I don't recall much if any complaints about elachi weapons not being effective enough, it shouldn't be changed. Stop making changes nobody is asking for and focus on bugs that have existed for a long time please.
I do agree with this. I see the weapons being used all the time in PvP and no one complained about them. Now phasers or tetryons, those need fixing.
So DHC are the bomb and turrets are worthless as far as Elachi bling goes.
I'd be interested in seeing how Elachi DHCs with multiple CrtD mods work out :eek: especially on a Romulan with lots of CrtH already
And while we're on the subject of improving underpowered sets can we have the Reman and Romulan Prototype sets looked at? Especially the shields that come with no resists at all and the deflectors and their 'interesting' skill bonses? With the change to the Solanae set bonus these sets which require weeks of rep grinding and dilithium are now way behind free gear from replaying the featured episode...
I'm guessing you changed the ground elachi weapon proc too? MEH if you did.....
True, there is also that, it makes stacking the Elachi weapon very overpowered.
(Rest of the post directed at devs) Imagine 5x Elachi Pistol while under Rally Cry IV. The only class that could tank something like that would be a medic. Engineers will burn and Tactical officers will suffer majorly. If the shield bypass proc has no cooldown, then it needs to reduce the bypassing damage by 50% and lose the damage resistance decrease. The proc on Ground is 5%, which means 1 in every 20 shots will land the proc. Elachi Pistols fire once every half second, which means there will be a proc on average once every 10 seconds per player. That made the weapon useful on one or two people on a team, but it was partially balanced by that lockout period. A team of 5 using this weapon has a 22.6% chance of getting a proc every second. It takes between 3-11 of these procs to kill a target unbuffed. A team of five is going to meet that quota very quickly.
Then factor in the weapon secondary attacks. Many people in the Ground PvP community call these guns the "noob rifle" and the "noob pistol", The devs may or may not be aware, but there is a very good chance for a oneshot if the secondary attack procs while the player is using damage buffs. Most players don't use the weapon in a team setting because of the lockout period. It brought a semblance of balance to a potentially overpowered weapon proc.
In our internal parsing, the removal of this lockout period affected most ships by a very small margin. We're talking DPS improvements of in the neighborhood of 2% tops. It had an obviously larger impact on ships that were using more of these weapons, as their opportunity to land the proc is increased by the number of these weapons they are firing within that previous lockout period. And these are also the ships were were attempting to address -- before this change, you were actually losing effectiveness by slotting multiple Elachi weapons, instead of using different weapons with Procs that did not share a lockout period.
Additionally, it's not accurate to compare the lockout period of an instant damage-amplifying effect like the Elachi proc, with a duration-based CC ability like a Phaser Proc.
I'm guessing that test was against something like a Tactical Cube. Have you tested this weapon in a PvP team setting against science vessels? Even now, the proc is devastating to the Science Vessel's low hull. You have Romulans putting out 6,000 damage per shot critical hits with 270 degree arc beam arrays (oh I wish that were an exaggeration, but it isn't). You are giving players a weapon capable of killing 38,000 hull science vessels in as little as seven beam array shots. This change is insane, damage is already out of control, and this only makes it that much worse to be flying anything without a cloaking device.
I'm guessing that test was against something like a Tactical Cube. Have you tested this weapon in a PvP team setting against science vessels? Even now, the proc is devastating to the Science Vessel's low hull. You have Romulans putting out 6,000 damage per shot critical hits with 270 degree arc beam arrays (oh I wish that were an exaggeration, but it isn't). You are giving players a weapon capable of killing 38,000 hull science vessels in as little as seven beam array shots. This change is insane, damage is already out of control, and this only makes it that much worse to be flying anything without a cloaking device.
I'd be concerned but the chances of a 2.5% chance proc landing 7 times in a row is astronomical, and with the changes that made it possible to chain engineering team every 15 teams that's not going to happen except to the most inattentive (and unlucky) pilot.
I'd be concerned but the chances of a 2.5% chance proc landing 7 times in a row is astronomical, and with the changes that made it possible to chain engineering team every 15 teams that's not going to happen except to the most inattentive (and unlucky) pilot.
The chance per cycle increased well beyond before. This is a really bad change. The original maximum per minute was about 12 regardless of if you had one or if you had 8. Now the chance balloons to around 100 depending on loadout. Yes the odds are really low to get 7 directly in a row. But it can happen. And you are most assuredly in a one minute span with no lockouts going to hit that number.
The team one I wanted to wait and see, and it's really not horrible. This I can tell already their math is off and they included shield damage in the parses. No way you did a run and got only 2% extra on hull when the things freaking do a 50% debuff when they proc. At minimum that would get you closer to 5%. It'd also take the time to kill down intensely since the damage is piercing the shield and you have vastly more chances to proc.
Again you went from a maximum of 1 every time to a maximum of 8 if you so chose...
Then Bortius is gonna say the Phaser lockout is fine when that is essentially the same exact thing but the lockout was 8s, it wasn't really easily boost-able, and subsystem repair effected it.
I'd be concerned but the chances of a 2.5% chance proc landing 7 times in a row is astronomical, and with the changes that made it possible to chain engineering team every 15 teams that's not going to happen except to the most inattentive (and unlucky) pilot.
A team of 5 using the 8x Elachi Weapon has a 69.1745% chance per fire cycle to land at least one Elachi proc. There is a 0.4375% chance per fire cycle of getting at 7 procs, assuming the Elachi weapon only procs once per weapon per fire cycle. Just under one half of a percentage isn't astronomical when you consider the fact that these weapons will be firing off constantly. Engineering Team and Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field both have 15 second minimum coolowns. Within those 15 seconds, there is approximately a 6.5% chance that enough procs will land to kill the player through any amount of shields. To be honest, that is insanely high and the reason they implemented the 5 second proc lockout period. If this proc loses shield bypass lockout, then bypassing damage needs to be cut in half and the "ignores 50% of resistances" needs to be removed.
A team of 5 using the 8x Elachi Weapon has a 69.1745% chance per fire cycle to land at least one Elachi proc. There is a 0.4375% chance per fire cycle of getting at 7 procs, assuming the Elachi weapon only procs once per weapon per fire cycle. Just under one half of a percentage isn't astronomical when you consider the fact that these weapons will be firing off constantly. Engineering Team and Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field both have 15 second minimum coolowns. Within those 15 seconds, there is approximately a 6.5% chance that enough procs will land to kill the player through any amount of shields. To be honest, that is insanely high and the reason they implemented the 5 second proc lockout period. If this proc loses shield bypass lockout, then bypassing damage needs to be cut in half and the "ignores 50% of resistances" needs to be removed.
Well the point of that post was to debunk the misconception that a single broadsider with 8x Elachi beams will bulldoze through science ships, which I'd say was successful if a team of five has only a one in twenty chance of doing it. Besides, when 5 are focus firing on 1 and the rest of the team isn't doing anything, the 1 is going to lose no matter what type of weapon the 5 are using. Frankly, I would agree with you this change to the Elachi weapons is OP before the teams were decoupled, but now that everyone automatically gets more survivability imo one kind of power creep balances out the other.
Well the point of that post was to debunk the misconception that a single broadsider with 8x Elachi beams will bulldoze through science ships, which I'd say was successful if a team of five has only a one in twenty chance of doing it.
Alright, how about you go find a Scimitar piliot, hop in a fleet science vessel, and let them blast you with Elachi cannons to see how many seconds it takes for them to kill you.
Well the point of that post was to debunk the Besides, when 5 are focus firing on 1 and the rest of the team isn't doing anything, the 1 is going to lose no matter what type of weapon the 5 are using.
There is two abilities called Beam Fire at Will and Cannon Scatter Volley that will hit multiple targets.
Frankly, I would agree with you this change to the Elachi weapons is OP before the teams were decoupled, but now that everyone automatically gets more survivability imo one kind of power creep balances out the other.
That "power creep" benifitted non-auxiliary based healing builds more than any other setup. By non-auxiliary based healing I mean Auxiliary to Battery based builds...as in the damage dealers capable of going for 40,000 damage/second in a very wide arc. You should jump in a 3v3 vs three Aux2bat + BFAW Scimitars. You will be singing a different tune after that match. Add on the fact that Science Team and Engineering Team are both used primarily to cleanse Science based debuffs and you begin to see the problem with the decoupling. The team decoupling hurt science vessels and now the elachi proc further diminishes the ability to keep a science vessel in one piece.
Just a random vaguely related question (after looking at all the weapon procs to figure out why your boosting one of the best weapons in the game)...
Why do quad cannons use engine power as well as weapons power? What advantages beyond looking cool, do they have that requires a relatively painful con...
Re the soleane set, a borg 2 piece competitor at last? The cynical side of me knows you're doing it only to boost flagging dyson destroyer sales, but eh oh...
Yes, the lockout period has been removed from the ground Proc as well.
Thank you for the clarification, borticus. I have another question. What does it mean exactly to ignore 50% of the target's damage resistance? I can think of the following possibilities:
(a) 50 is subtracted from target's disruptor resistance rating for the first shot.
(b) The target's disruptor resistance rating is cut in half for the first shot.
(c) 50% is subtracted from the target's disruptor resistance percentage for the first shot.
(d) The target's disruptor resistance percentage is cut in half for the first shot.
Also, what happens if the target's disruptor resistance is already negative from debuffs?
Why no known issue for kdf costume slots that are still buged for most players. Starting to think its a other bug that ur adding to ur ignore list e,g freighter captain out side ESD
[*]Removed the 5 second immunity associated with Elachi Disruptor procs.
These weapons no longer cause a lockout period, and can proc as often as other weapons.
[/LIST]
._________."
Seriously people, you're buffing one of the best energy weapon types in PvP? Their proc is already friggin scary, have a team of tacs using those and you'll get facemelted in no time.
It's like removing Phaser subsystem offline immunity. Lemme disable their subsystem to death removing their lockout! I'd love to continuously disable shields. Elachi do pretty much the same thing, get straight to the hull, now as much as they want.
I join the protest against removal of Elachi weapon proc immunity. The proc is awful already. (Elachi Dual Beam Bank + Shield ignore doffs + Beam Overload 3) Roll it back pls.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
Hey Borticus, do you even play this game? Perhaps you could actually take a week and try playing PvP on the holodeck. That would really give you a new insight in how bad you have managed to TRIBBLE everything up.
I'd say removing the lockout is right, and it shouldn't end just with those lockbox weapons, also Phaser should have their lockout removed. They are actually much more in need of such a buff than the Elachi weapons. That said, the magnitude of those procs should also get a balance pass, especially the elachi proc needs to be brought in line with the other procs.
In our internal parsing, the removal of this lockout period affected most ships by a very small margin. We're talking DPS improvements of in the neighborhood of 2% tops. It had an obviously larger impact on ships that were using more of these weapons, as their opportunity to land the proc is increased by the number of these weapons they are firing within that previous lockout period. And these are also the ships were were attempting to address -- before this change, you were actually losing effectiveness by slotting multiple Elachi weapons, instead of using different weapons with Procs that did not share a lockout period.
Additionally, it's not accurate to compare the lockout period of an instant damage-amplifying effect like the Elachi proc, with a duration-based CC ability like a Phaser Proc.
If it makes so little difference then why bother changing it ?
This is stupid and I think you know it... if you are not capable of doing simple probability math. Ok I'm going to stop before I'm mean more then I have a right to be.
Do what ever you wish with your game... you guys are making it far far easier to throw my money at anet over you folks. Thanks for the reply.
If it makes so little difference then why bother changing it ?
This is stupid and I think you know it... if you are not capable of doing simple probability math. Ok I'm going to stop before I'm mean more then I have a right to be.
Do what ever you wish with your game... you guys are making it far far easier to throw my money at anet over you folks. Thanks for the reply.
Now now, be nice to Bort, he was just saying why they went away and make the change. I'm actually glad he chimed in because it has been a while since I've seen his posts. Yes, I'm pretty sure the 2% damage change lowballs the in game effect, but instead of name calling just provide more data. Heck, run one of those A2B builds in Holodeck vs Tribble using Elachi weapons and see if it's really just 2%.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Will the Piercing Tetryon weapons recieve a buff to compensate for the buff that the Elachi weapons recieved? Before, the Piercing Tetryons seemed to be balanced out against the Elachi:
Piercing Tetryons - 2.5% chance to ignore 50% of target's shields, no lockout.
Elachi - 2.5% chance to ignore 100% shields and 50% damage resistance, 5 second lockout.
Now the Elachi have the one thing that the Piercing Tetryon had that made them unique, so now these Tetryon weaponry are at a disadvantage because of lower shield bypass and no damage resistance bypass.
It's nice the Solanae 3 piece set is being boosted, but the Solanae Advanced Technology 3 piece set bonus does not work at all. The cool-down stays at 3 minutes instead of 2 for all of the consoles. I think it should be a priority to fix the 10000 zen set?
Will the Piercing Tetryon weapons recieve a buff to compensate for the buff that the Elachi weapons recieved? Before, the Piercing Tetryons seemed to be balanced out against the Elachi:
Piercing Tetryons - 2.5% chance to ignore 50% of target's shields, no lockout.
Elachi - 2.5% chance to ignore 100% shields and 50% damage resistance, 5 second lockout.
Now the Elachi have the one thing that the Piercing Tetryon had that made them unique, so now these Tetryon weaponry are at a disadvantage because of lower shield bypass and no damage resistance bypass.
Not that I am defending them but you are comparing a free mission reward to a lockbox weapon. Perhaps with that in mind its easy to see why they would buff the elach... a free mission reward should be no where close to a lockbox grade weapon.
Not that I am defending them but you are comparing a free mission reward to a lockbox weapon. Perhaps with that in mind its easy to see why they would buff the elach... a free mission reward should be no where close to a lockbox grade weapon.
This is true, and I don't believe that the weapons as a whole should be on par with one another. (For one thing, Elachi weapons come with a complete set of modifiers and are up to MK XII purple, while Piecing Tetryon are only up to MK XI Blue, no modifiers.) As a weapon, Elachi weapons are going to be better no matter what, as long as they're of a higher mark and rarity, this is more of asking for their procs to be evened out someway. A common MK I Phaser has the same proc as an Advanced Fleet MK XII Phaser, and yet one weapon is most definitely better than the other.
This change is akin to having a new weapon type be released with the same exact proc as say, disruptors, but instead of -10 damage resistance debuff, it gave -20. Without any sort of compensation for the improvement. Sure, you may find disruptor weapons that are better than certain instances of this new weapon, but it doesn't change the fact that it's proc is rather obviously less effective.
Comments
I do agree with this. I see the weapons being used all the time in PvP and no one complained about them. Now phasers or tetryons, those need fixing.
I'd be interested in seeing how Elachi DHCs with multiple CrtD mods work out :eek: especially on a Romulan with lots of CrtH already
And while we're on the subject of improving underpowered sets can we have the Reman and Romulan Prototype sets looked at? Especially the shields that come with no resists at all and the deflectors and their 'interesting' skill bonses? With the change to the Solanae set bonus these sets which require weeks of rep grinding and dilithium are now way behind free gear from replaying the featured episode...
Am I only one that have that problem for last 3 yrs. ?
Is my Klingon toon something special ?
What should I or we do about it ?
I AM PISSED OFF AFTER 3 YRS. I STILL CAN'T USE OR CHANGE OR DELETE OUTFIT IN 3 OF 5 OUTFIT SLOTS ON MY KLINGON TOON !
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Folks have said that since the beginning...Elachi Turrets are proof Cryptic has a sense of humor.
True, there is also that, it makes stacking the Elachi weapon very overpowered.
(Rest of the post directed at devs) Imagine 5x Elachi Pistol while under Rally Cry IV. The only class that could tank something like that would be a medic. Engineers will burn and Tactical officers will suffer majorly. If the shield bypass proc has no cooldown, then it needs to reduce the bypassing damage by 50% and lose the damage resistance decrease. The proc on Ground is 5%, which means 1 in every 20 shots will land the proc. Elachi Pistols fire once every half second, which means there will be a proc on average once every 10 seconds per player. That made the weapon useful on one or two people on a team, but it was partially balanced by that lockout period. A team of 5 using this weapon has a 22.6% chance of getting a proc every second. It takes between 3-11 of these procs to kill a target unbuffed. A team of five is going to meet that quota very quickly.
Then factor in the weapon secondary attacks. Many people in the Ground PvP community call these guns the "noob rifle" and the "noob pistol", The devs may or may not be aware, but there is a very good chance for a oneshot if the secondary attack procs while the player is using damage buffs. Most players don't use the weapon in a team setting because of the lockout period. It brought a semblance of balance to a potentially overpowered weapon proc.
I'm guessing that test was against something like a Tactical Cube. Have you tested this weapon in a PvP team setting against science vessels? Even now, the proc is devastating to the Science Vessel's low hull. You have Romulans putting out 6,000 damage per shot critical hits with 270 degree arc beam arrays (oh I wish that were an exaggeration, but it isn't). You are giving players a weapon capable of killing 38,000 hull science vessels in as little as seven beam array shots. This change is insane, damage is already out of control, and this only makes it that much worse to be flying anything without a cloaking device.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I'd be concerned but the chances of a 2.5% chance proc landing 7 times in a row is astronomical, and with the changes that made it possible to chain engineering team every 15 teams that's not going to happen except to the most inattentive (and unlucky) pilot.
The chance per cycle increased well beyond before. This is a really bad change. The original maximum per minute was about 12 regardless of if you had one or if you had 8. Now the chance balloons to around 100 depending on loadout. Yes the odds are really low to get 7 directly in a row. But it can happen. And you are most assuredly in a one minute span with no lockouts going to hit that number.
The team one I wanted to wait and see, and it's really not horrible. This I can tell already their math is off and they included shield damage in the parses. No way you did a run and got only 2% extra on hull when the things freaking do a 50% debuff when they proc. At minimum that would get you closer to 5%. It'd also take the time to kill down intensely since the damage is piercing the shield and you have vastly more chances to proc.
Again you went from a maximum of 1 every time to a maximum of 8 if you so chose...
Then Bortius is gonna say the Phaser lockout is fine when that is essentially the same exact thing but the lockout was 8s, it wasn't really easily boost-able, and subsystem repair effected it.
Personally I'd leave this one alone, and address phasers and tetryons like people have been asking
A team of 5 using the 8x Elachi Weapon has a 69.1745% chance per fire cycle to land at least one Elachi proc. There is a 0.4375% chance per fire cycle of getting at 7 procs, assuming the Elachi weapon only procs once per weapon per fire cycle. Just under one half of a percentage isn't astronomical when you consider the fact that these weapons will be firing off constantly. Engineering Team and Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field both have 15 second minimum coolowns. Within those 15 seconds, there is approximately a 6.5% chance that enough procs will land to kill the player through any amount of shields. To be honest, that is insanely high and the reason they implemented the 5 second proc lockout period. If this proc loses shield bypass lockout, then bypassing damage needs to be cut in half and the "ignores 50% of resistances" needs to be removed.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Well the point of that post was to debunk the misconception that a single broadsider with 8x Elachi beams will bulldoze through science ships, which I'd say was successful if a team of five has only a one in twenty chance of doing it. Besides, when 5 are focus firing on 1 and the rest of the team isn't doing anything, the 1 is going to lose no matter what type of weapon the 5 are using. Frankly, I would agree with you this change to the Elachi weapons is OP before the teams were decoupled, but now that everyone automatically gets more survivability imo one kind of power creep balances out the other.
There is two abilities called Beam Fire at Will and Cannon Scatter Volley that will hit multiple targets.
That "power creep" benifitted non-auxiliary based healing builds more than any other setup. By non-auxiliary based healing I mean Auxiliary to Battery based builds...as in the damage dealers capable of going for 40,000 damage/second in a very wide arc. You should jump in a 3v3 vs three Aux2bat + BFAW Scimitars. You will be singing a different tune after that match. Add on the fact that Science Team and Engineering Team are both used primarily to cleanse Science based debuffs and you begin to see the problem with the decoupling. The team decoupling hurt science vessels and now the elachi proc further diminishes the ability to keep a science vessel in one piece.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Why do quad cannons use engine power as well as weapons power? What advantages beyond looking cool, do they have that requires a relatively painful con...
Re the soleane set, a borg 2 piece competitor at last? The cynical side of me knows you're doing it only to boost flagging dyson destroyer sales, but eh oh...
Thank you for the clarification, borticus. I have another question. What does it mean exactly to ignore 50% of the target's damage resistance? I can think of the following possibilities:
(a) 50 is subtracted from target's disruptor resistance rating for the first shot.
(b) The target's disruptor resistance rating is cut in half for the first shot.
(c) 50% is subtracted from the target's disruptor resistance percentage for the first shot.
(d) The target's disruptor resistance percentage is cut in half for the first shot.
Also, what happens if the target's disruptor resistance is already negative from debuffs?
._________."
Seriously people, you're buffing one of the best energy weapon types in PvP? Their proc is already friggin scary, have a team of tacs using those and you'll get facemelted in no time.
It's like removing Phaser subsystem offline immunity. Lemme disable their subsystem to death removing their lockout! I'd love to continuously disable shields. Elachi do pretty much the same thing, get straight to the hull, now as much as they want.
I second the motion to work on tetryons.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
What wheres sales down ?
This is a dumb change.
If it makes so little difference then why bother changing it ?
This is stupid and I think you know it... if you are not capable of doing simple probability math. Ok I'm going to stop before I'm mean more then I have a right to be.
Do what ever you wish with your game... you guys are making it far far easier to throw my money at anet over you folks. Thanks for the reply.
Now now, be nice to Bort, he was just saying why they went away and make the change. I'm actually glad he chimed in because it has been a while since I've seen his posts. Yes, I'm pretty sure the 2% damage change lowballs the in game effect, but instead of name calling just provide more data. Heck, run one of those A2B builds in Holodeck vs Tribble using Elachi weapons and see if it's really just 2%.
Aww. Why couldn't that be the one bug you never bother fixing?
Oh well. Plenty of other insane s*** on the ground to waste Borg with. Like super-buffed engineers.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Piercing Tetryons - 2.5% chance to ignore 50% of target's shields, no lockout.
Elachi - 2.5% chance to ignore 100% shields and 50% damage resistance, 5 second lockout.
Now the Elachi have the one thing that the Piercing Tetryon had that made them unique, so now these Tetryon weaponry are at a disadvantage because of lower shield bypass and no damage resistance bypass.
Not that I am defending them but you are comparing a free mission reward to a lockbox weapon. Perhaps with that in mind its easy to see why they would buff the elach... a free mission reward should be no where close to a lockbox grade weapon.
This is true, and I don't believe that the weapons as a whole should be on par with one another. (For one thing, Elachi weapons come with a complete set of modifiers and are up to MK XII purple, while Piecing Tetryon are only up to MK XI Blue, no modifiers.) As a weapon, Elachi weapons are going to be better no matter what, as long as they're of a higher mark and rarity, this is more of asking for their procs to be evened out someway. A common MK I Phaser has the same proc as an Advanced Fleet MK XII Phaser, and yet one weapon is most definitely better than the other.
This change is akin to having a new weapon type be released with the same exact proc as say, disruptors, but instead of -10 damage resistance debuff, it gave -20. Without any sort of compensation for the improvement. Sure, you may find disruptor weapons that are better than certain instances of this new weapon, but it doesn't change the fact that it's proc is rather obviously less effective.