Check your geography books. Europe is not a 'country.' It's a continent.
In a universe where you can cover hundreds of light years in a short time conqueroring a couple of quadrants of a galaxy isn't that big of a deal. We're talking about weapons that vaporize cities with a single shot; even planets with a single shot assuming someone in the terran empire figured out the genesis device. Fly up to romulus and drop a genesis torpedo: goodbye romulus. All you need is one ultimate weapon to gain a lot of control.
You referred to germany and that is a country. Check your own posts.
For the rest of it:
Cant put that nicely. Someone believing one could essentially replace military practicing (=Wargames) though online games (= simulations), like you insisted in the other thread, will probably believe BS like that too.
Every sane person does not need an explanation why this is nonsense.
Everything's possible with an evil beard ... sorry but the MU was always kind of the BS-part of Star Trek, just for the fun of it ...
.. you could as well discuss the credibility of Ancient Greek Space Gods ...
Well... question is how far your suspension of disbelief goes, a lot of people will the same about Star Trek in general.
I'd say it should be consistent within itself, and the game MU representation is not....
To be fair the Dominions motives for the war are pretty reasonable. All of a sudden a bunch of people from across the galaxy find a wormhole into the middle of their territory and start poking around and even setting up colonies and the like.
The Dominion tell them to stop as is their right. The next thing these aliens do is ignore this and go to a planet in their space so the Dominion takes them prisoner and tries to learn about them.
Now suddenly they have what looks like a battleship in their space (we know the Galaxy class is an explorer because of TNG) so they defend themselves.
I wouldn't say "reasonable" but understandably form the founders point of view who are distrusting by nature and essentially control freaks.
You referred to germany and that is a country. Check your own posts.
For the rest of it:
Cant put that nicely. Someone believing one could essentially replace military practicing (=Wargames) though online games (= simulations), like you insisted in the other thread, will probably believe BS like that too.
Every sane person does not need an explanation why this is nonsense.
The last recourse of the small-minded who can't refute a point is to make a personal attack agaisnt the poster as a distraction. Thanks for showing your true colors.
The last recourse of the small-minded who can't refute a point is to make a personal attack agaisnt the poster as a distraction. Thanks for showing your true colors.
Lol. I'm the small minded, of course... :rolleyes:
I wouldn't say "reasonable" but understandably form the founders point of view who are distrusting by nature and essentially control freaks.
It is very reasonable , the Federation would of been the first to call foul if say the Klingon Empire just started setting up colonies deep in Federation held space. The Federation and the Bajorians went poking around in another sovereign powers space despite being told not to.
It is very reasonable , the Federation would of been the first to call foul if say the Klingon Empire just started setting up colonies deep in Federation held space. The Federation and the Bajorians went poking around in another sovereign powers space despite being told not to.
"Reasonable" would be expelling the invaders and putting minefields, etc. around their own end of the wormhole to ensure that they do not come back, and destroying any Alpha/Beta quadrant ship that dares to pass through the wormhole without permission. It crossed the line into unreasonable when instead the Dominion decided that they had to occupy the invaders' homeworlds instead of just making sure that they can't encroach on Dominion territory any more.
We are not talking about a country, we are talking about 2 quadrants of a galaxy. No, that much can not happen in 40 years.
Sure it can. Two whole quadrants means that many more resources, making exponential military growth that much simpler. Sure there would probably be a couple of wars with similar groups on the way, but that would only serve to blood whichever fleet survived.
Don't forget the Terran Empire almost certainly has no equivalent of the Prime Directive, so they can enslave almost uncountable numbers of people.
The Jem'Hadar introduces himself as Third Talak'talan of the Jem'Hadar and informs Kira that Commander Sisko has been detained indefinitely. Sisko, he says, will serve as an example to anyone who interferes with the Dominion by coming through the wormhole. Dax defiantly tells him that idle threats will not stop the Federation from exploring the Gamma Quadrant, so he walks through the force field and gives Kira a Bajoran PADD with a list of vessels he says have been destroyed for violating Dominion territory. The PADD came from New Bajor, he tells her, adding that they fought well for a "spiritual" people. He beams back aboard his ship and O'Brien attempts unsuccessfully to lock on with a tractor beam as it re-enters the wormhole.
The Dominion warns the Federation to basically butt out of the Gamma Quadrant, which is pretty much their territory, the seat of their empire. Naturally, the idea of a Starfleet officer being held indefinitely won't sit well, but the Federation doesn't even send diplomatic feelers to try to talk their way out of the problem, like the Federation has done in practically every other instance in Star Trek. Instead, the Federation sends a vessel of its most powerful type in service, the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey, into Dominion territory and use force in getting Sisko back.
So... a powerful vessel from a foreign power pops up in the middle of your territory, uninvited, after you've told those people to stay the hell out of your area, what do you think was supposed to happen?
The better part was Federation smugness leading them into an eventually disastrous war that would cost millions their lives. The same smugness the Federation had leading into their first encounter with the Borg.
Sure it can. Two whole quadrants means that many more resources, making exponential military growth that much simpler. Sure there would probably be a couple of wars with similar groups on the way, but that would only serve to blood whichever fleet survived.
Don't forget the Terran Empire almost certainly has no equivalent of the Prime Directive, so they can enslave almost uncountable numbers of people.
The humans were slaves 40 years ago.
They have to overthrow the very well intact alliance, that means the entire Klingon empire and the entire cardassian union FROM NOTHING.
They had ds9 conquered, that's it.
Then they would have to rebuild, build colonies and rebuild cities.
Then they have to regain a basic level of education among the general population.
Then, even with the resources generally available, they would have to START to gather them. They would have to build refineries and find people who do that.
Then they would have to GATHER them for a while before they can even think of building a fleet.
Then they have to build yards to build their ships.
And Then they can START building their fleet. Which means ALL the above must have happened within 10 years.
And since they didn't have any experienced engineers in ship construction that would be hard enough.
Cruisers like the Galaxy need years to be build, even as ships of the line. The MU starts by 0, they have to develops prototypes, test them and only then they can start building them.
And all that under the assumption that ALL the ship plans were stolen because if they would have to DESIGN the ships first, add at least another 10-20 years.
No, it's not remotely possible to rebuild the Terran empire writhing the sto time frame.
"Reasonable" would be expelling the invaders and putting minefields, etc. around their own end of the wormhole to ensure that they do not come back, and destroying any Alpha/Beta quadrant ship that dares to pass through the wormhole without permission. It crossed the line into unreasonable when instead the Dominion decided that they had to occupy the invaders' homeworlds instead of just making sure that they can't encroach on Dominion territory any more.
I'd say reasonable would be a clear warning first.
But again, the founders essentially consider everything that does not follow their sense if order, and everything they can not control as a thread. Which is why they had to make their created to be loyal army drug addicts to ensure their loyalty. This is why they created all their important servant races.
For them the dominion war was the only option. The only reaction the the chaotic alpha quadrant...
Without knowledgeable engineers, intact infrastructure, or even a functional drydock, they built the Defiant from scratch in a few months by just stealing the important information and some of the parts from the other side.
Without knowledgeable engineers, intact infrastructure, or even a functional drydock, they built the Defiant from scratch in a few months by just stealing the important information and some of the parts from the other side.
The Defaint is more of a boat then anything. A hyped shutle. Look at the msd alone.
And the whole reason why they got Sisko in there in that episode is because they didn't get it to work.
The humans were slaves 40 years ago.
They have to overthrow the very well intact alliance, that means the entire Klingon empire and the entire cardassian union FROM NOTHING.
They had ds9 conquered, that's it.
Then they would have to rebuild, build colonies and rebuild cities.
Then they have to regain a basic level of education among the general population.
Then, even with the resources generally available, they would have to START to gather them. They would have to build refineries and find people who do that.
Then they would have to GATHER them for a while before they can even think of building a fleet.
Then they have to build yards to build their ships.
And Then they can START building their fleet. Which means ALL the above must have happened within 10 years.
And since they didn't have any experienced engineers in ship construction that would be hard enough.
Cruisers like the Galaxy need years to be build, even as ships of the line. The MU starts by 0, they have to develops prototypes, test them and only then they can start building them.
And all that under the assumption that ALL the ship plans were stolen because if they would have to DESIGN the ships first, add at least another 10-20 years.
No, it's not remotely possible to rebuild the Terran empire writhing the sto time frame.
Exactly.
I'd have liked a storyline that had us either crossover to aid the rebels or at least fight the K-C alliance from our side. It seems more like someone wanted to cheap out by just recoloring the models for Feds rather than continue the existing canon, as most of STO does.
Dark Mirror is a very good book, but the books aren't generally considered canon. Even if we do consider it canon, the Alt-Enterprise-D had a different look, not just a splash of different paint.
"...the secondary hull seemed larger; the nacelles were raked farther forward, and lower. The primary hull's curve was deeper and now had a frowning look about it. If ship's had expressions this one had it's eyes narrowed. It was a cruel look, and intimidating. Just visible, because of the rake of the primary hull were the characters ICC 1701-D ISS Ent- The rest was curved away out of sight." ~Dark Mirror pg 62
The STO MU still bothers me.
Thanks everyone for the (mostly) thoughtful replies!
The humans were slaves 40 years ago.
They have to overthrow the very well intact alliance, that means the entire Klingon empire and the entire cardassian union FROM NOTHING.
They had ds9 conquered, that's it.
Then they would have to rebuild, build colonies and rebuild cities.
Then they have to regain a basic level of education among the general population.
Then, even with the resources generally available, they would have to START to gather them. They would have to build refineries and find people who do that.
Then they would have to GATHER them for a while before they can even think of building a fleet.
Then they have to build yards to build their ships.
And Then they can START building their fleet. Which means ALL the above must have happened within 10 years.
And since they didn't have any experienced engineers in ship construction that would be hard enough.
Cruisers like the Galaxy need years to be build, even as ships of the line. The MU starts by 0, they have to develops prototypes, test them and only then they can start building them.
And all that under the assumption that ALL the ship plans were stolen because if they would have to DESIGN the ships first, add at least another 10-20 years.
No, it's not remotely possible to rebuild the Terran empire writhing the sto time frame.
Or... they could have simply stolen ships from the Alliance... and used Alliance technology... and used their shipyards, their refineries, their materials... The Terran resistance seemed particularly skilled at stealing things... And humans in general are good at taking others ideas and things and using them for themselves... XD
And like was stated earlier, once they got going, it is no longer a case of linear growth in power, it becomes an exponential curve. With each world they conquer, each military installation they defeat, they gain the resources AND infrastructure of those places. Therefore it's actually entirely conceivable that with good leadership, they could easily have done what they supposedly did in the suggested time-frame.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Or... they could have simply stolen ships from the Alliance... and used Alliance technology... and used their shipyards, their refineries, their materials... The Terran resistance seemed particularly skilled at stealing things... And humans in general are good at taking others ideas and things and using them for themselves... XD
And like was stated earlier, once they got going, it is no longer a case of linear growth in power, it becomes an exponential curve. With each world they conquer, each military installation they defeat, they gain the resources AND infrastructure of those places. Therefore it's actually entirely conceivable that with good leadership, they could easily have done what they supposedly did in the suggested time-frame.
It may be plausible. It may not.
I think it is clearly insufficient story logic for the audience. Plenty of real things make for unsatisfying stories and even if there are realistic examples to explain the Terran resurgence, it's clearly been a story people have had a hard time stomaching since STO Beta.
I think most of us are glad to see that the MU is a Mirror again because the Terrans are cool villains but I don't think we're satisfied with how they got there. And regardless of what COULD be real, I think a story point like this needs to be emotionally satisfying to audiences and to players.
This isn't a real world. It's a game, yes. And that means the story should be emotionally stirring to increase investment in gameplay.
I think it is clearly insufficient story logic for the audience. Plenty of real things make for unsatisfying stories and even if there are realistic examples to explain the Terran resurgence, it's clearly been a story people have had a hard time stomaching since STO Beta.
I think most of us are glad to see that the MU is a Mirror again because the Terrans are cool villains but I don't think we're satisfied with how they got there. And regardless of what COULD be real, I think a story point like this needs to be emotionally satisfying to audiences and to players.
This isn't a real world. It's a game, yes. And that means the story should be emotionally stirring to increase investment in gameplay.
Maybe we'll get an MU FE series to explain it some day?
There is no logic or reason to a fictional mirror universe when it is dictated 100% by the whims of the writers and producers. Like anything else regarding Star Trek lore, it's the same as arguing why unicorns must be white.
But if you really want to find a solution that fits your head-canon, there are plenty of opinions out there that can justify why things are the way they are. After all, that's what Star Trek novel writers get paid to do. 90% of the novel is correcting plot holes and errors made in the TV/Movie series.
Maybe we'll get an MU FE series to explain it some day?
I'm actually hoping the whole DS9 arc gets a facelift along with a DS9 revamp. There are a bunch of redundant missions that take place on DS9 on sets that look nothing like DS9 sets and the social hub itself has lost value considerably as stores moved to reputation windows.
The downside is that it probably means remastering at least parts of The 2800, which would probably drive Cryptic nuts, but I think it's probably the weakest of the FE series.
In general, the Nimbus arc flows more like how I'd want a DS9 arc to flow.
And the missions on and around the station are the weakest links in that arc (both in Cardassian Front and The 2800) and need the most redoing whereas the other missions could probably work with a pass for story flow, progression, and placement in the arc.
And we're about there. The Romulan missions have some bugs but are generally quite good and the Klingon missions got a pass not long ago. ESD and Qo'noS have had facelifts and it seems to me like it's DS9's turn.
And while they're at it, rather than have everybody invade and conquer DS9 (it gets conquered back to back maybe five times), maybe a good part of a revamp would be to make Mirror Terok Nor a Nimbus adventure zone using shared assets with an improved DS9 map. Then you can get rid of any "Terrans Conquer DS9" plots (which feel redundant with the Undine and Jem'Hadar ALSO conquering DS9) and instead have us deal with the Terrans in the Terok Nor adventure zone.
Maybe similar to how Romulan Tal Shiar infiltration mission awards a Tal Shiar costume at the beginning, award an offduty or 2409 Terran uniform. (Which would be warranted if they actually worked up a mirrored Terran uniform. If you look, badges in Mirror, Mirror were mirrored (something that really should be better supported on uniforms) and in the Enterprise Mirror episodes, they wore medals/rank insignia on the opposite side as well. The 2409 look probably ought to be not just Jupiter unis but MIRRORED Jupiter unis probably with further changes. (Maybe harsher angles, bare arms for male officers, bare midriffs for women). (I'll add, I could see the Mirror unis on NPCs and as a C-Store pack while the freebie might be a Mirror First Contact uniform. Reversed pips. Some medals. Plenty of room to argue that it would be easier to get a dated uniform for undercover work.
I'll just add, it would probably be pretty convenient even using recycled voice work to get Regent Worf and Mirror Tuvok into a revamped mirror leveling arc, since we've seen the mirror versions of those two before.
Though if I were to look for an actor to pull, I'd look hard at Wesley since he would have come of age more in line with the return of the Empire and Wil Wheaton has said he'd be interested in doing STO if he's not Wesley. He's made a number of gags about an evil/tough/charismatic version of Wesley on Twitter. He seems to love playing villains (which he does almost exclusively now). He usually has a beard these days so you could even get a double bit of fan service by having Mirror Wesley look more like modern Wil Wheaton.
Maybe he could be a scene chewing evil scientist who's working R&D for the Terrans that would give us a perspective on how they did it.
Heck, maybe have him be the puppetmaster behind James O'Brien? Or maybe O'Brien's silent research partner who sets us up to kill O'Brien so Wesley can make a bid at being Emperor. ;-)
Comments
You referred to germany and that is a country. Check your own posts.
For the rest of it:
Cant put that nicely. Someone believing one could essentially replace military practicing (=Wargames) though online games (= simulations), like you insisted in the other thread, will probably believe BS like that too.
Every sane person does not need an explanation why this is nonsense.
Well... question is how far your suspension of disbelief goes, a lot of people will the same about Star Trek in general.
I'd say it should be consistent within itself, and the game MU representation is not....
I wouldn't say "reasonable" but understandably form the founders point of view who are distrusting by nature and essentially control freaks.
Lol. I'm the small minded, of course... :rolleyes:
You're welcome. Whatever...
It is very reasonable , the Federation would of been the first to call foul if say the Klingon Empire just started setting up colonies deep in Federation held space. The Federation and the Bajorians went poking around in another sovereign powers space despite being told not to.
"Reasonable" would be expelling the invaders and putting minefields, etc. around their own end of the wormhole to ensure that they do not come back, and destroying any Alpha/Beta quadrant ship that dares to pass through the wormhole without permission. It crossed the line into unreasonable when instead the Dominion decided that they had to occupy the invaders' homeworlds instead of just making sure that they can't encroach on Dominion territory any more.
Sure it can. Two whole quadrants means that many more resources, making exponential military growth that much simpler. Sure there would probably be a couple of wars with similar groups on the way, but that would only serve to blood whichever fleet survived.
Don't forget the Terran Empire almost certainly has no equivalent of the Prime Directive, so they can enslave almost uncountable numbers of people.
From the DS9 episode, "The Jem'Hadar":
The Dominion warns the Federation to basically butt out of the Gamma Quadrant, which is pretty much their territory, the seat of their empire. Naturally, the idea of a Starfleet officer being held indefinitely won't sit well, but the Federation doesn't even send diplomatic feelers to try to talk their way out of the problem, like the Federation has done in practically every other instance in Star Trek. Instead, the Federation sends a vessel of its most powerful type in service, the Galaxy-class USS Odyssey, into Dominion territory and use force in getting Sisko back.
So... a powerful vessel from a foreign power pops up in the middle of your territory, uninvited, after you've told those people to stay the hell out of your area, what do you think was supposed to happen?
The better part was Federation smugness leading them into an eventually disastrous war that would cost millions their lives. The same smugness the Federation had leading into their first encounter with the Borg.
The humans were slaves 40 years ago.
They have to overthrow the very well intact alliance, that means the entire Klingon empire and the entire cardassian union FROM NOTHING.
They had ds9 conquered, that's it.
Then they would have to rebuild, build colonies and rebuild cities.
Then they have to regain a basic level of education among the general population.
Then, even with the resources generally available, they would have to START to gather them. They would have to build refineries and find people who do that.
Then they would have to GATHER them for a while before they can even think of building a fleet.
Then they have to build yards to build their ships.
And Then they can START building their fleet. Which means ALL the above must have happened within 10 years.
And since they didn't have any experienced engineers in ship construction that would be hard enough.
Cruisers like the Galaxy need years to be build, even as ships of the line. The MU starts by 0, they have to develops prototypes, test them and only then they can start building them.
And all that under the assumption that ALL the ship plans were stolen because if they would have to DESIGN the ships first, add at least another 10-20 years.
No, it's not remotely possible to rebuild the Terran empire writhing the sto time frame.
I'd say reasonable would be a clear warning first.
But again, the founders essentially consider everything that does not follow their sense if order, and everything they can not control as a thread. Which is why they had to make their created to be loyal army drug addicts to ensure their loyalty. This is why they created all their important servant races.
For them the dominion war was the only option. The only reaction the the chaotic alpha quadrant...
The Defaint is more of a boat then anything. A hyped shutle. Look at the msd alone.
And the whole reason why they got Sisko in there in that episode is because they didn't get it to work.
Exactly.
I'd have liked a storyline that had us either crossover to aid the rebels or at least fight the K-C alliance from our side. It seems more like someone wanted to cheap out by just recoloring the models for Feds rather than continue the existing canon, as most of STO does.
Dark Mirror is a very good book, but the books aren't generally considered canon. Even if we do consider it canon, the Alt-Enterprise-D had a different look, not just a splash of different paint.
"...the secondary hull seemed larger; the nacelles were raked farther forward, and lower. The primary hull's curve was deeper and now had a frowning look about it. If ship's had expressions this one had it's eyes narrowed. It was a cruel look, and intimidating. Just visible, because of the rake of the primary hull were the characters ICC 1701-D ISS Ent- The rest was curved away out of sight." ~Dark Mirror pg 62
The STO MU still bothers me.
Thanks everyone for the (mostly) thoughtful replies!
Or... they could have simply stolen ships from the Alliance... and used Alliance technology... and used their shipyards, their refineries, their materials... The Terran resistance seemed particularly skilled at stealing things... And humans in general are good at taking others ideas and things and using them for themselves... XD
And like was stated earlier, once they got going, it is no longer a case of linear growth in power, it becomes an exponential curve. With each world they conquer, each military installation they defeat, they gain the resources AND infrastructure of those places. Therefore it's actually entirely conceivable that with good leadership, they could easily have done what they supposedly did in the suggested time-frame.
It may be plausible. It may not.
I think it is clearly insufficient story logic for the audience. Plenty of real things make for unsatisfying stories and even if there are realistic examples to explain the Terran resurgence, it's clearly been a story people have had a hard time stomaching since STO Beta.
I think most of us are glad to see that the MU is a Mirror again because the Terrans are cool villains but I don't think we're satisfied with how they got there. And regardless of what COULD be real, I think a story point like this needs to be emotionally satisfying to audiences and to players.
This isn't a real world. It's a game, yes. And that means the story should be emotionally stirring to increase investment in gameplay.
My character Tsin'xing
There is no logic or reason to a fictional mirror universe when it is dictated 100% by the whims of the writers and producers. Like anything else regarding Star Trek lore, it's the same as arguing why unicorns must be white.
But if you really want to find a solution that fits your head-canon, there are plenty of opinions out there that can justify why things are the way they are. After all, that's what Star Trek novel writers get paid to do. 90% of the novel is correcting plot holes and errors made in the TV/Movie series.
I'm actually hoping the whole DS9 arc gets a facelift along with a DS9 revamp. There are a bunch of redundant missions that take place on DS9 on sets that look nothing like DS9 sets and the social hub itself has lost value considerably as stores moved to reputation windows.
The downside is that it probably means remastering at least parts of The 2800, which would probably drive Cryptic nuts, but I think it's probably the weakest of the FE series.
In general, the Nimbus arc flows more like how I'd want a DS9 arc to flow.
And the missions on and around the station are the weakest links in that arc (both in Cardassian Front and The 2800) and need the most redoing whereas the other missions could probably work with a pass for story flow, progression, and placement in the arc.
And we're about there. The Romulan missions have some bugs but are generally quite good and the Klingon missions got a pass not long ago. ESD and Qo'noS have had facelifts and it seems to me like it's DS9's turn.
And while they're at it, rather than have everybody invade and conquer DS9 (it gets conquered back to back maybe five times), maybe a good part of a revamp would be to make Mirror Terok Nor a Nimbus adventure zone using shared assets with an improved DS9 map. Then you can get rid of any "Terrans Conquer DS9" plots (which feel redundant with the Undine and Jem'Hadar ALSO conquering DS9) and instead have us deal with the Terrans in the Terok Nor adventure zone.
Maybe similar to how Romulan Tal Shiar infiltration mission awards a Tal Shiar costume at the beginning, award an offduty or 2409 Terran uniform. (Which would be warranted if they actually worked up a mirrored Terran uniform. If you look, badges in Mirror, Mirror were mirrored (something that really should be better supported on uniforms) and in the Enterprise Mirror episodes, they wore medals/rank insignia on the opposite side as well. The 2409 look probably ought to be not just Jupiter unis but MIRRORED Jupiter unis probably with further changes. (Maybe harsher angles, bare arms for male officers, bare midriffs for women). (I'll add, I could see the Mirror unis on NPCs and as a C-Store pack while the freebie might be a Mirror First Contact uniform. Reversed pips. Some medals. Plenty of room to argue that it would be easier to get a dated uniform for undercover work.
Though if I were to look for an actor to pull, I'd look hard at Wesley since he would have come of age more in line with the return of the Empire and Wil Wheaton has said he'd be interested in doing STO if he's not Wesley. He's made a number of gags about an evil/tough/charismatic version of Wesley on Twitter. He seems to love playing villains (which he does almost exclusively now). He usually has a beard these days so you could even get a double bit of fan service by having Mirror Wesley look more like modern Wil Wheaton.
Maybe he could be a scene chewing evil scientist who's working R&D for the Terrans that would give us a perspective on how they did it.
Heck, maybe have him be the puppetmaster behind James O'Brien? Or maybe O'Brien's silent research partner who sets us up to kill O'Brien so Wesley can make a bid at being Emperor. ;-)