You've wasted your time writing that blog. Or maybe not,- maybe all the members of sto will join the pvp queues so that a team of self proclaimed heros like yourself can roflstomp a team of pugs and all yell gg ! thanks for playing.
Please don't reply to my post with some nonsense about teamwork or tactics Ive played in pvp long enough to know that premades indulge in blowing up pugs and acting the hero(why would they be queuing on public otherwise) , been there done that but Im proud to say I no longer do it. Organized premade pvp should be arranged between fleets/groups of players on the pvp channel(or others),- NOT on the public queues
oh and who came up with shuttle pvp ? which one of you devs thought that was a good idea ?
You've wasted your time writing that blog. Or maybe not,- maybe all the members of sto will join the pvp queues so that a team of self proclaimed heros like yourself can roflstomp a team of pugs and all yell gg ! thanks for playing.
Please don't reply to my post with some nonsense about teamwork or tactics Ive played in pvp long enough to know that premades indulge in blowing up pugs and acting the hero(why would they be queuing on public otherwise) , been there done that but Im proud to say I no longer do it. Organized premade pvp should be arranged between fleets/groups of players on the pvp channel(or others),- NOT on the public queues
oh and who came up with shuttle pvp ? which one of you devs thought that was a good idea ?
<rant over>
Not sure you read Nazs blog that closely.
Come and join us in the TD channel / Team speak. Where we do not que at all. Yes the ques are not very well designed and Cryptic has no back end algorithms balancing matches. (that we hope they will implement at some point).
We don't run premades in TD... we create matches to be as balanced as we possibly can. Anyone that comes can start a match... everyone is welcome to use some of the tools that community members have created to do that. (or balanced them completely on there own by hand). The point is we all come to fight... and try to ensure EVERYONE has a great time. Close well balanced matches are fun for everyone involved.
your all far to comfortable with your positions of swearing off pvp forever because its just to broken or premades or whatever excuse is your favorite. the blog is mainly about a player organized game mode that addresses all the grievances you have. this is the last pvp thread those tired excuses have any validity. step out of your comfort zone and give it a shot, at the very least you will encounter helpful people that can pass on information that wont only benefit your pvp experience, but any content you play in game.
Fair enough, you or the original poster of this thread may be descent enough (got a bit carried away with accusing him/her) not to do it (for that I apologize), but the fact remains a lot of teams do.
As you rightly pointed out its down to this aspect of the game being poorly designed, hence my frustration when guest blogs appear trying to promote an area of the game which needs a drastic revamp. Many vets and new players alike have been yelling this for well.... forever. But it seems that someone is illiterate in the sto dev team? any dev care to explain ?
Fair enough, you or the original poster of this thread may be descent enough (got a bit carried away with accusing him/her) not to do it (for that I apologize), but the fact remains a lot of teams do.
As you rightly pointed out its down to this aspect of the game being poorly designed, hence my frustration when guest blogs appear trying to promote an area of the game which needs a drastic revamp. Many vets and new players alike have been yelling this for well.... forever. But it seems that someone is illiterate in the sto dev team? any dev care to explain ?
I know I'm not a dev... but I'll respond with my thoughts.
There are Devs that do like PvP in STO. I know because I have Pew pewed enough with them to know they enjoy PvP. The issue is the people that control where Cryptic spends its resources are not convinced that if they build it we will come.
TD wasn't started so we could show the devs how much we want more from PvP... however. It does showcase that desire for them. The fact that they have asked one of us to write a guest blog about a player organized effort to forward PvP in STO... does demonstrate that there is some PvP support at Cryptic.
I believe that the more people we get out enjoying PvP with us in TD or in the ques... will help them make a case with in Cryptic to improve the game type in general.
I think we need to convince them that PvP in this game could grow and attract players... and there by attract them revenue. I know that is the case... like many other people I know. I have only stuck with the game as long as I have because I know the base mechanics of this game could build the best PvP game in the industry. I havn't played another PvP game that sucked me in as much as this one has... and that is with out a huge list of things that other games PvP have going for them.
Broken PvP, Payer vs. Payer as I like to call them (and that is not a typo), is merely a symptom of a considerably unfurnished endgame content system. It's not broken mind you; it works fine & folks are able to get into games and grab their rewards after said match, but I have observed ever since 2012 that Cryptic has been adding and expanding over an obsolete concept of how end content should be handled. By that very extension, PvP is still using the old random pug matchmaking que that hasn't seen a shakeup in what seems forever. There just seems to be no balance in how pugs are randomly matched up against each other: either they find themselves at the bottom or top of the food chain, barely any mention of the inbetween. Now throw in the high rollers with elite gear, you get a very eschewed distribution where most pugs finds themselves at bottom most of the time. None of them would find it fun.
What PvP balance needs is a gear (hidden/shown) rating score that would allow the que system to match pugs closely to each other in similarities to their respective gear score. Neverwinter does this already, why shouldn't STO do it as well?
your all far to comfortable with your positions of swearing off pvp forever because its just to broken or premades or whatever excuse is your favorite.
My personal favorite is that's dull as ditchwater, and largely pointless.
One of those you can fix, and one you can't.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Why is it that the same handful rage across the forums throwing tantrums about playing PvP anytime a fellow player writes a guest blog? This blog was great and offers people the opportunity to see PvP through a different light and try it out. Yes Cryptic should have addressed the usefulness of PvP along time ago as it would make use out of all the power creep that is not necessary for PvE play. PvE play anymore is about squashing you're npc in 60 seconds instead of 15 minutes.
I for one like the challenges of PvP from time to time. What I don't like is that every time someone constructive takes the effort to put together a sound option for folks to try PvP the same half dozen or so come crawling in to to trash it. If it is not your cup of tea then why are you even reading the blog? You are not offering solutions or other viable options as an alternative but just trashing the work and effort that others have put in to make STO a better place for all. I have never used this channel for PvP, but now that I know of it I might go ahead and try it, sure beats PuG'ing it.
If you want to complain, complain to Cryptic for a pi$$ poor queue system. Don't blame players who build quality builds or guest bloggers who provide alternatives to the current archaic system we use.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
your all far to comfortable with your positions of swearing off pvp forever because its just to broken or premades or whatever excuse is your favorite. the blog is mainly about a player organized game mode that addresses all the grievances you have. this is the last pvp thread those tired excuses have any validity. step out of your comfort zone and give it a shot, at the very least you will encounter helpful people that can pass on information that wont only benefit your pvp experience, but any content you play in game.
Umm, no... As nice as this bit of organization sounds, it's all player maintained and thereby relying on the merit of others. If I wanted to join some player group, I'd join an RP fleet, but neither is going to happen. Players are allowed to have legitimate gripes with the current state of PVP, just like you're allowed to enjoy PVP as it stands.
Does Tyler Durden ban Romulans from their queuing system?
All the PvP proponents on here can be found often lamenting the current state of PvP on that section of the forums. With personal feelings like those, aren't you all being somewhat dishonest when attempting to sell PvP to others?
These questions aren't meant to troll, they're genuine questions. I have recently returned to PvPing in Kerrat out of boredom and do have an overall good time (once I learned to accept the vape). But I refuse to join the queues, ever, for reasons that have already been stated.
Umm, no... As nice as this bit of organization sounds, it's all player maintained and thereby relying on the merit of others. If I wanted to join some player group, I'd join an RP fleet, but neither is going to happen. Players are allowed to have legitimate gripes with the current state of PVP, just like you're allowed to enjoy PVP as it stands.
This group has no leaders... everyone and anyone is welcome to start matches. (and they do). The channel is free to all and is 100% public. The team speak is provided by a kind individual who simply wanted to provide something for others enjoying the game. The Mancom teaming tool isn't required to start matches, it again is just something one a community member threw together in his own time, to help others enjoy the game a little bit more.
You are not required to join anything to come and enjoy some TD matches. Everyone is welcome to come on in and play. You can stay for one match, for hours... return once a month every day or never again. The point is come out and have a good time with PvP. The issues most new players have don't exist in TD matches... you may have fun and make a few friends.
Of course you don't have to do anything. If you have a good time with STOs PvE... and you would rather RP to enjoy your trek... have at it. Whatever it is that floats your boat right.
Does Tyler Durden ban Romulans from their queuing system?
All the PvP proponents on here can be found often lamenting the current state of PvP on that section of the forums. With personal feelings like those, aren't you all being somewhat dishonest when attempting to sell PvP to others?
These questions aren't meant to troll, they're genuine questions. I have recently returned to PvPing in Kerrat out of boredom and do have an overall good time (once I learned to accept the vape). But I refuse to join the queues, ever, for reasons that have already been stated.
Nothing specificly is banned... there are no over arching rules for TD. If you want to start a match that doesn't involve romulan toons by all means have at it. If you have 9 other people in TD channel or TS that are willing to start that match I'm sure you will all have a good time. Many people that start matches will ask that people don't bring X or Y... that the majority of people playing in the match find unfun.
Honestly romulans and consoles and all the stuff we complain about have little impact on TD.... because we balance the teams before we start.
Yes some games with have 3-4 romulans playing... if they are all playing the Romulan vape style build that is ok... we balance them out 2 per side... and we make sure if there are a couple engi healers playing they end up one per team... if we have 3-4 science players again we put a couple on either side.
Point being when you balance the sides out so that no one side has 5 guys running one style... and the teams are as balanced as we can make them... very often you end up with scores like 15-14 or close to.
The stuff that we find over powered and badly designed is often not so bad when it isn't being cranked up to 11 by a premade.
Also people that come to TD... will make friends... and they will have a good time. Guess what happens... you run into fewer people loading 5 uni consoles... or doing some of the things that people will say is "cheesy".
I have found that in general if you take the people that run that type of stuff... and force them to TALK to there opponents... and perhaps face the same type of build for a match or two.. they often change to builds that everyone finds more fun.
It is much harder to build complete troll builds when you are playing against people you like and respect.
It might be shocking to some, but it takes a player initiative like TD to create fun matches. The more people are in the know about it the better. How cryptic mentally processes the fact that it has driven players to this point, so that they have fun while playing their game I don't know. If you are reading this chances are you should check out TD. Log on no Dino's with lazers and *gasp* fun for all.
A self-maintained world located in neutral territory. The year is 2014. TD is our last best hope for pew in STO.
@ antonio the next vet using the word "potential" when it comes to STO pvp shall be forced to fly a gal-x held by tractor spam facing nothing but scimtards for 8.5 seasons, a skill tree revamp, an economy revamp, one expansion and 666 nights.
As soundtrack i nominate Jorf performing a dramatic reading of mickey's collected chat rants in reverse.
STO pvp is fun other then it's been ruined by the pvp community. Going into the q and fighting the same pre mades and being stomped by them is zero fun. That's what chases people away from pvp and what has kept the pvp population small.
I wish Cryptic would quit wasting time with these blogs when they refuse to address the single biggest problem with pvp. The teams stomping pugs needs to stop if you want to grow pvp. Till that happens it's just going to be what it is. Played by few, enjoyed by few.
I myself am not going to use a channel like Tyler Durden or any other pvp channel when it's got a large population of the very players that have spent so much time ruining the q. Glad you all found a solution to help you enjoy pvp, it's too bad many of you insist on pre making teams and ruining it for others.
@ antonio the next vet using the word "potential" when it comes to STO pvp shall be forced to fly a gal-x held by tractor spam facing nothing but scimtards for 8.5 seasons, a skill tree revamp, an economy revamp, one expansion and 666 nights.
As soundtrack i nominate Jorf performing a dramatic reading of mickey's collected chat rants in reverse.[/COLOR]
I was laughing... and then I got to your last line... and almost had an accident.
STO pvp is fun other then it's been ruined by the pvp community. Going into the q and fighting the same pre mades and being stomped by them is zero fun. That's what chases people away from pvp and what has kept the pvp population small.
I wish Cryptic would quit wasting time with these blogs when they refuse to address the single biggest problem with pvp. The teams stomping pugs needs to stop if you want to grow pvp. Till that happens it's just going to be what it is. Played by few, enjoyed by few.
I myself am not going to use a channel like Tyler Durden or any other pvp channel when it's got a large population of the very players that have spent so much time ruining the q. Glad you all found a solution to help you enjoy pvp, it's too bad many of you insist on pre making teams and ruining it for others.
There are not premades in TD... I think you have missed the point of TD. Running pug stomping 15-0 teams in the que... is unfun for everyone playing. The stomped and stompers. Join us in TD Team speak... come and meet the evil premade players... and the not as evil pug players. Everyone that playis in TD matches do it as individials.
Everyone is welcome in TD... we don't form teams to go forth and rule the ques... we form teams to duke it out with each other and have a good time. You are welcome to a spot on any of the TD teams playing... or to just hang out and talk about the state of the game. Point is your more then welcome.
STO pvp is fun other then it's been ruined by the pvp community. Going into the q and fighting the same pre mades and being stomped by them is zero fun. That's what chases people away from pvp and what has kept the pvp population small.
I wish Cryptic would quit wasting time with these blogs when they refuse to address the single biggest problem with pvp. The teams stomping pugs needs to stop if you want to grow pvp. Till that happens it's just going to be what it is. Played by few, enjoyed by few.
I myself am not going to use a channel like Tyler Durden or any other pvp channel when it's got a large population of the very players that have spent so much time ruining the q. Glad you all found a solution to help you enjoy pvp, it's too bad many of you insist on pre making teams and ruining it for others.
we, the pvpers and TD users feel the same way. it would be great if cryptic put some intelligence behind how pug teams are formed in game, but we players got tired of waiting and are doing it ourselves. and this blog is telling you that you dont have to be stuck in the crummy ques, there is an alternative that works.
we have bees stressing over and over again that you wont find premades in TD unless you want to face one, the teams are made as balanced as possible with a 14/15 score at the end being the goal, every time.
So I asked the first question, which incidentally was the only question you answered, as a way to determine what PvP proponents felt the problem was. As someone who looks at a system from the ground up, I feel the biggest problem is an innately more powerful mini faction. Additionally, STO PvP doesn't feel like Trek. Ships with a thousand crew zipping around like a starfighter is plainly absurd, yet the norm in PvP.
The problem you seem to be dealing with is just premades. To combat this, you made a pug service. Further, you seem to want to foster a better PvP community. Not a bad idea overall.
However, there are more problems than just premades and unfun builds. That's why I asked the second question. There is a general lack of balance in PvP. It is my opinion, that without a ground up rebuild, PvP will remain a joke. The latest cheese or OP mini-faction just makes it worse. Why try to sell the band-aid of Tyler Durden at all?
Forgive me, but all these guest blogs try to sell something broken to the masses. And the reason for the continuing evangelism escapes me entirely. There must be a motive I'm unaware of because it should be clear by now that the vast majority, and the devs generally, could care less about PvP. Yet here we are, again.
Edit: Let me state that I do enjoy PvP and I do think the motives of those behind TD are admirable.
I have been lurking the PvP forum for a while (and have posted a few times) and your posts are usually informative and constructive. I must say, though, that you make a real good argument for Tyler Durden in that blog.
I have to confess, I am a member of TOS Veteran's premade team. We usually use Tuesday nights to join up and hit the queues. Of the 6 or 7 matches we get, there is usually only one or two that end in a score of 15-14 and those are the matches we are looking for. We really hate "ROFLStomping" the other team. We also hate teams who use nothing but "Cheese" or "Clicky" consoles with "Vape" scimitars.
We DON'T use "clicky" consoles or "vape" builds (we do usually run two DPS'ers, but I wouldn't call them "Vape" builds). We do use team work and sci powers, though (Sub-Nuke, Grav Well, Sensor Scan). We also run two dedicated healers (myself being one of them) and one dedicated Sci/CC-style build. We try really hard not to be that premade team that ruins the queues. We do try really hard to win, though, using tactics and ship/skill builds. I love it when there is a close margin of victory, win or loose, THAT is what I love in a PvP match. There is nothing like the rush I get from a close well fought match.
All that being said, after reading your blog, I think on my next day off, you might see me in the teamspeak server or the TD chat channel. It sounds like it could be fun and I think I'll give it a try. I hope that your blog attracts others (both PvE'ers and other premade PvP'ers like myself) to give your channel a try.
There are not premades in TD... I think you have missed the point of TD. Running pug stomping 15-0 teams in the que... is unfun for everyone playing. The stomped and stompers. Join us in TD Team speak... come and meet the evil premade players... and the not as evil pug players. Everyone that playis in TD matches do it as individials.
Everyone is welcome in TD... we don't form teams to go forth and rule the ques... we form teams to duke it out with each other and have a good time. You are welcome to a spot on any of the TD teams playing... or to just hang out and talk about the state of the game. Point is your more then welcome.
I didn't miss the point at all. I think you missed what I said. I am not going to take part in something that is very much populated by players and fleets that are the very ones ruining the q.
If the running of pug stomping teams was so unfun, then it wouldn't be being done. It's done all the time and those doing it are doing it to stomp the pugs. People have discussed in organized pvp the fact they do it and they have discussed using broken things in a effort to prove how broken things are and to provide the worst possible game to those that they play against.
The q is where your going to get new players to start pvping. Organized pvp is not the place to start to try to get new players. It shouldn't be the starting point for a person to be able to try pvp.
The sad part about this is, STO has really fun pvp. It can be really enjoyable but it's been ruined by the q, which is ruined by the teams that chose to ruin it. These blogs and Cryptic's pushing of pvp is a waste of time until they choose to address the biggest reasons STO pvp is being rejected by the majority of players.
So I asked the first question, which incidentally was the only question you answered, as a way to determine what PvP proponents felt the problem was. As someone who looks at a system from the ground up, I feel the biggest problem is an innately more powerful mini faction. Additionally, STO PvP doesn't feel like Trek. Ships with a thousand crew zipping around like a starfighter is plainly absurd, yet the norm in PvP.
The problem you seem to be dealing with is just premades. To combat this, you made a pug service. Further, you seem to want to foster a better PvP community. Not a bad idea overall.
However, there are more problems than just premades and unfun builds. That's why I asked the second question. There is a general lack of balance in PvP. It is my opinion, that without a ground up rebuild, PvP will remain a joke. The latest cheese or OP mini-faction just makes it worse. Why try to sell the band-aid of Tyler Durden at all?
Forgive me, but all these guest blogs try to sell something broken to the masses. And the reason for the continuing evangelism escapes me entirely. There must be a motive I'm unaware of because it should be clear by now that the vast majority, and the devs generally, could care less about PvP. Yet here we are, again.
Edit: Let me state that I do enjoy PvP and I do think the motives of those behind TD are admirable.
I didn't dig deep into everything you posted as I just felt it more belonged in the PvP subforum. Btw it would be nice to see more of you guys that obviously like PvP (just not the PvP offered here) in that section. More ideas to move PvP forward are good... and Cryptic does read what we talk about in that section. Small changes have been made based on conversations that have teaken place there. I agree we all want much more profound change from Cryptic.
What i Think makes this Blog different from the previous ones (I honestly only remember one other guest blog that really touched on PvP) is that we are not boosting Cryptics system. We are talking about a player setup system with TD. A system where we do try our best to keep the stuff that keeps people out of the ques out of our games. We don't do the premade things.... and it isn't just some Pug Team forming channel either. You see we DO NOT enter the ques.... we talk to each other before the game. We hear what people are running... and then we balance a match when we have 10 people wanting to do one based on what everyone is running. The idea isn't to just put together some teams... the idea is to take 10 people and build the 2 most balanced teams we can... so that everyone has a good time. Yes lots of vet players love it... I enjoy shooting at my friends... and sometimes when the balance calls for it I shoot with them as well. New players love it as well... they get to play on a team... they get to play in a match that is likely going to be close. Some of them even take it as a great way to learn more about PvP... in the end Everyone I know that has tried it out has come away having liked it. A lot come back for more which is why TD has been growing.
I guess I am saying... Pop into the PvP subsection we have plenty of threads talking about what is wrong... and what needs to happen to fix it. Add your voice to existing ideas... or post some of your own. Conversation is great... fun in its own way... and I do hope Cryptic is listening. If enough of us state what we would like to see... there is only more likely that Cryptic will in fact make some changes... Then after you have gotten into that converstaion hit up the TD team speak and hang out with like minded people. Perhaps jump in for a game or two... and in the end share some Trek with some fellow Trekkers.
STO is a single player game, everyone knows that. Your captain is meant to be the only captain. You are the one saving the universe, not the other players. They are an unfortunate inconvenience but one the devs have to allow to keep raking in the dollahs. In fact, that's what this pvp scene is about also. Cryptic has to try and please as many players as possible, all the time, but only committing as much resource funds to any given area as is equal to the average number of people who populate that area.
So you see, since greater than half to three-quarters of the player population hates pvp and will never pvp, that other one-quarter has to be strung along with promises and blogs, giving them the false hope that their cause means something to the devs, and the other players...when in fact the entire segment of STO that is pvp could fall into a black hole, and no one would really notice, except the people who would be relieved that the thing is finally black balled.
I didn't miss the point at all. I think you missed what I said. I am not going to take part in something that is very much populated by players and fleets that are the very ones ruining the q.
If the running of pug stomping teams was so unfun, then it wouldn't be being done. It's done all the time and those doing it are doing it to stomp the pugs. People have discussed in organized pvp the fact they do it and they have discussed using broken things in a effort to prove how broken things are and to provide the worst possible game to those that they play against.
The q is where your going to get new players to start pvping. Organized pvp is not the place to start to try to get new players. It shouldn't be the starting point for a person to be able to try pvp.
The sad part about this is, STO has really fun pvp. It can be really enjoyable but it's been ruined by the q, which is ruined by the teams that chose to ruin it. These blogs and Cryptic's pushing of pvp is a waste of time until they choose to address the biggest reasons STO pvp is being rejected by the majority of players.
Well perhaps I have misunderstood you...
Let me say though that the people that are in TD all day are not the ones in the Ques all day.... I don't think its possible to be in 2 places at once. We don't have a real life manheim device.
Some people that enjoy TD yes at one time for sure they likely where the guys in the ques.
I can't speak for everyone just myself. I have not been in an actual premade in the ques in ages. Sure I have qued up the odd time with 1-2 friends. No denying that. I have also seen some of the teams out there in the ques.
Trust me the call to Join TD... isn't just a call to New and or Unfleeted players. It is 100% a call to those people as well. I know from experience that when you get those guys in a team speak with everyone else those fleet tags dissolve away. Truth is we are all pretty similer Trek lovers looking to have a good time in a Trek game. We all have more in common then not.
We agree with you about the state of the Que... read my SIG... skip the que... put your fleet tags aside... and come and enjoy the PvP. (Cause we all agree when PvP in STO is good it is very good)
As for Cryptic not boosting PvP... I will say what I am Sure Naz was feeling when he wrote this blog. TD isn't about Cryptic pushing PvP... its about the Players pushing it. We love PvP and we love it so much that we have stopped using Cryptics Ques... we have created a system where we can have better games and have more fun with more people. Naz was given an opportunity by Cryptic to promote TD... Yes he wrote it with the newer players in mind knowing it was going to the front page. People that have been around the PvP community for the last 3 or 4 months have heard myself and many others promoting TD already. The old guard "vet" types have all heard about TD... and yes many of them have been coming... and many of them have been running premades in the ques far less often. You won't find for instance My fleet Sad Pandas in the ques on the weekends often anymore... because most of us that are on are taking part in TD matches. Like Naz says in his blog somehow he managed an entire work day a few weekends ago worth of games. Those where not hours where he was part of any premade in any que anywhere. Pugs everywhere where rejoicing. I kid.
I didn't miss the point at all. I think you missed what I said. I am not going to take part in something that is very much populated by players and fleets that are the very ones ruining the q.
If the running of pug stomping teams was so unfun, then it wouldn't be being done. It's done all the time and those doing it are doing it to stomp the pugs. People have discussed in organized pvp the fact they do it and they have discussed using broken things in a effort to prove how broken things are and to provide the worst possible game to those that they play against.
The q is where your going to get new players to start pvping. Organized pvp is not the place to start to try to get new players. It shouldn't be the starting point for a person to be able to try pvp.
The sad part about this is, STO has really fun pvp. It can be really enjoyable but it's been ruined by the q, which is ruined by the teams that chose to ruin it. These blogs and Cryptic's pushing of pvp is a waste of time until they choose to address the biggest reasons STO pvp is being rejected by the majority of players.
the pugstomping teams dont get off on wiping out everyone on the ques, its extremely boring if the other team cant put up a fight. no one enjoys a 1 sided match, these arent bad people and they arent saying GG to be patronizing. thus, the TD channel was created
the pugstomping teams dont get off on wiping out everyone on the ques, its extremely boring if the other team cant put up a fight. no one enjoys a 1 sided match, these arent bad people and they arent saying GG to be patronizing. thus, the TD channel was created
Yes, thank you! Several of the people I play with on a regular basis will simply drop out for the night if we're rolling too many queues and can't find any premades to play.
And yes, I say GG in the way that kids high-five after youth sport. It's meant to acknowledge that the opposition was indeed composed of human beings and that I am thankful to them for queuing up to give me someone to play against.
Comments
Please don't reply to my post with some nonsense about teamwork or tactics Ive played in pvp long enough to know that premades indulge in blowing up pugs and acting the hero(why would they be queuing on public otherwise) , been there done that but Im proud to say I no longer do it. Organized premade pvp should be arranged between fleets/groups of players on the pvp channel(or others),- NOT on the public queues
oh and who came up with shuttle pvp ? which one of you devs thought that was a good idea ?
<rant over>
Not sure you read Nazs blog that closely.
Come and join us in the TD channel / Team speak. Where we do not que at all. Yes the ques are not very well designed and Cryptic has no back end algorithms balancing matches. (that we hope they will implement at some point).
We don't run premades in TD... we create matches to be as balanced as we possibly can. Anyone that comes can start a match... everyone is welcome to use some of the tools that community members have created to do that. (or balanced them completely on there own by hand). The point is we all come to fight... and try to ensure EVERYONE has a great time. Close well balanced matches are fun for everyone involved.
As you rightly pointed out its down to this aspect of the game being poorly designed, hence my frustration when guest blogs appear trying to promote an area of the game which needs a drastic revamp. Many vets and new players alike have been yelling this for well.... forever. But it seems that someone is illiterate in the sto dev team? any dev care to explain ?
I know I'm not a dev... but I'll respond with my thoughts.
There are Devs that do like PvP in STO. I know because I have Pew pewed enough with them to know they enjoy PvP. The issue is the people that control where Cryptic spends its resources are not convinced that if they build it we will come.
TD wasn't started so we could show the devs how much we want more from PvP... however. It does showcase that desire for them. The fact that they have asked one of us to write a guest blog about a player organized effort to forward PvP in STO... does demonstrate that there is some PvP support at Cryptic.
I believe that the more people we get out enjoying PvP with us in TD or in the ques... will help them make a case with in Cryptic to improve the game type in general.
I think we need to convince them that PvP in this game could grow and attract players... and there by attract them revenue. I know that is the case... like many other people I know. I have only stuck with the game as long as I have because I know the base mechanics of this game could build the best PvP game in the industry. I havn't played another PvP game that sucked me in as much as this one has... and that is with out a huge list of things that other games PvP have going for them.
What PvP balance needs is a gear (hidden/shown) rating score that would allow the que system to match pugs closely to each other in similarities to their respective gear score. Neverwinter does this already, why shouldn't STO do it as well?
My personal favorite is that's dull as ditchwater, and largely pointless.
One of those you can fix, and one you can't.
I for one like the challenges of PvP from time to time. What I don't like is that every time someone constructive takes the effort to put together a sound option for folks to try PvP the same half dozen or so come crawling in to to trash it. If it is not your cup of tea then why are you even reading the blog? You are not offering solutions or other viable options as an alternative but just trashing the work and effort that others have put in to make STO a better place for all. I have never used this channel for PvP, but now that I know of it I might go ahead and try it, sure beats PuG'ing it.
If you want to complain, complain to Cryptic for a pi$$ poor queue system. Don't blame players who build quality builds or guest bloggers who provide alternatives to the current archaic system we use.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Umm, no... As nice as this bit of organization sounds, it's all player maintained and thereby relying on the merit of others. If I wanted to join some player group, I'd join an RP fleet, but neither is going to happen. Players are allowed to have legitimate gripes with the current state of PVP, just like you're allowed to enjoy PVP as it stands.
Does Tyler Durden ban Romulans from their queuing system?
All the PvP proponents on here can be found often lamenting the current state of PvP on that section of the forums. With personal feelings like those, aren't you all being somewhat dishonest when attempting to sell PvP to others?
These questions aren't meant to troll, they're genuine questions. I have recently returned to PvPing in Kerrat out of boredom and do have an overall good time (once I learned to accept the vape). But I refuse to join the queues, ever, for reasons that have already been stated.
This group has no leaders... everyone and anyone is welcome to start matches. (and they do). The channel is free to all and is 100% public. The team speak is provided by a kind individual who simply wanted to provide something for others enjoying the game. The Mancom teaming tool isn't required to start matches, it again is just something one a community member threw together in his own time, to help others enjoy the game a little bit more.
You are not required to join anything to come and enjoy some TD matches. Everyone is welcome to come on in and play. You can stay for one match, for hours... return once a month every day or never again. The point is come out and have a good time with PvP. The issues most new players have don't exist in TD matches... you may have fun and make a few friends.
Of course you don't have to do anything. If you have a good time with STOs PvE... and you would rather RP to enjoy your trek... have at it. Whatever it is that floats your boat right.
Nothing specificly is banned... there are no over arching rules for TD. If you want to start a match that doesn't involve romulan toons by all means have at it. If you have 9 other people in TD channel or TS that are willing to start that match I'm sure you will all have a good time. Many people that start matches will ask that people don't bring X or Y... that the majority of people playing in the match find unfun.
Honestly romulans and consoles and all the stuff we complain about have little impact on TD.... because we balance the teams before we start.
Yes some games with have 3-4 romulans playing... if they are all playing the Romulan vape style build that is ok... we balance them out 2 per side... and we make sure if there are a couple engi healers playing they end up one per team... if we have 3-4 science players again we put a couple on either side.
Point being when you balance the sides out so that no one side has 5 guys running one style... and the teams are as balanced as we can make them... very often you end up with scores like 15-14 or close to.
The stuff that we find over powered and badly designed is often not so bad when it isn't being cranked up to 11 by a premade.
Also people that come to TD... will make friends... and they will have a good time. Guess what happens... you run into fewer people loading 5 uni consoles... or doing some of the things that people will say is "cheesy".
I have found that in general if you take the people that run that type of stuff... and force them to TALK to there opponents... and perhaps face the same type of build for a match or two.. they often change to builds that everyone finds more fun.
It is much harder to build complete troll builds when you are playing against people you like and respect.
anyways nice blog naz!
It might be shocking to some, but it takes a player initiative like TD to create fun matches. The more people are in the know about it the better. How cryptic mentally processes the fact that it has driven players to this point, so that they have fun while playing their game I don't know. If you are reading this chances are you should check out TD. Log on no Dino's with lazers and *gasp* fun for all.
A self-maintained world located in neutral territory. The year is 2014. TD is our last best hope for pew in STO.
@ antonio the next vet using the word "potential" when it comes to STO pvp shall be forced to fly a gal-x held by tractor spam facing nothing but scimtards for 8.5 seasons, a skill tree revamp, an economy revamp, one expansion and 666 nights.
As soundtrack i nominate Jorf performing a dramatic reading of mickey's collected chat rants in reverse.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I wish Cryptic would quit wasting time with these blogs when they refuse to address the single biggest problem with pvp. The teams stomping pugs needs to stop if you want to grow pvp. Till that happens it's just going to be what it is. Played by few, enjoyed by few.
I myself am not going to use a channel like Tyler Durden or any other pvp channel when it's got a large population of the very players that have spent so much time ruining the q. Glad you all found a solution to help you enjoy pvp, it's too bad many of you insist on pre making teams and ruining it for others.
I was laughing... and then I got to your last line... and almost had an accident.
There are not premades in TD... I think you have missed the point of TD. Running pug stomping 15-0 teams in the que... is unfun for everyone playing. The stomped and stompers. Join us in TD Team speak... come and meet the evil premade players... and the not as evil pug players. Everyone that playis in TD matches do it as individials.
Everyone is welcome in TD... we don't form teams to go forth and rule the ques... we form teams to duke it out with each other and have a good time. You are welcome to a spot on any of the TD teams playing... or to just hang out and talk about the state of the game. Point is your more then welcome.
we, the pvpers and TD users feel the same way. it would be great if cryptic put some intelligence behind how pug teams are formed in game, but we players got tired of waiting and are doing it ourselves. and this blog is telling you that you dont have to be stuck in the crummy ques, there is an alternative that works.
we have bees stressing over and over again that you wont find premades in TD unless you want to face one, the teams are made as balanced as possible with a 14/15 score at the end being the goal, every time.
So I asked the first question, which incidentally was the only question you answered, as a way to determine what PvP proponents felt the problem was. As someone who looks at a system from the ground up, I feel the biggest problem is an innately more powerful mini faction. Additionally, STO PvP doesn't feel like Trek. Ships with a thousand crew zipping around like a starfighter is plainly absurd, yet the norm in PvP.
The problem you seem to be dealing with is just premades. To combat this, you made a pug service. Further, you seem to want to foster a better PvP community. Not a bad idea overall.
However, there are more problems than just premades and unfun builds. That's why I asked the second question. There is a general lack of balance in PvP. It is my opinion, that without a ground up rebuild, PvP will remain a joke. The latest cheese or OP mini-faction just makes it worse. Why try to sell the band-aid of Tyler Durden at all?
Forgive me, but all these guest blogs try to sell something broken to the masses. And the reason for the continuing evangelism escapes me entirely. There must be a motive I'm unaware of because it should be clear by now that the vast majority, and the devs generally, could care less about PvP. Yet here we are, again.
Edit: Let me state that I do enjoy PvP and I do think the motives of those behind TD are admirable.
I have been lurking the PvP forum for a while (and have posted a few times) and your posts are usually informative and constructive. I must say, though, that you make a real good argument for Tyler Durden in that blog.
I have to confess, I am a member of TOS Veteran's premade team. We usually use Tuesday nights to join up and hit the queues. Of the 6 or 7 matches we get, there is usually only one or two that end in a score of 15-14 and those are the matches we are looking for. We really hate "ROFLStomping" the other team. We also hate teams who use nothing but "Cheese" or "Clicky" consoles with "Vape" scimitars.
We DON'T use "clicky" consoles or "vape" builds (we do usually run two DPS'ers, but I wouldn't call them "Vape" builds). We do use team work and sci powers, though (Sub-Nuke, Grav Well, Sensor Scan). We also run two dedicated healers (myself being one of them) and one dedicated Sci/CC-style build. We try really hard not to be that premade team that ruins the queues. We do try really hard to win, though, using tactics and ship/skill builds. I love it when there is a close margin of victory, win or loose, THAT is what I love in a PvP match. There is nothing like the rush I get from a close well fought match.
All that being said, after reading your blog, I think on my next day off, you might see me in the teamspeak server or the TD chat channel. It sounds like it could be fun and I think I'll give it a try. I hope that your blog attracts others (both PvE'ers and other premade PvP'ers like myself) to give your channel a try.
Qapla'!
Co-Founder of TOS Veterans and TOS Qan Mang
I didn't miss the point at all. I think you missed what I said. I am not going to take part in something that is very much populated by players and fleets that are the very ones ruining the q.
If the running of pug stomping teams was so unfun, then it wouldn't be being done. It's done all the time and those doing it are doing it to stomp the pugs. People have discussed in organized pvp the fact they do it and they have discussed using broken things in a effort to prove how broken things are and to provide the worst possible game to those that they play against.
The q is where your going to get new players to start pvping. Organized pvp is not the place to start to try to get new players. It shouldn't be the starting point for a person to be able to try pvp.
The sad part about this is, STO has really fun pvp. It can be really enjoyable but it's been ruined by the q, which is ruined by the teams that chose to ruin it. These blogs and Cryptic's pushing of pvp is a waste of time until they choose to address the biggest reasons STO pvp is being rejected by the majority of players.
I didn't dig deep into everything you posted as I just felt it more belonged in the PvP subforum. Btw it would be nice to see more of you guys that obviously like PvP (just not the PvP offered here) in that section. More ideas to move PvP forward are good... and Cryptic does read what we talk about in that section. Small changes have been made based on conversations that have teaken place there. I agree we all want much more profound change from Cryptic.
What i Think makes this Blog different from the previous ones (I honestly only remember one other guest blog that really touched on PvP) is that we are not boosting Cryptics system. We are talking about a player setup system with TD. A system where we do try our best to keep the stuff that keeps people out of the ques out of our games. We don't do the premade things.... and it isn't just some Pug Team forming channel either. You see we DO NOT enter the ques.... we talk to each other before the game. We hear what people are running... and then we balance a match when we have 10 people wanting to do one based on what everyone is running. The idea isn't to just put together some teams... the idea is to take 10 people and build the 2 most balanced teams we can... so that everyone has a good time. Yes lots of vet players love it... I enjoy shooting at my friends... and sometimes when the balance calls for it I shoot with them as well. New players love it as well... they get to play on a team... they get to play in a match that is likely going to be close. Some of them even take it as a great way to learn more about PvP... in the end Everyone I know that has tried it out has come away having liked it. A lot come back for more which is why TD has been growing.
I guess I am saying... Pop into the PvP subsection we have plenty of threads talking about what is wrong... and what needs to happen to fix it. Add your voice to existing ideas... or post some of your own. Conversation is great... fun in its own way... and I do hope Cryptic is listening. If enough of us state what we would like to see... there is only more likely that Cryptic will in fact make some changes... Then after you have gotten into that converstaion hit up the TD team speak and hang out with like minded people. Perhaps jump in for a game or two... and in the end share some Trek with some fellow Trekkers.
So you see, since greater than half to three-quarters of the player population hates pvp and will never pvp, that other one-quarter has to be strung along with promises and blogs, giving them the false hope that their cause means something to the devs, and the other players...when in fact the entire segment of STO that is pvp could fall into a black hole, and no one would really notice, except the people who would be relieved that the thing is finally black balled.
hasta la bananas, pvp!
Well perhaps I have misunderstood you...
Let me say though that the people that are in TD all day are not the ones in the Ques all day.... I don't think its possible to be in 2 places at once. We don't have a real life manheim device.
Some people that enjoy TD yes at one time for sure they likely where the guys in the ques.
I can't speak for everyone just myself. I have not been in an actual premade in the ques in ages. Sure I have qued up the odd time with 1-2 friends. No denying that. I have also seen some of the teams out there in the ques.
Trust me the call to Join TD... isn't just a call to New and or Unfleeted players. It is 100% a call to those people as well. I know from experience that when you get those guys in a team speak with everyone else those fleet tags dissolve away. Truth is we are all pretty similer Trek lovers looking to have a good time in a Trek game. We all have more in common then not.
We agree with you about the state of the Que... read my SIG... skip the que... put your fleet tags aside... and come and enjoy the PvP. (Cause we all agree when PvP in STO is good it is very good)
As for Cryptic not boosting PvP... I will say what I am Sure Naz was feeling when he wrote this blog. TD isn't about Cryptic pushing PvP... its about the Players pushing it. We love PvP and we love it so much that we have stopped using Cryptics Ques... we have created a system where we can have better games and have more fun with more people. Naz was given an opportunity by Cryptic to promote TD... Yes he wrote it with the newer players in mind knowing it was going to the front page. People that have been around the PvP community for the last 3 or 4 months have heard myself and many others promoting TD already. The old guard "vet" types have all heard about TD... and yes many of them have been coming... and many of them have been running premades in the ques far less often. You won't find for instance My fleet Sad Pandas in the ques on the weekends often anymore... because most of us that are on are taking part in TD matches. Like Naz says in his blog somehow he managed an entire work day a few weekends ago worth of games. Those where not hours where he was part of any premade in any que anywhere. Pugs everywhere where rejoicing.
the pugstomping teams dont get off on wiping out everyone on the ques, its extremely boring if the other team cant put up a fight. no one enjoys a 1 sided match, these arent bad people and they arent saying GG to be patronizing. thus, the TD channel was created
Yes, thank you! Several of the people I play with on a regular basis will simply drop out for the night if we're rolling too many queues and can't find any premades to play.
And yes, I say GG in the way that kids high-five after youth sport. It's meant to acknowledge that the opposition was indeed composed of human beings and that I am thankful to them for queuing up to give me someone to play against.