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Plasma vs antiproton
alsayyid
Member Posts: 115 Arc User
It seems there is quite the difference in opinion with regards to what will enable one to get higher damage output and in what situations they shine in.
Plasma enables one to have multiple buffs, embassy, amp synergy, and romulan set. However the bonuses are calculated differently. And you must use either the beam array or the torpedo. The torp can be powerful but moves slowly for certain targets. The beam works good for broadsides though, not sure about DHC setup synergy. DoTs do not seem to of much for me when dealing with things that pop very quickly.
Antiproton boost is calculated in a very beneficial way and one can use the beam in the rear. The proc of antiproton becomes better with gear and boffs. However you are locked into the obelisk core.
So what has been used effectively and in what situations? When does Ap win out? When does plasma?
Plasma enables one to have multiple buffs, embassy, amp synergy, and romulan set. However the bonuses are calculated differently. And you must use either the beam array or the torpedo. The torp can be powerful but moves slowly for certain targets. The beam works good for broadsides though, not sure about DHC setup synergy. DoTs do not seem to of much for me when dealing with things that pop very quickly.
Antiproton boost is calculated in a very beneficial way and one can use the beam in the rear. The proc of antiproton becomes better with gear and boffs. However you are locked into the obelisk core.
So what has been used effectively and in what situations? When does Ap win out? When does plasma?
Post edited by alsayyid on
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Not sure why AP can't be used with an [Amp] core. Or why "you are locked into the obelisk core," for that matter. If your power levels are high enough, [Amp] is great, and boost your torp dmg too.
Obelisk warp core's +10% is (oddly enough) based on your 'final' dmg, and not off base-dmg; so that still makes it worthwhile considering. It's otherwise a 'meh' core, though.
As for which is better.... PVE, seems AP would do better. BDUF vs DOT, the mobs die so fast plasma ticks do not last. The built in extra crits yield immediate gratification in a world where immediate is good.
What is unclear is whether the base damage (ignore the dot and crit perks, just the straight up beam dps) can be higher on one or the other either easier (less items or easy to get items or whatever) or if one can significantly outclass the other on normal hits. Someone else will have to answer that, but my suspicion is that both types can reach more or less compatible values with the best setups.
which is, due to the rapid kills, about like asking the disruptor vs AP question instead -- the dots are meaningless to the question anyway. And the answer to that one is: one person in the group should have disruptors, probably.... so I would encourage some folks at least to use the rom plasma or kdf dis builds.
But I cant answer that for an individual, its just nice if one or two in every team use them. Certainly if you have a fixed group that plays together, plan someone to use them.
As an Engineer, with EPS Manifold trait, keeping power levels way high is a breeze. All I fit is a Leech. I have 9/9 in Flow Caps, of course, but on my Escorts (drain boats are a different matter) I don't even use any Embassy Console. So, I don't have to do anything special.
Ob core is always +10%, yes; but always only +10% of AP only: I'd like my Gravimetric Torp to get a little boost too.
Amd a warp core, whist only 1 item, happens to be a very vital one. I couldn't care less about Engines, personally (as long as they fly), but the stats of a warp core often make a serious difference.
There are good reasons all current stf speed records are made using that above mentioned romulan plasma setup, not aux core ap setup. You spam faw scimatars with romulan plasma out of 5 team members, it's a massive amount of debuffs stacked up on everything.
But if you're just using AP...then you wouldn't care about boosting damage you're not doing.
It's one of the reasons I keep saying that folks need to look at their build and their flying style, to see what's best for their build and their flying style.
X might be best in 99% of the cases, but if the player is in that 1%...X isn't going to be best.
edit: Another thing to consider about various gear options, they don't have to be final choices - they're free choices of something to use until you decide on something else. The 2pc Obelisk, the Solanae set, Breen, Jem...various other mission replay gear - it's free gear that can be used in the interim until you decide if you need to upgrade to something else or not. It's not really fair to compare a "free" item to a "P2W" item...c'mon.
I agree that Rom Plas is better, but what is your thoughts on comparing the 10% AP damage bonus compared to the bonus from 2 embassy consoles and the 2 pc rom set bonus?
I remember some of the AP crowd saying the AP 10% bonus is much higher, but to me the 2 embassy console bonus plus the 2 pc bonus is almost as strong as a tac console so just as good if not better, also the flow caps bonus must be helping overcap some, not sure how significant that is though.
the AP 2 piece bonus is almiost twice as powerful as 4 AMP mods
The romulan synergy adds the equivalent of 1 AMP mod
each embassy console adds the equivalent of 1 AMP mod
In order to reach the same bonus damage as the 2 piece AP set, you would need 3-4 embassy consoles and the two piece bonus plasma set, on top of a 4amp sustained core.
Without getting too deeply into the math, the plasma set bonuses and embassy consoles only buff your base damage, whereas the AP set buffs your overall final damage. Ergo - the 3.3 amp mod is really closer to 1.3%, the AP bonus is a real 10%
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Disruptor proc is fundamentally useless in a world of Attack Pattern Beta. Damage resistance debuffs DO suffer from a small diminishing return. Stacking Disruptor debuffs on top of Beta (which in pve is pretty much a given), is pretty worthless. With Beta the damage resistance debuff is high enough that anything further yields insignificant results. Yet oddly enough, the more the debuff, the more amplified is the effect of antiproton.
Plasma dot proc. As previously stated by others in this thread. Everything dies so fast, the proc is effectively worthless. Crit dam, however, certainly makes stuff die fast, without waiting for a stacked effect.
Romulan Plasma. Covered by the above statements. Both procs STILL using a 2.5% chance to proc.
Antiproton. YOU have control over your crit hit, and crit dam. Since the crit dam proc is always on, you can control the entire proc (within the constraints of eq) to buff it to ridiculous levels.
Before someone points out that speed runs (not dps runs, because as such, there is NO SUCH THING IN THIS GAME BECAUSE THERE IS NO OPTIMIAL PLACE TO DO A DPS RUN) are done faster with Rom Plas Scimitars...All I can say is I'm not responsible for someone being too lazy to upgrade their gear.
I must be stupid. I just can't understand how people can look at a 2.5% chance and pick it over something that is always on, and the player basically controls the frequency of the proc through choice.
That "proc" can be gotten on any weapon, its just 1 CrtD mod and many weapons can be found that have more CrtD then AP can hope to get. AP comes with 1 CrtD mod at most, so other weapons with 2 CrtD mods get the same crit, and weapons with 3 get even more. The AP weapons that come with that CrtD mod are Dmg x3 which isn't useful. The AP weapons without a CrtD mod are Acc x2 and Dmg x2, a lot of Acc isn't needed in PVE, acc overflow is weak compared to a CrtD mod.
When I am going for big pve crits I am using weapons with all crit mods, not AP.
Also outside of DPS channel groups, its not a world of attack pattern beta. I often don't swap my boffs on my scimitar after PVP so it may not have apb sometimes, but can still pull 20k-30k dps with PVP build with slow pug groups, the procs make a big difference there, most pugs aren't running beta either or at least not keeping it up constantly.
By using CrtD x2 rom plas weapons, I am critting harder then acc x2 AP weapons, missing only very slightly more, and putting out procs that are useful to the team at the same time, and my consoles boost the damage almost as much as that ap set.
I wouldn't waste my breath. People choose to believe what they want. Reality has no bearing on their mind, and their beliefs so not change reality. Stf time records are all set in 5 Romulan plasma scimis. 5 AP scimis have been tried, and came short of Romulan plasma times by almost a quarter every time.
I wouldn't bother with that fuzzy math either. Saying one amp mod = 9.6% dmg of a plasma console is too transparent even for trolling. His gross overestimation of aux core's 10% is off by a lot even on 5 tac console ships.
Target with 0 positive DRR. Hit them with a -40 DRR APB2, and the DR will be -39.4% (meaning that 139.4% damage is being done). Tack on a -10 DRR Disruptor proc, and the DR will be -48.8% (meaning that 148.8% damage is being done). That Disruptor proc added 9.4% damage (that's final damage, actual final damage - since DR's the last thing that affects damage). So you think that 9.4% additional damage in that case is worthless?
Target with 17.4 positive DRR (equivalent of a rare Mk XI Neut). Hit them with a -40 DRR APB2, and the DR will be -13.8% (meaning that 113.8% damage is being done). Tack on a -10 DRR Disruptor proc, and the DR will be -20.7% (meaning that 120.7% damage is being done). That Disruptor proc added 6.9% damage (again, that's final damage, actual final damage - since DR's still the last thing that affects damage). So you think that 6.9% additional damage in that case is worthless?
2.5% chance? Probability is 16.2% for a single boat with 7 beams. 29.8% for two boats. 41.2% for three boats. 50.8% for four boats. 58.8% for five boats. That's per cycle. 83% probability to land a proc from the five boats with two cycles.
Which is going to apply to all damage being done...vs. the +20% CrtD of AP.
Let's grab a random number, say 1000. It's a simple number, eh? Let's go with a CrtD of say 150%. Let's run it against the two scenarios from above while comparing it to AP...going with Crits and non-Crits.
Disruptor
non-Crit vs. 0 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> -48.8% DR -> 1488 damage
Crit vs. 0 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> 1500 damage -> -48.8% DR -> 2232 damage
non-Crit vs. 17.4 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> -20.7% DR -> 1207 damage
Crit vs. 17.4 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> 1500 damage -> -20.7% DR -> 1810.5 damage
Anti-Proton
non-Crit vs. 0 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> -39.9% DR -> 1399 damage
Crit vs. 0 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> 1700 damage -> -39.9% DR -> 2378.3 damage
non-Crit vs. 17.4 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> -13.8% DR -> 1138 damage
Crit vs. 17.4 initial DRR: 1000 damage -> 1700 damage -> -13.8% DR - > 1934.6 damage
So yeah, I wouldn't just go and say that one is point blank better than the other. If you don't have the folks to maintain the higher probability with the Disruptor proc, then it will be missing more - and - the difference in the non-Crit damage will disappear while the difference in Crit damage will remain. With that group though, until the point that CrtH can be maintained at a percentage where the overall damage done negates the damage lost to non-Crits...AP wouldn't be the superior choice. With another group, AP would be the superior choice. It's not black and white, well it is - but specifically, not generally....
Well, that's the thing - hybrid procs landed at the same time.
For example, Polarized Disruptor - you'd get the Polaron and Disruptor proc at the same time (never one or the other, you'd get both). Thus, it was a case that you could stack all of the hybrid procs together (sure, odds were rough and you could fall asleep running the test alone) - but you could stack multiple hybrid Disruptor procs because they were dual procs.
But then they would change something...and you couldn't. They'd change it again, and you could. The last time I checked was after the changes made to ensure that the Disruptor proc was being resisted by the positive DRR that already existed (it wasn't, making the Disruptor proc too powerful)...after that, they no longer appeared to stack. But it could have just been a case I fell asleep during the testing and thus missed it...lol.
Disruptor breach stacks up to 8 times.
You should take a different approach: Observe reality, then attempt to explain it. Observation comes before hypothesis.
The fact is, this already has been tested to death by people before us. They've not just tried 5x ap and 5x romulan plasma scimis, but also combinations - 4x romulan plasma plus 1x ap, all the way to 1x romulan plasma plus 4x ap. With every additional ap scimi, competition time lengthened slightly. With every additional romulan plasma scimi, it decreased slightly. The highest dps logged was by the one ap scimi that paired with 4x romulan plasma scimis.
Bottom line is, even one romulan plasma boat will improve performance of the team more than an ap boat. Go figure.;)
Two things - I'd asked earlier in the thread what the status of the Disruptor stacking currently was. Cryptic has gone back and forth on that.
There was no hypothesis. So comments on hypothesis are meaningless.
There was the statement that until CrtH reaches a certain point, that the CrtD from AP won't cover the difference created by the single Disruptor proc. There was also the statement that the Disruptor proc was more team friendly in general...
...so er...yeah, really not sure why you felt the need to reply - well, unless you were supporting my explanations of observations.
You suggested that ap may be more effective when its less than full team of romulan plasma, backed up by your calculations of zero disruptor breach stacking. This would contradict reality. So I pointed out that it does stack, which is in line with reality.
Also, of course it does stack, it's been tested. No idea about any statement made by Cryptic, or lack thereof. Frankly, it doesn't matter.
Now when I read about rom plasma scimitars and their impressive out put, I am guessing that this is using full beam arrays and a a2b build?
Let us suppose therefore we are talking about DHC or DBB setups in a front heavy 5/2 or 5/3 ship. Is Rom plasma still performing? I can see how DHC and AP crit severity may mesh well. And what would be used to get the 2pc rom set bonus, the array or the torp? I imagine the torp, but I can be quite wrong. And let us say for a moment we are using fleet plasma instead of rom rep? Does losing that proc wound the setup adversely?
Fell free to educate me on any erroneous thought on my part.
Losing the disruptor proc would be a massive blow. Beam broadsides used in the scimis were using experimental beam array, not the torp.
I would imagine dhc escort would be using torp instead. The romulan torp actually adds more dmg than a fifth dhc in 5 tac console setup, unlike any other torp, if you have 2 copies of torp scatter that spams a massive amount of green balls on the field. They hit borg well enough.
As for romulan plasma ap performance with dhc or dbb, I can only guess. But the beam array scimi setup depends on stacking debuff procs on everything, and everyone hitting everything. If the low arc escorts aren't hitting the same targets, that's benefit not gained from other people's debuffs. It depends a lot on how ppl fly. I'm not sure if it's enough of a difference. I haven't seen any tests on this, so I won't guess.
Estimate?
The concrete math to support my statements is right here O_o
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1021811&page=5
I can also show you flat out via the same method the AMP mod and the AP bonus.
Take any ship with an AMP core, and play with the power settings to give yourself 2 AMP mods, check your tooltip. Now pop a battery and give yourself a third AMP mod and compare the tooltip to the first result. Then take any ship and tooltip both before and after equipping the obelisk set. When you do this, come back and apologize to me.
Do you seriously believe I am a troll on this matter? Dude I do the fricken math and PROVE MY STATEMENTS.
Also, 5 scims have tried the obelisk core? Read that statement carefully because a scimitar cannot even equip it.
The highest DPS person in the game @agrasiel (Mal Reynolds/Hulk) uses Antiproton, and just a couple weeks ago explained ALL of the plasma vs AP stuff to me. So if you are going to quote the DPS record holders, please know your facts first. My DPS scim is now using an AMP singularity + Fleet AP weapons as a direct result of this conversation with Tom. He even gave me this build http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=hulksrecommendation2_0 which has increased my DPS significantly (i was using romplas before)
My contribution is the fact I know that any ship that can run the Obby set + AP should. I WISH i could use the AP set on mine.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Yeah, AP for soloing... If Cryptic ever rolls out single player stfs, let me know. :rolleyes:
Um, no I didn't. I stated that the Disruptor proc was more effective the more folks were running it. I stated that CrtH hasn't reached the point where AP could match the Disruptor proc. I was disagreeing with the guy that said AP was better.
/facepalm
If you'd been following for any period of time, testing for any period of time, you'd know that it has gone back and forth. Actually, what you're stating is something that I've never observed. You're stating that the same Disruptor proc stacks. I've never seen that. I was talking about the various hybrid procs stacking, which has come and gone. The same Disruptor procs always overwrote each other...extending the duration of the Disruptor proc.
And as stated, I pulled the exact date, it was the July 25th patch from last year where I noticed the hybrid procs no longer stacking. It's when I gave up testing for that, because of the going back and forth that took place with it without any patch notes stating there were changes.
Wasn't when I last played though, and I didn't delete my Rom Plas guy until the end of Dec.
Yeah, there were the issues commonly referred to as the "disruptor double proc" - where the proc was significantly increasing the damage of Disruptor damage above and beyond other damage (same going for Plasma with the Rom Plas)...but stacking as you suggest? When did that start?
Along the lines of what noblet said, how much support did Mal have running there - stacking debuffs - to reach that point?
What was the DPS of the other folks in that group?
In the end, the STF is a group endeavor. I know somebody dropped out one of the parses to dropbox at some point, but I can't remember who or which thread...also, is there a recording of such a parse so folks could also watch what's going on, eh?
The amount of damage that has to be done in ISE is pretty much static. It wouldn't take much for some folks to sacrifice some DPS in a support roll of buffing the DPS of another, to inflate the damage of that person. Heck, c'mon - the whole DPS thing is about padding and exploiting various mechanics. Yeah, what's been said about folks should be able to hit 10-20k DPS while half asleep is also true...but the extreme numbers is gimmickry.
Mal's listed at 61.2k, TRIBBLE at 37.3k, NmK at 29.4k, Pov at 27.7k, and Asuna at 11.8k...
Only Asuna was running a Recluse with Elite Weavers (ie, the support person to buff everybody else). NmK was running Tet, while Mal, TRIBBLE, and Pov were running AP. Mal, NmK, and Pov were in Scimitars. NmK should get more credit, but the log doesn't write Tet procs...it speeds things up for folks and thus reduces encounter duration...increasing DPS for the same amount of damage being done.
Mal was sporting ~33.39% CrtH, TRIBBLE 27.391%, NmK 29.212%, Pov 26.413%, and Asuna 6.395%...
Mal was averaging 7.6k damage with AP FAW3. 356 attacks with 33.8% Crit.
TRIBBLE was averaging 5.3k with AP FAW3. 230 attacks with 32.2% Crit.
Pov was averaging 4.5k with AP FAW3. 303 attacks with 28% Crit.
36.3% of Mal's damage was to the two transformers. Actually, it was just to the one transformer. Doesn't show any hits on the other transformer. Mal and Asuna (Elite Weavers) hit the one transformer while the other three took out the other one.
The one trans (vs. 3) took 1169061 damage while Mal and Asuna's trans took 1932746 damage...
If I look at that last log I have from 2/6...
TransA took 847573 damage.
TransB took 879061 damage.
So uh...1932746 damage? Really?
It's just padded damage...bogus damage...exploit damage. Mal and Asuna on one side padding Mal's numbers while the other three took out the other Trans...
The Trans, the Gate...should take zero damage until the Gens and Trans are down.
Important note: the ob AP set CANNOT BE USED on romulan ships because the core is the wrong type. They would have to own the advanced ob carrier to get the other item for the set, which seems far-fetched for most players.
And to an earlier reply:
Yes, its easier for an engineer to keep amp up. And the AP set bonus would still not require clicking anything to get the perk. The engineer clicky has a cooldown ... so if you need it to get AMP, then you have to also have some other button to use so you can alternate cooldowns, A2B or energy siphon or whatever you use for it. Giving up a console (possibly, though leech is good even without amp) and 1, maybe 2 BO skills to feed amp vs using a different core, the core still sounds better to me for an all energy weapon AP build.
There's also an 83k build and log posted in Romulan Flotilla: It's got less padding on the transformer; don't know about the other stuff, I'm not used to digging through these logs.
I should be clear, mind you - padding is still damage being done. It's not imaginary damage or anything, lol...and with there being no tone on the forums (or maybe some coming through because of other things: I'm sick, sinus cold - internet's garbage, they're supposed to be here today - and the awful changes to both the forums and site...those may be coming across while talking about things, but that's outside stuff - not the things themselves...I'm just miserable at the moment, meh)...just wanted to make sure that was clear to folks.
edit: And yep, not only less padding - but more overall damage as well. Interesting, lower crit rate but higher average damage with the AP FAW3. Higher APS as well with the AP FAW3...from 4.811 to 5.484...just better positioning, I'd hazard as an explanation.