they don't want to have their experience influenced by the opinions of other players ... in a MMO. It sure is easier pitting one group against another then just assuming responsibility for ones singular opinion.
Yeah .. i just find it frustrating when people use circular logic or strawman arguments. It's like they had this dialogue in their heads play out. Everything worked out fine in this imaginary world, but when a real world counter argument is applied, they still go through with their dream-dialogue.
And then always these blatant generalisations. "One PvPer said..." , so every other vaguely pro PvP player must have the same opinion.
Or just ignoring other options, "You can't have your pie and eat it". Sure i can, it's called ballance.
What it comes down to is egos and the egotistical perspective of some players, because they don't want to have their experience influenced by the opinions of other players ... in a MMO and it sure is easier pitting one group against another then just assuming responsibility for ones singular opinion.
And, ignoring years of data, actual patch notes, and statements from devs then going straight to the pvp forums and blaming pvpers for a "nerf" that the devs said many times was a bug to begin with.
And, ignoring years of data, actual patch notes, and statements from devs then going straight to the pvp forums and blaming pvpers for a "nerf" that the devs said many times was a bug to begin with.
As if there aren't folks in the PvE community, folks that don't PvP, that are also pointing out such issues... some of the folks out there have created this PvP vs. PvE thing, when it's really just a case of those that want some sort of balance vs. those that - well - I can't think of a nice way to put it...
There are folks that things really are too hard for them otherwise. I don't know how or why...but they are too hard for them. There are the folks that despise the grind, so they want to be able to grind as fast as possible. I have no idea why they want to do that...so they can grind faster? At least with most MMOs, there's some sort of actual progression with the carrot on a stick grind. With STO, it's just grinding to grind the same ol' grind faster.
There are just some folks that want the easy way out of things - so they can get it over and done with...but then why on Earth are they even bothering in the first place? To me at least, that's a pretty miserable way to go about something that's supposed to be entertaining...it's kind of masochistic.
...but yeah, bad news for the folks that wished PvP didn't exist in the game - there would still be folks pointing out that things are broken. Damn them, eh? Damn all those honest folks...how dare they????
At least with most MMOs, there's some sort of actual progression with the carrot on a stick grind.
All MMO grind is the same - you grind to get access to better gear, so you can grind to get access to better gear.
What else could there be?
Some super-duper-awesome story mission that you can only get if you grind the best gear there is? At best you grind to get access to some particular mission. But that will usually be some kind of repeatable multiplayer mission so mostly consist of fighting, and give you rewards that you grind some more. The tiny bit of story that might included there you could read up on in the game's wiki.
The grind exists so you keep playing. And it isn't all bad, as long as you have fun playing the game. Ultimately, the only purpose of playing is because it's entertainment.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
All MMO grind is the same - you grind to get access to better gear, so you can grind to get access to better gear.
The typical grind is the following:
1) While leveling and doing missions, you get Gear A that allows you run Dungeon A.
2) Running Dungeon A gets you Gear B that allows you to run Dungeon B.
3) Running Dungeon B gets you Gear C that allows you to run Dungeon C.
4) Running Dungeon C gets you Gear D that allows you to run Raid A.
5) Running Raid A gets you Gear E that allows you to run Raid B.
6) Running Raid B gets you Gear F that allows you to run Raid C.
7) Running Raid C gets you Gear G that allows you to brag on the forums.
8) Level cap's increased and you get Gear A2 that allows you to run Dungeon A2.
9) Running Dungeon A2 gets you Gear B2 that allows you to run Dungeon B2.
10) Running Dungeon B2 gets you Gear C2 that allows you to run Dungeon C2.
11) Running Dungeon C2 gets you Gear D2 that allows you to run Raid A2.
12) Running Raid A2 gets you Gear E2 that allows you to run Raid B2.
13) Running Raid B2 gets you Gear F2 that allows you to run Raid C2.
14) Running Raid C2 gets you Gear G2 that allows you to brag on the forums.
15) Level cap's increased and you get Gear A3 that allows you to run Dungeon A3.
16) Running Dungeon A3 gets you Gear B3 that allows you to run Dungeon B3.
17) Running Dungeon B3 gets you Gear C3 that allows you to run Dungeon C3.
18) Running Dungeon C3 gets you Gear D3 that allows you to run Raid A3.
19) Running Raid A3 gets you Gear E3 that allows you to run Raid B3.
20) Running Raid B3 gets you Gear F3 that allows you to run Raid C3.
21) Running Raid C3 gets you Gear G3 that allows you to brag on the forums.
Etc, etc, etc...over and over.
STO on the other hand...
1) While leveling and doing missions, you get Gear A that allows you run Dungeon A.
2) Running Dungeon A gets you Gear B that allows you to...continue running Dungeon A.
3) More stuff is added, so running more of Dungeon A gets you Gear C that allows you to...continue running Dungeon A.
Etc, etc, etc...over and over.
If STO followed the typical grind pattern, we might have seen something like the following...
Level to 50.
Run ISN to get gear to run CSN.
Run CSN to get gear to run KASN.
Run KASN to get gear to run HOS.
Run HOS to get gear to run ISE.
Run ISE to get gear to run CSE.
Run CSE to get gear to run KASE.
Run KASE to get gear to run HOE.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Tholians.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Voth.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Undine.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Iconians.
Or any sort of mix...but basically where the grind was from point A to point B rather than grinding in circles around point A until the end of time...
Much like the MMO Trinity, I'm not a fan of the carrot on a stick grind thing either...but compared to the pointless grind we have in STO that's led to such ridiculous powercreep....meh, oh well.
Then again, if we were to be honest about where we are with things...
Let's look at a Phaser Relay...level 40, it's a Common Mk IX. The Uncommon Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk X. The Rare Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk XI. That's level 45. The Very Rare Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk XII.
So an Uncommon Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XIII. The Rare Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XIV. The Very Rare Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XV. Ultra Rare...? The ATVx consoles have the same +1.9% increase we've been looking at...so we're looking at a Common Mk XVI level of gearing.
We've got Mk XVI gear in the game already. We're already at level 55 or even beyond that...
...but yeah, bad news for the folks that wished PvP didn't exist in the game - there would still be folks pointing out that things are broken. Damn them, eh? Damn all those honest folks...how dare they????
Damn them, indeed. O, not the honest folks, but the extremely disingenuous ones, 'brave' enough to call for nerfs when it suits them, meanwhile exploiting every beta-stacking, double-tap, Valdore Console, and everything else they can find (before the devs catch up) to give em a dishonest advantage. Not so quick to point out their exploitive tricks to the devs on those, are they??? Or make those tricks public even.
Yeah, it's all about PvP-ers not being able to stand that some could defend themselves in a passive manner, without much effort. Then it's all "Waah! I can't make an easy kill any more! Please, dev, take out your nerf bat!"
And then ppl try to sell that as honesty. Ugh! I have never seen so much hypocrisy as in this thread! I should make a list of exploits that need fixing (and don't worry, it will be a short list, as I know only 1 or 2 of those tricks). And then we'll nerf those. Hard. And then we'll come back and have a talk about honesty again.
Damn them, indeed. O, not the honest folks, but the extremely disingenuous ones, 'brave' enough to call for nerfs when it suits them, meanwhile exploiting every beta-stacking, double-tap, Valdore Console, and everything else they can find (before the devs catch up) to give em a dishonest advantage. Not so quick to point out their exploitive tricks to the devs on those, are they??? Or make those tricks public even.
Are you suggesting that's something that I do? Cause a quick, lol - who am I kidding - there's no quick check of my post history...but a check of my post history will show a tendency on my part to ask for tweaks for things that I've used and a general issue of ticking off about pretty much everybody and anybody with wanting some sort of idealistic balanced game.
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use Y and defend Y? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use X? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that find something out, know that it's off, try to keep it secret so they can get the most out of it before Cryptic does anything? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
It's not a PvP vs. PvE thing. It's a person thing, regardless of whether they prefer PvP, prefer PvE, or enjoy both equally.
With my own main builds, I've not hidden anything about them - back when I still had Plague and Prophet I posted them. I've posted Willard's build numerous times as it has changed. Beyond that, I've even pointed out the weaknesses in the builds and how best to kill them. I've pointed out flaws in my own playstyle that provides means for folks to take advantage and to frag me.
I just don't have that kind of ego where I care about that.
I want a balanced game. I want the correct information available to everybody.
Even with the information side, if I believe somebody's wrong on something - I'll argue until I'm blue in the face about it. If it turns out in the end that I'm wrong, I thank them and generally apologize...and then I start sharing that info just like I shared the other info. Once again possibly finding myself arguing with folks until I'm blue in the face about it.
I just don't have that kind of ego where I care about that...I don't need to be the best or even better than the next guy. I don't need to always be right...I just need the info to be right, regardless of who it came from.
Yeah, it's all about PvP-ers not being able to stand that some could defend themselves in a passive manner, without much effort. Then it's all "Waah! I can't make an easy kill any more! Please, dev, take out your nerf bat!"
Where one in turn could say it's all about certain PvE folks that lack even the most basic ability/skills/knowledge to do something without requiring every single possible crutch that Cryptic can provide...that certain PvE folks use Short Bus Internet, serving the special internet needs of the special needs internet user. But that would be insulting...it's far more simple to point to Cryptic trying continuously to expand their customerbase by attracting ever more casual players...and well, certain PvE folks just don't want to think of themselves as such (while there are other casual players that are honest with themselves and fine with that).
Some folks (PvE or PvP) just don't want the mirror held up in front of them...
And then ppl try to sell that as honesty. Ugh! I have never seen so much hypocrisy as in this thread! I should make a list of exploits that need fixing (and don't worry, it will be a short list, as I know only 1 or 2 of those tricks). And then we'll nerf those. Hard. And then we'll come back and have a talk about honesty again.
You know...you might seriously want to consider who you quote next time...before doing a post like this. Even people that don't like me, might call me a few names in the process, will still look at your reply here with a WTF...
edit: Given your reply, how does the following fit into that...
You can still use Singularity Jump or Warp Shadows to break contact and make the Impulse Burst easier to pull off. You should then be a decent distance away from your opponent as Battlecloak comes back off of cooldown.
You can also hit that target with a number of Sci Abilities that are 100% to hit - you could hit them with a Torp Spread with a number of torpedoes which are also 100% to hit.
It's a team game, not everybody can do everything - sometimes you need somebody else on the team to do it...but just because somebody can do something you can't effectively counter with a particular build doesn't mean that there's an issue with their build.
Then again, Cryptic is more likely just to buff everything else to deal with such complaints.
Player#1: Nerf X, because I can't Y.
Cryptic: Here, we'll buff Y.
Player#2: Hey, you nerfed X by buffing Y.
Cryptic: Here, we'll buff X.
Player#1: Hey, you need to nerf X because I can't Y.
Over and over and over...
...if folks would just accept that they can't do everything and that sometimes they're going to try harder or think more because they didn't bring exactly what was needed - the game would be a Hell of a lot less silly than it is now.
Lol, not arguing that Warbirds are balanced in the least. But the argument's not just Warbirds. It included other gearing available to all and made it appear that there was nothing that could be done.
Is a Warbird balanced vs. an Escort/Destroyer/Raptor/Raider? Lol, not a chance in Hell - they must have added Medical Marijuana coverage to Cryptic's health insurance and everybody came down with a case of carpal tunnel for them to have done what they did with Warbirds...
Thing is, a single scenario is being looked at with them and a change being suggested based on that...something that's not far off from the basic complaints that existed for KDF Raiders in the past after the Imp Cell was made xfaction. They'd drop in and they'd drop out...zooooom. Same with the EPtE changes with LoR...folks would drop in and they'd drop out...zoooom!
What about the folks that aren't dropping in and dropping out...going zoom? It's suggesting a base change to a ship that will affect all playstyles rather than addressing the potential issue that exists from certain players being able to put together a series of abilities/clickies/etc to do something.
Shouldn't it be a case of looking at the scenario and attempting to change that rather than trying to nerf all Warbirds?
Take Willard for example...he's a bad example, cause he's not a vaper...but he is an escaper, just not a runner - but an escaper all the same.
KHG Shields w/Subvert Targeting Array
T4 Romulan Sensor Targeting Assault
Singularity Core with Improved Singularity Jump
Singularity Jump itself
Singularity Stabilizer for more Singularity fun
Singularity Specialist for increased Singularity gain
Warp Shadows
Photonic Fleet
Nimbus Pirates
Intimidating Strikes
Romulan Enhanced Battle Cloak
Barrier Field Generator
Feign Death
Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Temporal Distortion Device
Tricobalt Torpedo
Gravimetric Photon Torpedo
Elachi Subspace Torpedo
Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo
Hargh'peng Torpedo
Breen Cluster
Grav Well
TS1, APD1, TS3, APO1
TT1
ET1, AtS1
ST1, TSS2, GW1
PH1, HE2
~135% bonus defense while cloaked
Changing the Impulse Mod...wouldn't do a damn thing to change any of that.
Now for some guy that's got no idea that folks are using Imp Cells, much less what an Imp Cell is, while bouncing with Singularity Jump, getting out of range, hitting up the cloak again, etc, etc, etc...for him to end up with his Impulse Mod nerfed? I just don't see it. I just don't get it.
Is there a problem there? Lol...no sh...er...yeah, there's definitely a problem with Warbirds. Heck, there are multiple problems not only with Warbirds but with BOFFs, etc, etc, etc. Those definitely should be addressed...
...and even with there being the problem, there's still the problem of the 100% to hit Sci abilities and the 100% to hit Torp Spread. Those are problems too. There's all sorts of problems...game's whacky as they come - flaky to the max.
Simplest solution to the guy bouncing with the Imp Cell after a Singularity Jump would be to have the Singularity Jump lock out the use of the Imp Cell...simplest solution to the guy bouncing with EPtE after a Singularity Jump would be to have it drain Engine Power in the process while preventing any "speed buffs" to apply (things that do other than a speed buff would still apply their things, but the speed buff action wouldn't count). And while I say simplest, none of it is really simple...but it's taking a look at the observed problem and trying to tweak it rather than taking it out with a basket of grenades, no?
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use Y and defend Y? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use X? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that find something out, know that it's off, try to keep it secret so they can get the most out of it before Cryptic does anything? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
I'll give you all of these, as hypocrisy is hardly a PvP exclusive thing, really. More like a human thing.
With my own main builds, I've not hidden anything about them - back when I still had Plague and Prophet I posted them. I've posted Willard's build numerous times as it has changed. Beyond that, I've even pointed out the weaknesses in the builds and how best to kill them. I've pointed out flaws in my own playstyle that provides means for folks to take advantage and to frag me.
Indeed, you post your builds and tricks. Which is much appreciated. There are others, however (who shall remain unnnamed, so as not to make things worse) who keep most of their builds rather hidden. Which they have every right to do, of course.
My point just is, there's several folks who know, for lack of a better term, how to exploit the system, and do things with it that were clearly not intended, and generally kept out of the scope of the devs (who, of course, eventually find out anyway). And those are, naturally, almost, amongst the best PvP-ers. And it p*sses me off, to no end, to hear them go all mature on the community when a 'good' nerf is being made, whilst themselves relying on 10 or so dirty tricks that should have been nerfed right off the bat.
As for you, I probably should have picked another post to respond to, as I clearly had not you in mind at all, in all of this. My bad.
I think this is the core of your problem, you believe that the devs are interested in balance and the primary reason that something isn't fixed is that evil players are keeping it a secret.
The sad truth is: The devs don't care about balance. We can scream at the top of our lungs that certain things are unbalanced and they just don't care. Or only react after many months or years.
Maybe you are too young to remember all the "Is this working as intended?" threads here in the PVP forums that collected everything that looked as if it might be bugged or unintentionally unbalanced. The dev response was ... well, there wasn't really a dev response to the vast majority of things that got listed. They simply didn't care.
Damn them, indeed. O, not the honest folks, but the extremely disingenuous ones, 'brave' enough to call for nerfs when it suits them, meanwhile exploiting every beta-stacking, double-tap, Valdore Console, and everything else they can find (before the devs catch up) to give em a dishonest advantage. Not so quick to point out their exploitive tricks to the devs on those, are they??? Or make those tricks public even.
You are making quite a generalization about people you don't even know. Trying to sound as if you have us figured out, but all you are doing is making yourself seem like a hypocrite. You aren't any better than the people that use exploits because you are defending against a bug fix. Cryptic should be able to fix bugs without people ranting about how "unfair" bug fixes are to their long overpowered item(s). I'm also sick of people blaming PvPers for bug fixes. There are plenty of PvErs and PvPers alike that want the game to be balanced. As I said earlier, the current state of the Borg two piece allows players to tank an entire Elite STF in a Cruiser/Battle Cruiser without even wearing shields.
Yeah, it's all about PvP-ers not being able to stand that some could defend themselves in a passive manner, without much effort. Then it's all "Waah! I can't make an easy kill any more! Please, dev, take out your nerf bat!"
The fact that every PvE and PvP build was suggesting Elite Fleet Shields/MACO with two piece Borg made it very clear to the devs that something was very wrong with the two piece bonus. They found a bug and corrected it. Unfortunately, they didn't decrease the set's performance beyond fixing the bug. The set will remain overpowered until that passive regeneration bonus is decreased from +0.35 to +0.15 or +0.10.
Ugh! I have never seen so much hypocrisy as in this thread! I should make a list of exploits that need fixing (and don't worry, it will be a short list, as I know only 1 or 2 of those tricks). And then we'll nerf those. Hard. And then we'll come back and have a talk about honesty again.
Oh the irony of your comment here. Ripping on PvPers because some of them use broken stuff when you yourself admit to using broken stuff yourself. Then you go as far to call us hypocrites? Head off to Ten Forward, I'm sure they have a mirror in one of the roleplay threads for you to look in to see yourself. Generalizing every person that PvPs is absurd. There are many of us that actually have a sense of pride, avoid using bugged items, and report them vigilantly here on the forums. Just ask some of the people within the ground PvP community. Certain individuals aren't happy with me because I report every bug and imbalance I come across. Judging all of us on a generalization is unjustified.
The sad truth is: The devs don't care about balance. We can scream at the top of our lungs that certain things are unbalanced and they just don't care. Or only react after many months or years.
AdjudicatorHawk certainly cares about balance within the game. The number of bug fixes and imbalances he has pushed through for Ground PvP has greatly improved the quality of the gameplay. BorticusCryptic also has shown in the past that he dislikes game imbalances. There are times where I have questioned his opinion on things; the Subspace Rupture Console and the Subspace Manipulator Trait both come to mind. Overall though, he does seem to genuinely care about the balance of the game. Both devs frequently spend a lot of time here on the forums and collecting player feedback. Just look at the pre-klit revamp thread by AdjudicatorHawk from December and more recent comments by him on the Tribble forums.
I think this is the core of your problem, you believe that the devs are interested in balance and the only reason that something isn't fixed is that evil players are keeping it a secret.
I dunno. I think it stands to reason devs are always a bit behind the times, as it were. They're smart people, of course, but it's hard to keep up with an entire PvP-community being smart too, who try every bit of combination, until they find something that works a bit beyond what the devs had in mind.
The sad truth is: The devs don't care about balance. We can scream at the top of our lungs that certain things are unbalanced and they just don't care. Or only react after many months or years.
I'd like to think devs, given a choice, probably *do* care about balance, but an even greater 'evil' than PvP-ers is breathing down their necks to push out yet another half-broken Season. Which, in turns, make it even harder for them to go chase exploits.
Maybe you are too young to remember all the "Is this working as intended?" threads here in the PVP forums that collected everything that looked as if it might be bugged or unintentionally unbalanced. The dev response was ... well, there wasn't really a dev response to the vast majority of things that got listed. They simply didn't care.
Yup, must have been before my time. Though I haste to say I've seen devs not care plenty of times my own self (but usually about thing the PvP-comminity has likely little care for, such as things like Embassy boffs missing body parts, boffs not beating seated properly on their chairs, etc).
Oh the irony of your comment here. Ripping on PvPers because some of them use broken stuff when you yourself admit to using broken stuff yourself. Then you go as far to call us hypocrites? Head off to Ten Forward, I'm sure they have a mirror in one of the roleplay threads for you to look in to see yourself.
LOL. Nice try. But no, using 'broken' 'stuff itself does not make one a hypocrite. In fact, I use the Valdore console too. Big deal. But I wasn't the one blaming users of the Borg set, by claiming "some people like to knowingly use broken items." See, now *that* is hypocrisy!
My point just is, there's several folks who know, for lack of a better term, how to exploit the system, and do things with it that were clearly not intended, and generally kept out of the scope of the devs (who, of course, eventually find out anyway). And those are, naturally, almost, amongst the best PvP-ers. And it p*sses me off, to no end, to hear them go all mature on the community when a 'good' nerf is being made, whilst themselves relying on 10 or so dirty tricks that should have been nerfed right off the bat.
There is the appearance from some folks of the following:
Use X, until X becomes popular, meanwhile research has found Y, so push for the nerf to X while using Y and researching Z.
That sort of thing? There have been some posts in various threads where that feeling comes from certain groups.
It's much more common, imho, for the folks to do the Nerf X, Not Y when both X and Y may need some tweaking. I'm not a fan of the term nerf - kind of like noob, not a fan of that either. I see it more of a case of there being continuous tweaking to represent what's going on with the game while attempting to consider how new things will interact with the current.
Hell, I'm a hypocrite. I've still got Willard the Rat but I no longer have Geist. Yep, kept my Reman Sci in his T'varo while deleting the KDF Sci that was going to fly a B'rel. Heh, course I'm so bad at the game - that with all that OP nonsense - it just moves me up from extremely bad to pretty bad. :P
As an aside though, perhaps tossing fuel on the fire...in talking about investments, eh?
T2 Undine...up to +15% Accuracy? The +Accuracy/Perception DOFFs? Nukara console? How much have folks invested in [Acc]x? modded weapons? How is that investment going to feel? Yeah, I'm not generally a big fan of S9 so far...
I think it stands to reason devs are always a bit behind the times, as it were. They're smart people, of course, but it's hard to keep up with an entire PvP-community being smart too, who try every bit of combination, until they find something that works a bit beyond what the devs had in mind.
No. Many problems stem from the fact that the devs push things to Holodeck that are obviously unbalanced (and it is immediately after release or even still on Tribble pointed out that these things are unbalanced).
Once things are on Holodeck, they are afraid of properly rebalancing them because players have already invested time and money to acquire these overpowered items/abilities and only if things get really ugly they reluctantly act after several months (usually things need to have a large impact on PVE to draw dev attention).
Players finding combinations that have unintended consequences does happen, but I think more problems are rooted in bad initial design. I mean seriously, who ever thought that [Adapt] modifiers were a good idea? And who ran the numbers that initially had them at even better values than the still overpowered ones they are now? And who combined them with ResA/ResB modifiers? Who came up with SNB doffs that allowed a team that stacked them to subnuke a focus target every two seconds? Who devised a GravPulse that could be boosted to >50s? Who thought that giving the best CrtH values to a faction with battlecloak and singularity abilities for easy retreat was a good idea? Who came up with the T4 placate and the T4 shield healing passives?
These things did not get bad due to players using unthinkable combinations. These things were (and for the most part still are) broken by design.
AdjudicatorHawk certainly cares about balance within the game. The number of bug fixes and imbalances he has pushed through for Ground PvP has greatly improved the quality of the gameplay. BorticusCryptic also has shown in the past that he dislikes game imbalances. There are times where I have questioned his opinion on things; the Subspace Rupture Console and the Subspace Manipulator Trait both come to mind. Overall though, he does seem to genuinely care about the balance of the game. Both devs frequently spend a lot of time here on the forums and collecting player feedback. Just look at the pre-klit revamp thread by AdjudicatorHawk from December and more recent comments by him on the Tribble forums.
Mgt doesn't care to keep the game balanced in fact the more imbalanced it is the more they feel they'll make $$. So, really there's nothing a Dev can do in that environment. Though some had tried.
Also, for space Heretic was the last Dev that cared about balance and would actually nerf Doff powers. When he left w/our "PvP" Dev things went down hill fast. There really hasn't been an effort to balance anything.
Bort spent more time fixing bugs than really balancing the design. Tbh, I don't think he cares to PvP enough to have a real feel for the effects of things. He introduces things which are cool in theory, but OP in practice and it never occurs to him ahead of time. It's much easier to boost an effect after the fact then scale it back after the fact. But, Mgt wants sales, and usually a nerf/fix on something is followed by a sale/grind of something much similar but better.
Not sure how you can look at the escalation of powercreep and think there's any thought to balance. There's been massive cooldown reduction opportunities in Boff powers, removal of shared Boff power cooldowns, massive increases in passive resists, repairs, and crits, lots of pay for power consoles, lots of xtra power to systems, pay for power ships, pay for power weapons, etc.
There's a history of Devs making "balanced" pay ships which were revealed to be by design better many months later. This was when it was a sub based game. This gets back to Mgt and Geko.
Tbh, not sure that the players who are left really want this anyway. An example would be the vanilla/white PvP channel that's thread went nowhere fast. Even if the Devs put in an option to private match w/those type of restrictions rather than have an honor system it'd go the way of shuttle PvP.
Shuttle PvP which died fast didn't do so b/c of the lack of scaling. Imo, as bad as some combos can be it's still less of a powercreep that "end game" Space PvP is. People just couldn't handle popping quick or try to adapt their playstyle.
So uhm yeah ...
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Players finding combinations that have unintended consequences does happen, but I think more problems are rooted in bad initial design. I mean seriously, who ever thought that [Adapt] modifiers were a good idea? And who ran the numbers that initially had them at even better values than the still overpowered ones they are now? And who combined them with ResA/ResB modifiers? Who came up with SNB doffs that allowed a team that stacked them to subnuke a focus target every two seconds? Who devised a GravPulse that could be boosted to >50s? Who thought that giving the best CrtH values to a faction with battlecloak and singularity abilities for easy retreat was a good idea? Who came up with the T4 placate and the T4 shield healing passives?
These things did not get bad due to players using unthinkable combinations. These things were (and for the most part still are) broken by design.
They're bad for PvP. They're even bad for certain folks that PvE.
They're perfect for a company that's intended audience is not very experienced with games but that wants some of that Star Trek experience in their gaming. Sure, they didn't think about what some of the min/max folks in either PvP or PvE would do...but they don't think about them - they're not the intended audience.
Little gimmicks that let that new player blow something up - little gimmicks that have that shiny going for them until the next shinier gimmick...it all points to an intended audience for the game.
STO's not a game for any sort of min/maxer or hardcore player. Heck, they're the ones complaining all the time, no? Meanwhile you've got others out there asking for more and more and more and more...
...it's like Damian said, it's just a case of acceptance - STO is what it is. It's been a downhill battle since the F2P conversion...heck, even before that.
So while a bunch of folks may look around and notice folks are gone, channels are getting quieter, oddly enough the playerbase is growing and growing...
The "damn kids, get off my lawn" thing that some of us do while wagging our fingers at the screen's been replaced with "damn ol' fogies, get out of the way"...
As much as Bort and Gorn try to fix things...as much as Hawk talks about dynamic gameplay...in the end, they still answer to Captain Geko of the USS Monetize who works for Admiral D'An 2.0...
LOL. Nice try. But no, using 'broken' 'stuff itself does not make one a hypocrite. In fact, I use the Valdore console too. Big deal. But I wasn't the one blaming users of the Borg set, by claiming "some people like to knowingly use broken items." See, now *that* is hypocrisy!
(sigh), very well, I will elaborate as you are attempting to sidestep what I actually said. Here is an outline of all of your actions so far here in this thread up to my reply.
See it now? You call PvPers hypocrites because some of them use "Other stuff exists" bugs/imbalances. Yet, you are throwing everyone contradicting you in this thread into that category. Additionally, you admit that you yourself use the two piece borg bonus, which is known to be a bug in the current state. Berating others for using overperforming/bugged stuff while you yourself use something else that is known to be overperforming/bugged is hypocritical. You think you are above the rest of us in terms of what you can and cannot use.
(sigh), very well, I will elaborate as you are attempting to sidestep what I actually said. Here is Additionally, you admit that you yourself use the two piece borg bonus, which is known to be a bug in the current state. Berating others for using overperforming/bugged stuff while you yourself use something else that is known to be overperforming/bugged is hypocritical. You think you are above the rest of us in terms of what you can and cannot use.
You're still not getting it, are you? I'm not berating anyone for using OP stuff. What I *am* saying, though, is that IF people start to berate others for using 'broken' stuff, THEN they damn well better look into that mirror first, and stop using all kinds of exploits of their own.
So, in case you misunderstand again: everyone is free to use every bit of OP stuff they can find. Heck, I recently rolled a Rom, just so I could join in the OP-ness everyone (including myself) is on about. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't use exploits, and then go tell others 'their' Borg set needs to be nerfed because it was exploiting a bug. That kind of hypocrisy really grates on me badly.
You're still not getting it, are you? I'm not berating anyone for using OP stuff. What I *am* saying, though, is that IF people start to berate others for using 'broken' stuff, THEN they damn well better look into that mirror first, and stop using all kinds of exploits of their own.
Again you completely ignore what I said in order to sidestep my argument. You are blatantly berating PvPers in this thread under a generalization, you blame them for the bug fix, and you claim they ruin everything. I am a PvPer, you have another thing coming if you think I'm going to sit by while you make generalized attacks against me and others. It is hypocritical of you to call players hypocrites when they are not using bugged mechanics and you are using bugged mechanics.
I don't use the Borg set in space because I know how overpowered the set is right now. I've considered the Borg set to be bugged for a very long time. Fortunately, the devs found a bug with it on their own. The reason for this is likely due to the reputation system revamp and the set items re-balance. There are many PvPers with a sense of pride and actively avoid using overpowered/bugged mechanics.
So, in case you misunderstand again: everyone is free to use every bit of OP stuff they can find. Heck, I recently rolled a Rom, just so I could join in the OP-ness everyone (including myself) is on about. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't use exploits, and then go tell others 'their' Borg set needs to be nerfed because it was exploiting a bug. That kind of hypocrisy really grates on me badly.
True, everyone is free to use overpowered items, but don't start ripping on PvPers when those items get brought back into balance. You knew what you were doing when you slotted/bought said overpowered item, you knew there would be changes down the road, and yet you felt the temporary overpowered nature made the item worthwhile in the short term. Everyone that has purchased the Borg set since Season 7 has known this to be fact. The overpowered nature of the Borg set has been known since shortly after the set's creation and while it was still a random drop.
I am a PvPer, you have another thing coming if you think I'm going to sit by while you make generalized attacks against me and others.
Yeah, yeah, you're the big bad PvP-er; I get it.
It is hypocritical of you to call players hypocrites when they are not using bugged mechanics and you are using bugged mechanics.
Wait, wha?! Wasn't the whole cry for a nerf because *everyone* was using the Borg set?! (OMG! I said 'everyone'! What a gross generalization!)
And stop being so disingenuous. For the last time, I don't call ppl hypocrites for using 'bugged mechanics,' but because they put a halo around their own heads, piously stating how this Borg 'bug' needed to be fixed, whilst continuing to use all sorts of shady (and, for the most part, not public) mechanics themselves.
You knew what you were doing when you slotted/bought said overpowered item, you knew there would be changes down the road, and yet you felt the temporary overpowered nature made the item worthwhile in the short term.
Yeah, I hear that a lot. Truth, however, is, that when something is (very) public knowledge, and left unattended for several years, it then becomes entirely reasonable to expect that the way it functions was intended (or, subsidiarily, that the devs were okay with how it turned out); yes, even when it's good. So, I spent the last half year upgading all my old Mk XI Borg sets to Mk XII.
Also, be careful not to fall prey to the 'great equalizer fallacy,' where every top-of-the-line tem always needs to be nerfed, until it has become mainstream again... and then the next top-of-the-line item is up for a nerf again. Allow your mind to accept that some stuff will, and kinda needs to, be better than others.
Next on the agenda: let's nerf the Valdore console.
And stop being so disingenuous. For the last time, I don't call ppl hypocrites for using 'bugged mechanics,' but because they put a halo around their own heads, piously stating how this Borg 'bug' needed to be fixed, whilst continuing to use all sorts of shady (and, for the most part, not public) mechanics themselves.
The people that do that aren't restricted to the PvP community. The majority of people are not of that mindset and neither am I. All of my characters have their gateway profiles unlocked. I have always had it this way for anyone to see what I use. If you look, you will see that I do not use any of the "shady mechanics". There are many players with a similar sense of honor.
Yeah, I hear that a lot. Truth, however, is, that when something is (very) public knowledge, and left unattended for several years, it then becomes entirely reasonable to expect that the way it functions was intended (or, subsidiarily, that the devs were okay with how it turned out); yes, even when it's good. So, I spent the last half year upgading all my old Mk XI Borg sets to Mk XII.
A bug should be fixed and overpowered items should be balanced regardless of age. I'm certain you wouldn't be opposed for a bug fix to an item that is negatively affecting a player's performance...even if it were years old.
People paid money for that. Nerfing it now would be highly unfair.
And I didn't pay money for my 16 full Borg sets?! (And no, don't give me the you-can-grind-the-Dilithium-in-game routine: the same can be said for ppl and Zen).
People paid money for that. Nerfing it now would be highly unfair.
Except it was sold with notices that abilities are subject to change in the future. That notice is all over every single purchasable ship at the release of LoR.
This is no different to miles / points issued by airlines where they reserve the right to increase the cost of redemption in the future with or without notice, as an example. I am sure there are many other good examples.
And I didn't pay money for my 16 full Borg sets?! (And no, don't give me the you-can-grind-the-Dilithium-in-game routine: the same can be said for ppl and Zen).
Comments
How many times ... : A bug, discovered by a developer and subsequently fixed. No player involvement.
Choice ≠ just one usable item(-set) for a specific slot.
It's a common issue in the PvE vs. PvP threads. Egos. I hate stereotyping, but imho it tends to be the PvE ego unable to accept that they're not as good as they think they are or accepting the sheer number of crutches they're reliant upon.
In the end, that's what the 2pc Borg is - it's a crutch. It's a proc heal. Requires no active involvement from the player. They slot it, it does all the work, and they pat themselves on the back for it. By attempting to adjust an obviously broken item (much as is the case with any of the obviously broken items), you're attacking their egos. Without the various crutches, you're pointing out to them that perhaps they need to chill with patting themselves on the back so much.
Of course, the same thing comes up in threads other than PvE vs. PvP. The same "pointing out" takes place in discussions of certain things just within PvP threads. Some of the folks actually know the edge that it gives them - and - they're usually quiet. Those that have an inflated Ego because of some broken mechanic, just like the PvE folks - are generally there at the frontlines trying to defend the mechanic.
I'm not saying this as some PvP/PvE Rockstar. Not even a roadie. Not even a groupie. More like the guy that found out about the concert after it sold out....
Ive been saying it for a long time, that the PvE community is usually the nastier of the two regarding egos and flaming. They take things ultra serious but when you read their builds its so obvious they stack up the most passive way to NOT play the game its silly.
its also a major reason youll see some of these pve heroes come into PvP queues and start raging in zone when they get blown up, because they are so used to being handed everything just because they geared for it. God forbid they died because someone actually outplayed them or anything.
"youd never beat me one on one" Yeah right, never lost that challenge once.
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And then always these blatant generalisations. "One PvPer said..." , so every other vaguely pro PvP player must have the same opinion.
Or just ignoring other options, "You can't have your pie and eat it". Sure i can, it's called ballance.
What it comes down to is egos and the egotistical perspective of some players, because they don't want to have their experience influenced by the opinions of other players ... in a MMO. It sure is easier pitting one group against another then just assuming responsibility for ones singular opinion.
And, ignoring years of data, actual patch notes, and statements from devs then going straight to the pvp forums and blaming pvpers for a "nerf" that the devs said many times was a bug to begin with.
As if there aren't folks in the PvE community, folks that don't PvP, that are also pointing out such issues... some of the folks out there have created this PvP vs. PvE thing, when it's really just a case of those that want some sort of balance vs. those that - well - I can't think of a nice way to put it...
There are folks that things really are too hard for them otherwise. I don't know how or why...but they are too hard for them. There are the folks that despise the grind, so they want to be able to grind as fast as possible. I have no idea why they want to do that...so they can grind faster? At least with most MMOs, there's some sort of actual progression with the carrot on a stick grind. With STO, it's just grinding to grind the same ol' grind faster.
There are just some folks that want the easy way out of things - so they can get it over and done with...but then why on Earth are they even bothering in the first place? To me at least, that's a pretty miserable way to go about something that's supposed to be entertaining...it's kind of masochistic.
...but yeah, bad news for the folks that wished PvP didn't exist in the game - there would still be folks pointing out that things are broken. Damn them, eh? Damn all those honest folks...how dare they????
What else could there be?
Some super-duper-awesome story mission that you can only get if you grind the best gear there is? At best you grind to get access to some particular mission. But that will usually be some kind of repeatable multiplayer mission so mostly consist of fighting, and give you rewards that you grind some more. The tiny bit of story that might included there you could read up on in the game's wiki.
The grind exists so you keep playing. And it isn't all bad, as long as you have fun playing the game. Ultimately, the only purpose of playing is because it's entertainment.
The typical grind is the following:
1) While leveling and doing missions, you get Gear A that allows you run Dungeon A.
2) Running Dungeon A gets you Gear B that allows you to run Dungeon B.
3) Running Dungeon B gets you Gear C that allows you to run Dungeon C.
4) Running Dungeon C gets you Gear D that allows you to run Raid A.
5) Running Raid A gets you Gear E that allows you to run Raid B.
6) Running Raid B gets you Gear F that allows you to run Raid C.
7) Running Raid C gets you Gear G that allows you to brag on the forums.
8) Level cap's increased and you get Gear A2 that allows you to run Dungeon A2.
9) Running Dungeon A2 gets you Gear B2 that allows you to run Dungeon B2.
10) Running Dungeon B2 gets you Gear C2 that allows you to run Dungeon C2.
11) Running Dungeon C2 gets you Gear D2 that allows you to run Raid A2.
12) Running Raid A2 gets you Gear E2 that allows you to run Raid B2.
13) Running Raid B2 gets you Gear F2 that allows you to run Raid C2.
14) Running Raid C2 gets you Gear G2 that allows you to brag on the forums.
15) Level cap's increased and you get Gear A3 that allows you to run Dungeon A3.
16) Running Dungeon A3 gets you Gear B3 that allows you to run Dungeon B3.
17) Running Dungeon B3 gets you Gear C3 that allows you to run Dungeon C3.
18) Running Dungeon C3 gets you Gear D3 that allows you to run Raid A3.
19) Running Raid A3 gets you Gear E3 that allows you to run Raid B3.
20) Running Raid B3 gets you Gear F3 that allows you to run Raid C3.
21) Running Raid C3 gets you Gear G3 that allows you to brag on the forums.
Etc, etc, etc...over and over.
STO on the other hand...
1) While leveling and doing missions, you get Gear A that allows you run Dungeon A.
2) Running Dungeon A gets you Gear B that allows you to...continue running Dungeon A.
3) More stuff is added, so running more of Dungeon A gets you Gear C that allows you to...continue running Dungeon A.
Etc, etc, etc...over and over.
If STO followed the typical grind pattern, we might have seen something like the following...
Level to 50.
Run ISN to get gear to run CSN.
Run CSN to get gear to run KASN.
Run KASN to get gear to run HOS.
Run HOS to get gear to run ISE.
Run ISE to get gear to run CSE.
Run CSE to get gear to run KASE.
Run KASE to get gear to run HOE.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Tholians.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Voth.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Undine.
Level Cap Increased.
A set of "dungeons" dealing with the Iconians.
Or any sort of mix...but basically where the grind was from point A to point B rather than grinding in circles around point A until the end of time...
Much like the MMO Trinity, I'm not a fan of the carrot on a stick grind thing either...but compared to the pointless grind we have in STO that's led to such ridiculous powercreep....meh, oh well.
Then again, if we were to be honest about where we are with things...
Let's look at a Phaser Relay...level 40, it's a Common Mk IX. The Uncommon Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk X. The Rare Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk XI. That's level 45. The Very Rare Mk IX is the same as a Common Mk XII.
So an Uncommon Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XIII. The Rare Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XIV. The Very Rare Mk XII is the same as a Common Mk XV. Ultra Rare...? The ATVx consoles have the same +1.9% increase we've been looking at...so we're looking at a Common Mk XVI level of gearing.
We've got Mk XVI gear in the game already. We're already at level 55 or even beyond that...
Damn them, indeed. O, not the honest folks, but the extremely disingenuous ones, 'brave' enough to call for nerfs when it suits them, meanwhile exploiting every beta-stacking, double-tap, Valdore Console, and everything else they can find (before the devs catch up) to give em a dishonest advantage. Not so quick to point out their exploitive tricks to the devs on those, are they??? Or make those tricks public even.
Yeah, it's all about PvP-ers not being able to stand that some could defend themselves in a passive manner, without much effort. Then it's all "Waah! I can't make an easy kill any more! Please, dev, take out your nerf bat!"
And then ppl try to sell that as honesty. Ugh! I have never seen so much hypocrisy as in this thread! I should make a list of exploits that need fixing (and don't worry, it will be a short list, as I know only 1 or 2 of those tricks). And then we'll nerf those. Hard. And then we'll come back and have a talk about honesty again.
Are you suggesting that's something that I do? Cause a quick, lol - who am I kidding - there's no quick check of my post history...but a check of my post history will show a tendency on my part to ask for tweaks for things that I've used and a general issue of ticking off about pretty much everybody and anybody with wanting some sort of idealistic balanced game.
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use Y and defend Y? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that are hypocrites, in the sense of calling for tweaks to X while continuing to use X? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
Are there folks that find something out, know that it's off, try to keep it secret so they can get the most out of it before Cryptic does anything? Sure there are...PvE and PvP folks alike.
It's not a PvP vs. PvE thing. It's a person thing, regardless of whether they prefer PvP, prefer PvE, or enjoy both equally.
With my own main builds, I've not hidden anything about them - back when I still had Plague and Prophet I posted them. I've posted Willard's build numerous times as it has changed. Beyond that, I've even pointed out the weaknesses in the builds and how best to kill them. I've pointed out flaws in my own playstyle that provides means for folks to take advantage and to frag me.
I just don't have that kind of ego where I care about that.
I want a balanced game. I want the correct information available to everybody.
Even with the information side, if I believe somebody's wrong on something - I'll argue until I'm blue in the face about it. If it turns out in the end that I'm wrong, I thank them and generally apologize...and then I start sharing that info just like I shared the other info. Once again possibly finding myself arguing with folks until I'm blue in the face about it.
I just don't have that kind of ego where I care about that...I don't need to be the best or even better than the next guy. I don't need to always be right...I just need the info to be right, regardless of who it came from.
Where one in turn could say it's all about certain PvE folks that lack even the most basic ability/skills/knowledge to do something without requiring every single possible crutch that Cryptic can provide...that certain PvE folks use Short Bus Internet, serving the special internet needs of the special needs internet user. But that would be insulting...it's far more simple to point to Cryptic trying continuously to expand their customerbase by attracting ever more casual players...and well, certain PvE folks just don't want to think of themselves as such (while there are other casual players that are honest with themselves and fine with that).
Some folks (PvE or PvP) just don't want the mirror held up in front of them...
You know...you might seriously want to consider who you quote next time...before doing a post like this. Even people that don't like me, might call me a few names in the process, will still look at your reply here with a WTF...
edit: Given your reply, how does the following fit into that...
No, you were not amongst the ppl I had in mind.
I'll give you all of these, as hypocrisy is hardly a PvP exclusive thing, really. More like a human thing.
Indeed, you post your builds and tricks. Which is much appreciated. There are others, however (who shall remain unnnamed, so as not to make things worse) who keep most of their builds rather hidden. Which they have every right to do, of course.
My point just is, there's several folks who know, for lack of a better term, how to exploit the system, and do things with it that were clearly not intended, and generally kept out of the scope of the devs (who, of course, eventually find out anyway). And those are, naturally, almost, amongst the best PvP-ers. And it p*sses me off, to no end, to hear them go all mature on the community when a 'good' nerf is being made, whilst themselves relying on 10 or so dirty tricks that should have been nerfed right off the bat.
As for you, I probably should have picked another post to respond to, as I clearly had not you in mind at all, in all of this. My bad.
The sad truth is: The devs don't care about balance. We can scream at the top of our lungs that certain things are unbalanced and they just don't care. Or only react after many months or years.
Maybe you are too young to remember all the "Is this working as intended?" threads here in the PVP forums that collected everything that looked as if it might be bugged or unintentionally unbalanced. The dev response was ... well, there wasn't really a dev response to the vast majority of things that got listed. They simply didn't care.
The fact that every PvE and PvP build was suggesting Elite Fleet Shields/MACO with two piece Borg made it very clear to the devs that something was very wrong with the two piece bonus. They found a bug and corrected it. Unfortunately, they didn't decrease the set's performance beyond fixing the bug. The set will remain overpowered until that passive regeneration bonus is decreased from +0.35 to +0.15 or +0.10.
Oh the irony of your comment here. Ripping on PvPers because some of them use broken stuff when you yourself admit to using broken stuff yourself. Then you go as far to call us hypocrites? Head off to Ten Forward, I'm sure they have a mirror in one of the roleplay threads for you to look in to see yourself. Generalizing every person that PvPs is absurd. There are many of us that actually have a sense of pride, avoid using bugged items, and report them vigilantly here on the forums. Just ask some of the people within the ground PvP community. Certain individuals aren't happy with me because I report every bug and imbalance I come across. Judging all of us on a generalization is unjustified.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
AdjudicatorHawk certainly cares about balance within the game. The number of bug fixes and imbalances he has pushed through for Ground PvP has greatly improved the quality of the gameplay. BorticusCryptic also has shown in the past that he dislikes game imbalances. There are times where I have questioned his opinion on things; the Subspace Rupture Console and the Subspace Manipulator Trait both come to mind. Overall though, he does seem to genuinely care about the balance of the game. Both devs frequently spend a lot of time here on the forums and collecting player feedback. Just look at the pre-klit revamp thread by AdjudicatorHawk from December and more recent comments by him on the Tribble forums.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I dunno. I think it stands to reason devs are always a bit behind the times, as it were. They're smart people, of course, but it's hard to keep up with an entire PvP-community being smart too, who try every bit of combination, until they find something that works a bit beyond what the devs had in mind.
I'd like to think devs, given a choice, probably *do* care about balance, but an even greater 'evil' than PvP-ers is breathing down their necks to push out yet another half-broken Season. Which, in turns, make it even harder for them to go chase exploits.
Yup, must have been before my time. Though I haste to say I've seen devs not care plenty of times my own self (but usually about thing the PvP-comminity has likely little care for, such as things like Embassy boffs missing body parts, boffs not beating seated properly on their chairs, etc).
LOL. Nice try.
There is the appearance from some folks of the following:
Use X, until X becomes popular, meanwhile research has found Y, so push for the nerf to X while using Y and researching Z.
That sort of thing? There have been some posts in various threads where that feeling comes from certain groups.
It's much more common, imho, for the folks to do the Nerf X, Not Y when both X and Y may need some tweaking. I'm not a fan of the term nerf - kind of like noob, not a fan of that either. I see it more of a case of there being continuous tweaking to represent what's going on with the game while attempting to consider how new things will interact with the current.
Hell, I'm a hypocrite. I've still got Willard the Rat but I no longer have Geist. Yep, kept my Reman Sci in his T'varo while deleting the KDF Sci that was going to fly a B'rel. Heh, course I'm so bad at the game - that with all that OP nonsense - it just moves me up from extremely bad to pretty bad. :P
As an aside though, perhaps tossing fuel on the fire...in talking about investments, eh?
T2 Undine...up to +15% Accuracy? The +Accuracy/Perception DOFFs? Nukara console? How much have folks invested in [Acc]x? modded weapons? How is that investment going to feel? Yeah, I'm not generally a big fan of S9 so far...
Once things are on Holodeck, they are afraid of properly rebalancing them because players have already invested time and money to acquire these overpowered items/abilities and only if things get really ugly they reluctantly act after several months (usually things need to have a large impact on PVE to draw dev attention).
Players finding combinations that have unintended consequences does happen, but I think more problems are rooted in bad initial design. I mean seriously, who ever thought that [Adapt] modifiers were a good idea? And who ran the numbers that initially had them at even better values than the still overpowered ones they are now? And who combined them with ResA/ResB modifiers? Who came up with SNB doffs that allowed a team that stacked them to subnuke a focus target every two seconds? Who devised a GravPulse that could be boosted to >50s? Who thought that giving the best CrtH values to a faction with battlecloak and singularity abilities for easy retreat was a good idea? Who came up with the T4 placate and the T4 shield healing passives?
These things did not get bad due to players using unthinkable combinations. These things were (and for the most part still are) broken by design.
Mgt doesn't care to keep the game balanced in fact the more imbalanced it is the more they feel they'll make $$. So, really there's nothing a Dev can do in that environment. Though some had tried.
Also, for space Heretic was the last Dev that cared about balance and would actually nerf Doff powers. When he left w/our "PvP" Dev things went down hill fast. There really hasn't been an effort to balance anything.
Bort spent more time fixing bugs than really balancing the design. Tbh, I don't think he cares to PvP enough to have a real feel for the effects of things. He introduces things which are cool in theory, but OP in practice and it never occurs to him ahead of time. It's much easier to boost an effect after the fact then scale it back after the fact. But, Mgt wants sales, and usually a nerf/fix on something is followed by a sale/grind of something much similar but better.
Not sure how you can look at the escalation of powercreep and think there's any thought to balance. There's been massive cooldown reduction opportunities in Boff powers, removal of shared Boff power cooldowns, massive increases in passive resists, repairs, and crits, lots of pay for power consoles, lots of xtra power to systems, pay for power ships, pay for power weapons, etc.
There's a history of Devs making "balanced" pay ships which were revealed to be by design better many months later. This was when it was a sub based game. This gets back to Mgt and Geko.
Tbh, not sure that the players who are left really want this anyway. An example would be the vanilla/white PvP channel that's thread went nowhere fast. Even if the Devs put in an option to private match w/those type of restrictions rather than have an honor system it'd go the way of shuttle PvP.
Shuttle PvP which died fast didn't do so b/c of the lack of scaling. Imo, as bad as some combos can be it's still less of a powercreep that "end game" Space PvP is. People just couldn't handle popping quick or try to adapt their playstyle.
So uhm yeah ...
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
They're bad for PvP. They're even bad for certain folks that PvE.
They're perfect for a company that's intended audience is not very experienced with games but that wants some of that Star Trek experience in their gaming. Sure, they didn't think about what some of the min/max folks in either PvP or PvE would do...but they don't think about them - they're not the intended audience.
Little gimmicks that let that new player blow something up - little gimmicks that have that shiny going for them until the next shinier gimmick...it all points to an intended audience for the game.
STO's not a game for any sort of min/maxer or hardcore player. Heck, they're the ones complaining all the time, no? Meanwhile you've got others out there asking for more and more and more and more...
...it's like Damian said, it's just a case of acceptance - STO is what it is. It's been a downhill battle since the F2P conversion...heck, even before that.
So while a bunch of folks may look around and notice folks are gone, channels are getting quieter, oddly enough the playerbase is growing and growing...
The "damn kids, get off my lawn" thing that some of us do while wagging our fingers at the screen's been replaced with "damn ol' fogies, get out of the way"...
As much as Bort and Gorn try to fix things...as much as Hawk talks about dynamic gameplay...in the end, they still answer to Captain Geko of the USS Monetize who works for Admiral D'An 2.0...
(sigh), very well, I will elaborate as you are attempting to sidestep what I actually said. Here is an outline of all of your actions so far here in this thread up to my reply.
Bereavement of PvP players over a dev led bug fix:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15870231&postcount=46
Denying the bug fix as a bug fix:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15871321&postcount=51
Denying the effectiveness of the pre-bug fixed version of the ability:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15872471&postcount=57
Admitting that the bug fixed version will make it more difficult to survive without it. Contradicting your previous statement:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15872561&postcount=58
Backtracking and claiming it shouldn't have been fixed because you "invested into it":
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15872741&postcount=60
Again claiming that "PvPers ruin everything" and berating them for the bug fix:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15873091&postcount=63
Admitting that the borg two piece bonus was too powerful prior to the bug fix:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15873141&postcount=64
Making an "Other stuff exists" argument as a reason why this bug fix shouldn't have happened. Again berating PvPers over the issue:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15876321&postcount=86
Attempting to deflect the fact that this is a global issue by pinning on a PvP tag:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15876431&postcount=88
Continuing with your "Other stuff exists" arguement:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15876561&postcount=91
Calling PvPers hypocrites for beating you in the argument on this subject:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=15881131&postcount=101
See it now? You call PvPers hypocrites because some of them use "Other stuff exists" bugs/imbalances. Yet, you are throwing everyone contradicting you in this thread into that category. Additionally, you admit that you yourself use the two piece borg bonus, which is known to be a bug in the current state. Berating others for using overperforming/bugged stuff while you yourself use something else that is known to be overperforming/bugged is hypocritical. You think you are above the rest of us in terms of what you can and cannot use.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
You're still not getting it, are you? I'm not berating anyone for using OP stuff. What I *am* saying, though, is that IF people start to berate others for using 'broken' stuff, THEN they damn well better look into that mirror first, and stop using all kinds of exploits of their own.
So, in case you misunderstand again: everyone is free to use every bit of OP stuff they can find. Heck, I recently rolled a Rom, just so I could join in the OP-ness everyone (including myself) is on about. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't use exploits, and then go tell others 'their' Borg set needs to be nerfed because it was exploiting a bug. That kind of hypocrisy really grates on me badly.
I don't use the Borg set in space because I know how overpowered the set is right now. I've considered the Borg set to be bugged for a very long time. Fortunately, the devs found a bug with it on their own. The reason for this is likely due to the reputation system revamp and the set items re-balance. There are many PvPers with a sense of pride and actively avoid using overpowered/bugged mechanics.
True, everyone is free to use overpowered items, but don't start ripping on PvPers when those items get brought back into balance. You knew what you were doing when you slotted/bought said overpowered item, you knew there would be changes down the road, and yet you felt the temporary overpowered nature made the item worthwhile in the short term. Everyone that has purchased the Borg set since Season 7 has known this to be fact. The overpowered nature of the Borg set has been known since shortly after the set's creation and while it was still a random drop.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Yeah, yeah, you're the big bad PvP-er; I get it.
Wait, wha?! Wasn't the whole cry for a nerf because *everyone* was using the Borg set?! (OMG! I said 'everyone'! What a gross generalization!)
And stop being so disingenuous. For the last time, I don't call ppl hypocrites for using 'bugged mechanics,' but because they put a halo around their own heads, piously stating how this Borg 'bug' needed to be fixed, whilst continuing to use all sorts of shady (and, for the most part, not public) mechanics themselves.
Yeah, I hear that a lot. Truth, however, is, that when something is (very) public knowledge, and left unattended for several years, it then becomes entirely reasonable to expect that the way it functions was intended (or, subsidiarily, that the devs were okay with how it turned out); yes, even when it's good. So, I spent the last half year upgading all my old Mk XI Borg sets to Mk XII.
Also, be careful not to fall prey to the 'great equalizer fallacy,' where every top-of-the-line tem always needs to be nerfed, until it has become mainstream again... and then the next top-of-the-line item is up for a nerf again. Allow your mind to accept that some stuff will, and kinda needs to, be better than others.
Next on the agenda: let's nerf the Valdore console.
The people that do that aren't restricted to the PvP community. The majority of people are not of that mindset and neither am I. All of my characters have their gateway profiles unlocked. I have always had it this way for anyone to see what I use. If you look, you will see that I do not use any of the "shady mechanics". There are many players with a similar sense of honor.
A bug should be fixed and overpowered items should be balanced regardless of age. I'm certain you wouldn't be opposed for a bug fix to an item that is negatively affecting a player's performance...even if it were years old.
Agreed, it is time to make it more in line with the Solanae three piece set bonus.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
People paid money for that. Nerfing it now would be highly unfair.
And I didn't pay money for my 16 full Borg sets?! (And no, don't give me the you-can-grind-the-Dilithium-in-game routine: the same can be said for ppl and Zen).
Except it was sold with notices that abilities are subject to change in the future. That notice is all over every single purchasable ship at the release of LoR.
This is no different to miles / points issued by airlines where they reserve the right to increase the cost of redemption in the future with or without notice, as an example. I am sure there are many other good examples.
:rolleyes: