Actually, the train of thought for "small, medium, and large" in classification and power for Star Trek makes a whole lot of sense.
In short, the bigger the ship, the more powerful it was. In terms of defense, staying power, firepower. The only ship that broke the rule in the TV shows and movies is the USS Plot Armor (Defiant).
Cruisers were the backbone of every fleet, but expensive. Smaller stuff like destroyers, frigates, etc. were smaller, fragile, less firepower, but far more cost effective and good enough in patrolling and keeping the peace within the borders.
But in the end, if we're just talking about sheer power, Cruisers were it. "Battleships" and such were extremely, rarely shown in the TV shows & movies (Scimitar, Jem'Hadar Battleship... you never saw a JH Battleship blow up, etc). But Cruisers were more frequently found and were a sign of power... when someone was serious about something. When that exploration vessel or some patrol ship got taken out by something strange, dangerous, they sent... the USS Enterprise, always a Cruiser during its time of service.
And the problem with the above is that people want to use the Defiant in the game - and thus a huge percentage of the fan-base would want an exception to the rule trying to be established.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Actually, the train of thought for "small, medium, and large" in classification and power for Star Trek makes a whole lot of sense.
In short, the bigger the ship, the more powerful it was. In terms of defense, staying power, firepower. The only ship that broke the rule in the TV shows and movies is the USS Plot Armor (Defiant).
Cruisers were the backbone of every fleet, but expensive. Smaller stuff like destroyers, frigates, etc. were smaller, fragile, less firepower, but far more cost effective and good enough in patrolling and keeping the peace within the borders.
But in the end, if we're just talking about sheer power, Cruisers were it. "Battleships" and such were extremely, rarely shown in the TV shows & movies (Scimitar, Jem'Hadar Battleship... you never saw a JH Battleship blow up, etc). But Cruisers were more frequently found and were a sign of power... when someone was serious about something. When that exploration vessel or some patrol ship got taken out by something strange, dangerous, they sent... the USS Enterprise, always a Cruiser during its time of service.
Mostly. Lore wise, the size of the warp core of this ship mattered more then the total size of the ship. How much power you can dump into shields and weapons help in battle. VIP rooms and crew lounges, while nice, do not help you in battle.
Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing the OP is just upset at the Galaxy reboot and specifically Bort's post about the Galaxy X. And thus the thread here focusing on ship classification since the X doesn't match what the poster thought it did after reading Bort's post on it.
Could you link Bort's post please? I am not certain which one you are referring to.
As to the ship classification thing, the reason you don't find Starfleet vessels listed under a standard naval table of organization is that they want to avoid the appearance of being a purely military organization (the guy who created Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry, disliked the idea of Starfleet being a military organization), rather than an exploration force with defense capabilities.
The idea that you would be sending a battlecruiser or destroyer rather than an "exploration cruiser" might not sit well with some political entities, regardless of the ship's actual capabilities.
If you want to see Star Trek with a true military table of organization, go take a look at Starfleet Battles.
As per the title why "escort", "cruiser" and "science vessel"?
Why not "small", "medium" and "large" where hull/weapons/shields are a function of that system?
Because the game once had an actual valid design and balance.
Since PWE bought Cryptic it was tossed out and made dps-uber-alles grindy microtransaction garbage quality content game.
If you had been here pre-F2P and seen the beautiful balance between the ship classes you would light a candle and weep upon it...for we have lost too much to gain too little.
Because the game once had an actual valid design and balance.
Since PWE bought Cryptic it was tossed out and made dps-uber-alles grindy microtransaction garbage quality content game.
If you had been here pre-F2P and seen the beautiful balance between the ship classes you would light a candle and weep upon it...for we have lost too much to gain too little.
Since PWE bought Cryptic? Did you play any missions or STFs prior to the purchase? Remember when the Excelsior was the first C-Store ship and was the best combat Cruiser in the game for years?
People's memories are rose-colored around here.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
As per the title why "escort", "cruiser" and "science vessel"?
Why not "small", "medium" and "large" where hull/weapons/shields are a function of that system?
They are not, the list is much longer:
raider (6 weapons, all universal officers, not exactly an escort -- at least one has more eng consoles than tac)
escort
destroyer
science
support (usually science with 1 bay and strong engineering)
cruiser (has cruiser commands)
warbirds ( many fall into other categories but their 'cruisers' lack cruiser commands and the dreadnaughts are almost a class of their own as a dps large ship that is not a cruiser)
carriers (have 2 bays and whatever else)
Role matters as much as size. Its a little odd that a ship the size of one of my pets (tvaro) can blow up my carrier in 1/2 a second, yes. But they can't very well make a feet t5 ship only have 1 gun either...
lore wise, Starfleet would field nothing but "Cruisers" in different weight classes. The only exceptions to that rule would be the Oberth and Nova classes which would be classified as research/science ships, the Olympic which is a hospital/medical ship and the Defiant which is officially called "Escort". Everything else would be either light cruisers, heavy cruisers or explorers (which designates Starfleet's heaviest ships).
There is only one canon reference to a Starfleet frigate which meant the New Orleans Class which is a cruiser probably similiar in size to the Intrepid Class. A frigate in tar Trek terms is more of a function than a class, basically meaning an ship performing escort and protection duty.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'd agree that the specific mission type determines the ship classification (mentioned earlier), so size does not really matter, when talking ships. The power/resources required to perform the specific assigned mission is becoming dynamic in game (universal consoles), and reflects RL evolution of research and development in ship building as well.
According to Okuda(Michael), who has written a few pubs on such topics, The Defiant was a constitution class."The Constitution-class starships, which were also known as Starship-class1 or Class I Heavy Cruisers, were the premier front-line Starfleet vessels in the latter half of the 23rd century"
We all know (hopefully) that the defiant was an experimental design, where the power of a much larger ship was crammed into a smaller, more agile ship frame.The fact that it was developed as a heavy cruiser is NOT reflected in game (would be OP). One could even call it a Battle Cruiser by stretching that to include the specific purpose it was intended to fill, even if calling it the exception to the general rule. The actual size of the ship ranges from 50m to 170m based on canon data points.
I'd say that this ship (and a few others) could throw a wrench in the "size" rating as a standard shiip measuring tool argument, since it (starship evolution)can be assumed that Starfleet is always experimenting with new ship/size/mission combinations that perform specific missions not constrained solely by the size of the ship being tasked. The addition of hybrid ship types (Dyson pack and any other 3 ship pack) and the accompanying universal consoles is my example in game.
Since PWE bought Cryptic? Did you play any missions or STFs prior to the purchase? Remember when the Excelsior was the first C-Store ship and was the best combat Cruiser in the game for years?
People's memories are rose-colored around here.
Remember logging into the beta and your frame rate would drop to near zero, even with high-end discrete graphics?
I'd agree that the specific mission type determines the ship classification (mentioned earlier), so size does not really matter, when talking ships. The power/resources required to perform the specific assigned mission is becoming dynamic in game (universal consoles), and reflects RL evolution of research and development in ship building as well.
According to Okuda(Michael), who has written a few pubs on such topics, The Defiant was a constitution class."The Constitution-class starships, which were also known as Starship-class1 or Class I Heavy Cruisers, were the premier front-line Starfleet vessels in the latter half of the 23rd century"
We all know (hopefully) that the defiant was an experimental design, where the power of a much larger ship was crammed into a smaller, more agile ship frame.The fact that it was developed as a heavy cruiser is NOT reflected in game (would be OP). One could even call it a Battle Cruiser by stretching that to include the specific purpose it was intended to fill, even if calling it the exception to the general rule. The actual size of the ship ranges from 50m to 170m based on canon data points.
I'd say that this ship (and a few others) could throw a wrench in the "size" rating as a standard shiip measuring tool argument, since it (starship evolution)can be assumed that Starfleet is always experimenting with new ship/size/mission combinations that perform specific missions not constrained solely by the size of the ship being tasked. The addition of hybrid ship types (Dyson pack and any other 3 ship pack) and the accompanying universal consoles is my example in game.
Are you claiming that I am arguing "size = measuring tool"?
Because the game once had an actual valid design and balance.
Since PWE bought Cryptic it was tossed out and made dps-uber-alles grindy microtransaction garbage quality content game.
If you had been here pre-F2P and seen the beautiful balance between the ship classes you would light a candle and weep upon it...for we have lost too much to gain too little.
Wha?
Wha?
Sorry, you had me confused there. I remember the forums regularly crying in up roar on a regular basis. The Klingons used to be the best faction period in PvP. Science ships were way out of balance using the proper powers.
Oh yeah, and content drought.
"beautiful balance" wtf? It was alright but it wasn't beautiful and this game was never quite as good as it has been since LoR release. Sorry.
I may take issue with gambling boxes and the whole concept that I can't pay just 15 a month and get a solid game for the price, but there's a lot that PWE/Cryptic has done that's vastly superior in terms of gameplay, performance, and content compared to the days when Atari was starving the company for money.
As per the title why "escort", "cruiser" and "science vessel"?
Why not "small", "medium" and "large" where hull/weapons/shields are a function of that system?
cryptic before it became PWE in 2011, they created it but its woefully inaccurate to a number of ship classes or their true status.
examples would be the akira class, its a heavy cruiser however cryptic had it turned into a super maneuverable escort which just looks absurd most of the time.
the galaxy class cruiser is built primarily for exploration which means a lot of science apparatus and some engineering in the background, but from time to time there is a tactical aspect.
keldon class is a warship, but again cryptic got their fangs into it and turned it into a science cruiser.
but its apart of a larger issue though, same with your simplification, classifying the defiant as small, doesnt that mean its useless? the defiant is a beast under the worst of conditions. its completely inaccurate.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
raider (6 weapons, all universal officers, not exactly an escort -- at least one has more eng consoles than tac)
escort
destroyer
science
support (usually science with 1 bay and strong engineering)
cruiser (has cruiser commands)
warbirds ( many fall into other categories but their 'cruisers' lack cruiser commands and the dreadnaughts are almost a class of their own as a dps large ship that is not a cruiser)
carriers (have 2 bays and whatever else)
Role matters as much as size. Its a little odd that a ship the size of one of my pets (tvaro) can blow up my carrier in 1/2 a second, yes. But they can't very well make a feet t5 ship only have 1 gun either...
Since everything a ship does comes from it's technology and ship type is apparently tied to the department used most, all ships are Cruisers (Engineering) ! :cool:
The Constitution and Enterprise class starships are Heavy Cruiser.
The Mirandra class starship (like the Reliant) is a light Cruiser.
The Galaxy class starship is a Exploration / Heavy Cruiser.
The USS Excelsior was classified as a Battleship when it was launched; it was significantly larger than the Enterprise-A. That means the Enterprise-B was a Battleship, the only one which was not classified as a Heavy Cruiser.
The Defiant was classified as an Escort when it was 1st introduced in DS9. However, the term "escort" has two different meaning for the series and Star Trek Online. The Defiant was referred to as a wolf in sheep's clothing meaning the writer used the traditional naval definition of "escort" which is a small, lightly armed vessel. Examples would be the Destroyer Escort who's primary mission in WWII was to hunt down submarines or service as escort ships for "regular" Destroyers which were larger, faster and better armed than the escort versions. In STO, Escort is a generic term they decided to use for the so called "holy trinity" TRIBBLE.
The Constitution and Enterprise class starships are Heavy Cruiser.
The Mirandra class starship (like the Reliant) is a light Cruiser.
The Galaxy class starship is a Exploration / Heavy Cruiser.
The USS Excelsior was classified as a Battleship when it was launched; it was significantly larger than the Enterprise-A. That means the Enterprise-B was a Battleship, the only one which was not classified as a Heavy Cruiser.
The Defiant was classified as an Escort when it was 1st introduced in DS9. However, the term "escort" has two different meaning for the series and Star Trek Online. The Defiant was referred to as a wolf in sheep's clothing meaning the writer used the traditional naval definition of "escort" which is a small, lightly armed vessel. Examples would be the Destroyer Escort who's primary mission in WWII was to hunt down submarines or service as escort ships for "regular" Destroyers which were larger, faster and better armed than the escort versions. In STO, Escort is a generic term they decided to use for the so called "holy trinity" TRIBBLE.
Umm, not sure where you got that idea that the Defiant was lightly armed. It is a bunch of guns strapped to engines, and has enough fire power to blow away a galaxy class starship easily. They even state in the episode where it is introduced that it was actually a warship and was only called an escort because Starfleet refuses to admit it is a military.
No where does it say ANYTHING about the Excelsior being called a battleship, and actually it is never technically classified anywhere. Also, maybe you should know about the show you are talking about before typing, because one of the major things with starfleet is that they refuse to admit there is anything military about them, let alone admitting something is a battleship in ANY way.
Please, actually know about the ships you are talking about, because you and people like the OP seem to have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the ships of Star Trek. In terms of the player ships, STO has actually done a decent job at correctly classifying what each canon ship is.
Comments
Mostly. Lore wise, the size of the warp core of this ship mattered more then the total size of the ship. How much power you can dump into shields and weapons help in battle. VIP rooms and crew lounges, while nice, do not help you in battle.
Lizard, Spock?
Could you link Bort's post please? I am not certain which one you are referring to.
As to the ship classification thing, the reason you don't find Starfleet vessels listed under a standard naval table of organization is that they want to avoid the appearance of being a purely military organization (the guy who created Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry, disliked the idea of Starfleet being a military organization), rather than an exploration force with defense capabilities.
The idea that you would be sending a battlecruiser or destroyer rather than an "exploration cruiser" might not sit well with some political entities, regardless of the ship's actual capabilities.
If you want to see Star Trek with a true military table of organization, go take a look at Starfleet Battles.
It was a little bit down in the dev tracker because Smirk apparently went on a posting rampage. But here is the post itself.
It was in the tribble forums in response to Galaxy Reboot feedback.
Many many thanks. I would have missed it.
Because the game once had an actual valid design and balance.
Since PWE bought Cryptic it was tossed out and made dps-uber-alles grindy microtransaction garbage quality content game.
If you had been here pre-F2P and seen the beautiful balance between the ship classes you would light a candle and weep upon it...for we have lost too much to gain too little.
People's memories are rose-colored around here.
They are not, the list is much longer:
raider (6 weapons, all universal officers, not exactly an escort -- at least one has more eng consoles than tac)
escort
destroyer
science
support (usually science with 1 bay and strong engineering)
cruiser (has cruiser commands)
warbirds ( many fall into other categories but their 'cruisers' lack cruiser commands and the dreadnaughts are almost a class of their own as a dps large ship that is not a cruiser)
carriers (have 2 bays and whatever else)
Role matters as much as size. Its a little odd that a ship the size of one of my pets (tvaro) can blow up my carrier in 1/2 a second, yes. But they can't very well make a feet t5 ship only have 1 gun either...
There is only one canon reference to a Starfleet frigate which meant the New Orleans Class which is a cruiser probably similiar in size to the Intrepid Class. A frigate in tar Trek terms is more of a function than a class, basically meaning an ship performing escort and protection duty.
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According to Okuda(Michael), who has written a few pubs on such topics, The Defiant was a constitution class."The Constitution-class starships, which were also known as Starship-class1 or Class I Heavy Cruisers, were the premier front-line Starfleet vessels in the latter half of the 23rd century"
We all know (hopefully) that the defiant was an experimental design, where the power of a much larger ship was crammed into a smaller, more agile ship frame.The fact that it was developed as a heavy cruiser is NOT reflected in game (would be OP). One could even call it a Battle Cruiser by stretching that to include the specific purpose it was intended to fill, even if calling it the exception to the general rule. The actual size of the ship ranges from 50m to 170m based on canon data points.
I'd say that this ship (and a few others) could throw a wrench in the "size" rating as a standard shiip measuring tool argument, since it (starship evolution)can be assumed that Starfleet is always experimenting with new ship/size/mission combinations that perform specific missions not constrained solely by the size of the ship being tasked. The addition of hybrid ship types (Dyson pack and any other 3 ship pack) and the accompanying universal consoles is my example in game.
Remember logging into the beta and your frame rate would drop to near zero, even with high-end discrete graphics?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Are you claiming that I am arguing "size = measuring tool"?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Wha?
Wha?
Sorry, you had me confused there. I remember the forums regularly crying in up roar on a regular basis. The Klingons used to be the best faction period in PvP. Science ships were way out of balance using the proper powers.
Oh yeah, and content drought.
"beautiful balance" wtf? It was alright but it wasn't beautiful and this game was never quite as good as it has been since LoR release. Sorry.
I may take issue with gambling boxes and the whole concept that I can't pay just 15 a month and get a solid game for the price, but there's a lot that PWE/Cryptic has done that's vastly superior in terms of gameplay, performance, and content compared to the days when Atari was starving the company for money.
Remember when you'd beam to a planet and be surprised to find that your starship beamed down and not your captain?
Or how about those fun times when you'd fall through a map and contact support... and they'd not care.
cryptic before it became PWE in 2011, they created it but its woefully inaccurate to a number of ship classes or their true status.
examples would be the akira class, its a heavy cruiser however cryptic had it turned into a super maneuverable escort which just looks absurd most of the time.
the galaxy class cruiser is built primarily for exploration which means a lot of science apparatus and some engineering in the background, but from time to time there is a tactical aspect.
keldon class is a warship, but again cryptic got their fangs into it and turned it into a science cruiser.
but its apart of a larger issue though, same with your simplification, classifying the defiant as small, doesnt that mean its useless? the defiant is a beast under the worst of conditions. its completely inaccurate.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
been there, done that :P.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
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I won this thread !
Raptors are more or less escorts? I lumped them together but I suppose one more type can be put in if you prefer.
Or when somehow a bunch of KDF players ended up on ESD and massacred all the NPCs including Quinn, good times.
The Constitution and Enterprise class starships are Heavy Cruiser.
The Mirandra class starship (like the Reliant) is a light Cruiser.
The Galaxy class starship is a Exploration / Heavy Cruiser.
The USS Excelsior was classified as a Battleship when it was launched; it was significantly larger than the Enterprise-A. That means the Enterprise-B was a Battleship, the only one which was not classified as a Heavy Cruiser.
The Defiant was classified as an Escort when it was 1st introduced in DS9. However, the term "escort" has two different meaning for the series and Star Trek Online. The Defiant was referred to as a wolf in sheep's clothing meaning the writer used the traditional naval definition of "escort" which is a small, lightly armed vessel. Examples would be the Destroyer Escort who's primary mission in WWII was to hunt down submarines or service as escort ships for "regular" Destroyers which were larger, faster and better armed than the escort versions. In STO, Escort is a generic term they decided to use for the so called "holy trinity" TRIBBLE.
Umm, not sure where you got that idea that the Defiant was lightly armed. It is a bunch of guns strapped to engines, and has enough fire power to blow away a galaxy class starship easily. They even state in the episode where it is introduced that it was actually a warship and was only called an escort because Starfleet refuses to admit it is a military.
No where does it say ANYTHING about the Excelsior being called a battleship, and actually it is never technically classified anywhere. Also, maybe you should know about the show you are talking about before typing, because one of the major things with starfleet is that they refuse to admit there is anything military about them, let alone admitting something is a battleship in ANY way.
Please, actually know about the ships you are talking about, because you and people like the OP seem to have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the ships of Star Trek. In terms of the player ships, STO has actually done a decent job at correctly classifying what each canon ship is.