test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

No more tt/st/et shared coldown!!

1356712

Comments

  • rudiefix1rudiefix1 Member Posts: 420
    edited March 2014
    I can see the pro's and con's here.


    yes, AtoB boats will get even more stronger
    yes, a nerf to offensive sci abilities because of the cleanses
    yes, heal boats will get better.
    yes, equiping more teams will result in loss of other offense/defense abilities, making that another opening for a kill

    My problem is that without any cooldown, everyone can have a massive shield AND hull heal on demand, and even autodistro shields. People can even just bind them on spacebar, when doffed, every 15 seconds.
    People don't have to think and time anymore, with these new oh TRIBBLE buttons which aside to heals also give cleanse for every ability. They dont need to make choices between teams anymore. Timing and choice, thats how it should be. Therefore I would rather see still a small global team cooldown of, for example, 5 or 10 seconds. That way equiping more teams is can be beneficial, but still needing timing and attention.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    @rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
    @rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
    @rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
  • arcjetarcjet Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    twam wrote: »
    Keybind ST2/3 and ET2/3 to one key -> shareable mini-Miracle Worker on 30 sec cooldown. Add Aux2Sif for extra giggles.

    As if. AS IF.
    Come on, how many people would/will actually use that, and how many ships actually provide the stations?
    You know, healing doesn't kill opponents, so it's damn hard to actually win by overhealing.

    Seriously, Aux2Bat probably needs some rebalancing, but apart from that, people seem to forget that they have to give up other skills and doffs, and their precious dps, in order to utilize all the new uber team goodness.

    At least the prospect of this change has brought some fresh wind into the PvP debate. Or should I say.. scared the chicken sh#tless?

    rudiefix1 wrote: »
    People don't have to think and time anymore (..)
    I disagree. 15 seconds is a lot of time, and these heals don't provide a HoT, nor reistances. They do require timing.
    rudiefix1 wrote: »
    They dont need to make choices between teams anymore.
    Was there a choice to begin with? Most people run double-TT and have it on keybind. What kind of choice is that? And dedicated healers? They already do have the heals and they already do heal very well. I don't think gameplay will change for them in any significant way. If at all, they will have more options now.
    rudiefix1 wrote: »
    Timing and choice, thats how it should be.
    Well it isn't like that atm. So could just as well change it.
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2014

    I have a strong suspicion this is going to turn out very badly for PvP overall.


    Agree, the problem is that most in the PVP community are thinking how their buils are going to improve with this change but are going to realise that it was a bad thing for PVP in a month when the only way to play is going to be 2 immortal cruisers and 3 one shooter vapers preying for a coordinated critical on the 2 immortal cruisers.

    Yes, your jemhadar is going to be really hard to kill, also your (insert ship name) but you are not going to kill anyone who know to play a bit. Think about it before claiming that this was a good change.

    How anyone is going to kill 2 of this http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tholiangod3_0 or their team mates? Sci team III and Eng Team III is like a miracle working every 15 seconds (with the teams doffs). Imagine a team Miracle Worker every 15 second before thinking that this change was good.

    Sorry for bad english.
    __________________________________________________

    Division Hispana
    www.divisionhispana.com
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited March 2014
    How anyone is going to kill 2 of this http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tholiangod3_0 or their team mates? Sci team III and Eng Team III is like a miracle working every 15 seconds (with the teams doffs). Imagine a team Miracle Worker every 15 second before thinking that this change was good.

    vape or faw or vape or faw or vape faw or vape faw or vape faw or vape ..notice the pattern.If that was not clear que up for arena and you will see it with your own eyes :rolleyes:

    oh and the game is not broken lol
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    All the Sci PvPers I know are fuming mad, lucho, newromulan, just to name a few. The so called "I sometimes play Sci" crowd such as yourself doesn't count, just as someone who was claiming that Sensor Analysis was useless in OPvP today, until he was shown how to actually use it.

    Sensor analysis is fine as long as you can retain the lock which only happens in PvE. In PvP, that Romulan T4 passive combined with the black goo, cloaks, and confuse abilities really kills it unless your target is busy with other things.

    Back to the subject at hand, the whole sci debuff cleanse every 15 seconds will make healer boats completely invincible. They are a pain to kill as-is right now, adding this to their toolbox is just insane.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    arcjet wrote: »
    As if. AS IF.
    Come on, how many people would/will actually use that, and how many ships actually provide the stations?
    You know, healing doesn't kill opponents, so it's damn hard to actually win by overhealing.

    Seriously, Aux2Bat probably needs some rebalancing, but apart from that, people seem to forget that they have to give up other skills and doffs, and their precious dps, in order to utilize all the new uber team goodness.

    At least the prospect of this change has brought some fresh wind into the PvP debate. Or should I say.. scared the chicken sh#tless?



    I disagree. 15 seconds is a lot of time, and these heals don't provide a HoT, nor reistances. They do require timing.

    Was there a choice to begin with? Most people run double-TT and have it on keybind. What kind of choice is that? And dedicated healers? They already do have the heals and they already do heal very well. I don't think gameplay will change for them in any significant way. If at all, they will have more options now.

    Well it isn't like that atm. So could just as well change it.

    An oasis of sense in the desert of madness...
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I love this forum! last month it was "has dps gotten out of hand" and forum is flooded with complaints about dps being too high.

    Now it is "healing it too strong".

    Maybe, just maybe, dps vs healing will be closer to balanced now ...

    The 'problem' of nearly unkillable players is no worse than the 'problem' of 1 shot kill dps characters. I am not saying these are not problems, just that one is no worse than the other. But what happens when they meet in pvp? That is the question...
  • atlantraatlantra Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »

    Back to the subject at hand, the whole sci debuff cleanse every 15 seconds will make healer boats completely invincible. They are a pain to kill as-is right now, adding this to their toolbox is just insane.

    ^^^ Hear that Cryptic? "Completely invincible." Heck I'm near that now and no Aux to battery.;)
    The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited March 2014
    noroblad wrote: »
    The 'problem' of nearly unkillable players is no worse than the 'problem' of 1 shot kill dps characters. I am not saying these are not problems, just that one is no worse than the other. But what happens when they meet in pvp? That is the question...


    there is no problem with unkillable ships.You get the problem when those ships can do damage.Aslong those unkillable ships do no damage there should be no problem...some prefer dps and other prefer to float around being unkillable.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    there is no problem with unkillable ships.You get the problem when those ships can do damage.Aslong those unkillable ships do no damage there should be no problem...some prefer dps and other prefer to float around being unkillable.

    But then you get the unkillable ship keeping the mega DPS ship alive through crossheals and your whole logic breaks down.

    This is very very bad for PvP.

    It already happens as it is, 3 healers/tanks, 2 vapers. The vapers synch their attacks to ensure death of their target. The 3 tanks just circle jerk in between the vapers CDs. If the vapers even get tickled, a few crossheals on them makes sure they escape with their skin intact.


    it is already nearly impossible to beat this group without a specific strategy (either snoop the vapers or overcome the defense of the tanks somehow). This move is going to remove option B.

    Also keep in mind that if a vaper is carrying all three teams they will be able to stop any science skills keeping them out of stealth long enough to coordinate a kill. This means the effectiveness of option A is going to be even further diminished than Kaleel even caused.

    So now we are going to see way more of the 3heal/2vape teams. Which is very very bad for PvP. If you think FAW is a real issue, you havent seen the new fad in the queues and premades lately.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    The funny thing is I don't think players have played games with the alternative, where you can only slowly grind down to down to powder, heals are virtually meaningless and stacked resistances and HP mean that fights are all but determined by looking at ship stat spreadsheets.

    It could use a bit of tweaking to a few powers but the basic model is very dynamic, unpredictable requires more attention than the HP grind and cover mechanics that force people to not engage and run more often than fight.
  • cerritourugcerritourug Member Posts: 1,376 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    But then you get the unkillable ship keeping the mega DPS ship alive through crossheals and your whole logic breaks down.

    This is very very bad for PvP.


    Bingo.. I have no problem with unkillable healers, my problem is when the hole team becomes unkillable unless you use a Vaper (or 2).
    __________________________________________________

    Division Hispana
    www.divisionhispana.com
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm looking at my reculse build and figuring out where the hell I could but one of these new super OP abilities.

    ATM it's

    TT

    Polarise Hull

    EPTS RSP Extends II AtSif III
    EPTS Extends I AtSif II

    Hazards Hazards TSS

    If you believe dropping a Hazards for a sci team or polarise hull is a good idea, your high and drunk.

    Either way you look at it, my heal boat will be dropping resists or something like an RSP to accommodate flash heals, even in the healers there is opportunity cost, it's 100% worse in everything else that isn't a cruiser with too many engineering bridge officers.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I'm looking at my reculse build and figuring out where the hell I could but one of these new super OP abilities.

    ATM it's

    TT

    Polarise Hull

    EPTS RSP Extends II AtSif III
    EPTS Extends I AtSif II

    Hazards Hazards TSS

    If you believe dropping a Hazards for a sci team or polarise hull is a good idea, your high and drunk.

    Either way you look at it, my heal boat will be dropping resists or something like an RSP to accommodate flash heals, even in the healers there is opportunity cost, it's 100% worse in everything else that isn't a cruiser with too many engineering bridge officers.

    Actually because of the global CDs on both A2SIF and HE, youre better off with just one copy of each.


    On a recluse:

    TT

    PH1 (or ST1)

    EPTS1 RSP1 Ex2 A2SIF3

    EPTS1 RSP1 ET3 (or EPTS1 ET2 Ex2)

    HE1/TSS2/ST3 (or ST1/HE2/TSS3)

    Using the doffs that proc the reduced CD on TSS (i think is the one), you will have a nearly immortal shield tank on this alone. The ET3/2 and ST3/1 will be available every 15 or 30 seconds undoffed, with the A2SIF available every 15 seconds. So that is basically 30-40k worth of hullheal just in those two skills every 30 seconds + hardened shields AND distributed shields.

    You need to check into doffs to really realize how powerful you can make a recluse. Use an engineer captain and it becomes absolutely impossible to kill even by a vaper if you have good reflexes and a good sense of timings.

    I play a PvP healer, I know how it will go, and I am not exactly looking forward to my recluse being totally immortal, but it will be. It all depends on which doff combination you plan to use as to how many vapers its gonna take to kill you. Id guess three at minimum for a really strongly specced engineering one after this change.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited March 2014
    But then you get the unkillable ship keeping the mega DPS ship alive through crossheals and your whole logic breaks down.

    No ,your logic breaks down because you don;t make a difference between healer and zombie ship.

    You get a dps ship ,a healer ship and a zombie like unkillable but with zero dps or heals (you can't cast a2dam or ph).There is a difference between a healer (which will have/use powers that can be used on team mates ) vs a ship that is designed to be a floating unkillable ship.

    Also the more heals (as in heals you can cast) you put on a ship the more fragile that ship gets.You get 2 extends not 2 rsp ,or get 2 HE not 1 HE and 1PH.

    There is no problem if the game allows ships to be unkillable if that ship can't heal or kill.There is no problem if a ship can heal really well but is squishy or has zero dps .Some like damage and some like healing.


    P.S.Ramming speed kills everything...Ive yet to find something that can resist it :P
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    No ,your logic breaks down because you don;t make a difference between healer and zombie ship.

    You get a dps ship ,a healer ship and a zombie like unkillable but with zero dps or heals (you can't cast a2dam or ph).There is a difference between a healer (which will have/use powers that can be used on team mates ) vs a ship that is designed to be a floating unkillable ship.

    Also the more heals (as in heals you can cast) you put on a ship the more fragile that ship gets.You get 2 extends not 2 rsp ,or get 2 HE not 1 HE and 1PH.

    There is no problem if the game allows ships to be unkillable if that ship can't heal or kill.There is no problem if a ship can heal really well but is squishy or has zero dps .Some like damage and some like healing.


    P.S.Ramming speed kills everything...Ive yet to find something that can resist it :P

    Im talking about a zombie healer. The Engineering Recluse carrier that heals their teammates and is virtually impossible to kill already if played properly. It takes a lot to kill mine (a coordinated multiple player/profession effort) and I just started doing it last month.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It won't be balanced at all, except on one side of the scales will be unkillable cruisers and on the other side of the scales will be 31% CrtH Rommy Vapers. The Cruisers will bfaw everything else into oblivion. Meanwhile the scientists are hanging out on Drozana playing Dabo as they are no longer required!

    The scientists are in the cruisers/carriers or escorts. Same as now, often enough.

    But who are the vapers killing? Each other or the "unkillable cruisers"?

    Either unkillable is a gross exaggeration or the vapers are going to be left behind by this in favor of more durable / defensive builds.

    As for teams supporting each other, that is already the case, and it is strong.

    Best I can tell, as long as "unkillable" is just an exaggeration (which it probably is) things will sort out and be fine -- strategies will change, people adapt, and pvp gets a needed "lets do something else now" change. If they really cannot be killed, pvp becomes a standoff and they will have to go back to the drawing board on it.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It won't be balanced at all, except on one side of the scales will be unkillable cruisers and on the other side of the scales will be 31% CrtH Rommy Vapers. The Cruisers will bfaw everything else into oblivion. Meanwhile the scientists are hanging out on Drozana playing Dabo as they are no longer required!

    actually a vaper dosn't have that hight crit rate. Vape builds are based on critical damage, no critical chance
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • arcjetarcjet Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I hope I'm not the only one on this.

    This is a good change. lol

    I'm not joking either.
    Nope, you're not the only one.
    (A lot of awesome level-headed stuff)

    I agree.
    This is a good change. People are acting as if everyone would now magically get some additional free boff and doff slots to use all three teams all the time. That will not be the case.

    Indeed the only real problem is Aux2Bat.
    But, instead of nerfing Tech DOFFs, have you thought about the option of increasing the cooldown on Aux2Bat?
    When thinking about what to do with that skill, both nerfing the tech doffs or not letting them stack appeared to be somewhat flawed. Not long ago I read a statement of someone claiming that three green tech doffs would work just fine with double A2B, due to activation lag or something. So nerfing them wouldn't even guarantee a fix, while unstacking them would TRIBBLE around with people's investment and actually either make the combo useless or even easier to set up.
    So it occured to me that the problem with A2B might actually be the frequency. If it wouldn't reduce CDs every 10s, it would have a lot less impact, especially on low CD skills *cough* TT, ST, EN *cough*.
    Imho it should have a duplicate cooldown of 30sec. That would make it a lot more timing critical. If that proves to be too much, try 20s. 10s is just too short.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think the better move instead of changing cool downs on a2b would be to fix its global.

    When the tech doffs where dreamed up Aux to Bat was on the same global system as EPTx... and with that it was balanced. -30% to ALL you cool downs was fine because you where really limited to one copy of A2B... as with one copy you could keep say EPTS up 100% of the time and ping pong your A2B.

    Then for some unknown crazy reason Bort decided he was going to move A2B OFF of that global.

    That is when all the issues came up...cause now there was nothing stopping people form running 2 copies... and keeping EPTS + EPTW/E/A up 100% as well.

    THAT is the real issue...

    Tech doffs where never designed to be working with A2B on its very own global. They where balanced and still very powerful when A2B was a Emergency Power sub system skill.

    As it is now it is just broken.

    My fix for it would be to just move it back to its proper global.

    I think the issue with just say changing a2b to a 60s cool down... is it would just encourage people even more to just run 2 copies of it.

    I think what needs to happen is for it to simply handicap people running it all to 1 copy of Eptx up at all times... and to kill the dual a2b builds completely by remvoing the ability to run other EPTX at all. (the second copy I mean. So you can choose to cool down your skills + keep one EPTx up 100% of the time as it worked when the doffs came out)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • damix4damix4 Member Posts: 609 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    scurry5 wrote: »
    "...And any duration-based Sci debuffer is going to have quite a bit more trouble now"

    Could it be that they prepared new doff for next lockbox? - specific or all sci powers that are immune to ST
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    damix4 wrote: »
    Could it be that they prepared new doff for next lockbox? - specific or all sci powers that are immune to ST

    Lets hope not we are already at a place where really if this game is going to survive at all they are going to have to make a hard choice... and nerf a handful of overpowered doffs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    edalgo wrote: »
    This is huge. Healers before would have to worry about throwing out a ST or ET and possibly being quickly switched to bc their TT is on CD. Even off healers/gankers or DPSers just cross healing.

    Now throw it! No worries! If you get targeted TT will be there. Or vice versa you can throw your TT if you're in a science ship with a high shield mod bc ST will be there.

    Matches between 2 heal heavy teams could take over an hour now. Idk what kind of times we're looking at going forward since every premade has AT LEAST 2 people healing

    I don't see this effecting premade times at all... I could be wrong though.

    Healers where already getting spare tec teams from there escorts. If teams where really not already doing that then they are so terrible no change would effect there quality of play. ;)

    Healers aren't going to all of a sudden grow 2 more doff spaces to start cycling another Team ability at global... and no one is dedicating 2 boff slots to a third team.

    The only thing this does is mean they have a tac team instead of having to call for one.

    I think who this WILL effect is people in the puggin ques. I can for sure see pug matches lasting longer as people in cruisers may in fact throw the odd heal now, instead of holding everything until its 2 late cause there worried mini max might decloak at any second. lol

    I just don't see how this really effects a proper premade much. Perhaps the escort players have a spare science team for another sub nuke clear... but the stupid warp core doff does that better... and lets them keep the extra tractor break of PH or some more shield resist from TSS1.. when I play my healer I would likely rather they had the PH or TSS1 then the extra nuke clear in a game where that is already well covered.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • donrahdonrah Member Posts: 348
    edited March 2014
    Perhaps those that are unhappy with this change should organize PvP matches with zero boffs, doffs, and uni consoles? You can't cry OP if there are no powers allowed. In fact, with such powers removed, each class is pretty well balanced. It could be called HPvP (Handicapped PvP). No matter what Cryptic does to abilities, you can always choose to play with people that agree to go without them.
    Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Alrighty the idea that the quanity of healing will go threw the roof is getting on my nerves. Number time!

    (These values are all from the same toon around 130ish healing skill)

    Science Team 1: 2000 to each facing 30 second cooldown = 67 heal/sec per facing
    TSS 1 @ 46 AUX: 434 flat heal, 124 for 15 sec /w 45 sec cooldown = 51 heal/sec per facing

    So yeah sci team is a slighty stronger heal at very low AUX but lacks the resistance boost which even at low AUX would have TSS giving more effective heal.

    ET 2: 8200 hull heal 30 second cooldown = 274 heal/sec
    Aux2Strut 1 @ 46 AUX: 2650 hull heal + 18.4 res 15 sec cooldown = 177 heal/sec

    Now here ET does have a significant lead and double stacks more effectively. However once again that resistance from A2Strut will likely provide just as much effective heal.

    First off these numbers are from extremely low AUX power. Secondly from my understanding the heals from the teams are supposed to be effected by crew alive % (like the tac team skill boost) but currently are not and I'm unsure if that is intended or a bug.

    The amount of survival in the game is not going to change by any significant amount from this change. However the ability to run both Sci team and TT will make science debuffs much easier to clear, that is a valid point. Additionally ET will provide an additional ensign hull heal option for those ships that have few other options for direct hull heals. Finally the quantity of viable doff options has gone up a bit. The -weapon power diplomat price is gonna spike I bets. The RLS that decreases shield heal cooldowns might also become a bit more desireable but I'm unsure what all abilities it effects.

    The big winners here are ensign engineers and the big losers are sci debuffers that weren't already cleared by HE. Oh and possibly those Dyson Sci consoles but I doubt it.
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • edited March 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I am (luckily) only a free-time pvper, so I can laugh hard about this. It effectivly nerfs the offensive Sci and gives the healer-Sci massively more heal. Even the nonhealing a2b-cruisers just got a heavy healincrease.
    So the kills must be either perfectly timed or you must vape the target instantly. Good that cryptic implemented a whole Race and Fleet of vapers :D
Sign In or Register to comment.