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A simple way to make engineers and tanks useful
memartha
Member Posts: 23 Arc User
I dont know how simple it would be im not a programmer or dev. They should make extend shields work like the guard ability in swtor. It can still give the resist and a small heal but the extender would take a certain percentage of the damage from the person being extended. Remove the cooldown to were it could be passed around freely. I think this one simple change could add alot of dynamics to this game. Anyone who played tank in early swtor im sure would agree it was alot of fun. This would not only be good for engineers but i think for the whole game.
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Engineers can't cast Extend Shields.
Engineering BOFFs on ships with the available BOFF slots can cast Extend Shields.
Could be a Tac or a Sci that's flying the ship with ExS on it.
The vast majority of players in the game lack the skill not to kill themselves given the nature of debuffs and damage in this game compared to other games.
Highly skilled Tac players could abuse/exploit such a system to give themselves GDF in a more controlled scenario.
There are no tanks in PvP. A ship might have "tank", but it better be doing damage or healing - cause there are no tanks in PvP. Well, there shouldn't be. We're humans, we're not NPCs. We shouldn't be sitting there mindlessly beating on the meatshield while ignoring the Heals and DPS. We should be able to perceive actual threats and eliminate them. Yes, the "tank" will be the last man standing...cause the "tank" will be the last one attacked.
And well, finally and frankly...there's far too much magical healing-like TRIBBLE in the game as is...it's Star Trek Online, it's not EverLord of the RingsWorld of RiftCraftQuest Online.
They're not single player mechanics. They're adulterated PnP mechanics. Tanking existed in PnP because of collision. Collision is far too resource intensive for MMOs, so they went with the goofy tanking seen with their implementation of the Trinity system: artificial taunts out the wahzoo and the most mindless NPCs possible. It's painfully laughable to think about some NPC that's acquired vast power and wealth, amassed armies, and is supposed to be a threat to the known world...being too stupid to realize that as it continues to beat on the meatshield, that there's folks healing the meatshield as well as other folks that are actually killing the NPC. It's painfully laughable...meh.
In STO, there's pseudo collision. Ships can collide, but there's only damage from one if it's using ramming speed. Some torps have collision, but most don't. Energy weapons fire straight through one ship to hit a ship on the other side.
Even if they were to implement collision, with it being a 3D environment (even with limited 3D movement) - there's still far too much movement for it to be effective.
Besides, it's not like there's any Trinity content in the game anyway - there's nothing requiring a tank in the game at all.
The thread said engineers and tanks not that engineers were tanks. As a tac you would be sacrificing something for survivability and or dps i dont think it would benefit a tac that much as long as the amount of damage absorbed and the speed of the damage was enough to make it useless on a ship without hi hull heavy resist and some healing and in a tac cruiser or escort to get that you would have to sacrifice either survivability or dps then the occasional gdf would gain you. I mean i still have no problem getting low enough to use gdf so why would i build my ship around getting a gdf on demand every 4 minutes when the rest of the time your carrying a useless ability or 2 on your ship. So yeah some might use it for that reason but it wouldnt be game breaking. Id argue it would be stupid.I think a major problem with this game pve and pvp is that there is no use for a tank. And about the magical healing in the game its already there this wouldnt add any healing into the game at all. As for beating on a meat shield in swtor i never beat on the meat shield there were multiple strategies of target switching and what targets to dps and when. There would still be counters maybe reduce the distance back to 5km. And very rarely did i see a tank in swtor able to keep guard up 100 % of the time without a great team and teamwork. You are taking the damage it doesnt just disappear. What if they made extends an engineer captain ability and got rid of nadion inversion the most selfish and by far useless captain ability.
Why?
There's no use for the fake aggro Tank and no way to implement the positional tank...
...but there's still "tank" in how one builds - survivability, so one can continue to mete out damage or continue to toss out heals.
If folks want people to shoot at them, they can take steps to give folks more incentive to shoot at them. Oddly enough, actual "taunts" in chat tend to work wonders...people get ticked off, stop thinking clearly, and play the role of the mindless NPC very well.
The Trinity in MMOs is a bad system...imho.
edit: Yes, you'll usually see skollulfr and myself arguing over some details in regard to the Trinity - but if you scrape those particulars to the side, neither of us is fond of the MMO Trinity in the least...
...did you read about the stuff Hawk mentioned in the Team thread? Did you picture that with a Sci Ody?
I do believe that extend shields should split damage between the caster and the target instead of just giving resistance though. Transfer shields giving a portion of the caster's total shields to the target sounds pretty good too.
Yep, I've always had the name issue with those two - wishing they'd function more like the name.
Its not about fake aggro or shoot me shoot me. Its about options i can mitigate damage through resists on another player. I can heal you and give you back hit points. So why not give us the option to absorb damage also. Its just another option some variety. This game is boring and needs more variety and options with control all but dead in this game except with hi level premades spamming nukes and 3 stacks of every control ability available hoping one hits for long enough to get the kill.
The only option i see is heavy sci spam boring heavy heals boring or vaper looks fun but im sure it gets old. 3This would make peoples selfish builds less selfish you said it yourself there is no use for a tank in this game mainly because there is no benefit to the team. Well then why do people still make "tanks" its because they love it. Some of them played another MMO and played tanks and loved it they loved it so much they still want to play tank in this game even know they arent needed. So give those players what they want. Its not all about me me me in this game other people have fun with other styles then vape heal vape heal. I argue that this would have very little negative effect on most peoples current play style. Whats the difference if i absorb damage from you or just heal you?
Thats exactly what i am saying a big problem is heal heal heal with no sacrifice causing the need for vapers. Something like this would reduce the ammount of healing if you lose something when you cast that heal. You wouldnt be creating hp out of thin air like you do now. You would be transferring hit points to another ship at a loss to your own. Im not a math genius like some but to me that equals less healing. I think pressure dps would be alot more useful also. If your transferring your hit points to another player or absorbing their damage it would benefit you to have a build with max hp A.K.A. a tank. Im not a huge fan of taunts but i think this is a little different from the classic taunt were if someone doesnt shoot you they get a damage debuff. And your tank build would be more beneficial to the team.
This is still Star Trek Online...no, I'm not one of those hardcore Canon folks (I tend to get into arguments with them, so I try not to reply to them). But what explanation would be offered for the ability outside of "Magic" to do it? And no, saying there's already "Magic" in the game doesn't excuse adding more...
You see an old lady fall crossing the street...do you help her up or do you kick her a few times? Why not try to help STO back up rather than kicking it a few times?
There's a difference between saying there is no need to play a tank and saying there is no means to play a tank. You can play a tank as long as the rest of the group is onboard with that. Otherwise they'll just obliterate everything around you. If everybody gears down, you can break out the Trinity - have the Tank, Heals, and DPS...you can go at it. If folks are trying to hit up the queues to be a tank, that's on them...they should try to find a Trinity Fleet that runs things that way.
But let's look at the mechanics for such a thing - in a sense, you'd basically be looking at something along the lines of FBP that you could drop out on a target where instead of it pulsing the damage back at the target, it would pulse the damage to you - where you'd take the damage instead. Something like that, right? It kind of matters where the buff exists. Cause if it's on you, then they can just SNB you and kill the target. Cause if it's on the target, they can just SNB you to clear any resists you have and kill you.
So it basically gets in to the question of what would it actually add? If you yourself have said...
...then why add it?
Then consider things like ExS and RSP...if you've got that out on somebody, is it going to affect your resists/ability to heal? Or is it just to be a martyr for a second so you die instead of somebody else dying? Don't get me wrong, I've done that in a bunch of games - it can be fun. If I'm on Deeps and the Healer's about to be toasted, I know the Healer is far more important to the team than I am - so I'll do what I can to save the Healer...even if it means I go down. Cause if the Healer goes down, it could mean quite a few folks go down.
But again, how are you going to explain the damage going from Target A to Target B in the Star Trek setting? What kind of mechanics would be involved regarding any lockouts or debuffs? And what does it have to do with Engineers?
In that context letting engineers cast an *Aceton absorption field* seems some what sane, compared to a lot of other TRIBBLE.
Any way, why can't space engineers behave more like ground ones? Barrier shields or support structures, mini star bases that spam photon torpedo spread 3.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Space Engineers have access to the same kits all other Captains have in space.
Cover shields, drone fabrication and orbital strikes are inaite player abilities.
A federation DPS Avenger
A KDF DPS Mogh
A Federation Dedicated healer Recluse
A Federation DSD drain concept ship with tbr lulz
There is zero wrong with engineer. In fact id dare say that DSD im concepting will probably be stronger on an engy than a sci, due to the innate hull weakness of the DSD.
Will it be as valuable as sciencey magic captain skills? Nope. But it will be able to do everything a science/science ship can do powers wise, and thats the point, all the while surviving far longer than a science/science ever would. O_o
But its still in alpha testing. The other three ships are completed builds and are extremely effective in their chosen roles.
Instead of trying to get spoonfed another hotfix for easy mode, think outside of the box and make your Engineer shine. Victoria (my Avengineer) is the highest DPS engineer PvP ship in the entire game, and hangs up there with most of the tacs as well. (according to hilbert's leaderboard http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/?timeframe=monthly&captaintype=eng&top10=1& ). Feel free to notice that the number 10 overall DPSer in the sample if you include tacs is only a couple hundred points higher than mine. This means my Avenger with an engineer captain is almost in the top 10 DPS of ALL reported PvPers for the entire last month.
Just wanted to point that out. Now go make a pressure damage ship.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
It's along the lines, imho, of that if you're dead - you can't DPS. So while the Eng might do less DPS than the Tac when both are alive...if the Tac's dead, well - the Eng's going to pass the Tac.
Kind of like back with the 3x BO. An Eng with Grace could trigger Miracle on the first BO, the heal would happen with the second BO, they could trigger another Miracle which would happen with the third BO...they could survive it and work on killing the attacker. The Tac and the Sci would be looking at the respawn button.
Course, that was back before damage reached the point it has - and - have to figure Cryptic knew what they were going to be adding and that's why they made the stacking changes. Could you imagine if they hadn't? Egads...
Show me yours and I'll show you mine.;)
The engineer fawboat is actually a vaper's nightmare in most cases. The ship that cant be vaped easily that also destroys their hull so fast they have to abort their run every time.
It takes a really good vaper (and there arent many if im honest) to kill my engy solo.
Make no mistake, that ship can down a facing and drop a player a heck of a lot faster than some of these smug naysayers in here seem to think. I broadside and hit my EPTW+DEM+weapons battery and things die.
People just need to learn to do damage without relying on APA and sci debuffs. Too many people will sit and be practically useless waiting on cooldowns when I dont have to wait, I just go go go go go go and keep the hammer on nearly constantly. The trick is to not always FAW, keep your damage focused on the one that needs dying.
And they do die. The DPS beats their HPS, its just math. Only a dedicated healer or someone getting extended is immune to this effect (and if someone is crosshealing to save you from me, guess what just happened? they just burned a heal which is exactly what I am trying to make them do). No ship otherwise can self heal enough to overcome the raw pressure. You will die, its just a matter of when. So run around, mash buttons, hit evasive and zip in circles up and down, I dont care, I just keep them happy red beams of doom on you... and watch your hull tick down... down... down.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Rylana and Victoria are in his sig...not sure if there's any info in the Description/Notes there though.
Also just for the record, tanks are useful in PvP. A big slow cruiser makes an easy target. So while an escort is trying to take down a tank, they wont be moving as much and another escort will have a nice opening to take them out.
Anyone want to give me a Temporal Heavy Dreadnought pack? I'll be your friend
The Escortjock should realize that perhaps the Cruiser is bait (if the Cruiser is not killing the guy in the Escort) and be keeping an eye out for any additional attackers - noticing that those attacks coming from behind are obviously not coming from the Cruiser...that sort of thing.
Yay, spacebar FTW!
Make no mistake, people know how well FAW works, but it's just sooo boring to be playing with it. You just mash your spacebar and fly around in circles and it doesn't really matter how good you are doing that, it's just stupid. If everybody would do that, then the one who could mash their spacebar the fastest would win. Eng or not wouldn't really matter either.
exactly, they SHOULD notice, but sometimes a big cruiser is just too tempting a target. Also most PvP escorts dont think very much. They dont even have a plan C. They have Plan A, for Attack. Plan B is if they get attacked they eject from the battle, but then have no plan if someone is able to follow them. And with how stupidly high peoples DPS are getting, it just takes a few seconds of misplaced concentration to get blown up. So if somehow you can survive the stupid DPS in PvP, tanking is very useful because most escorts dont think about their own survival, just about blowing up other people.
Anyone want to give me a Temporal Heavy Dreadnought pack? I'll be your friend
*is inspired*
Hurrah!
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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