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ALL science vessels and cruisers should have minimum Lt commander tac station
kitsunesnout
Member Posts: 1,210 Arc User
Let's face it, from a brief look at the storm about the Galaxy not having tactical prowess it should (At least that's what I came to understand a lot of it was about), I can tell this is but merely the tip of the iceberg that needs to be debated (maybe it has been and I missed it) and why I make this thread. And that is just a mere Lt tactical station doesn't cut it on any ships anymore and is obsolete, especially science vessels like the Intrepid, and a primary reason why the Vesta can outclass any other science vessel period even if it had no hangar since science can be done better on a science heavy vessel with more tactical leaning in the right hands (Such as the Elachi escort, serves as a nearly a perfect science vessel with teeth! Or even the 5 sci console Scimitar, whatever it's variant name was).
Cruisers and especially science vessels are forced far too hard into being part of a pointless trinity that didn't exist in Star Trek when their powers alone without proper tactical station powers backing them up makes them largely moot, which is what really matters in this game. It feels like a waste of time to pilot anything other than an escort, science-tactical hybrid destroyers, or battlecruisers.
No matter what happens in this game or what gets tweaked, engineering, and science powers especially, are a supplement for damage dealing, not a replacement. Now it would be nice if they would give more muscle to those powers, but I don't see it ever happening, just look at how scared to death they were of allowing gravity well to do even a tiny bit of damage.
Now some could get into the debate of captain powers here, but still doesn't change the fact that the ships alone regardless are lacking teeth they ought to have compared to others and can be flown by any class of captain.
Cruisers and especially science vessels are forced far too hard into being part of a pointless trinity that didn't exist in Star Trek when their powers alone without proper tactical station powers backing them up makes them largely moot, which is what really matters in this game. It feels like a waste of time to pilot anything other than an escort, science-tactical hybrid destroyers, or battlecruisers.
No matter what happens in this game or what gets tweaked, engineering, and science powers especially, are a supplement for damage dealing, not a replacement. Now it would be nice if they would give more muscle to those powers, but I don't see it ever happening, just look at how scared to death they were of allowing gravity well to do even a tiny bit of damage.
Now some could get into the debate of captain powers here, but still doesn't change the fact that the ships alone regardless are lacking teeth they ought to have compared to others and can be flown by any class of captain.
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Hrmmm, I wouldn't have humbly disagreed. I would have strongly disagreed.
For the content that exists in the game, even Lt Tac is overkill.
Just because somebody wants to do 60s or less ISE runs or because they want to PvP - doesn't change that even Lt Tac is overkill for the content in the game.
So yeah, I would have gone with strong disagreed.
We need NPCs that actually require science vessels doing their job, and buffed up sci skills. The Voth were a good start, but it's still not enough.
Lt Tac
Negh'Var Heavy
Mirror Vor'cha Retro
Lt Tac (En Uni)
Fleet Negh'Var Heavy
Lt/En Tac
Mirror Negh'Var Heavy
Vor'cha Retro
Kamarag Retro
Fleet Kamarag Retro
K't'inga Retro
Fleet K't'inga Retro
Lt Tac (LCdr Uni)
Bortas
Bortasqu' Command
Bortasqu' Tactical
Bortasqu' War
Tal Shiar Adapated
LCdr Tac
Mogh
Fleet Mogh
Fleet Tor'Kaht
Avenger
Fleet Avenger
Ferengi D'Kora Marauder
Elachi Monbosh
Hirogen Apex Heavy
That's 9 without a LCdr Tac, 8 with a LCdr Tac, and 5 that can use a LCdr Uni as a LCdr Tac.
Of the 8 with a LCdr Tac, you've got the Mogh/Avenger/Fleet Mogh/Fleet Avenger that account for 4 of them (2 factional copies of a boat and 2 Fleet versions of that boat). For the 5 that use the Uni, 4 of them are variants of the same boat.
Yeah...Battle Cruisers...it's not really about the LCdr Tac.
It's kind of trip...cause...
LCdr Tac
Vo'Quv Carrier
Mirror Vo'Quv Carrier
Fleet Vo'Quv Carrier
LCdr/Lt Tac
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier
Fleet Kar'Fi Battle Carrier
Cmdr/Lt Tac
Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier
En Tac (Cmdr Uni)
Recluse Carrier
Lt Tac (En Uni)
Obelisk Carrier
Lt Tac (Lt/En Uni)
Advanced Obelisk Carrier
Lt Tac
Caitian Atrox Carrier
Fleet Caitian Atrox Carrier
Admittedly there are variants, but 7 of the 12 full Carriers in the game have or can do LCdr or higher Tac. Only 2 of 12 are only capable of Lt Tac. The Carriers have a higher percentage of higher Tac than the Battle Cruisers...
In the end, it's not really a case of arguing that the content in STO doesn't favor Tac efficiency - everybody knows that everything's pretty much a DPS race. It's just a case that stuff literally can be done by almost anything, so if some wants to fly something less efficient in the eyes of somebody else that can still do well above the min required to get the content done...should they be told they can't? That's effectively what would be happening in forcing Sci/Cruiser to have LCdr Tac at min.
It kind of comes off as wanting to fly Escorts that look like Cruisers or Science Vessels...at which point it gets into why even have anything other than Escorts/Destroyers/Warships/Raptors/Raiders/etc...
...unfortunately, even though it's partially a content issue - if they added content that favored something other than DPS; would it matter? Folks most likely wouldn't be able to do it in under 2 minutes - so as long as that under 2 minute content exists...everything else is going to be broken. So perhaps if they addressed that, we might see other ships fall in line - might see the door open for more types of content favoring different styles of play...but until that 2 minute (let's be real, it's a minute or less these days) content is addressed - everything's pretty much broken.
Infact engineers have alot of copy abilities while tact does too, at least tact's feel a lot different, with exception of target sub system. But most of engi powers are emergency power to ___. Which yes have varity of extra effects, but there all about boosting power in fact that's all engineering captains and their abilities feel good at. Though they do have one of my favorite abilities Rotate shield frequency, great for keeping my shields up, they also well at least use to be the best at using loads of beams at once.
As a tact I can go mines or beams or cannons or torpedos, really its up to me and each function and play differently. Yes there all ways of killing the enemy but, they require different strategies to make em work.
Science has so me chooses its almost daunting, they can heal with the best engi healers, they can even tank, great controllers, and disables . Each of which feels very different.
AMEN Brother! No... Seriously... You hit the nail squarely on the head. The OP's suggestion is completely valid but it is only because of what you have laid out here.
I ABHOR "OP" enemies myself. Enemies that hit way harder than you can and who have ridiculous hitpoints, heals, etc... I so very much favor "Smart" enemies who are still on a playing field more level with the player but use a lot of abilities and try to do so in a smart way to be a problem.
If we had smarter enemies then things like Subnuke would not be almost strictly a PvP ability and there would be more need to use crowd control abilities rather than just jack up the damage as high as possible.
Hate to break this to you but most anyone with half a lick of sense is going to put that Lt. Com Universal on the Bortasqu' to use as a Tactical.
Also... This is why the Negh'var in general is a big waste of time. Combine its lack of turn rate (unlike the Vor'cha) and tactical consoles with that poor tactical BOFF seating and it is pretty much just a lumbering target.
The reason why the Vesta is so superior has more to do with its ability to emulate the Boff layout of the Intrepid, RSV and DSSV along with being able to switch console layouts. Most of those running Lt Comm Tac in a Vesta are honestly not doing very much they couldn't do in an escort.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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I strongly disagree with your disagreement. :P
I know, of late, you are particularly outspoken against the entire game being too easy; but if you could let go of that for a moment, you'll see it's not about that at all, but rather about bringing Science and Engineering ships on par with today's power creep (whether one actually likes the power creep or not is a different discussion).
Ideally, Cryptic would make the game content itself less DPS-oriented; that would automagically buff Engineering and Science ships. But we both know that's not going to happen. Geko has spoken "Greed is Good!" So, we'll only ever see more power creep, as part of their entire P2W philosophy.
So, given the existing power creep, I simply say 'yes' to Lt. Cmdr. stations for ALL Science and Engineering ships. The Fleet Galaxy is a joke without it. What the reboot did, really, as a (weak) blast from the past, is merely underline how DPS-oriented the game has become. That is not the fault of the OP: he just broke a lance for a buff to certain ships (actually, Lance was already broken; but n/m that).
Exactly what I just wanted to respond.
This 100 times.
Asking for at least an LC tac slot is kind of a logical conclusion to current state of the game.. But what should be changed is not the BO seating, its that current state.... I believe we need to make supper and healing useful again not turn every ship into an escort^^
But that's the thing. It's not bringing them on par. It's getting rid of them.
But that's the thing. When saying folks can do the stuff in T1 ships (I can't, I'm just an average gamer), one might see that as saying the content is too easy - but what it's actually saying is that the "Eng and Sci" ships folks are complaining about are more than capable of handling the majority of the content in the game. Its just a case that some folks want to fly a certain ship as if it were an Escort instead of an "Eng or Sci" ship.
You can complete ISE with 5x F.Gal's with Eng with optional completed and time to spare. Can you do it in a minute? Not likely...but that's two different issues; which goes to what I see as the problem being that the content can be completed so quickly by some folks out there creating the desire and belief that ships need to be a certain way. It's grind aversion - it's not about fun...what's the rush to grind out stuff faster to be able to grind out stuff faster?
Perhaps some folks see it as me defending false choices, but I'd prefer to defend false choices with the illusion of choice than remove choice all together...I'm big on choice. It comes into play with so many things I tend to end up arguing about.
There's three things that I tend to be grumbling about these days...
PO158.5 - because it was about the combination of saying that the average player in the game was too stupid to be able to make any choices and the reduction of available choices.
Fleet Gal-X BOFF seating - because by not going with the Bulwark BOFF seating for that ship, they've eliminated expected choices one might have for a Dreadnought Cruiser (I don't even have a Fed toon, and this ticks me off - I could totally see the Gal-X fine as it is, it would match the Fleet Negh'Var...yes, it may not really have a place in the game - but it offered a choice amongst the BCs - but with the F.Gal-X being a Dreadnought Cruiser, it should have provided more choice - tada, the Bulwark seating...but it didn't happen).
Removing the shared CDs on Teams - because now players do not have to make a choice in which to use, it's reduced the amount of thinking in the game and goes back to the PO158.5 thing; which basically speaks to the future of the game...Cryptic thinks the players are too stupid to be able to make any choices.
So in going with a change to all "Eng and Sci" boats to give them LCdr or higher Tac - well, it's a combination to me of saying the players are too stupid to figure anything else out to make a choice and the simple issue of removing choice.
Doesn't mean that I don't think some additional Fleet ships with LCdr Unis would be a bad idea - cause that would give choices, eh? It's not ramming the LCdr Tac down somebody's throat. Don't think all should, but definitely more should have that LCdr Uni going for them. The Fleet Gal-X would be one such ship (and I don't even freaking have a Fed toon)...heck, I argued for that after the Gal Reboot blog came out; saying to wait for the F.Gal-X stats before laying into Cryptic too hard, but that if they didn't go Bulwark to rip into them. They didn't go Bulwark...rip into them.
I've used a Com sci and a Lt. Com sci for drain boats and it's just wicked being able to shut down
npcs for the tac guys to destroy. It may not be "needed" but damn is it fun.
Mine Trap Supporter
In PVP, there remains a clear use for non-DPS ships as healers - to the extent that in many hardcore PVP Sci / Cruiser builds, weapons are ignored in favour of auxiliary power for heals or crowd control.
While there is less requirement for PVE healers, as noted already any intelligent build (regardless of platform) is adequate for current content. Frankly, anything other than a Tac-Scimitar seems underpowered in the current PVE game.
So what - there are plenty of LtCom Tac ships available as is. Players who want that have their options; leave the others alone for different gameplay styles. Not everyone is obsessed with being the DPS king, unfortunately those that are tend to be more vocal.
You notice it the most on sci ships because until the dyson, all but a couple had this layout. Enc and tac ships have more variety.
Otherwise I think things are fine they way they are now.
R.I.P
That's the thing, it wasn't much of a choice in PvE. You could not use tactical team and either invest heavy in -th, distribute shields and have enough shield resists to hit 60-75% resistance and constant heals to help OR you can use TT and keep spamming it and rely on passive heals evening it all out. When you weigh up the cost vs benefit it wasn't worth it unless you were going full on meat shield tank that does sweet FA on it's own.
That's the thing, I don't call science ships as under performing because they're not coming close to "teh de epeen ess" of the scimitar and other ships. I say it because what they have is primarily science abilities and rather than utilising a wide range of abilities to complete the objective in a comparable time they are having to be flown as beamboats with max uptime on tactical abilities and the heavy sci is replaced by any science ability that does kinetic damage to make up the difference.
Balance is about letting all classes complete things in a comparable time (within a minute) playing to the class strengths (as in different play styles) not playing all ships the same with minor differences between them.
(in general not directed at staq) This is one of the reasons I've stopped playing. I'm not flying a science ship any more to keep up with the DPS players, I'm flying a tactical beamboat with too many science abilities.
If I fly a defiant and want those really fun looking quad cannons and such I have to accept it's going to either require silly amounts of skill and probably not perform as well as my JHDC.
I would love it if the game had a performance difference of say 25% (at most) between high DPS/skill and average players, by average I mean like VD and meimeitoo, not those in General troll that couldn't hit a transformer with the broadside of a cruiser.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Oh sure, let's have everybody complete STF's within a minute! :P
/tease
Agree to above points, though - the general focus on DPS has been pretty poisonous to the gameplay enjoyment of those preferring CC, debuff & support styles of play.
The issue beneath the muck and mire is that the game fails to provide real choices as the choices we have are meaningless, being homogeneity hidden behind a thinly veiled death mask of pseudo-heterogeneity. Just conside the "one-minute-ISE": Assuming it is what it appears to be (the raw-logic used to control game flow being circumvented by brute force, or "a bad thing") and not a hack it is clear that no escorts/science-vessels are necessary when you can leverage the "best-in-slot-abilities-for-content-progression-from-all-categories (or "professions")" as the Scimitar's layout can.
TL;DR;TL;DR Version: People who argue for or against changes to arbitrary seating are doing so out of ignorance no matter how they color it. Cryptic never finished designing the space experience for players and everything they have been doing tries to avoid doing so which is why arbitrary seating matters as the alternative is "vacuous logic about how you have choice."
Case in point:
Or "anecdotal proof means seating is fine."
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Bird-of-Prey Retrofits have universal CMDR/LTC/LT/LT layouts. A2B both LT and your "absurdity" lags behind by one effective universal LTC station and arguably 2 ensign engineering powers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
BoPs are not escorts. I said 2 CMDR tac and 1 LTC Sci. Get an ET I hear they are all the rage now.
If they did this (which they won't btw), that would remove the value of certain ships which are valued for precisely the reason that they CAN use that layout.
As of current, there are only a few fed cruisers that have the LtCmdr Tac option (Regent, Excelsior, Avenger, Odysseys). They are valued due to their ability to use a LtCmdr tactical. If ALL fed cruisers had that option, their value would drop significantly.
Same for KDF battlecruisers. One of the strongest selling points on the Tor'kaht and Mogh are their access to the LtCmdr AND Lt Tactical (optional with Mogh, comes with the Tor'kaht). That makes them among the highest damage dealing potential BCs available. Granted they won't be as tanky (even though the level of tank they lose is not even necessary for normal gameplay) but it doesn't matter, since they hit harder.
I won't go into science ships, since their issues are an entire infestation of worms (TRIBBLE your can) and could easily (and DO easily) take up three or four more 1k+ post threads.
Soooo I'll have to go with NO. Very VERY strongly disagree with OP.
CMD Eng
Ltc Eng
Lt Tac
Lt Uni
Ens sci
That seems like the ideal cruiser setup. It probably is a ship and I've just forgotten which.
I'd also like to see a ship that was LTC, LTC, LT, LT, LT.
Probably LTC ENG, LTC Uni, Lt Tac, Lt Sci, Lt Uni.
But I'd be interested to see how else it could be arranged.