I'd agree that the specific mission type determines the ship classification (mentioned earlier), so size does not really matter, when talking ships. The power/resources required to perform the specific assigned mission is becoming dynamic in game (universal consoles), and reflects RL evolution of research and development in ship building as well.
According to Okuda(Michael), who has written a few pubs on such topics, The Defiant was a constitution class."The Constitution-class starships, which were also known as Starship-class1 or Class I Heavy Cruisers, were the premier front-line Starfleet vessels in the latter half of the 23rd century"
We all know (hopefully) that the defiant was an experimental design, where the power of a much larger ship was crammed into a smaller, more agile ship frame.The fact that it was developed as a heavy cruiser is NOT reflected in game (would be OP). One could even call it a Battle Cruiser by stretching that to include the specific purpose it was intended to fill, even if calling it the exception to the general rule. The actual size of the ship ranges from 50m to 170m based on canon data points.
I'd say that this ship (and a few others) could throw a wrench in the "size" rating as a standard shiip measuring tool argument, since it (starship evolution)can be assumed that Starfleet is always experimenting with new ship/size/mission combinations that perform specific missions not constrained solely by the size of the ship being tasked. The addition of hybrid ship types (Dyson pack and any other 3 ship pack) and the accompanying universal consoles is my example in game.
I'm not sure what you are going for. Michael Okuda talks about the original USS Defiant, which is indeed a constitution class cruiser. DS9s USS Defiant and Defiant class, however, has nothing to do with the original ship. DS9s writers probably just forgot about the fact that the USS Defiant existed at one point. It doesn't make the Defiant class a heavy cruiser by any means. The constitution class, likewise, is not a heavy cruiser anymore in TNG and beyond since ship construction evolved and what once was a heavy cruiser was degraded to transport vessels due to technical limitations. In STOs timeframe I'd suspect anything of the size of the Ambassador class and up would be classified as a heavy cruiser, which also invludes the Akira class though that became almost as nimble as the Defiant in STO...
Umm, not sure where you got that idea that the Defiant was lightly armed. It is a bunch of guns strapped to engines, and has enough fire power to blow away a galaxy class starship easily. They even state in the episode where it is introduced that it was actually a warship and was only called an escort because Starfleet refuses to admit it is a military.
No where does it say ANYTHING about the Excelsior being called a battleship, and actually it is never technically classified anywhere. Also, maybe you should know about the show you are talking about before typing, because one of the major things with starfleet is that they refuse to admit there is anything military about them, let alone admitting something is a battleship in ANY way.
Please, actually know about the ships you are talking about, because you and people like the OP seem to have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the ships of Star Trek. In terms of the player ships, STO has actually done a decent job at correctly classifying what each canon ship is.
I don't know where that glorification of the Defiant comes from. Only because Sisko said it's a warship? Does this "cool" term really mean people think it is the bestest ship ever? The Defiant was weapons strapped to an engione, that is right. It had superior firepower for it's size. It's a heavily armoured B'Rel, and because they came up with the (mothballed) design as a reaction to the Borg encounter doesn't mean that the ship would in any way shape or form be able to single handedly fight Borg. The single ship was outgunned by a refitted Excelsior class. It is a frigate with a lot of firepower in that class, but in no way a match for large cruisers except if the plot demands that the Negh'Var they are facing is commanded by MU idiot Worf who was completely unable to even HIT the damn thing
Defiant class ships are most likely designed to operate in wings and provide fire support for larger vessels, just like the B'Rels the KDF fields. If the plot demands it a B'Rel can destroy a Galaxy class, we know that - but to assume that's the default performance of such a vessel is... adventerous, at best.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
the connie was in canon reclassified an escort cruiser.
(...)
I never heard or read that term anywhere Or do you refer to JJTrek?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
nope.
its what they where called when reactivated in the dominion war.
they could still hurt things, but didnt have the survivability due to being both old and compared to akira types, rather small. so they where used for convoy escort and fleet screening(get in the way of kamekizi) roles.
Um no, the Constitution and the Constitution Refit were never reclassified on screen, they were called Class I Heavy Cruisers that's it. The only ship that might have been a Constitution Refit was the USS Olympia.
nope.
its what they where called when reactivated in the dominion war.
they could still hurt things, but didnt have the survivability due to being both old and compared to akira types, rather small. so they where used for convoy escort and fleet screening(get in the way of kamekizi) roles.
The single ship was outgunned by a refitted Excelsior class.
If you're referring to the Defiant vs Lakota battle, the Lakota got a lot of free shots in at the start and was still bluntly stated to be in worse shape after the fight ended. That's a long way from the Defiant being outgunned. Infact that result makes it pretty clear that had the Defiant come in firing, it would've been a slaughter.
The Defiant class is an example of what happens when Starfleet forgoes its normal science focus and builds a ship specifically for combat. Had the Galaxy or Excelsior been built as actual ships of the line rather than exploration first and everything else later, very little would pose a military threat to the Federation. Thing is, they weren't - Starfleet hates purpose-built warships for some reason or other and instead packs every ship it builds with all the non-combat doodads it can think of, only slapping a few guns on at the last minute for the sake of self-defense in a pinch. And it's this design philosophy that ensures no canon Starfleet cruiser can ever be called a battleship.
thats great if you want to call intrepids very heavy cruisers
book.
Books are not canon, the only real canon are the TV shows and movies, so no they were never reclassified. As for "forgetting" about the connie defiant, it is called naming another ship with the same name, or have you forgotten the Enterprise has been more than 1 ship. it also does not matter what you want to do or think, it matters what is on screen and on screen the connie was classified as a heavy cruiser and that never changed.
Also, DS9 is FAR better than voyager or enterprise, and in my opinion is even better than TOS. only TBG was better.
i dont care what you think was better, as if your opinion is worth more than mine, you little hypocrite.
to follow your own reasoning, what was shown onscreen was that the defiant was a rotten mary sue boat that only achieved anything on account of blatant use of plot armour and bad writing tropes.
voyager or enterprise being worse doesnt change that
??? when was it shown to be a "mary sue" boat, the very first episode it appears in has it getting roflstomped by Bugships, and then it eventually goes boom about halfway through the dominion war. It was no more a plot ship than any of the Enterprises were or the Voyager.
From the sounds of it, you just do not like DS9 and are taking it out on the ship.
the defiant is a BoP. a bop that the federation couldnt get working properly.
only plot armour and baseless fanboy splooging make it anything else.
the connie was in canon reclassified an escort cruiser.
.
The Defiant was HEAVILY armed, with photon torpedos, quantum torpedos (that were never used btw but they were there) and a forward dual pulse phaser. It was a ship designed to fight the Borg and the Dominion. And it was by far stronger than a BoP.. lol, by far far far far... the Defiant destroyed a lot of jem hadar attack ships like nothing.
Now, other completely thing is that in the game, cryptic changed the defiant and it is almost one of the worst high-end ships of the game, unfortunately.
A Defiant could easily get rid of a Galaxy class in seconds. Because it was designed to be a warship. But a tv show is only that, and the same happened with other ships, that in the end, they dont appear as much as they should or people wanted. The problem is, a lot of people see the Defiant as a little ship with just light escort roles. That is not true lol. The only "bad" thing that the Defiant has is the size. For a tactical ship, it should be one of the bests of the game, but as all we know, cryptic tends to change things for their purposes.
Ensign: "Captain! Several enemy ships just entered the system!!"
Captain: "Mr Robbins, what are we up against?"
Ensign: "Um... 3 Big ones, 6 Medium sized ones and 8 little ones."
Captain: "Hmm.... can you be more specific?"
Ensign: "Well, one of the big ones seems to be spitting out really small ships, the other two look really tough to take down. A couple of the medium sized ships look like they might be capable of creating spatial anomalies and the little ones look like they might move real fast and pack a real big punch. Oh, and one of them looks like a peanut."
Captain: "Sigh.... If only there were words in the English language to say all of what you just said in a tenth of the time...."
That's why.....
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Ensign: "captain! Several Enemy Ships Just Entered The System!!"
Captain: "mr Robbins, What Are We Up Against?"
Ensign: "um... 3 Big Ones, 6 Medium Sized Ones And 8 Little Ones."
Captain: "hmm.... Can You Be More Specific?"
Ensign: "well, One Of The Big Ones Seems To Be Spitting Out Really Small Ships, The Other Two Look Really Tough To Take Down. A Couple Of The Medium Sized Ships Look Like They Might Be Capable Of Creating Spatial Anomalies And The Little Ones Look Like They Might Move Real Fast And Pack A Real Big Punch. Oh, And One Of Them Looks Like A Peanut."
Captain: "sigh.... If Only There Were Words In The English Language To Say All Of What You Just Said In A Tenth Of The Time...."
That's Why.....
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I agree that the ships are not fixed anylonger however saying that not all science ships are science is just stupid LOL @ that reply. It's true that science ships are not only for science captains anylonger but as we're seeing with their "engineers are quickly working to upgrade all science ships to encorporate a secondary deflector array" science ships certainly work very well with science captains.
The history of this game is definitely of the trinity because when it started it was designed to be a standard mmo concept game. Tank DPS Healer system where dungeoneering for RNG drops were the only functional gameplay at the time. That system has definitely changed however they never updated these three roles to improve the diversity really, they made a slightly better system of skills and traits and doffs but until they add more diversity will still be limited to some degree.
You seem just to be basing this all on your hate for DS9. It is EXPLICITLY stated in the show that it has more fire power than any other ship they have and that it is literally just a set of guns strapped to an engine and even then, the amount of power the prototype (the 1st defiant from the show)used has insane for its size and nearly ripped itself to pieces. You are ignoring everything the show stated about it to blab about your own opinion about the ship. Now please, stop embarrassing yourself with your obvious lack of knowledge about the TV show
Okay, so you admit you are ignoring everything on-screen that goes against your views? okay, thanks for making your argument more worthless than it already is. I would point out what is wrong in your post, but i think you have already proved you are not looking for reason and are just raging.
na. plenty in ds9 that wasnt mary sue nonsense. red squad getting one shotted in thier little pt boat for one.
the mirror universe defiant getting killed off-screen the moment sisco wasnt on-board with his character shield.
all that obvious stuff.
doesnt change the simple fact that the defiant as it was depicted in ds9 was just a fed bop with plot armour, completly outspecced by a sabre, let alone an akira.
yet in laa laa land of the dribbly fan boy, a defiant can beat any other ship, while being inferior to sabre's and akira's, and could beat a galaxy class despite a galaxy being better than both the sable and akira.
you make no sense, and have nothing you can prove wrong, except your own ridiculous fanboyism.
This boys, guys, and aliens is a fine example of hypocrisy.
Back to the point, outside the realm of the Dev's mind, STO's ship designations really make no sense. I mean we have science vessels that can outgun cruisers, destroyers, and so on.
Umm, not sure where you got that idea that the Defiant was lightly armed. It is a bunch of guns strapped to engines, and has enough fire power to blow away a galaxy class starship easily. They even state in the episode where it is introduced that it was actually a warship and was only called an escort because Starfleet refuses to admit it is a military.
I am not saying it is a light armed ship. I am saying exactly what you are saying. It is a well armed and maneuverable starship that Starfleet merely classified as an escort.
What I am saving is that in real life escort ships are considered lightly armed naval surface vessels. The destroyer escort is an example. Because of that the term "Escort" used for highly armed starship does not make sense to me.
No where does it say ANYTHING about the Excelsior being called a battleship, and actually it is never technically classified anywhere. Also, maybe you should know about the show you are talking about before typing, because one of the major things with starfleet is that they refuse to admit there is anything military about them, let alone admitting something is a battleship in ANY way.
Please, actually know about the ships you are talking about, because you and people like the OP seem to have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the ships of Star Trek. In terms of the player ships, STO has actually done a decent job at correctly classifying what each canon ship is.
Whoa....
Over emotional and highly juvenile response.
Actually, I can point to a reference which states the Excelsior class starship is considered a battleship. It is over at Memory Beta (link below) which "is a wikipedia-style database for licensed Star Trek works, including novels, comic books, RPG sourcebooks, video games and any other licensed works."
Unfortunately, that means "Battleship" it is a non-canon classification for the Excelsior class starship. By that I mean information that is not from any movie or TV series or from Paramount itself. I probably came across that website sometime in the past and did not know it was the information was non-canon. Below is the link to Excelsior class.
This boys, guys, and aliens is a fine example of hypocrisy.
Back to the point, outside the realm of the Dev's mind, STO's ship designations really make no sense. I mean we have science vessels that can outgun cruisers, destroyers, and so on.
well, Feds have ALWAYS been a bit stupid in that regard. The Connie and Galaxy class were supposed to be basically luxury exploration vessels, that just so happen to be equal to the more militaristic governments. That, and i always pass it off that most of the ships were refitted for war, including the science ships.
I am not saying it is a light armed ship. I am saying exactly what you are saying. It is a well armed and maneuverable starship that Starfleet merely classified as an escort.
What I am saving is that in real life escort ships are considered lightly armed naval surface vessels. The destroyer escort is an example. Because of that the term "Escort" used for highly armed starship does not make sense to me.
Whoa....
Over emotional and highly juvenile response.
Actually, I can point to a reference which states the Excelsior class starship is considered a battleship. It is over at Memory Beta (link below) which "is a wikipedia-style database for licensed Star Trek works, including novels, comic books, RPG sourcebooks, video games and any other licensed works."
Unfortunately, that means "Battleship" it is a non-canon classification for the Excelsior class starship. By that I mean information that is not from any movie or TV series or from Paramount itself. I probably came across that website sometime in the past and did not know it was the information was non-canon. Below is the link to Excelsior class.
That was part of the point in calling it an escort, they were trying to hide the fact it was one of the most powerful ships in the quadrant, yet was made by a group that supposedly was not a military.
As for the second thing, yup, NON-canon, as in it was not an official thing, and thus does not matter in the long run.
well, Feds have ALWAYS been a bit stupid in that regard. The Connie and Galaxy class were supposed to be basically luxury exploration vessels, that just so happen to be equal to the more militaristic governments. That, and i always pass it off that most of the ships were refitted for war, including the science ships.
If you mean luxurious as in better accommodations than its predecessor, than yes. Constitution was never referred to as an explorer, but a Class I Heavy Cruiser.
The major thing that Trek ships that has shown, is what their actual purpose. Pretty much, everything from a small Defiant to the large Sovereign has been shown to do the same exact thing. In fact, the little Danube has done near same missions. I wished that we have seen more mission diversity with the ship of the week. STO could have fixed that, but they didn't, in fact the roles are so jumbled, it doesn't matter, they should release all the ships similar to the Odyssey, Bortas, Scimitar, and Vesta with just tac, eng, and sci oriented versions.
Edit: canon-wise really doesn't matter in a game that draws inspiration from a number of Trek sources.
Comments
Oh yeah...
You're right. We should go back to the old Cryptic ways.
I'm not sure what you are going for. Michael Okuda talks about the original USS Defiant, which is indeed a constitution class cruiser. DS9s USS Defiant and Defiant class, however, has nothing to do with the original ship. DS9s writers probably just forgot about the fact that the USS Defiant existed at one point. It doesn't make the Defiant class a heavy cruiser by any means. The constitution class, likewise, is not a heavy cruiser anymore in TNG and beyond since ship construction evolved and what once was a heavy cruiser was degraded to transport vessels due to technical limitations. In STOs timeframe I'd suspect anything of the size of the Ambassador class and up would be classified as a heavy cruiser, which also invludes the Akira class though that became almost as nimble as the Defiant in STO...
I don't know where that glorification of the Defiant comes from. Only because Sisko said it's a warship? Does this "cool" term really mean people think it is the bestest ship ever? The Defiant was weapons strapped to an engione, that is right. It had superior firepower for it's size. It's a heavily armoured B'Rel, and because they came up with the (mothballed) design as a reaction to the Borg encounter doesn't mean that the ship would in any way shape or form be able to single handedly fight Borg. The single ship was outgunned by a refitted Excelsior class. It is a frigate with a lot of firepower in that class, but in no way a match for large cruisers except if the plot demands that the Negh'Var they are facing is commanded by MU idiot Worf who was completely unable to even HIT the damn thing
Defiant class ships are most likely designed to operate in wings and provide fire support for larger vessels, just like the B'Rels the KDF fields. If the plot demands it a B'Rel can destroy a Galaxy class, we know that - but to assume that's the default performance of such a vessel is... adventerous, at best.
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I never heard or read that term anywhere
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Um no, the Constitution and the Constitution Refit were never reclassified on screen, they were called Class I Heavy Cruisers that's it. The only ship that might have been a Constitution Refit was the USS Olympia.
Where the heck does this come from?
If you're referring to the Defiant vs Lakota battle, the Lakota got a lot of free shots in at the start and was still bluntly stated to be in worse shape after the fight ended. That's a long way from the Defiant being outgunned. Infact that result makes it pretty clear that had the Defiant come in firing, it would've been a slaughter.
The Defiant class is an example of what happens when Starfleet forgoes its normal science focus and builds a ship specifically for combat. Had the Galaxy or Excelsior been built as actual ships of the line rather than exploration first and everything else later, very little would pose a military threat to the Federation. Thing is, they weren't - Starfleet hates purpose-built warships for some reason or other and instead packs every ship it builds with all the non-combat doodads it can think of, only slapping a few guns on at the last minute for the sake of self-defense in a pinch. And it's this design philosophy that ensures no canon Starfleet cruiser can ever be called a battleship.
Books are not canon, the only real canon are the TV shows and movies, so no they were never reclassified. As for "forgetting" about the connie defiant, it is called naming another ship with the same name, or have you forgotten the Enterprise has been more than 1 ship. it also does not matter what you want to do or think, it matters what is on screen and on screen the connie was classified as a heavy cruiser and that never changed.
Also, DS9 is FAR better than voyager or enterprise, and in my opinion is even better than TOS. only TBG was better.
??? when was it shown to be a "mary sue" boat, the very first episode it appears in has it getting roflstomped by Bugships, and then it eventually goes boom about halfway through the dominion war. It was no more a plot ship than any of the Enterprises were or the Voyager.
From the sounds of it, you just do not like DS9 and are taking it out on the ship.
Now you've said that... the title just makes me laugh now.
The Defiant was HEAVILY armed, with photon torpedos, quantum torpedos (that were never used btw but they were there) and a forward dual pulse phaser. It was a ship designed to fight the Borg and the Dominion. And it was by far stronger than a BoP.. lol, by far far far far... the Defiant destroyed a lot of jem hadar attack ships like nothing.
Now, other completely thing is that in the game, cryptic changed the defiant and it is almost one of the worst high-end ships of the game, unfortunately.
A Defiant could easily get rid of a Galaxy class in seconds. Because it was designed to be a warship. But a tv show is only that, and the same happened with other ships, that in the end, they dont appear as much as they should or people wanted. The problem is, a lot of people see the Defiant as a little ship with just light escort roles. That is not true lol. The only "bad" thing that the Defiant has is the size. For a tactical ship, it should be one of the bests of the game, but as all we know, cryptic tends to change things for their purposes.
Because:
Ensign: "Captain! Several enemy ships just entered the system!!"
Captain: "Mr Robbins, what are we up against?"
Ensign: "Um... 3 Big ones, 6 Medium sized ones and 8 little ones."
Captain: "Hmm.... can you be more specific?"
Ensign: "Well, one of the big ones seems to be spitting out really small ships, the other two look really tough to take down. A couple of the medium sized ships look like they might be capable of creating spatial anomalies and the little ones look like they might move real fast and pack a real big punch. Oh, and one of them looks like a peanut."
Captain: "Sigh.... If only there were words in the English language to say all of what you just said in a tenth of the time...."
That's why.....
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
The history of this game is definitely of the trinity because when it started it was designed to be a standard mmo concept game. Tank DPS Healer system where dungeoneering for RNG drops were the only functional gameplay at the time. That system has definitely changed however they never updated these three roles to improve the diversity really, they made a slightly better system of skills and traits and doffs but until they add more diversity will still be limited to some degree.
This boys, guys, and aliens is a fine example of hypocrisy.
Back to the point, outside the realm of the Dev's mind, STO's ship designations really make no sense. I mean we have science vessels that can outgun cruisers, destroyers, and so on.
I am not saying it is a light armed ship. I am saying exactly what you are saying. It is a well armed and maneuverable starship that Starfleet merely classified as an escort.
What I am saving is that in real life escort ships are considered lightly armed naval surface vessels. The destroyer escort is an example. Because of that the term "Escort" used for highly armed starship does not make sense to me.
Whoa....
Over emotional and highly juvenile response.
Actually, I can point to a reference which states the Excelsior class starship is considered a battleship. It is over at Memory Beta (link below) which "is a wikipedia-style database for licensed Star Trek works, including novels, comic books, RPG sourcebooks, video games and any other licensed works."
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
Unfortunately, that means "Battleship" it is a non-canon classification for the Excelsior class starship. By that I mean information that is not from any movie or TV series or from Paramount itself. I probably came across that website sometime in the past and did not know it was the information was non-canon. Below is the link to Excelsior class.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Excelsior_class
well, Feds have ALWAYS been a bit stupid in that regard. The Connie and Galaxy class were supposed to be basically luxury exploration vessels, that just so happen to be equal to the more militaristic governments. That, and i always pass it off that most of the ships were refitted for war, including the science ships.
That was part of the point in calling it an escort, they were trying to hide the fact it was one of the most powerful ships in the quadrant, yet was made by a group that supposedly was not a military.
As for the second thing, yup, NON-canon, as in it was not an official thing, and thus does not matter in the long run.
If you mean luxurious as in better accommodations than its predecessor, than yes. Constitution was never referred to as an explorer, but a Class I Heavy Cruiser.
The major thing that Trek ships that has shown, is what their actual purpose. Pretty much, everything from a small Defiant to the large Sovereign has been shown to do the same exact thing. In fact, the little Danube has done near same missions. I wished that we have seen more mission diversity with the ship of the week. STO could have fixed that, but they didn't, in fact the roles are so jumbled, it doesn't matter, they should release all the ships similar to the Odyssey, Bortas, Scimitar, and Vesta with just tac, eng, and sci oriented versions.
Edit: canon-wise really doesn't matter in a game that draws inspiration from a number of Trek sources.